← All Of It with Alison Stewart
All Of It with Alison Stewart
The Rise of Choreographer Kyle Abraham
00:18:55
Choreographer Kyle Abraham's first collaboration with the New York City Ballet was in 2018.
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Alison Stewart
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us on the Today Show. Mixologist Nicholas Hamilton will be here to share cocktail recipes from his new book, Sipsy Doozy. As the weather heats up, so do our local farmers markets. We'll speak with Grow NYC's Liz Carollo about what makes them special, and we want to know what you think makes markets special. Plus, across the city, New Yorkers are lining up to wait for everything from baked goods to sample sales. We'll speak with New York Times reporter Matt Yahn about why there seem be lines everywhere and why we want to know, what do you think is worth standing in line for? That's the plan. So let's get this started with choreographer Kyle Abraham in the midst of the COVID Pandemic, choreographer and dancer Kyle Abraham spent three weeks in a bubble residency upstairs with eight dancers from the New York City Ballet. The goal was to create a dance that reflected the isolation they were feeling because they couldn't perform live. The piece was made into a film. The 15 minute piece, entitled When We Fell, was shot in black and white in the empty David Koch Auditorium, which normally serves as the home of the New York City Ballet. It premiered online in 2021. This weekend, it will be performed for the first time live on stage as part of New York City's ballet program. It's one of the many works Abraham has shepherded in recent years. Earlier this month, his own company, aim, had a string of shows at the Joyce Theatre. And last fall, Abraham's premiere piece, mercurial Son, was labeled a triumph by the New York Times. Joining me now to discuss the premiere as well as his journey through dance is Kyle Abraham. It is really nice to meet you.
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Kyle Abraham
Oh, wonderful to meet you.
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Alison Stewart
So I read when you were a kid that you didn't really start in ballet class, you learned to dance through hip hop.
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Kyle Abraham
Yeah, more or less. I have an older sister who's five years older than me and you know, she would teach me all the dances of that time, the prep, the Roger Rabbit, you know, all the things that run a man, the Dougie. Yeah.
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Alison Stewart
So when you were learning to Dance. When you discovered I have a talent for this, when did you decide it would be your career? It would be what you would aspire to?
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Kyle Abraham
You know, for whatever reason, I think I always thought that I was going to be involved with dance. Even before I knew what a choreographer was, I was like, I'm gonna be a choreographer. I was going to church camp and making dances to bel Biv DeVoe's song Poison. Not the dance that you want to be doing at church camp, but, you know, it was my first performance. Got kicked out of Catholic school for dancing in my penny loafers. So I think it just was always in there. But seeing the Joffrey Ballet perform to Prince's music in a program called billboards back in 90, probably 93, 94, I believe that would have been. That's when I was like, oh, my God. My eyes are open to so many different possibilities of movement, and I want to learn more about those.
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Alison Stewart
Who did you look up to? What dancers just did you admire?
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Kyle Abraham
Oh, Lord. You know, I think when I first started, Bill T. Jones Co. Came to my high school in Pittsburgh at Kappa the Creative and Performing Arts High School in Pittsburgh, and they did a lecture, demonstration, and seeing a dancer, Arthur Aviles, just really blew my mind. He just not only was so profoundly confident in the way that he spoke about himself and the way that he talked about movement, but just seeing the way that he moved with such athleticism just really inspired me and got me really excited about dance.
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Alison Stewart
Oh, that's interesting. The athleticism appealed to you.
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Kyle Abraham
Yeah, I think, you know, probably a lot of it had to do with the work that they were doing at that time. A work called Still Here, which is a very pivotal work for the Bill T. Jones Company and for dance in general. But knowing that a lot of that source material had to do with, you know, someone's story, who had to take. Sorry, that was thinking about, like, sports. A lot of gestures and movements were coming from ideas of playing sports, I think, as a young kid.
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Alison Stewart
My guest is choreographer Kyle Abraham, who's premiering his work When We Fell tomorrow at the New York City Ballet at Lincoln Center. You've described your style as postmodern gumbo. All right, so what are the ingredients?
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Kyle Abraham
Well, you know, I always say the roux is in social dance. So by social dance, I'm thinking about, you know, my experience growing up going to hip hop parties and house parties and being heavily involved in the rave scene. And then from there, that postmodern part is really the experimentation. As someone who loves a Lot of choreographers like Trisha Brown or Merce Cunningham, and you see the experimentation in their work. And I love trying to kind of flip that in a way, in the same way that in the ballet world you see someone like George Balanchine and the massive impact he's had on dance and ballet in particular.
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Alison Stewart
Let's talk about When We Fell. The film you made in 2021. It aired digitally. How did this collaboration come about?
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Kyle Abraham
Well, this was maybe my, in some ways, second to third project with City Ballet. I did a work for stage for them called the Runaway, which premiered in 2018. And I was set to make another stage work for them leading up to 2020. And they reached out to me to make a film which was, you know, I didn't really know what I was gonna do per se, but, you know, if you give me some space and you give me some dancers, I'm gonna make something.
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Alison Stewart
Well, it's actually. It's kind of sparse. The dancers are in flesh colored body suits. Why did you want it to be so stark? Visually?
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Kyle Abraham
I think maybe some of that had to do with the music. You know, I was really interested in, really piano. I think a lot of my connection with ballet in a lot of ways has to do with piano. Whenever you take a ballet class, it's generally with a live accompaniment of someone playing piano. And I love a lot of the Balanchine works that are set to piano. And so for me, I don't know if you watch Top Chef or your audience are Top Chef fans, but I always think about those things where people say, okay, I'm going to treat, you know, mushrooms three ways. And I thought about doing that with piano. How can you bring in Morton Feldman, Jason Moran, Nico Muhli? All very different.
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Alison Stewart
Heard of him.
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Kyle Abraham
Yeah, right. All very different composers who treat the piano in very different ways. And there was something about the beauty and simplicity of the way that you hear that Feldman music in particular, that made me think about just how can we see the body? How can we play with time? And I felt like you could do that, especially in that black and white film with those nude kind of costumes.
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Alison Stewart
Did you have to practice social distancing? It seemed sort of intentional. But maybe that was just your plan.
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Kyle Abraham
Well, you know, I think at that time. So the whole kind of premise of a bubble residency is to have people kind of working in close proximity over a period of time knowing that they can't or shouldn't be interacting with anyone else before or during that time. And so we were able to have some Touch in there. There are some really fun, kind of cheeky moments where we have dancers jumping in really kind of crazy ways, what we call petite allegro. But they're doing a lot of different kind of hand movements, kind of grabbing each other's hands in different ways that are really kind of fun and ridiculous.
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Alison Stewart
Ridiculous? Why do you say ridiculous?
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Kyle Abraham
I mean, I think ideally, a lot of the works that I make, yes, there might be a lot of emotion that comes into play, but joy needs to be one of them. And you need to have a little bit of levity, too. So as someone who was never good at petite allegro, it's nice to find these moments of humor. And for me, especially at New York City Ballet, where the dancers are so articulately sound, especially with their legs, I wanted to think about how I could make it that much more difficult for.
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Alison Stewart
Them just to interject some humor into it.
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Kyle Abraham
Yeah, we gotta have fun.
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Alison Stewart
Some reality of it, too, sort of that this is real life, that you're watching beautiful dance, but it's also real life.
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Kyle Abraham
It's real life. And, you know, we all know that statement that has to come up every five minutes in these times. We're living in. In these times. So we need the levity at times. Yeah. And the reality I wanted to ask.
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Alison Stewart
About in the film, there are sounds of snow and rain. What's the story behind that?
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Kyle Abraham
Well, I. So I teach in Los Angeles in the wintertime. Somehow that lucked out. But, you know, this was my first time spending the winter in New York in a very long time. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, originally, so we know I've experienced a winter, too. But there was something about being in New York in the winter and during the pandemic that really made me kind of fall in love with the season again and with the beauty of snow. I can be a pretty melancholic person in a lot of ways. And I think, you know, as someone who listens to the Smiths, I could just kind of, you know, listen to some Morrissey and watch the snow fall. You know, there's just so much poetry in snow, and I wanted to kind of find ways to bring that forward in the film.
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Alison Stewart
I bet you made really good mixtapes.
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Kyle Abraham
Yeah.
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Alison Stewart
When you were a kid.
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Kyle Abraham
I still make them. I was listening to your intro music, and I was like, oh, this beat is nice.
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Alison Stewart
Oh, luscious Jackson.
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Kyle Abraham
There you go. Oh, yes, yes, yes, love.
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Alison Stewart
How do you go about adapting something that was for film? When we fell to a live audience, what elements had to change, if any?
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Kyle Abraham
Well, you know, I worked really closely with the rehearsal director, Rebecca Crone, former principal dancer at New York City Ballet, currently repetitor and rehearsal director at New York City Ballet. And she's just amazing. You know, she really kind of helped not only help me recast the work, but also get it up and running, you know, when I'm on tour or teaching at different universities. So I work really closely with her, talking about how we wanted to approach the differences from the stage version and the film version, and a lot of it. There's a lot of similarities, but there's things that you wouldn't have seen on the film, like how did people get onto the stage or into whatever space we used in the film? How can we really play with proximity in a way that doesn't always resonate with film? So that was a big part of it in a lot of ways. But also introducing other ideas around lighting design and now costume design.
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Alison Stewart
Oh, I bet.
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Kyle Abraham
Yeah. So it's been really. It's been really fun and exciting and interesting.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah. You've created pieces for New York City Ballet, American Ballet Theater. Paul Taylor. What do you look for in. In a collaborative condition? What do you look for in a collaborator?
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Kyle Abraham
Well, you know, one of the many things is vulnerability. Right. Like, you want to work with dancers and collaborators who are not only open to trying new things, but they will access that vulnerability that I also have to be accountable for myself. To make the most honest work, I need to be able to be open and be vulnerable with my collaborators, and I'm going to need that back from them as well.
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Alison Stewart
What does it look like when someone's not vulnerable?
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Kyle Abraham
Oh, that can be tricky.
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Alison Stewart
Is it someone who won't listen to you? Is it someone who won't? I'm just curious what that looks like.
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Kyle Abraham
You know, I think in all aspects of life, we see friends, family, co workers who do a thing. They know they're good at the thing, and they don't want to go beyond the thing. And you need to have that amount of kind of humility, let alone vulnerability, to find that danger and know that you're in a safe space. So you can take these risks and challenges, but sometimes, yeah, you can be met with resistance. You know, you should give someone a feedback of saying, oh, you know, can you try doing that softer or take a little bit more time with this movement? And like, I did that. I don't want those people in the room. Luckily, I do not and have not had those people in the room with me. I've had really, really open and beautiful collaborators.
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Alison Stewart
So you really haven't had to have had that to deal with.
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Kyle Abraham
No, not in more recent times. There definitely have been some of those in my history.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah, like, how do you draw someone out who is in that space? Maybe that's who they are, but maybe they need to feel like they can be themselves or try something new. I don't know.
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Kyle Abraham
No, I feel you. I think a lot of it is trying again, a little bit levity. Right. I think the most serious person you gotta find. Everybody has some sense of humor. And I love it all. I love a dry, dry sense of humor. I love the slapstick. I love all of it. And it's really finding the ways to kind of crack someone open in a supportive way, to really kind of see that eye to eye and just kind of find our rhythm. Because ultimately, I think people have to just know that, especially my job as a choreographer is to make you look your absolute best. And I tell that to collaborators. I'll ask them, especially in a ballet space, what line do you prefer? Do you want to have your leg crossed or do you want to have it open? Do you want the leg towards the audience or away from the audience? Which way are you going to feel the most empowered?
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Alison Stewart
My guest is choreographer Kyle Abraham. You have your own company. AIM Abraham in motion. When you think about the company's mission, what is it?
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Kyle Abraham
You know, one of the biggest things, I guess I would say about our mission is to make sure that there is a conversation that represents not only where I'm coming from, but in a way that we can talk about my black queer identity in a way that doesn't make anyone feel unwanted, but makes all of us feel celebrated. And in a space where people can listen to each other, hear each other, but also celebrate my history and the histories that helped me to get to where I am today.
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Alison Stewart
What do you look for in a dancer, for someone in your company?
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Kyle Abraham
Yeah, a lot of it is still that openness. You know, a lot of, you know, as we talked about that idea of a post modern gumbo before, I'm interested in all of these different ingredients and textures. I want people who know Merce Cunningham and Martha Graham and people of my generation like a Faye Driscol and, you know, these other ballet choreographers and dancers like a Tyler Peck from New York City Ballet. I want them to know all that. And if they don't know those names, I want them to be curious and want them to want to find out more about them.
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Alison Stewart
Do you have something that is very. That's unique to your choreography that if I saw it, I'd be like, mm, that's Abraham move.
- [15:10]
Kyle Abraham
Oh, my God. I mean, we definitely have these names of phrases and things that we do. We even have a move we call Beyonce. We have lots of moves that we kind of try and personalize in some way, but hopefully you can always see my heart and these ideas of kind of connection to kind of self in some way in the work. There's always a little bit of romance in there too, I think.
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Alison Stewart
What does Beyonce look like?
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Kyle Abraham
Ooh, I would show you, but your audience would see.
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Alison Stewart
Okay. I read somewhere.
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Kyle Abraham
It'S luscious.
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Alison Stewart
Okay, that's fair. That's fair that in the past you've dealt with stage fright.
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Kyle Abraham
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
Is that still something you struggle with?
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Kyle Abraham
Oh, my God. Yes, indeed. Yeah. It's a little bit of performance to not allow myself to kind of listen to that inner saboteur, as RuPaul would say. You know, I have to really believe in myself, you know, as someone who. Not to tangent us, but someone who practices a lot of yoga. There's a lot of postures that I have to just believe I can do to do, and if I find that self doubt, I fall out of them. And the same thing is true with public speaking and with dancing on stage. It can be really debilitating in some ways.
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Alison Stewart
How do you get through it?
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Kyle Abraham
I try my best to just focus and I don't even know, like, even just trying to think about it now, like, ooh. But it's trying to be as centered as possible and know that whatever space I'm in, someone put me there because they believe in me. Granted, I have to remember that, like, my parents put me somewhere on this earth and they believed in me. Even though they're no longer with me, they are always in my spirit and hopefully leading me forward in a positive way.
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Alison Stewart
I wanted to ask you about in these times. We talked about this. In these times. We're in a moment when DEI is under attack and creative people and people of color are under attack. What keeps you motivated during these uncertain times?
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Kyle Abraham
I like dead air silence. I think it's that I don't know these. I don't know, times to have been. But so different, especially for me as a black queer person, you know, I think some of the negativity, the hatred, et cetera, was maybe. I don't even know if it was louder then or louder now. I think with social media and the things like that, I think the way that we are experiencing a lot of that Darkness is in new ways. But I think a lot of the disappointment and challenge and struggle that a lot of us have had to face is not new. I think we have always had to be creative around how we deal with hardships and how we can persevere.
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Alison Stewart
Where do you go to find joy?
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Kyle Abraham
Oh, my God. I go everywhere. But what? I just. I just saw some dance just the other day. I go to the theater. I saw a friend of mine, Anna Sperber's show with the Chocolate Factory recently. It was really beautiful performance. I go to New York City Ballet. Yeah. I go to museums. Yeah. There's a beautiful Amy Sherrill exhibition going on right now.
- [18:19]
Alison Stewart
The Whitney took my son for Mother's Day.
- [18:22]
Kyle Abraham
Right.
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Alison Stewart
He took me, I should say. Are you working on anything? Anything new and exciting that we should know about?
- [18:28]
Kyle Abraham
Yes. Oh, my God. There's so many things. So aside from When We Fell premiering at New York city ballet, there's aim. My company's getting ready for its 20th anniversary season, you know, and I'm, what, 25 myself?
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Alison Stewart
What the children do.
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Kyle Abraham
Yeah. So, yeah, we're getting ready for that. There's a lot of exciting things to come from that, a lot of international touring. I have some new works that people will hear about premiering in 2026 and 27. But right now it's really focused on When We Fell and then just kind of getting back in the lab with my company to build and create and honor some of our history.
- [19:06]
Alison Stewart
When We Fell premieres tomorrow at the New York City Ballet at Lincoln Center. My guest has been choreographer Kyle Abraham. Nice to meet you.
- [19:14]
Kyle Abraham
Wonderful to meet you.
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