Summary of "The Secret(s) to Baking With Chocolate"

Podcast: All Of It with Alison Stewart, WNYC
Guest: Michelle Song, pastry chef and author of Chocolate: A Baking Book
Date: September 19, 2024

Overview

In this episode’s Food for Thought segment, host Alison Stewart welcomes pastry chef and cookbook author Michelle Song to discuss the versatile, beloved, and sometimes mysterious world of baking with chocolate. From chocolate’s emotional resonance and role in family memories to the technicalities of cocoa varieties and baking methods, the conversation covers everything chocolate lovers (and bakers) want to know, with smart listener calls, expert tips, and practical recipes.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

The Emotional Resonance of Chocolate

• Chocolate Memories: Chocolate is often tied to personal and family milestones—holidays, birthdays, or even baking with kids. Michelle shares how chocolate is woven into her childhood traditions.
  • Quote: “Chocolate is celebrated in big, you know, life milestones...for me, it was the assorted seas chocolate box that my mom would buy at Christmas every year, or...the yellow chocolate cake that I'd request for my birthday.” — Michelle Song (03:20)
• Listener Stories: Several listeners call/text with their own chocolate memories, like eating ganache in Brussels or making chocolate molds as children.

Types of Chocolate and Their Roles

• Definitions and Controversy:
  • White Chocolate: Often debated as a ‘true’ chocolate since it lacks cocoa solids but contains cocoa butter.
    • Quote: “Technically...white chocolate is not considered a true chocolate because it doesn't have the cocoa solids...But...I would consider it a chocolate. I always do include white chocolate in that category.” — Michelle Song (04:13)
  • Milk Chocolate (10–45% cocoa): Sweeter, good for cookies and candy coating.
  • Dark Chocolate (~60%): Balanced, intense flavor, best for cookies, brownies, cakes.
  • Semi-Sweet (35–60%): “The chocolate chip cookie chocolate”—sweet but with cocoa’s bitterness.
• White Chocolate Baking Tips:
  • Michelle likes to pair it with lemon to cut sweetness, like her lemon cream tart inspired by Pierre Hermé. (07:40)

Cocoa Powder Science & Technique

• Dutch Processed vs. Natural Cocoa:
  • Dutch cocoa is alkalized, has a neutral pH, darker color, and smoother taste.
    • Quote: “Dutch cocoa is alkalized...results in a darker color and also a smoother, more balanced taste compared to natural or unsweetened cocoa powder.” — Michelle Song (08:53)
• Blooming Cocoa:
  • Activates cocoa by mixing it with hot liquid/fat for enhanced flavor & texture.
    • “It just activates it and the technique kind of enhances both the flavor but also improves the texture, so cutting down on potentially some graininess.” — Michelle Song (10:01)

Listener Q&A Highlights

• Ganache Troubleshooting
  • Key Tips: Avoid high heat, don't let water touch chocolate, finely chop chocolate, pour boiling cream over and let sit to temper.
    • Quote: “Chocolate hates two things. It hates high heat and it hates water.” — Michelle Song (11:58)
• Melting Chocolate:
  • Use microwave at low power in short bursts or double boiler. (13:30)
• Espresso Powder in Brownies:
  • Enhances chocolate flavor; dissolve powder to reduce graininess. (16:09)
    • “It enhances that chocolate flavor. It just goes so well together.” — Michelle Song

Recipe Spotlights

Easy: Fudgy Shiny-Top Brownies (17:19)

• Trick: Dissolve sugar fully with eggs over a double boiler for the signature shiny top.
  • “Dissolved sugar will result in that shiny top that we're looking for.” — Michelle Song

Intermediate: Chocolate Chiffon Cake (19:15)

• Technique: Uses both whipped egg whites & yolks for richness and airy texture; melted chocolate gives flavor punch.
  • “Chiffon cakes are somewhere in between like a sponge cake and angel food cake.” — Michelle Song

Challenging: Cookies and Cream Puffs (22:50)

• Why Hard: Multiple components—cream filling (no eggs, uses gelatin), choux pastry, and crackling cookie topper—make it a true project.
  • “It's not a super hard recipe to master. It's just more of a time consuming recipe. But it's worth the time and effort.” — Michelle Song

Wild Card: Banana Buckwheat Chocolate Chunk Cookies (25:14)

• Adds buckwheat for nutty flavor, banana for chewiness—great combo with chocolate.

Practical Tips & Substitutions

• Allergic to Chocolate?
  • Consider carob or hazelnut-based alternatives (Crowdsourced via listener texts and Michelle’s agreement, 24:53).
• Incorporating Chocolate in Non-Food Uses:
  • Listener shares story of using cocoa powder in homemade makeup; Michelle is surprised but sees the logic (24:22).

Broader Reflections & Economic Realities

• Rising Cocoa Prices:
  • Acknowledges current high prices due to global supply and climate issues, but reassures that delicious desserts don’t require luxury chocolate.
  • “You can make really great desserts with just store bought chocolate.” — Michelle Song (26:07)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Chocolate’s Dual Appeal:
  • “It's sweet and bitter at the same time. It has emotional resonances...it can evoke warm feelings of family or even romance.” — Alison Stewart (01:33)
• On Ganache:
  • “Chocolate hates high heat and it hates water.” — Michelle Song (11:58)
• Advice for Home Bakers:
  • “To make good chocolate desserts you don't have to use exclusively luxury chocolate.” — Michelle Song (26:41)
• Listener on Chocolate Memories in Europe:
  • “I backpacked over to Europe… and had those famous milk chocolate ganache shells. I just sat in the town Square… just inhaling this chocolate and people were loving it.” — Giovanni, caller (10:56)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:20] The role of chocolate in personal and family memories
• [04:13] The white chocolate debate and applications
• [06:58] Pairing white chocolate with lemon
• [08:53] Dutch cocoa vs. natural cocoa and why it matters
• [10:01] Blooming cocoa powder explained
• [11:52] Listener asks about making ganache at home
• [13:30] Best ways to melt chocolate
• [15:22] Listener sings praises of espresso powder for chocolate flavor
• [17:19] How to make shiny-top brownies
• [19:15] What makes a cake a “chiffon” cake
• [22:50] Layered challenge of cookies and cream puffs
• [24:22] Chocolate in beauty routines
• [24:53] Carob suggested as a chocolate alternative
• [25:14] Banana buckwheat chocolate chunk cookies
• [26:07] Economics and ethics of buying chocolate

Tone & Style

Friendly, conversational, and full of practical wisdom—Michelle brings expert pastry chef knowledge while keeping recipes, techniques, and chocolate lore approachable. Listener interaction adds warmth and real-life context.

For chocolate enthusiasts, bakers, and anyone curious about the science and culture of cacao, this episode offers expert advice, tried-and-true techniques, and heartwarming stories that reveal why chocolate continues to captivate—both in the kitchen and in our memories.