'The Substance' Makeup Artist Pierre-Olivier Persin

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Substance" with Makeup Artist Pierre-Olivier Persan

All Of It is a WNYC podcast hosted by Alison Stewart, focusing on culture and its creators. In the episode titled "The Substance" released on February 28, 2025, Stewart engages in an in-depth conversation with Oscar-nominated makeup artist Pierre-Olivier Persan. The episode delves into Persan's creative process, his contributions to the horror film The Substance, and the intricate world of special makeup effects in cinema.

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1. Introduction to Pierre-Olivier Persan

Timestamp: [00:33]

Alison Stewart introduces Pierre-Olivier Persan, highlighting his pivotal role in bringing the film The Substance to life through exceptional special makeup effects. Persan's work was instrumental in achieving the movie's body horror aesthetic, notably transforming Demi Moore into Elizabeth Sparkle, a movie star whose body deteriorates rapidly after ingesting a mysterious black market drug. His efforts not only earned him an Oscar nomination for Best Makeup and Hairstyling but also a BAFTA win.

2. Early Passion and Career Beginnings

Timestamp: [01:48 - 02:53]

Persan shares his early fascination with makeup effects, tracing his passion back to his teenage years in the late 1980s.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "When I was 14, 15 years old, I used to have latex and plaster for Christmas and clay. I spent my teenage years making monsters in my bedroom, trying to replicate the great makeup from that time, like American Werewolf in London or Gremlins."

At 15, Persan was certain about pursuing a career in special makeup effects, a passion that has driven his artistic journey.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "When I was a teenager at the end of the 80s, I knew that I was going to be a special makeup effects artist and there was no doubt about that."

3. Getting Involved with The Substance

Timestamp: [02:58 - 04:23]

The conversation shifts to how Persan became involved with The Substance. Initially approached by the executive producer to review the script laden with prosthetics, Persan was immediately captivated by the project’s potential.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "I read the script and I was like, oh, that's incredible. That's terrific. I have to do that movie. So I was the one crawling back at him saying, oh, I have to. Please let me do the movie."

4. Interpreting the Script and Director’s Vision

Timestamp: [04:23 - 05:52]

Persan discusses the importance of collaborating closely with director Coralie Farja to understand her creative vision. This collaboration was crucial in translating the written script into tangible makeup effects that aligned with the narrative’s demands.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "You read the script, but that's only a start. You really need to understand what's inside the director's mind. Sometimes you think something very big in the movie, but the director will say, it's going to last only a few seconds."

5. Emphasis on Practical Effects

Timestamp: [05:12 - 05:52]

A significant portion of the episode examines the preference for practical effects over digital ones. Persan emphasizes the tactile authenticity that practical effects bring to the film, enhancing the audience's connection to the on-screen transformations.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "When she was watching the movie, she wanted to touch what she was seeing on screen. That was the whole point, to have a very organic journey in a way, while watching the movie."

6. Detailed Breakdown of Key Scenes

a. The Back Birthing Scene

Timestamp: [05:52 - 07:09]

One of the standout moments discussed is the back birthing scene, where Elizabeth Sparkle gives birth to a monster. Persan elaborates on the combination of silicone dummies, raised sets, and large prosthetics used to create the horrifying effect.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "We used different kinds of makeup effects for that. Silicon dummies, raised sets, and big prosthetics to achieve the rippling effect and the back splitting open."

b. Aging Effect on Elizabeth Sparkle

Timestamp: [09:48 - 11:36]

The discussion moves to the portrayal of rapid aging, beginning with minor changes like Elizabeth’s finger and escalating throughout the film. Persan explains the balance between realism and fantasy, incorporating research on aging while allowing creative liberties to enhance the horror element.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "We researched the effect of aging on full bodies, looked at real people with hunchbacks, and then came up with our own design to balance believability with creative freedom."

7. Techniques for Continuity in Makeup

Timestamp: [11:36 - 12:44]

A listener’s question about maintaining makeup continuity is addressed by Persan, who details the process of creating molds and silicone appliances to ensure consistency across multiple shooting days.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "We cast silicone appliances from molds made from the initial sculpture. This allows us to apply the same makeup every day, maintaining continuity throughout the shoot."

8. Challenges of Actor Experience with Prosthetics

Timestamp: [08:32 - 09:48]

The episode touches on the physical demands placed on actors during makeup application. Persan discusses the careful balance between technical precision and empathy, ensuring actors remain comfortable and supported during long and intensive makeup sessions.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "We have to be very aware of the actors' comfort. If something feels wrong, we take a break. It's about respecting the actors as sensitive human beings while focusing on the technical aspects of our work."

9. Creating Iconic Effects: The Ear Falling Off

Timestamp: [12:44 - 13:23]

Alison Stewart references a specific effect where Elizabeth’s ear falls off, prompting Persan to explain the techniques used, including the strategic placement of prosthetics and camera angles to achieve the desired impact.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "We glue down the ear and cover it with an appliance. Camera angles play a significant role in making the effect believable without giving away too much."

10. The Monster Suit and Performance

Timestamp: [13:23 - 14:12]

The conversation concludes with insights into the creation of the giant monster creature. Persan explains the decision to use Margaret Qualley inside the suit for close-up performances, ensuring the tragic emotion of the character is effectively conveyed through expressive eyes.

Pierre Olivier Persan: "We used Margaret for the close-ups because her performance brings out the tragic aspects of the monster. Seeing her eyes helps the audience connect with the character's emotions."

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Conclusion

In this episode of All Of It, Alison Stewart and Pierre-Olivier Persan explore the intricate art of special makeup effects in horror cinema. Persan’s dedication to practical effects, his collaborative approach with directors, and his technical expertise shine through as he shares behind-the-scenes insights into The Substance. The discussion not only highlights the creative challenges and solutions in makeup artistry but also underscores the emotional and physical nuances involved in bringing complex characters to life on screen.

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Notable Quotes:

• Pierre Olivier Persan at [01:48]: "When I was 14, 15 years old, I used to have latex and plaster for Christmas and clay. I spent my teenage years making monsters in my bedroom."

• Pierre Olivier Persan at [04:23]: "You read the script, but that's only a start. You really need to understand what's inside the director's mind."

• Pierre Olivier Persan at [05:12]: "When she was watching the movie, she wanted to touch what she was seeing on screen."

• Pierre Olivier Persan at [11:36]: "We cast silicone appliances from molds made from the initial sculpture. This allows us to apply the same makeup every day."

• Pierre Olivier Persan at [13:42]: "Seeing her eyes helps the audience connect with the character's emotions."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a clear understanding of Pierre-Olivier Persan’s contributions to The Substance and the broader landscape of special makeup effects in film.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Let's continue our conversations with Oscar nominees ahead of this Sunday's ceremony. The work of our next guest requires a lot of work before the director yells action, but then you can see his work full throttle in the film the Substance. From the unforgettable spinal birth scene to the creature at the end of the movie, all of it came to life because of special makeup effects designer Pierre Olivet Persam. He worked with a team to help achieve the body horror vision of writer and director Coralie Farja. He spent hours each day transforming Demi Moore into Elizabeth Sparkle, a movie star who begins aging rapidly after she takes an unusual black market drug. If you've seen the movie, you know how key the makeup is to telling this story. The Substance is one of only seven horror films to ever be nominated for best Picture at the Oscars. And Pierre Olivier Persan is nominated as well for best makeup and Hairstyling. He also took home the bafta. Earlier this month, I began my conversation with Pierre Olivier by asking him how he got his start as a makeup artist.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

When I was 14, 15 years old, I used to have late and plaster for Christmas and clay. And I spent my teenage years doing making monsters in my bedroom out of my bedroom and trying to copy the great makeup from that time, like the American Werewolf in London or, I don't know, Gremlin. So, you know, the end of the 80s for me.

[Alison Stewart]

When was your big break when you knew this is going to be a career for me?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Oh, when I was teenager at the end of the 80s, I knew that I was going to be a special makeup effects artist and there was no doubt about that.

[Alison Stewart]

That is such a great thing to.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Know when you're a teenager.

[Alison Stewart]

You knew this is what you wanted to do.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes. That's a. I don't know if it's a chance. That's a big chance. Yeah. To know after that it's lots of work, but that's a big chance. I agree.

[Alison Stewart]

When you first read the script for the Substance, what was your first reaction?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Well, there is a funny story because the executive producer called me and he said, okay, I Have that script with lots of prosthetics. Would you like to read it? Said, yes, sure. But you know, they always say that and sometimes, you know, you end up doing just only a couple of things. So I said, yeah, sure, send it over. And then I read the script and I was like, oh, that's incredible. That's terrific. I have to do that movie. So I was the one crawling back at him saying, oh, I have to. Please let me do the movie. That was my startup.

[Alison Stewart]

What were some.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

How were the visual descriptions written into the script?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

So for instance, for the monstro, the. The monster at the end of the movie, it was clearly written that Elizabeth Sparkle's face was. Was. Was stuck on the back of the monster with that scream, terrible screaming face that was written down, but it wasn't written that. She, she, she. But she wasn't described apart from that. So. So it was a little bit of. Of both worlds.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

You told the LA Times that you sat with a director for three days, just going over all of the different looks.

[Alison Stewart]

What was helpful about that process?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Well, you read the script, but that's only a start. And then you really need to. To understand what's inside the director's mind. And worlds are just only the beginning. Because sometimes you can have just a couple of words, but it's going to be like an epic sequence. Or sometimes you think something very big in the movie, but the director will say, it's going to last only a few seconds. Don't worry too much about that. So that was really important.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

It's interesting because so many of the effects are practical effects. Why was it so important to you and the director that the effects be mostly practical?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

That's a good question. When that. When she was watching the movie, she wanted to touch what she was seeing on screen. And I guess that's. That was why we did that that way. That was the whole point, to have a very organic journey in a way, while watching the movie. It's all about flesh and, I don't know, turning into weird things. And it's gooey and it's full of wrinkles and boobs and whatever. So, yeah, I guess Connie wanted that to the movie.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Let's start with the back birthing scene where we see sue sort of emerges from Elizabeth's. That is Mark Quality's character versus Demi Moore's character. Why is that the place you wanted to start? It was the first thing that you worked on. The back birthing scene.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes, that's correct. And that was lots of fun. I don't Know, what can I say? We used. Used different kind of makeup effects for that. We used silicon dummies. They were a bit like big, realistic puppets. And we had raised sets, and with my team, we were below the set and we were perpetuating this dummies of the rippling effect and the back splitting open and all that. So that was one part of the effects. And then we had really big prosthetics that we applied on the actress for all the stitching and the big wound and all that. So it was using different techniques depending on the shot.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

For many of the shots, you created moles and scans of the actors in this film. What does that allow you to do in your work?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes, we used a little bit of everything we used. Yeah, it's true. We used digital sculpting and scan and 3D printing, but we also used very traditional techniques. We used to do background in the days we used to full bodies. And it's really difficult for the actor to stay for two hours while people are trying to live. Cast your body. It can be a very difficult experience and very physical, and you don't want to put anybody through that. With scan, you can just. You know, what we use is photogrammetry, and it's a system. You just take 200 pictures at the same time.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, wow, that's really interesting.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

That's fascinating. So you don't torture anyone?

[Alison Stewart]

Well, sometimes you do have to torture them. They have to sit as the molding is applied to them. It could take an hour. It could take up to seven hours. What do you do with an actor for all of those hours where they have to sit there and they have to be still?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes, they do. When we apply the prosthetics, when we glue the prosthetics, blend the edges, paint and color all the appliances by wigs and all that, it's quite time consuming. That's true. And yes, they have to sit still. The best is when they. They're. They follow what you're doing. You know, sometimes you want. Sometimes they can fall asleep, but sometimes you want them to be awake because you want them to close their eyes, look up from. For me, and whatever. And we do breaks, obviously, and you have to be very aware. And if you can feel or sense that there is something wrong of that you just have a break. And, you know, sometimes you're gonna. You're gonna chat, and sometimes you're gonna feel that they want to stay in character. Anything. They don't want to speak, so you just stick to your work. Depending on the yeah, you. We are working on human beings, very sensitive human beings. So you also need to be careful sometimes. You. We are so focused because it's so technical, we tend to forget a little bit about that. But you have to keep that in mind all the time.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

My guest is makeup artist Pierre Olivier Poussin. He's Oscar nominated for his work on the substance. So when sue doesn't respect the balance of the substance, Elizabeth's body begins to show rapid aging. At first it's a finger, and then it's more and more. What sort of research did you do into how the body begins to look as it ages? Especially that finger?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Well, for the finger, actually, it was. I didn't research anything. It's just. It just. It was a. It came naturally. And we had to find a balance between realism and fantasy. Kohali, like, we wanted the characters to be believable and the prosthetics to be believable, but also Koali wanted to be free and to go crazy if needed. And so that was a fine line between that. So we researched the effect of aging on full bodies, on naked bodies, and we looked for hunchback. Real people. And then you, You. You feed yourself with all that, but then you. You try to. To come up with your own design. So some movies, you. You're gonna have to do very realistic things because. But that movie, we have that little. Yeah, fantasy license.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

We got a call from a listener with a really important. Good question. It says, how do you apply it the same every day so there's no continuity issues ever?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

That's a very good question. What we do is because, okay, we. You start with a live cast or scan of the face. For instance, you sculpt the. The new character on top of the live cast. So, for instance, the demi. More makeup. And then we take moles of the sculpture. So from those molds, we are able to cast silicone appliances that we're going to apply every day on the actress. So If I have 40 days of shooting, I will be able to cast 40 sets of prosthetics from those molds and apply them. So the appliances are going to look exactly the same because they all. They all come from the same mold. So each day the makeup is going to look exactly the same.

[Alison Stewart]

There's a New Year's Eve sequence, and I'm not giving too much away, but body parts start coming off at one point. What went into creating that effect?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Which one are you referring to?

[Alison Stewart]

For example, when her ear falls off. Oh, her ear falls off.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Sorry. So sorry. Spoiler. It's my fault. I feel terribly guilty. Now you just try to do your best to glue down the ear and cover it with an appliance and yeah, camera angle will help a lot in the final scene.

[Alison Stewart]

As long as we're giving away spoilers. There is this giant monster. We see this Elias sue, maybe something else. This big creature. It's got body parts and face parts and all kinds of parts. Was there actually an actor in a suit for that sequence?

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Yes, yes, yes. We had Margaret Qualley inside the suit. And for all the wider shots and all the, well, the most complete nose parlor, most complicated shot, we had a stunt double. So yes, it was a suit and a prosthetic makeup applied on her face.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

It's interesting though.

[Alison Stewart]

I knew it was mark quality in the suit, but you can see it.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

In her eyes and I thought that was really interesting.

[Pierre Olivier Persan]

Precisely. I had a lot of discussions with Koali when we were prepping the movie and I was like, okay, the suit is going to be difficult to wear. We should use the stunt double all the time. And Koali was like, I want to use Margaret for the close ups because it's really a performance and the character, the, the monster is really tragic. I mean, it's, it's. What's happening to the character is really tragic at the, during the movie and, and she wanted to see her eyes. Eye. There's an eye. She really wanted to see what the character was coming through.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my conversation with Oscar nominated makeup artist Pierre Olivier Poisson. He is nominated for his work on the horror movie the Substance. Up next, we finish the hour by talking about bringing ancient Rome to life in Gladiator 2 through costumes. Stay with us.

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