The Queens Jazz Trail's New Digital Map

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "The Queens Jazz Trail's New Digital Map"

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guests: Ben Young (Jazz Historian & Scholar), Clyde Bullard (Flushing Town Hall Jazz Producer)
Date: September 17, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the rich, often-overlooked history of jazz in Queens, New York, marking the release of a new interactive digital map of the Queens Jazz Trail. Host Alison Stewart is joined by jazz historian Ben Young and Flushing Town Hall's jazz producer Clyde Bullard to discuss the borough's deep connections to legendary jazz musicians, the origins and impact of the Jazz Trail Map, and the powerful communities these artists helped build.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legendary Jazz Community of Queens

• Neighborhoods of Icons: Alison Stewart introduces the borough as the home of legends including Fats Waller, Count Basie, Lena Horne, John Coltrane, Dizzy Gillespie, Louis Armstrong, Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, and Charles Mingus.

  • “Queens was the stomping ground for the world's most legendary names in jazz.” (01:44)

• Desegregation & Legacy: Many jazz musicians were among the first Black residents in predominantly white neighborhoods in Queens, contributing to desegregation during the 1930s–1960s.

  • “Many helped to desegregate some of the white neighborhoods in the borough.” (01:44)

2. The Origins and Purpose of the Jazz Trail Map

• History of the Map: The Queens Jazz Trail Map was first created in 1998 by Flushing Town Hall and has been recently updated as an interactive digital project for self-guided tours and exploration.

  • “Back in 1998, Flushing Town Hall designed and published a map marking many of the historic jazz sites in Queens... now there's a fully interact digital version.” (01:44–02:44)

• First Jazz Residents: Clarence Williams and Eva Taylor’s home purchase in 1923 was pivotal, sparking the migration of musicians to Queens for its proximity to the New York scene and its rural, idyllic character.

  • “It all began supposedly in 1923 with Clarence Williams and his wife, Eva Taylor... And he knew Louis Armstrong. Louis Armstrong came to visit him and he really like the Queen's feeling because it was very rural.” (03:13 – Clyde Bullard)

Notable Quote:

“Never again should a history book be written about jazz that doesn't include the importance of Queens, because Queens is the one borough in the world that has the most amount of iconic jazz artists that once lived there.”
— Clyde Bullard (Nat Hentoff quote), (05:13)

3. Queens: A Place to Live, Not Just Perform

• Why Not Recognized Earlier: Ben Young notes that Queens was mainly a “bedroom community” for musicians who worked in Manhattan but chose to live and raise families in a more suburban part of the city.

  • “A lot of these cats… would go to work in Manhattan... and then as the sun is coming up, you’re going back to where you crash.” (04:29 – Ben Young)

• Magnetism of Community: The arrival of star musicians like Louis Armstrong increased Queens’ draw for others, creating a hub of creativity and camaraderie rather than performance venues.

  • “With the tumble of James P. Johnson coming out… plus Louis Armstrong moving there in the 40s meant… now you want to be there to rub elbows with people.” (06:18 – Ben Young)

4. Black Musicians and Queens: Breaking Barriers

• Community Dynamics: Many jazz musicians were celebrities and could afford the homes, which sometimes led neighbors to be more accepting (“enamored… to be living near them or adjacent to them”).
  • “I never heard of many problems of any racism or anything happening in Queens… they were more than just the average African American… they were celebrities.” (08:32 – Clyde Bullard)

5. The Jazz Trail Map as Education and Outreach

• Purpose: The original map served to document and publicize Queens’ jazz legacy. Its expanded tours attracted an international audience, with physical tours sometimes culminating in visits to musicians’ homes, like that of famed bassist Milt Hinton.
  • “The map was a way to document and edify that fact... [The tours] were promoted... all over the world.” (09:24 – Clyde Bullard)
  • “Milt Hinton and Mona Hinton always let the entire tour come into their home. He would graciously greet everyone, and he had enough trinkets and buttons that he would give everybody.” (10:50 – Clyde Bullard)

6. Musical Legacies and Neighborhood Lore

• Spotlight on “Palo Alto”: Ben Young details the Queens roots of Lenny Tristano, whose address inspired Lee Konitz’s song “Palo Alto.”

  • “The piano player Lenny Tristano... taught a whole lot of people... He took up a residence in one of the Palo Altos. That's in Hollis. And... Palo Alto is obviously the name of a place in California up near San Francisco. But when Lee Konitz recorded the tune... he's referring to that little spot in Hollis.” (12:01 – Ben Young)

• Count Basie’s Pool Parties: Neighborhood lore includes stories of legendary parties hosted by Count Basie, open to local children, reflecting the communal spirit and accessibility of these jazz legends.

  • “He was very gracious. He would let the children come in, he and his wife Catherine, they would let them swim there. And he was well loved in the block, you know.” (14:28 – Clyde Bullard)

Notable Quote:

“The area was just full of great musicians who, at that time, we didn’t know what indelible marks in history they would leave.”
— Clyde Bullard (14:43)

7. Changing Jazz Landscape (1930s – 1960s)

• Evolution Over Decades: Ben Young observes that initial “pioneers” paved the way for more musicians as the scene grew. By the 1960s, career stability (teaching, steady gigs) enabled more jazz musicians to set down roots in Queens, leading to a community “snowballing.”
  • “You see in the 60s a very robust uptick. In other words, the thing that started as a skeleton in the 30s was just snowballing and it’s really underway by the 1960s.” (19:07 – Ben Young)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “Queens was the stomping ground for the world's most legendary names in jazz.” — Alison Stewart (01:44)
• “Never again should a history book be written about jazz that doesn't include the importance of Queens…” — Clyde Bullard quoting Nat Hentoff (05:13)
• “The map was a way to document and edify that fact.” — Clyde Bullard (09:24)
• “He would graciously greet everyone, and he had enough trinkets and buttons that he would give everybody… [Milt Hinton] was this wonderful, wonderful man...” — Clyde Bullard (10:50)
• “The area was just full of great musicians who, at that time, we didn’t know what indelible marks in history they would leave.” — Clyde Bullard (14:43)
• “You can find jazz all over the world, where you just think 50, 60 years ago, if you were caught playing jazz or practicing jazz in certain universities, you could almost be expelled.” — Clyde Bullard (15:28)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:44: Start of content; introduction to the jazz legacy of Queens
• 03:13: Clyde Bullard explains the origins of the Jazz Trail and Clarence Williams
• 05:13: Importance of Queens in jazz history (Nat Hentoff quote via Clyde)
• 06:18: Ben Young on the “magnetism” of the jazz community
• 08:32: Clyde Bullard on Black musicians as high-profile residents
• 09:24: Purpose and evolution of the Jazz Trail Map and tours
• 12:01: Ben Young describes Lenny Tristano's influence and “Palo Alto”
• 14:28: Count Basie's pool parties and neighborhood camaraderie
• 19:07: Ben Young describes the growth of the jazz community in Queens through the 1960s

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Episode Conclusion

The new interactive Queens Jazz Trail Map serves as both a celebration of, and a resource for, exploring the borough’s pivotal place in jazz history. The stories recounted illuminate how homes, streets, and everyday neighborhoods became the backdrop for a creative revolution. With community activities like Flushing Town Hall’s jazz jams, host Alison Stewart and her guests encourage listeners to engage with this living heritage.

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Find the new online version of the Queens Jazz Trail Map to discover more about the borough’s indelible mark on American music.

Transcript

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[Clyde Bullard]

Listener support WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Queens was the stomping ground for the world's most legendary names in jazz. Fats Waller and Count Basie lived around the corner from each other near Jazz Jamaica, just a few blocks away from Lena Horne and John Coltrane. Dizzy Gillespie was neighbors with Louis Armstrong in Corona. Glenn Miller, Tony Bennett, Billie Holiday, Cannonball Adderley, Ella Fitzgerald and Charles Mingus all once called Queens home, And between the 1930s and 60s, many helped to desegregate some of the white neighborhoods in the borough. Back in 1998, Flushing Town hall designed and published a map marking many of the historic jazz sites in Queens. Last year got a bit of an update and now there's a fully interact digital version of the map that you can now use to plan a walking tour or simply see who might have run into your new neighborhood. So joining me now to talk about the rich history of jazz in Queens, complete with our own soundtrack, by the way, I'd like to welcome jazz historian and Scholar Ben Young.

[Sam (Music Interlude)]

Hi, Ben.

[Singer (Music Interlude)]

Hello.

[Ben Young]

Thank you, Alison.

[Alison Stewart]

And Clyde Bullard, who is Flushing Town Hall's jazz producer. He's been on the show before. Nice to talk to you.

[Clyde Bullard]

Hello. Hey, glad to be here. And you've got the best of both worlds. Ben Young, who's a jazz historian. I'm not a historian. I'm a producer and curator. So you got the best of both worlds from both sides.

[Alison Stewart]

Clyde, what about the history of the Queen jazz trail map? When and how did it come about?

[Clyde Bullard]

Well, according to a narrative that we were given, it all began supposedly in 1923 with Clarence Williams and his wife, Eva Taylor, who had bought a home in Jamaica, Queens, on 108th Street. And they supposedly bought, I think, six adjoining lots. Now, he was a producer and pianist and entrepreneur and from Louisiana. Louisiana. And he knew Louis Armstrong. Louis Armstrong came to visit him and he really liked the Queen's feeling because it was very rural. He eventually relocated there and it brought attention. And many other musicians from other areas of the country started moving into Queens because it was very close to the New York music scene. And of course, when Robert Moses designed the Tribal bridge, it gave it a direct funnel right into 125th Street. Because Harlem at one time was burgeoning and hustling and bustling with jazz everywhere. And that is the early genesis of the Queen's jazz trail.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. Ben, when you give the scope of Queen's contributions to the jazz world.

[Ben Young]

Why.

[Alison Stewart]

Wasn'T the borough particularly recognized for those contributions?

[Interviewer/Host]

When you think about it, that's an interesting.

[Clyde Bullard]

Go ahead, Ben.

[Ben Young]

Yeah, sorry. I think it's because, at least partly because the work wasn't there. It was where people lived. So that phrase bedroom community. So a lot of these cats, just like Clive was saying, that you'd go to work in Manhattan, whether it's uptown or downtown. And then as the sun is coming up, 3, 4, 5 in the morning, whatever, you're going back to where you crash and have a family, whatever, whatever else. So, I mean, I think there's a lot of that in Queens in general, that it's a place where people live more than it's a place where all the action is, no offense to the Mets, maybe long wave and so on. But you know what? The performance part is different from where people.

[Clyde Bullard]

I want to say, also NEA Jazz master Nat Hentoff, who was the co creator and founder of the Village Voice, he said never again should a history book be written about jazz that doesn't include the importance of Queens, because Queens is the one borough in the world that has the most amount of iconic jazz artists that once lived there.

[Ben Young]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. I want to get back to Clarence Williams. He was a producer. He moved the Queens neighborhood of Bricktown southeast of Jamaica in 1923. Ben, I want to ask you what Clarence saw in Queens. Why do you think this would be a good place for jazz musicians to congregate?

[Ben Young]

Well, I think for starters, it was a place for him to congregate. You know, the thing that Clarence Williams had in music probably is related to what he had as a neighbor, which is magnetism that he was going to drop the word on his colleagues. James P. Johnson moved out a little bit later in the 20th century to take one of those spots right next to Clarence Williams. And these are. These are 100 years ago names, but they still show up in a lot of composer credits for songs that people know. And the. The issue for Clarence Williams was he's a person who likes to make things happen in music and also a bit of a magnate. So this idea that he buys up a bunch of lots, he knows better than a lot of other people know. This city's only growing. If you make the investment now, it'll pay off for you later. Whether you get started, if things go bad, you can start a farm. If things go good, you can sell it to your friend or sell it for big money later. So then I think with the tumble of James P. Johnson coming out was sort of. This is relying a little bit on Phil Shapp's history. And of course, he was born and raised in Queens, or grew up in Queens at least, and saw a lot of this happening. And as he would say it, that new magnetism plus Louis Armstrong moving there in the 40s meant like, wow, suddenly now you want to be there to rub elbows with people in addition to the simplicity of it being a great good idea.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, here, let's hear a little bit of Clarence Williams. Here he is singing with pianist James P. Johnson. This is yous don't understand, recorded in 1929.

[Singer (Music Interlude)]

It makes me grieve when you turn me away But I know, dear that you don't understand. My little baby, you won't believe anything that I say I'm sorry that you don't understand. Open up your heart Let me in your heart I'm pleading no one else will do. Cause it's only you I'm leading My faith you hold and my love's in your hand. But I know there that you don't understand.

[Alison Stewart]

You know. An article in Queens, Clyde noted that these Musicians were usually among the first black people to live in these neighborhoods. Tell us a little bit about that. Was that difficult for them? Were they famous enough that people looked the other way? Tell us a little more.

[Clyde Bullard]

Well, by the time that musicians were able to afford to live in Addersley park or buy homes in Queens, they were probably moderately or well known, so they could afford it. So they were more than just the average African American or Negro, as they called them at that time. People, they were celebrities. And so people were probably very enamored to be living near them or adjacent to them. So I don't think that I never heard of many problems of any racism or anything happening in Queens or Addistate Park.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, you can see on the map where people lived. And back in 1980, 1998, when it was first printed. Ben, when it first came out originally, tell us, what was the purpose of the map and how were the original designers hoping people would use the map?

[Clyde Bullard]

Well, the purpose of the map was to illuminate and to make it known to people that might not have known, and many do not know and didn't know that Queens was such a burgeoning place where all these jazz artists had lived who had given so much music and happiness and joy to the world. And so the map was a way to document and edify that fact. It was later used to help formulate the Queen's Jazz Trail Tour, which I had presided over and administered for Flushing town Hall for seven years now. In 2004, the Queens Jazz Trail Tour won the best jazz tour in New York City, which was really great when you think of the enormity was happening. Fletching Town hall had partnered with a company called NYSE & Company, which is not in existence anymore. NYC & Company had offices all over the world, and so people start their vacations where they live. And so they were promoting the Queen's Astro Tour on airplanes and as well as in their offices. So we were getting people that wanted to take the tour from Switzerland, Germany, Paris, London, England. And so we would do the tours on Saturdays. It was $20. And Flushington @ the time had a trolley. And so people would get on the trolley and we would take them on. The tour was partially on the bus, but then when we got to Addersley park, people would get off the bus and be led by the tour guide, a man named Kobe Knight or Boysychenko. We couldn't go in the homes, actually, because you had new residents living in those homes. But Milt Hinton and Mona Hinton always Let the entire tour come into their home. He would graciously greet everyone, and he had enough trinkets and buttons that he would give everybody. We usually have 20, 25 people, maybe 30 people. So Milt Hinton was very, very, you know, gracious. And of course, he's one of the major bass players in the jazz vernacular. They called him the Judge. The Judge because, I mean, you know, he was this wonderful, wonderful man, you know.

[Interviewer/Host]

Ben, you wanted to spotlight the song Palo Alto performed by Lee Konitz. Can you set this up? Can you tell us about the Queen's root of this song?

[Ben Young]

Yeah, a little bit. The piano player Lenny Tristano we talk about now probably as much for his pedagogy as for his piano playing. He taught a whole lot of people and sort of was a 20th century guru, I guess, who had a great system for making good jazz musicians into great jazz musicians and also for starting a lot of people from scratch. And he took up a residence in one of the Palo Altos. That's in Hollis. And I've gotten lost myself looking for these. I believe there is a Palo Alto street that maybe is a few blocks over from the other Palo Alto. And one of your listeners probably will call in and say, I know what he's talking about, but Palo Alto is obviously the name of a place in California up near San Francisco. But when Lee Konitz recorded the tune, based on his experience of being a student of Lenny Trist and going out to Palo Alto street, he's referring to that little spot in Hollis.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let's hear Palo Alto.

[Sam (Music Interlude)]

Sam.

[Alison Stewart]

My guests are Clyde Bullard and Ben Young. We are talking about the Queen Jazz Trail Map, which is now online, an interactive version available to everyone to show you how much jazz history took place in Queens. And we have our soundtrack to match. All right, I read somewhere about Count Basie's quote, unquote, renowned pool parties. Do you know anything about him?

[Clyde Bullard]

I never met him, unfortunately. But our tour guide, Kobe or Jake, Kobe Knight, he used to allegedly go into his pool. He was very gracious. He would let the children come in, he and his wife Catherine, they would let them swim there. And he was well loved in the block, you know. And then you go around the corner two or three blocks from him. Here you have Fats Waller, and you go around the other way, you have Milt Hinton. And a few blocks from Milton Hinton, you have Mercer, Ellington. The area was just full of great musicians who, at that time, we didn't know what indelible marks in history they would Leave. You know, as far as jazz history, you know, and according to HR 57, House of Representatives, Bill 57, jazz music is the indigenous music for America.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's listen to.

[Clyde Bullard]

Very well respected and should always be preserved and probably will never die because the music is now ubiquitous. You can, you can find jazz all over the world, where you just think 50, 60 years ago, if you were caught playing jazz or practicing jazz in certain universities, you could almost be expelled. And now jazz has now featured featured courses all over the world and especially America.

[Alison Stewart]

Let's hear another piece of music from.

[Interviewer/Host]

A couple of Queens residents. Here's Count Basie and Ella Fitzgerald. Ain't misbehavin'.

[Singer (Music Interlude)]

No one to talk with.

[Sam (Music Interlude)]

All by myself no one to walk with But I'm happy on the shelf Ain't misbehaving I'm saving my love for. For you I know for certain the one I love I'm through it flirting it's just you I'm thinking of Ain't misbehaving Saving my love for. You.

[Interviewer/Host]

Have to let Ella finish there. Ben between the 30 years, between the 30s and the 60s, how did the scene change in Queens? Because we know it's sort of a lot of these folks either relocated or passed away. But between the 30s and the 60s, what was the scene?

[Ben Young]

Well, that's a great question, and I have to confess, I don't go back to either of those decades expressly, but to give you a sort of view from the street. But there's a difference between the sort of pioneering. Actually, people study this in sociology courses, that there's a pioneering layer where somebody takes a stand, goes someplace, and then there's a real support that's indicated by the second person to take up the same mission and say, okay, Clark Terry is going to go out and live where Louis Armstrong lived. And then suddenly, now somebody who was an outlier, there's a movement coming on. And this is a pretty, not really a finite way of answering your question, Allison, but it's. It's a part of that same dynamic that as soon as your friends live there and can vouch that this is a comfortable place to live. And, oh, by the way, you get to, you know, sneak into Count Basie's pool parties over here, then there's enough momentum to keep it going. So, in fact, in doing the revision for, for the latest version of the Queen's Jazz Trail map and the online edition of it, we spent a lot of time with AFM Books, the American Federation of Musicians, the union that employs musicians, basically just going through it, leafing through it piece by piece to look for jazz players in among all the other players. And in the 60s is when you start to see this bump of a sort of new plateau of folks who either were just making it, which is true for a lot of jazz in the 60s it was sort of starting to tail off. But there were folks who had a foothold, were able to say I have work in the theaters or I have work in show business in some other place, or I have a job as a teacher that can supplement my jazz activity that they were able to then become homesteaders in Queens. So you see in the 60s a very robust uptick. In other words, the thing that started as a skeleton in the 30s was just snowballing and it's really underway by the 1960s.

[Alison Stewart]

The Queens Jazz Trail Map is available online. An interactive version is available for everyone to show just how much jazz history took place in Queens. My guests have been Clyde Bullard Fuller, Town Hall's jazz producer. By the way, they hold monthly jazz jams, the next one being held on October 9th for all you folks who are into jazz and into Queens, and also Ben Young, jazz historian and and scholar. Thank you so much for both of you for joining us.

[Clyde Bullard]

Thank you for having us.

[Ben Young]

Thanks Alison and check out the site.

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