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- [00:08]
A
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here on the show. Today, Latin Grammy award nominee Silvana Estrada joins us for a live performance in WNYC Studio 5. And and the images from photographer Pamela Hansen's camera helped define the supermodel era. She's compiled some of them in her new book titled the 90s, and she joins us to discuss. Plus, we will preview an event happening this weekend about the history of movie music and will play some of the most iconic film scores. That's our plan. So let's do the time warp again. Today is the 50th anniversary of the release of the the film the Rocky Horror Picture Show. It was released on September 26, 1975, and it was a flop, which was strange after a huge showing on the London stage. It took a cult following of people young, old, queer, straight and those who loved the theater to turn it into a piece of pop culture legend. It's the story of a naive couple who stumble upon a party being held in a castle where they meet a scientist, an alien from the planet Transsexual, who has developed a hunk named Rocky for his pleasure. Rocky Horror came from the mind of Richard o', Brien, who wrote and performed the hunchback riff raff in the original show. And in the film, his son, director Linus o', Brien takes the lead as the director of the documentary Strange the Story of Rocky Horror. He was able to talk to the original creators of the stage show, director Jim Sherman, musical director Richard Hartley, costume designer Sue Blaine, and star Kim Curry, as well as actors from the film, Susan Sarandon, Barry Bostwick, Patricia Quinn, and even Peter Hinwood. A review in the Hollywood Reporter said it is an absolute blessing to be getting this examination of the Rocky Horror phenomenon at this particular moment in time. Strange Journey, the story of Rocky Horror, is in theaters now. You can catch it at the Village East Angelica or at the Claridge in Montclair or at the Picture show in Bronxville. Director Linus o' Brien joins us now. It is nice to meet you.
- [02:25]
B
It's lovely to be here. Thank you very much for having me.
- [02:27]
A
Listeners, we want to hear from you. Tell us your Rocky Horror Picture show journ. What did you dress up as? What did you bring to the show? Why did this movie have meaning for you? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433 wnyc. So, Linus, when you were a kid, when did you realize what your father did for a living?
- [02:54]
B
It's, it's, it's a. It's hard to think of because he, because, you know, he was acting, you know, way before I was born. My earliest memory of seeing Rocky for time was when I was 4 years old at the Isoldo Theater. In the original stage production, they let me control the lights around the proscenium with this flick of the switch, which I was very enamored with. But yeah, just, you know, just always kind of, you know, that was his day job. Right. So that's all I knew. And yeah, we just. It would, I guess it would be clear when I, I went to visit the set of Flash Gordon that he was in and, you know, meet the actors there. So there were various moments where it would become clear what he was doing, but it was never, never strange to me because that's all I knew.
- [03:43]
A
When did he start writing Rocky Horror?
- [03:46]
B
He. Well, the thing is he. He got fired from the role of Herod in Jesus Christ Superstar after three performances and was out of work. And then he got an offer to perform at the EMI Christmas party. So he wrote science fiction double feature for that party. And then he thought, well, that would be. Might make a good basis for a rock and roll musical that he would like to see. So he started writing those songs and that was it. He was off to the races.
- [04:16]
A
You decided to make the documentary knowing that this anniversary was coming up when you sat down to talk to your father about Rocky Horror. First of all, what was it like to talk to your father in a documentary format? It's interesting.
- [04:30]
B
Yeah, it was, it was lovely, you know, because I, I'd heard all the stories before, but it was great to get them, you know, on tape. That was the challenge, right, because I'd grown up around, around all the stories, so, so getting them on tape so we could. So everyone could hear the stories that I'd heard for so many years. But yeah, it was great connecting with him. You know, the, the film is also about his personal journey, about how it took him 30 years after making Rocky to kind of finally free, be free to, to let himself know and us and our family know that he felt 70% male and 30% female. So to, to get glimpses of that into, into his journey was, was equally as important as, as the story of Rocky Horror for me personally.
- [05:19]
A
What did you learn about your father as a creative person during these interviews?
- [05:27]
B
I don't know if I learned anything new during the filming, but he's just always been a tremendously creative person. Even now he's 83, but he's always. He's still writing poems and writing songs and playing the guitar and. And drawing pictures and painting throughout the day. He. He's a very creative person and that just comes through in. In all aspects of his lives.
- [05:49]
A
It was very important for you to be in the documentary a little bit. Documentaries don't. Documentarians don't like to be in their documentaries, but it was important for you to be in the documentary. Why was that?
- [06:00]
B
Well, it's interesting because we didn't know when we started out, my creative team and myself, like, how much to feature of myself in there. But then it became clear that it would be nice and even very heartfelt to have myself be in it just a little bit. You don't want to overdo it. So we just found little moments here and there to kind of introduce me, have me present, but also be in the background.
- [06:27]
A
As your father was writing this, was he trying to be provocative?
- [06:34]
B
I don't think so. He really just wanted to have fun. And I think that's one of the. One of the great strengths of Rocky is that it doesn't try to bang you overhead with a message. You know, there's lots of interesting, you know, transgressive themes within it, but it was never, never trying to. To tell you how to think or how to feel. And I think the fans of Rocky over the last 50 years have. Have just taken some of those. Those messages that they. They found in there, especially Don't Dream It Be it and kind of. Kind of use that to kind of find each other, really. I think at the end of the day, Rocky boils down. The legacy of Rocky boils down to two key words, and that's community and connection. And I think Rocky has. Has provided that for. For millions of people. Three generations of Rocky fans over the last 50 years.
- [07:28]
A
When you sought out the people who wanted, you wanted in the film, first of all, was anybody reticent about being in the film?
- [07:34]
B
No, no one at all. It was. Everyone was very happy to be on board. And I think my personal connection to. To the cast and crew, especially when I was younger, made everything, you know, quite easy.
- [07:47]
A
Was there something that they wanted to say about Rocky Horror or something they wanted to set straight about Rocky Horror? Sometimes you sit down to do an interview, but you know that the person you're talking to has something that they want to say, right?
- [08:00]
B
Yeah, I think it was Just very important. And to. To all of the cast and the crew and myself and the people behind the scenes to really highlight the way that Rocky has tangibly saved hundreds of thousands of lives. People might think I'm being braggadocious or something about it, but. But I couldn't be. That couldn't be less true. There was a gentleman who came up to the front of the stage at the end of our world premiere in Austin at South by Southwest, and. And he was shaking. And he came up to me and said, I want you to know that my wife and I met at Rocky Horror 32 years ago. And she wanted me to let you and your dad know that if it wasn't for Rocky, she wouldn't be alive today. And those kind of stories come to us daily through social media and in person. And it's. When you think of Rocky in those terms, it becomes quite overwhelming because I can't think of another work of art, movie, a stage play, a song, a musical that. That has saved lives the way that Rocky has.
- [09:08]
A
We're talking about the documentary Strange Journey, the story of Rocky Horror with its director, Linus o'. Brien. And we want to hear from you. What is your Rocky Horror Picture show journey? Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433 wnyc. I got a text here that says, When I was 16, I'm now 59 and living in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. I went to see Rocky Horror for the first time. Someone heard me say it was my first time. Next thing I knew, everyone was pointing at me chanting, virgin, virgin, smiley face. Let's talk to Juliet, who is calling in from Washington Heights. Hi, Juliet, thanks for making the time to call all of it. You are on the air.
- [09:51]
C
Hi. I just wanted to share what a search of joy this film was in my life. I grew up in a town called Normal, Illinois. And every Friday night throughout high school, my parents, to my dismay, now allowed me to go to midnight Friday night screenings at the Eastland Mall. And we just made chaos. We rained, we lit lighters. We had so much fun. And we learned lessons, I have to say, while having fun, of acceptance of joy. Inspiration. Partly. I was inspired, along with my best friend Randy, to move to New York right out of high school and stay here for our lives. And interestingly enough, I now have two trans daughters. So that was back in the early 80s. And here we are.
- [10:44]
B
Thank you. Amazing.
- [10:45]
A
Thank you so much for sharing your story. Let's talk to Marcia, who is calling in from the Bronx. Hi, Marcia, thanks for calling all of it. You're on the air.
- [10:54]
C
Oh, thank you so much. I was an acting student in London when the original show was produced. And I remember going to the performance, one of our colleagues was within the cast and it was just so much fun. There was nothing shocking about it or upsetting or political or sexual. It was just incredibly funny. And in the original show, when you were being seated in this really broken down old theater with paint falling off the walls, there would be ghouls coming up behind people while they were trying to get their seats. It was such a fun experience. The movie didn't capture that, but I still appreciate the memory of it.
- [11:43]
A
Thank you so much for calling in. Yeah, Linus, a lot of people didn't know that Rocky Horror started as a London stage show.
- [11:50]
B
Yes, she's absolutely right, the way she describes it, because I remember that too. The ghouls were actually the cast before the show. They would dress in these kind of disheveled suits and have these clear frosted masks on so you could kind of see their faces. And they would lead you silently to your seats. So there was a real sense of kind of dread and foreboding in the theater. Yeah. And hearing everyone's personal stories, it never gets old because those stories are kind of tattooed on their brain, much like their first kiss or the first time they actually lost their virginity. So it's just wonderful, wonderful to hear people express themselves in the way that these two callers have.
- [12:34]
A
Can you tell our listeners how your father got director Jim Sherman and Richard Hartley on board for the. For this?
- [12:42]
B
Yeah, well, he, he was in a play, a Sam Shepard play called the Unseen Hand at the theater, Royal Court Theatre upstairs. And he asked Jim, he. He told Jim that he'd been writing a musical and it was amusing him. I was wondering if it would amuse you. So he had Richard Hartley and Jim Sharman come round to our flat in Westbourne Grove and sang some of the songs from. From Rocky, including science fiction, and, and told them a bit of the story. And then Jim went away for a few days, called up and said, the theatre, the Royal Court Theatre, has asked me to direct a play. But I told them that I'd only do it if I could have three weeks fun upstairs at the theater upstairs. So we're on. I need another 20 pages by the end of the week and another five songs. And. And that was it. A three week rehearsal period for a run of three weeks in a theater that held 60 people. And that was meant to be It. It was meant. There was nothing more other than that. And from that tiny acorn, this phenomenon was born.
- [13:48]
A
Yeah. We have a clip from the film Strange Journey. It's your father, who's in his early 80s now, explaining a bit about writing the song Time Warp. And he says something very interesting. Let's listen.
- [14:00]
B
The nice thing about it was there was no pressure on us because it didn't matter if it didn't go any further. It really was a moment in time.
- [14:08]
C
And a moment of fun.
- [14:13]
A
Was he serious that it didn't really matter at the time?
- [14:16]
B
It didn't matter at all. They just. They just wanted to have three weeks fun and that was it. I think the rehearsal period was so joyous, and that joy was spreading throughout the entire Royal Court Theater. And then it became word of mouth and yeah, it just. It just took off. I mean, sometimes when you create something, it can be. You can be a year too early, you can be a year too late. But Rocky was like perfectly timed for the. For the zeitgeist, really.
- [14:46]
A
This text says my parents first outing was at a Rocky Horror Picture show in Pittsburgh in 1978. I've got a picture of my mom dressed up as Columbia from that event that my father took. Ten years later, my father came out as transgender and became a trans activist. When she passed away in 2023, the City of PGH honored her with a proclamation and I spoke ending with don't dream it. And the crowd joined in. Be it. That's a lovely, lovely sentiment. Let's talk to Rachel from Jersey City. Hey, Rachel, thanks for calling, all of it. You are on the air. It's Rachel there. Let's go to Jonathan who is in Woodbridge. Hey, Jonathan.
- [15:28]
B
Hello.
- [15:29]
A
You're on the air.
- [15:31]
C
Yes. I grew up on around the corner from the New Yorker movie theater on 89th and Broadway. And it became a community event. Watching the movie, me and all my friends used to be able to get in for free because we knew the manager and we went there every week and watched the movie. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it. Susan Sarand and Tim Curry are incredible. It brings back a lot of memories. It's a long time ago.
- [16:00]
A
Thanks for calling. We'll have more about Tim Curry, Susan Sarandon, and about the Rocky Horror Picture show with the director of Strange, the story of Rocky Horror. After a quick break, you're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. We're talking about the documentary Strange, the Story of Rocky Horror with its director Linus O'. Brien, Today is the 50th anniversary. We want to hear from you. Tell us your Rocky Horror Picture show journey. Before the break, someone mentioned Tim Curry, and Tim Curry is speaking in the documentary. Of course, he had a stroke about 2012, but he is in good form. He has a lot to say. What made him take on the role of Frank N. Furter?
- [16:58]
B
I think, you know, he was just. He was a jobbing actor at the time, just like my dad. They met in. In the. The touring production of Hair in England, and just by a chance accident, they. They met outside a gym where my dad was looking for. For a muscle man who could sing. And I think from that chance interaction, Tim went and auditioned and it became very clear that he was the only person to play the role. I think an argument could be made that we wouldn't be here talking about Rocky unless Tim was the role of Frank played in the role of Frank N. Furter. Because as anyone who's seen it, it's one of the most iconic debuts of all time. And so to have him in the documentary and sharing his stories with his sharp, dry, sarcastic wit was incredibly important. And we're very grateful to have him in it.
- [17:53]
A
So what was the reaction to the stage show in London?
- [17:56]
B
I mean, it was. It was incredible. It was like a bomb went off basically. You know, it transferred twice down the King's Road into these kind of disused cinemas, which is the perfect place to see it. And it just went from strength to strength. You know, the soundtrack and the transgressive themes and the, and the sense of joy about it all has contributed to its legacy. And from there, Lou Adler took it to the Roxy in Los Angeles and. And after that, the film deal got made.
- [18:30]
A
Yeah. When did Hollywood come calling?
- [18:33]
B
Well, you know, again, another really, that two really key chance events that really. Well, maybe three actually. But the, the first two, the. The first one was Lou Adler's agent at the time was Gordon Stolberg, and he went on to become the head of 20th Century Fox. And so, you know, Lou had a great relationship with him and was able to get a deal done because no one else was looking to make a Rocky Horror movie. And then the second thing was Tim Deegan was a Fox executive. After the film flopped, they were wondering what to do with it. And he had the idea to start showing it at midnight in New York and Austin. And so without that, those two decisions, we're not here talking about it. And then the last thing, and probably the most important thing, as in for the midnight screenings was the. The way that Sal Piro, the president of the Rocky Horror Fan Club, really kind of took it on board and championed it and. And turned the midnight screenings into what they were. So, you know, you never know in life what. What decisions and what choices are going to be made that. That end up really influencing art and culture and just everything in life in general, really.
- [19:51]
A
Let's take a few more calls. Let's talk to H In Fairmont, New Jersey. Hi, H. Thanks for making the time to call all of it. You're on the air.
- [20:00]
B
Hi, Alison. Such a huge fan.
- [20:02]
C
You have evoked this memory of my childhood because I had an uncle who.
- [20:07]
B
Tried to educate and enlighten me by.
- [20:09]
C
Taking me to foreign films at a theater in Teaneck, New Jersey. They used to show foreign films as subtitles on the weekends.
- [20:16]
B
And we showed up one night and.
- [20:18]
C
He bought these two tickets, not having an idea what Rocky Horror Picture show was.
- [20:22]
B
And part of the deal was that we would go home and tell my.
- [20:25]
C
Parents about whatever foreign film that we had seen.
- [20:28]
B
And he sat for the entire duration.
- [20:30]
C
Of that film with his mouth open, completely shocked by what we were watching. And on the way home, threatened me that I was not allowed to tell my parents about what we had just seen.
- [20:40]
A
That's so funny. Let's talk to Riley in Beacon. Hi, Riley. Thanks for calling all of it.
- [20:47]
C
Hi. I was actually born 20 years after the movie was released, But I spent so much of my high school years in the early 2010s going to annual performances up in Albany, where I grew up, at the Palace Theater. Around Halloween, they would do a couple nights showing the movie and the whole shebang with the Shadow cast and everything. And it was just such a fun thing for my friends and I to do. And I just think it's so cool that that element of the show, of the movie, rather, has just crossed several generations. I recall in the 2000 and tens, there was, like, an episode of Glee that was a tribute to it, too, which at that point was probably 40 years after the movie came out. So, I don't know. While I'm on the younger side of the fandom, I just. I'm really grateful for the memories it gave me growing up.
- [21:36]
A
Thank you so much for calling in. Something I thought was interesting in the film, Linus, was the decision to have your father keep the rights to the film. And I thought that was a really stunning moment. Would you share that with us? Oops. You're on mute.
- [21:56]
B
I'm on mute.
- [21:57]
A
There you are. You're good. Yes.
- [21:58]
B
All right. Well, it's interesting because I think my dad was approached by Mick Jagger's people to see if he would sell the rights to Rocky. And then he went into rehearsal the next day and told Jim Sharman about it. And Jim Sharma was like, no, no, no, don't do that, otherwise we won't be able to make it. And my dad was like, oh, okay, well, fine, then I won't. So, yeah, so Jim was very, very prescient and right in his decision.
- [22:32]
A
With 2020 hindsight, can you tell what happened, why the film initially was a flop?
- [22:40]
B
Well, how on earth are you going to market it? You've got to give the people at 20th Century Fox some. Some grace here because, you know, it's a. It's a crazy movie with lots of, you know, wild themes, like, where do you. How do you. How do you categorize it? Because, you know, a lot of the word unique is thrown around quite a lot. But I think that that's what Rocky is. It is unique. So it's trying to market something that from a traditional standpoint is almost impossible, really. So it took. It took the midnight screenings to make it happen.
- [23:17]
A
Let's take a call. This is a name I recognize, Jenny Livingston from Manhattan. Hey, Jenny. Hey.
- [23:25]
C
I'm actually from Brooklyn, but I'm in Manhattan and I can't wait to see this film I made, Paris is Burning, which, you know, is a film that has a lot of people like it, created a collective atmosphere. But I saw Rocky Horror when I was a young teenager. Someone took me. I did not know what it was going to be. I was not prepared for the flames and the water and everybody dancing. And it really taught me, and kind of my generation of filmmaker, particularly maybe my generation of queer filmmaker, what it could be to create a collectivity, theatrical feeling in a community, in a theater. So big, big influence, and just can't wait to see all of what the film is gonna show, you know, based on. Also what you've been saying on the segment. Can't wait.
- [24:13]
A
It's a great film, I gotta say. This is a text that says, growing up, I'd watch my sisters get dressed up to see Rocky at the 8th Street Playhouse in New York. That was a big location for Rocky Horror. Tell us about that in the film.
- [24:30]
B
Well, there was. There's. There were two main locations for the midnight screenings, the Waverly and the. The Paramount in Austin. And it was interesting. There's a nice moment in. In the documentary where Lou Adler and was calling the. The Paramount every Monday to see how the midnight screenings were going. And after about three weeks, he called up and said, well, how was it this week? And he goes, well, it's about 50 people. He went, 50 people? And the manager of the Paramount said, well, what's interesting, it's the same 50 people every week. And that's when the light bulb went off in Lou Adler's head and he knew that the kind of. The cult was starting.
- [25:16]
A
In the documentary, you talked to so many current folks who are current working actors. Jack Black, Trixie Mattel. What did they tell you about what Rocky Horror meant to them?
- [25:27]
B
Well, they. They share their stories and their stories are very relatable to. To the stories that we've been hearing on the radio today. Trixie found the movie in a bargain bin in, I think, in Wisconsin. And. And that led her down this. This path to. To become in the shadow cast and be able to kind of feel free to be herself. And then Jack Black got taken to a screening by his sister and experienced it that way. So all of these Rocky stories, including Lilias Pirro, the sister of Sal Pirro, and Sean Waters, who was a performer at the 8th Street Playhouse, these stories are windows into everybody's experience. And I hope that when people see the documentary, they will see themselves on screen through these other people. At least that's the hope.
- [26:26]
A
I think you can get one more call in. Let's talk to Charles, who's calling from Morristown, New Jersey. Hey, Charles, you're on the air. Charles, are you there?
- [26:38]
C
One more call.
- [26:40]
A
Oh, is Charles listening on? Charles listening to his radio. Can you hear me now, Charles?
- [26:47]
C
Charles, are you there?
- [26:51]
A
We're trying. Charles had a great saying. He said he was a young father with a son, with a bunch of friends who heard about it. The reputation was that it was wacky. So we took them to the midnight presentation and then asked the kids, do you want to see it again? So we saw it again half a dozen times. We were dragging the kids and the kids were dragging us.
- [27:10]
B
Amazing.
- [27:12]
A
As we finish. You know, there's the theme of the making of the film. There's the theme of the stage play. There's a theme of your story with your dad and your dad's self identity. What would you say the theme is of the entire picture?
- [27:28]
B
I guess I'm repeating myself, but I said it earlier in the show. It's really about community and connection. The fact that Rocky has been able to provide that for many people who felt disenfranchised or marginalized or just a little bit different or living on the fringes of society, especially in the Midwest and the Southern states where access to this kind of thing is maybe not readily available, like on the coast. I think that was incredibly important and continues to be incredibly important. For people all over the world to feel free expressing themselves and their authentic selves has been a gift that Rocky, you know, keeps on giving. And Rocky will outlive us all, basically.
- [28:14]
A
The film is called Strange Journey, the story of Rocky Horror. It's in theaters now. I've been speaking with its director, Linus o'. Brien. Thank you so much for being with us.
- [28:24]
B
It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Alison, I don't mean to interrupt your meal, but I saw you from across a cafe and you're the Geico Gecko, right?
- [28:31]
A
In the flesh.
- [28:32]
B
Oh my goodness. This is huge. To finally meet you. I love Geico's fast and friendly claim service.
- [28:37]
A
Well, that's how Geico gets 97% customer satisfaction.
- [28:41]
B
Anyway, that's all. Enjoy the rest of your food.
- [28:44]
A
No worries.
- [28:45]
B
So are you just going to watch me eat? Oh, sorry. Just a little star struck. I'll be on my way. If you're going to stick around, just.
- [28:52]
A
Pull up a chair.
- [28:53]
B
You're the best.
- [28:54]
C
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- [28:56]
B
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- [28:57]
A
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