Saad Mohsini (3:10)

Your first obstacle to get a license? We were told by the minister, you know, technically you can get a license. So then I would, you know, I had a folder and I was going from office to office trying to secure that license.

Alison Stewart (3:24)

What were you told?

Saad Mohsini (3:26)

Well, there's one bit in the book, I was literally kicked out of his office. He said, get lost, I don't want to see your face again. And then, of course, we were, we were just basically hoping that eventually we'll get this piece of paper which would allow us to launch, which we did eventually, but we actually, we broke the ice for everyone else. A system was then developed by, pretty much by us. And in the years that followed, something like, you know, 2, 300 licenses were issued for both television and radio. So it was actually one of the success stories of Afghanistan.

Alison Stewart (3:57)

What did you want to do differently with your media company or. Now, let's, let's start then, and then we'll talk about now.

Saad Mohsini (4:09)

Well, you know, we thought, you know, this is a good way to, to impact things and to give people a voice and, and, and give people what they wanted. Which at that time was music, some news, chit chat. Afghanistan's population, the median age was 17, which was, and actually Afghanistan remains the youngest country outside of sub Saharan Africa. But then again, of course, we could borrow from experiences in other countries. So the formats we chose were not, you know, they wouldn't be alien to you. Mixing music, news in the morning, traffic reports and eventually on television, there were soap operas. We had our own version of Dr. Ruth. Late in the evenings, you know, people could call in and, you know, people's aspirations and fears and, you know, tastes are not dissimilar. I mean, since then we've launched an African, South Asia in the Middle east and so forth. But it's extraordinary how similar we are as people.

Alison Stewart (5:12)

Before you started in this, you were in banking. Yes.

Saad Mohsini (5:14)

Correct? Yes.

Alison Stewart (5:15)

What made you pivot?

Saad Mohsini (5:17)

Well, I, you know, we thought, myself and my siblings, let's go back and see if we can, you know, do something, contribute something to Afghanistan. And for a lot of us who were sort of exiled, we always had this feeling we would like to go back and we needed to go back. We were very different to the sort of immigrants who immigrate consciously and they understand they'll never go back to Italy or Greece or wherever. But we thought that we would go back and we felt, let's invest in A few sectors and be passive investors. But media was especially the small radio station was so controversial that we literally had to. It sort of dragged. Dragged us into the business and then we couldn't leave.

Alison Stewart (6:01)

It was controversial because everything.

Saad Mohsini (6:03)

Music. Why are women in the studio? Why are they laughing? Why are they joking? You know, why are they speaking to each other in a casual manner? And why they're not more formal? So everything. I mean, even if you look at the situation today and I ask myself this question, why are people so against fun, for example, enemies of fun? And now, especially when you look at the directives from the Taliban trying to silence women, you know, make women disappear from the public space. I mean, why is it. What compels men to do this? Then you see similarities. And when you look at, you know, individuals in your country commenting on women's rights to do X, Y or Z, there's a bit in the book, and I quote my, that every man has a bit of the Taliban in them. And so anyway, the last few years has given me the opportunity to reflect and to write about this extraordinary experience we were lucky to have and what to do next.

Interviewer 2 (7:12)

Yeah, there's a part in the book when a female reporter can't get the attention of anyone. She's got to be covered. She can't get somebody to respond to her. Is it the UN where she get the.

Saad Mohsini (7:25)

She goes to a ministry.

Interviewer 2 (7:26)

That's it.

Saad Mohsini (7:26)

To get an interview and then she's basically kicked out. Yeah, I mean, that's what they have to face on a daily basis. We've gone from eight journalists to 20 journalists the last three years. So we've increased our quota for female journalists just because I think it's important for us to continue to do that. So despite these decrees and bans and so forth on the ground and particularly in the major cities, the situation is a little bit more nuanced than what you would see or hear about outside. So women are still active, they're still working, but with severe limitations. You know, they have to wear a surgical mask to cover their faces. People don't take their phone calls, they're screamed at, you know, but they keep going. I mean, this is what's extraordinary. There's, you know, enormous, you know, courage from these young women.

Alison Stewart (8:19)

My guest is Saad Mohsini. Book is called radio free a 21 year odyssey for an Independent Voice in Kabul. So you started Armand FM and then you moved over to TV news, is that. Yes.

Saad Mohsini (8:31)

So Armand FM was in 2003. Our first television was in 2004. And then, you know, second and third TV networks followed another radio network. All of them were national. And then, of course, online, digital and so forth. And then we also went outside and we set up businesses outside the country. But it started off with that radio station.

Alison Stewart (8:53)

How did you expand your listener base and your viewership?

Saad Mohsini (8:57)

You know, we've been very blessed in that we didn't even have to do much marketing. I mean, the radio station, we had these test signals for a couple of weeks and I thought, I should go back to Australia to see my kids. And my brother rang me up and said, listen, these things are out of control. You have to get back immediately. So the test signals, you know, word of mouth, it spread so quickly, and similar thing with television. And, you know, so we, you know, because there was this huge appetite for the things we were doing.

Alison Stewart (9:27)

Yeah. What was the response? How did people react?

Saad Mohsini (9:31)

It was mixed. I mean, it was controversial. And then I always asked myself the question, but are they listening? Are they watching? If they are and they're complaining, you know, we're doing something right. But it's also, I think at times you have to take a risk. You know, this whole format of, you know, male, female, DJ chatting and, you know, just, you know, you know, normal banter that you would listen to in the US and elsewhere was quite controversial. But it's amazing how quickly it was adopted and accepted.

Alison Stewart (10:09)

Instead of revisiting the start of the group. That's a little later on the book. The book begins in 2022 with a Taliban, a raid on the Mobile Kabul offices. What happened that day?

Saad Mohsini (10:23)

Well, you know, they. So they banned soap operas, but the process was sort of long winded. We said, well, these soap operas are quite, you know, they're Turkish soap operas, period dramas. It's about an Islamic sultan. It should be acceptable. And they said, well, no. And then we kept on airing it and eventually they said, no, it's banned. And then we pushed our luck and I think we continued to sort of do what we've done for the last 20 years, which is to push the envelope. And then they raided our offices and they took a couple of our guys away. And then they said, you can't report on this.

Alison Stewart (11:00)

That's right. That's right.

Saad Mohsini (11:02)

So we thought, well, stuff this. We have to report on this. It's newsworthy. We had the story on our major bulletin, the 6pm news, and that's when they raided the officers and they attempted to arrest our Heather News. A real gentleman. Actually, there's an interview with him by Christian Amanpour from a few years ago. And you know, that's where I start the book.

Alison Stewart (11:32)

You said you wanted to push the envelope. What was your example of you pushing the envelope?

Saad Mohsini (11:39)

Well, I mean, I think you gotta be careful in terms of how much you can push. Obviously we get things wrong and nowadays increasingly those decisions are made by people on the ground. I have no right to impose my will. They're the ones who have to face these individuals on a day to day basis. Well, when you're told not to do something and then you do it, but you do it in a way that you can get away with it, I think that's probably the best way of doing it.

Alison Stewart (12:07)

How do you cover such delicate topics like the Taliban to Taliban activities?

Saad Mohsini (12:13)

Well, you know, it's not a monolithic movement. So there are individuals within the Taliban movement who are sort of more pragmatic. And so you have to explain to them, listen, this is newsworthy. If you know, these four governments, the Aussies, the, you know, the Canadians and the Germans and so forth have come out saying that through the icj, we're going to pursue this matter in terms of women's treatment by the Taliban and we're going to sanction individuals. You cannot run that story. For us to have credibility, we may as well shut down the operation. So I think you go with that story and if you're pursued, then you try to explain to them and logically make them understand. But that's not the way things work out, unfortunately. But it's a day to day, it's like a tug of war that goes on between us and the authorities. Some you win and some you don't.

Alison Stewart (13:11)

How about gender issues? Do you discuss those or.

Saad Mohsini (13:14)

Absolutely. I mean, it's one of the things that really upsets them because we've had, you know, I think at one stage we had had like two or three thousand stories from 2021 since they imposed the ban on girls education, discussing why women can be educated in Islam and why women should be educated. Why should, you know, why should they have equal rights? And then we, you know, we try to be clever about it. We identify individuals from within the Taliban conservatives who actually advocate for girls education. So that's the way that you pursue the story. But of course they, they get very sensitive because they think, well, you're trying to divide us.

Alison Stewart (13:59)

Oh, interesting.

Saad Mohsini (14:00)

You're, you're, you're being divisive in the way you're trying to pit certain members of the movement against others. But it is the truth. I mean, the Majority of the Taliban do not want their girls to stay at home. They want them to go to school. But certain individuals, the more conservative ones, are advocating for complete and total ban of girls from high school at least. And I've argued that engagement, talking to some of these pragmatists, perhaps as one, should be one option. Not recognition, of course, not legitimizing the movement, but at least being able to explain to them that what you're doing is unacceptable to the world. I mean, no country on the planet will accept these types of bans. Not even Iran, not Saudi Arabia. The most conservative Muslim countries do not have these types of bans.

Interviewer 2 (15:05)

What kind of protections do you have for journalists at your stations, at your radio station, at your news station to keep them protected from the Taliban?

Saad Mohsini (15:18)

We have none. There are no safety nets. And this is why it's so scary. I mean, we're completely, totally exposed. Whereas in the old days the international community was active. Well, it was corrupt, but we still had a judiciary of sorts. There are opposition members in parliament who would support media. But now, I mean, there are individuals within the movement itself. But it's a sort of the way that they operate. You know, they're very, they attempt to be very united. They don't really second guess each other, they don't challenge each other, not certainly not publicly. So we gotta be very careful.

Interviewer 2 (15:58)

My guest is Saad Mohsini. We're talking about Radio free Afghanistan. A 21 year odyssey for an independent voice in Kabul. In the book you write, I have never lost hope in Afghanistan or in the potential for Afghans to change our country for the better. And you got a little bit of this spirit from your parents, from listening to your parents. What stays with you about what they taught you or what they modeled for you?

Saad Mohsini (16:25)

Well, it's, you know, the love of the land of the people, I think that's really important. But also the sort of, you know, orally you relate the family history and those stay with you. But I also have really fond memories of my childhood in Afghanistan. The orchards, the fruit, you know, the food, my cousins, the warmth of the people. But even talking to people like Tom Freston, my friend, I knew him, you knew him, who lived in Kabul in the 70s. There was something, something unique about the place. John Lee Anderson, a well known war correspondent. I asked him once and it's in the book. I said, what's it about Afghanistan you like? He said, the sky is so high. And I thought, well, this is a weird answer. And then I realized it's A place where you feel free. It's a mountainous country. The people are very. I don't who it was. Was it Kipling or someone, Byron, who said it's the only country in Asia where people don't have an inferiority complex. So there's something confident about the people. A country that was never colonized. But even now, I think that people will experience that warmth in the place, Even despite the 40 years of conflict, despite the Taliban rule. It's a very unique place. And I don't say this as an Afghan. I just think, you know, having lived in so many different places, I think Afghanistan is quite unique like that.

Alison Stewart (17:58)

What do you think is the future of independent journalism in Afghanistan?

Saad Mohsini (18:03)

That's a good question. I mean, it remains a young country. You know, something like 80% of the population is under the age of 20.

Alison Stewart (18:11)

It's amazing to think about that.

Saad Mohsini (18:12)

Yeah. And the population's growing at 3% per annum. It's doubled in size since 2001. And the people of Afghanistan today are very different to the Afghans of 2001. So the Taliban are discovering that they're ruling over a country that has been changed by 20 years of international engagement. And I put this to, and I ask myself this question, of course, is who will change who? Will we change them or will they change us? And already you notice that they're changing in the cities and they're going to restaurants with their families and they're a little bit more open, but not that you can take that for granted in any way. What's next for you, surviving in Afghanistan? It's important to, for as long as possible to persist. It's, you know, we do a lot of education programs. We obviously inform people, we entertain people, but we also get, you know, people find out about Afghanistan because of people like us. Because there's only a handful of journalists now in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is no longer in the news. People seem to not care that much. So it's important for us also to get the news out for the world to see what's going on in the place.

Alison Stewart (19:27)

The name of the book is radio free a 20 year odyssey for An Independent Voice in Kabul. It is by my guest, Saad Mohsini. Thank you so much for joining us and telling us about your story.

Saad Mohsini (19:39)

Thank you for having me on Abessa Helpad, Lewis Capaldi partnered with BetterHelp to.

Alison Stewart (19:47)

Get word out about how important therapy can be.

Lewis Capaldi (19:50)

I struggle most weeks to get myself up and ready and go to therapy or whatever, even open the laptop to talk to my therapist. Sometimes can be really difficult, but I do it because I realize how important it is for me to continue to feel good. I felt the best I've felt in a long time through therapy.

Saad Mohsini (20:08)

Learn more about online therapy@betterhelp.com this is.

Ira Flato (20:11)

Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, the science Friday team has been reporting high quality science and technology news, making science fun for curious people by covering everything from the outer reaches of space to the rapidly changing world of AI to the tiniest microbes in our bodies. Audiences trust our show because they know we're driven by a mission to inform and serve listeners first and first and foremost with important news they won't get anywhere else. And our sponsors benefit from that halo effect. For more information on becoming a sponsor, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.