Jasmine Renee Jones (2:47)

Thank you so much.

Olivia Michaela Ross (2:48)

Thank you so much.

Alison Stewart (2:49)

Listener, we'd love to hear from you. Do you remember using the software Mavis Bacon teaches typing? How did you find the program? What were some of your favorite games? When did you realize that Maybe Mavis Beacon isn't a real person. Give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Or you can reach out on social media at all of it. Wnyc. Jasmine, where were you when you first encountered this program?

Jasmine Renee Jones (3:15)

You know, I was about 8 years old, and I couldn't tell you if I first played it at home. My dad had purchased the game from Costco. But also it was involved in our, like, computer operations third grade curriculum. So I was getting exposed to Mavis Beacon's teachings both in an academic setting and in a personal home setting.

Alison Stewart (3:37)

Jasmine, when did you realize that Mavis Beacon was a fictional character?

Jasmine Renee Jones (3:42)

You know, I. I don't. I wish, because I made a whole movie about it, that there was this, like, lightning rod moment where I. I was like, she. Who is she? She's not real. What happened? But I actually compare her to, like, Santa Claus or, I guess, you know, Aunt Jemima, where it's like, when you're a kid, you think these people are real, and then at some point between in, like, your maturation, you come to the realization that this is not a real person. So the first, like, conscious question that I had about Mavis beacon was in 2018, when I was like, wait, why was she black? And it was that question that led me to Google. And then I realized that the woman who modeled for the game, no one had ever spoken with her. And there was a lot of, like, really interesting and salacious articles about, about her.

Alison Stewart (4:29)

Olivia, you joined the project a little bit later on. What made you want to explore her story? Mavis Beacon story?

Olivia Michaela Ross (4:37)

I just really felt super connected to the idea of, like, a mythical typing tutor, someone who was, like, so proficient and confident on the keyboard of that, like, archetype of a person being fake and kind of having this, like, really exciting legacy. When I met Jasmine, they had been working on this project, and they presented the concept to my class. I was, like, taking classes at the School for Poetic Computation. And in class, Jazz, like, spoke about, you know, like, I've been working on this film. These are the ideas behind it. And after that was my first contact with Mavis Beacon, because I. I was born in the early 2000s, and so much of my learning how to type was kind of just from being tossed in and, like, expected to type. I took a few typing, like, lessons in school, and I had a software on my personal family computer, but it was never anything so colorful as Mavis Beacon. And it was really through that encounter with Jazz and, you know, going online, checking old forums, going on the way back machine that I, like, discovered this very rich and colorful world.

Alison Stewart (5:59)

Let's give people a little bit of context. Mavis Beacon, the character was born in the garage in Sherman Oaks, California. In a garage. It's more than three decades ago, but people believed Jasmine. She was a real person. Tell us about some of the things you heard about Mavis Beacon sightings throughout the years.

Jasmine Renee Jones (6:17)

Yeah, there was this really fun Mandela effect that would happen where, you know, even the software developers, they told us, like, when they would go to tech conferences, their rival company, like, different people would come up and be like, oh, can't believe you got Mavis Beacon. We really tried to book her. Or, you know, Mavis Beacon would be invited to different. As a keynote speaker at different events. And people just had a really hard time coming to terms with the fact that this black woman who they had become very familiar with and had this, like, parasocial, I mean, limited parasocial relationship, but a relationship nonetheless. People found that to be a really tough pill to swallow. And, you know, I also. I love Internet culture, meme culture. And I think this idea of the critical fabulation around this fictional character is a really rich jumping off point to talk about, like, how black women, how marginalized bodies in general are represented and consumed online.

Alison Stewart (7:17)

Let's take a call. Brian is calling in from Ardsley. Hi, Brian, thanks for calling, all of it.

Wix Advertiser (7:24)

Yeah.

Caller (7:24)

Hey.

Wix Advertiser (7:24)

Hi. How you doing? I just wanted to call in and share. So I was born in the 80s, extremely old.

Caller (7:33)

Filmmaker spirit.

Wix Advertiser (7:36)

But, Allison, you could probably relate. Yes, but, yeah, I. I learned to type with Mavis Beacon when I was in fifth grade, something like that. We had a computer lab at school, and for whatever reason, I went to the computer lab instead of recess, and I learned to type. And now, 30 years later, I'm a computer programmer.

Alison Stewart (7:58)

Like the story. Brian, thank you so much for calling in. We're talking to Jasmine Renee Jones and Olivia Mikayla Ross. Their film is called Seeking Mavis Beacon. It opens in theaters this Friday, August 30th. Olivia, the real woman on the COVID of Mavis Beacon was originally a model from Haiti. How did she become the face of the program?

Olivia Michaela Ross (8:21)

So the actual story, as it has been told to reporters in the past, has been that the developers encountered her at a saxophone avenue behind a perfume counter and just were totally floored by how beautiful and elegant she was and offered her the position modeling for this game. They didn't have a title, a name of the game. Yet they just were really in the early stages of figuring out what things were going to be. And, yeah, they were taken by how. By the way she held herself and thought that she would be an excellent choice. There are a few articles that talk about how the length of her nails became a bit of an issue in terms of, you know, would people believe that she was this fast typer, as she said, with. Depending on, you know, how long her nails appeared. That's a detail that we were never able to confirm if it was true. It seems very likely that it is not. And similarly, a lot of details about that original origin story are a bit debunked in the adventure that Jaz and I go on. And so the kind of foundational myth is that she was this. Yeah, checkout counter perfume saleswoman. But we actually. Things get much deeper and much more rich as we continue to unfold. Little nuggets in the film.

Alison Stewart (9:55)

Yeah, Jasmine, in the film, you discuss how Mavis Beacon was one of the few black female characters in educational software. How important was that for you personally? And what did you want to investigate about that?

Jasmine Renee Jones (10:10)

You know, as I was working on this film, I actually realized through other people's testimonies that I was like, oh, my God, Mavis Beacon was my first black teacher. Yeah. And so that's just so significant. You know, we always talk about how. How much representation matters. And I do think this film is about, like, really unpacking how much does representation matter? But for me, you know, we had this family computer, and my parents could not teach me how to use it. And so I had this software, and that is what allowed me to communicate with other people for better or for worse. You know, aim, I don't know if AOL Instant messenger was the best place for a young person to be hanging out, but also just in terms of expressing myself. So beyond this project, both Olivia and I are, like, practicing artists and archivists who spend a lot of time thinking about, like, this idea of digital insecurity and our autonomy. And, yeah, I think Olivia has coined this term that we come to define in the film of, like, a cyber doula or somebody who stewards a healthy relationship to technology. And so with that phrase, I was like, oh, my God. Mavis Beacon was my first cyber doula. She was my cyber doula, and she is the reason that I feel comfortable even making movies the way that I do today.

Alison Stewart (11:31)

Let's talk to Claudia from Maplewood, New Jersey. Hi, Claudia. Thanks for calling all of it.

Caller (11:36)

Hi. Thank you for having me on my Husband was listening, and he's like, turn this on. You have to call. It was the late 90s, and I. I had been temping in New York City soon after graduating college. And I, you know, I've been hunting and pecking my whole. And nobody had a problem with it. And I was. I had no trouble getting these, you know, longer term temp jobs in the city. And then my husband wasn't my husband yet. We were moving to London so he'd go to grad school. And I had a six month work visa in which I was supposed to get a job. And so I went right to the temp agencies again. And suddenly my 45 words a minute really mattered and I couldn't. I couldn't get a job. So I was. I totally panicked and I went. Right after I got out of the temp interview, I went to a Radio Shack in London and found Mavis Beacon. I guess it was probably on a disc, and I took it home and I just kind of went nuts with my effort. And in about two weeks, I had. I'm not even kidding, I'd almost doubled my typing speed. And because I'd freed my eyes and I went back and got a great temp job, like, right away.

Alison Stewart (12:55)

Love the story.

Jasmine Renee Jones (12:56)

I love this.

Olivia Michaela Ross (12:57)

That is fantastic.

Alison Stewart (12:58)

I do love you.

Jasmine Renee Jones (12:59)

Congratulations.

Alison Stewart (13:00)

Yeah, I love this text we just got from somebody. I'm 72. I use Mavis Beacon to learn to type as an adult. Congratulations to you as well. My guests are director Jasmine Renee Jones and producer Olivia Michaela Ross. Their new film is Seeking Mavis Bacon. All right, so there's so many different levels in this film, but one of the big parts is you're trying to find the actor, the model who played Mavis Beacon. Let's listen to a little clip from the film. This is the two of you recreating a timeline for the possible whereabouts of Renee. She's the woman who plays Mavis Beacon, who originally portrayed her on the COVID Let's listen.

Jasmine Renee Jones (13:36)

Well, let's just go through what do we know to be true.

Olivia Michaela Ross (13:41)

We know the location where they met Rene Les Bronze.

Jasmine Renee Jones (13:47)

We know that Les Crane walked in with Joe Abrams, saw Rene Les Bronze behind a perfume counter or near a perfume counter at Saks Fifth Avenue and.

Olivia Michaela Ross (13:56)

Says, you should model for my program and I'm gonna pay you $500. Sometimes Joe Abrams was present. Sometimes Joe Abrams was not.

Jasmine Renee Jones (14:05)

Once Les Crane died, it became Joe Abrams who was telling the story primarily of Mavis Beacon.

Olivia Michaela Ross (14:11)

Joe Abrams said that when he last spoke to Renee Les Bronze, she was thrilled about the success and had started to be recognized.

Jasmine Renee Jones (14:19)

I don't trust anything Joe Abrams says, but that would have been in 1996.

Alison Stewart (14:23)

Yeah, that's a very telling subject. I don't trust anything that Joe Abrams said. Jasmine, in the course of making the film, without giving too much away, how did you find the men who said that they hired Renee to be Mavis Bacon?

Jasmine Renee Jones (14:41)

I mean, much like we find many things in this terrifying digital age, we found their contact information online. And actually, you know, this is from early, before you see a scene where we're able to confront them indirectly about some of these suspicions. And ultimately, I have to say, as a first time filmmaker, first time investigator, I have been so grateful for how they have cooperated with the investigation. Yeah, this movie is full of very interesting characters and I think at the end of the day we're getting work. Olivia and I are trying to get to the bottom of like how truth gets made and like how do you hold space for multiple truths? And you can hear in this clip that Olivia and I had our doubts. We had our doubts and some of those were confirmed and some of those were also broken open. You know, I think this film is also about the human condition and I just love people. So even when I'm having these really intense interrogations, I'm also like connecting on a human level with these people. It's a conundrum. I'm a Gemini for any listeners at home. I'm a Gemini. So I'm always holding space for multiple truths of I don't trust these developers and I also am having so much fun talking to them about my favorite character, Olivia.

Alison Stewart (16:00)

Something really interesting about the film is that you were both central to the narrative. A time we see your frustration, milestones in your life about what to do next after school, even disputes with the owner of the buildings that you have your space in. When did you realize that these elements outside of the search for Maeve's Beacon would become essential to the narrative of this documentary?

Olivia Michaela Ross (16:22)

I think for a while we had.

Jasmine Renee Jones (16:24)

Always kind of had the idea that.

Olivia Michaela Ross (16:26)

The documentary would need to be self reflexive, that, you know, there are certain things that are like.

Jasmine Renee Jones (16:35)

I don't know if you or any.

Olivia Michaela Ross (16:37)

Listeners at home remember the reason May Alcott writing Little Women. She has like an anecdote where she talks about how she like found difficulty publishing it because like, you know, who wants to read a story about like four little women living in New England, you know, but in reality it's like those kinds of like heart centered Stories about the trials and tribulations that end up really, really connecting to people in a deep way. And we felt like, in order for the film to really be a kind of offering to the actress, to Renee, who is someone that Jazz and I have a lot of really deep respect for and really admire, like, kind of the legacy that she created through portraying the role of Mavis Beacon, in order for us to kind of be in right relation, we needed the documentary to be able to stand on its own two feet as like, a testament to that. That effort of searching and to kind of be like a holistic picture of who we were and who are the people that she would be being in dialogue with if she chose to be.

Jasmine Renee Jones (17:44)

A part of our project.

Alison Stewart (17:46)

Jasmine has a very. This film has a very specific aesthetic, has a really cool look to it. How would you describe the look of it?

Jasmine Renee Jones (17:56)

You know, it's a neon noir structurally. Olivia's heard me make this comparison a million times, but, like, I. This film is birthed from the mind of somebody who is, like, binge watching and kind of hate watching true crime documentaries while also, like, doom scrolling on TikTok. So it is maximalist, it is dense. But I also like, you know, I love gritty, masculine noir movies, and I love painting with color. I think that when I call this thing neon noir, instead of playing with shadows, we're playing with color. And Olivia and I were able to construct this, like, little headquarters that is a mind meld for both of us in a dilapidated warehouse in West Oakland. And that becomes a bit of a central location and a conflict within the film. But, yeah, I think. I think I'm properly crediting Mandy Harris Williams when I say, like, the revolution will be irresistible. It's like we're really trying to make these, like, didactic conversations around cyber feminism seductive.

Alison Stewart (19:04)

The name of the film is Seeking Mavis Bacon. We've been speaking with this director, Jasmine Renee Jones, producer, Olivia Michaela Ross. It opens in theaters this Friday, August 30th. Thank you so much for your time.

Jasmine Renee Jones (19:16)

Thank you. This is so much fun. And to the callers, thank you. If you weren't able to speak, we actually have a hotline. Olivia, do you want to shout out our number real quick?

Olivia Michaela Ross (19:25)

Yeah, we're 575 seeking.

Alison Stewart (19:28)

Thanks a lot. There's more. All of it on the way. We'll talk about a new podcast which explores the North Korea hacking of Sony Pictures.

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Jasmine Renee Jones (20:10)

All right.

Olivia Michaela Ross (20:11)

Welcome to McDonald's. Can I take your order, miss?

McDonald's Customer (20:13)

I've been hitting up McDonald's. McDonald's for years. Now it's back. We need snack wraps. What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.