Tony Nom Favorite: 'Oh, Mary!'

Summary

All Of It: Tony Nom Favorite - "Oh, Mary!"

Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Director Sam Pinkleton, Actor Conrad Riccora
Release Date: April 15, 2025
Podcast: All Of It by WNYC

---

Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart delves into the vibrant New York City theater scene on the brink of the Tony Awards. Focusing on the highly acclaimed play "Oh Mary!", Stewart explores its Off-Broadway success and subsequent Broadway debut at the Lyceum Theater. The episode offers an in-depth conversation with Director Sam Pinkleton and Actor Conrad Riccora, providing listeners with behind-the-scenes insights into the production's creation, challenges, and its reception amidst a bustling Tony season.

---

"Oh Mary!" - A Theatrical Phenomenon

"Oh Mary!" is a darkly comedic play penned by Cole Escola, presenting a fictionalized and whimsical portrayal of Mary Todd Lincoln and Abraham Lincoln. The narrative centers on Mary’s struggle with alcoholism and her aspirations to become a cabaret star, juxtaposed against Abraham Lincoln’s immense pressures during the Civil War. This unconventional take blends historical figures with farcical elements, creating a unique theatrical experience.

Key Plot Points:

• Mary Todd Lincoln (played by Cole Scola) exhibits erratic behavior, such as tearing up her husband's office in search of whiskey ([Transcript: 00:15]).
• Abraham Lincoln (played by Conrad Riccora) attempts to manage the Civil War while dealing with his wife's antics and his own repressed desires.
• The introduction of acting lessons for Mary leads to unforeseen and comedic complications ([02:59]).

---

First Impressions and Laughter

Both Sam Pinkleton and Conrad Riccora express their initial reactions to the script, highlighting the play's humor and compelling nature.

• Sam Pinkleton:
  “The first time I read the script, it's the only time I've ever read a play and laughed out loud, like, howling laughter... I've never laughed so hard reading something.” ([02:59])

• Conrad Riccora:
  “I read the script for Omar back in November, and I was just giggling like an idiot... I was like, you have to read this script. It is so just. Yeah. Again, like Sam said, it was the first time I was dying laughing from just reading something.” ([03:22])

These enthusiastic responses set the tone for the production's journey from humor-laden script to a beloved stage performance.

---

Directorial Vision and Production Challenges

Sam Pinkleton discusses his approach to directing "Oh Mary!", emphasizing the balance between comedy and the underlying gravity of the characters' circumstances.

• Sam Pinkleton:
  “Part of what's so special about what Cole has written is it's not just a spoof... It's a beautifully constructed play about a woman who wants something so, so bad... my job was to get all of these people on board to both embrace the hilarity of it, but to find gravity in it and to take it really seriously.” ([04:04])

This duality ensures that while the audience is entertained by the humor, they also connect deeply with the characters' struggles and motivations.

---

Portraying Abraham Lincoln with Depth

Conrad Riccora delves into his interpretation of Lincoln, balancing historical reverence with the play’s comedic elements.

• Conrad Riccora:
  “To me, it is deadly serious. The best comedies... are people that are in the biggest predicaments because it not only causes you to laugh, but it also pierces you, like, through your heart at the same time.” ([05:37])

Despite the farcical setting, Riccora emphasizes the character's profound internal conflicts, ensuring Lincoln remains a figure of depth and authenticity.

---

Scaling Up for Broadway

Transitioning from Off-Broadway to Broadway posed unique challenges. Sam Pinkleton highlights adjustments made to preserve the play's essence while accommodating a larger venue.

• Sam Pinkleton:
  “We added a lot of seats... the job going to Broadway was just about honestly, like, reconnecting to the truth of it, taking it even more seriously than we took it downtown.” ([06:34])

The move to the Lyceum Theater allowed for enhanced production elements, such as advanced lighting, which Sam mentions adds a new dimension to the performance ([07:48]).

---

Vocal Training and Physical Comedy

Although "Oh Mary!" does not involve singing, Riccora touches upon the importance of vocal training and physicality in his performance.

• Conrad Riccora:
  “I went to school to do this for three years and that involved a lot of vocal training... repetitive, boring work makes you great.” ([08:28])

This rigorous preparation underpins the actor's ability to deliver both comedic and emotionally charged performances seamlessly.

---

Crafting a Cohesive Narrative

The play’s structure is lauded for its tight plotting and character-driven surprises, distinguishing it from typical sketch or gag-based comedies.

• Sam Pinkleton:
  “Cole Escola has created a structure that is just airtight. It's thrilling... There is a very kind of traditional... bones are so good...” ([10:04])

This solid foundation allows for unexpected twists that feel organic to the story and characters, enhancing the overall theatrical experience.

---

Exploring Abraham Lincoln's Vulnerabilities

Conrad Riccora explores the complexities of Lincoln’s character, particularly his vulnerabilities and the contrasting dynamics with Mary.

• Conrad Riccora:
  “Mary... reminds Abe of a carefree, whimsical time from his past that he's not able to. He loves and loathes her so much because he's taken on the responsibility of being the president during the worst crisis in our nation's history.” ([11:28])

This intricate portrayal adds layers to Lincoln, making his interactions with Mary both humorous and poignant.

---

Handling Sensitive Themes with Care

The play touches on Abraham Lincoln's repressed sexuality, a subject Conrad Riccora approaches with sensitivity to avoid mean-spirited humor.

• Conrad Riccora:
  “I'm queer... my radar for it being mean or damaging is higher than anyone else's... I trust their sensibility, and I also trust my own sensibility.” ([12:48])

Riccora's personal connection ensures that the comedic elements related to Lincoln's sexuality are handled respectfully and authentically.

---

Emotional Investment in Performance

Riccora shares his journey from finding the script hilarious to deeply embodying Lincoln's serious struggles.

• Conrad Riccora:
  “In the first couple of weeks of rehearsal... I was having a hard time with breaking... but then the predicament that Abraham Lincoln is in started seeping more and more into my flesh and my bones.” ([13:47])

This evolution highlights the transformative power of theater, where humor and tragedy intertwine to create a compelling narrative.

---

Designing Iconic Visuals

The playful and distinctive wig worn by Mary Todd Lincoln became a symbolic element of the play.

• Sam Pinkleton:
  “The wig went through many versions... we arrived at this wild wig that Cole lovingly talks about, the bratty curls.” ([14:37])

The wig not only enhances Mary's character but also serves as a memorable visual that resonates with audiences.

---

Balancing Comedy and Emotional Depth

A particularly challenging scene—the final saloon sequence—required meticulous effort to balance escalating tension with comedic elements.

• Conrad Riccora:
  “I feel like that one kind of bottling up everything that is simmering in the pot... it just clicked.” ([15:37])

• Sam Pinkleton:
  “What's actually happening here? What is the truth?... setting up the time and place took a lot of work and kind of messing with audiences expectations.” ([16:42])

This collaboration underscores the importance of maintaining narrative integrity while delivering laughter.

---

The Therapeutic Role of Comedy

Addressing the broader societal context, both guests emphasize the essential role of comedy in providing relief during stressful times.

• Sam Pinkleton:
  “Having this play as this wild space for people to just laugh... comedy is always the number one thing to save us.” ([18:26])

• Conrad Riccora:
  “Every time I've met somebody that has seen the show, they've just come up to me and said, thank you for making me laugh for 80 minutes. I really needed it.” ([19:45])

Their reflections highlight how "Oh Mary!" offers a sanctuary of laughter and emotional respite for audiences amidst contemporary challenges.

---

Looking Ahead

The episode concludes with a teaser for the next segment, featuring Megan Hilty from the musical Death Becomes Her, promising further exploration of this year's top Broadway offerings.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sam Pinkleton ([02:59]):
  “I've never laughed so hard reading something.”

• Conrad Riccora ([03:22]):
  “It was the first time I was dying laughing from just reading something.”

• Sam Pinkleton ([04:04]):
  “It's a beautifully constructed play... my job was to get all of these people on board to both embrace the hilarity of it, but to find gravity in it and to take it really seriously.”

• Conrad Riccora ([05:37]):
  “The best comedies are people that are in the biggest predicaments because it not only causes you to laugh, but it also pierces you, like, through your heart at the same time.”

• Sam Pinkleton ([06:34]):
  “Taking it even more seriously than we took it downtown.”

• Conrad Riccora ([12:48]):
  “I'm queer... my radar for it being mean or damaging is higher than anyone else's.”

• Sam Pinkleton ([18:26]):
  “Comedy is always the number one thing to save us.”

---

This comprehensive discussion on All Of It not only highlights the creative processes behind "Oh Mary!" but also underscores the enduring power of theater to reflect, entertain, and heal its audience.

Transcript

[Sam Pinkleton]

Listener support WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. Maybe you just heard before the news that we were talking to some of the folks behind Hell's Kitchen, the two time Tony Award winning musical based on how New York City helped raise Alicia Keys. And for this hour, we'll be staying in the theater district because we're on the precipice of this year's Tony season. Nominations come out on Thursday, May 1, which is when we'll find out which of the best Broadway productions from the past year get the nod. But there are some shows that theater aficionados are pretty sure will be getting their much deserved recognition. So we're going to talk about a few of them this hour. Later on, we'll hear from Megan Hilty, who stars in the musical Death Becomes Her. We'll also hear her thoughts on the film adaptation of Wicked. Hilty played Glenda in the stage production in both New York and Los Angeles. And that's coming up in a bit. But we'll start now with the highly fictionalized and ridiculous story of Abraham and Mary Todd Lincoln in Cola Scola's oh Mar. The first time we see Mary Todd Lincoln in the play oh Mary, she is tearing up her husband's office, desperately searching for a bottle of whiskey. That's because, well, she's a drunk with a kooky streak and with a dream of becoming a cabaret star. The play comes from the wickedly funny mind of Cole Escola. And as of last week, Cole is now back in the black dress and bratti wig, playing the salty Mary Todd in oh Mary, as is Conrad Ricc. He's playing President Lincoln. Lincoln is trying to win the Civil War while waging one with his wife and with himself trying to repress his desire for men to get Mary off the booze and to get her to shut up, Lincoln agrees to get her some acting lessons. She really is atrocious. But Abe doesn't care as long as it keeps her busy. Until those acting lessons set off a chain of events that Lincoln could not have anticipated. The show became a smash hit in its Off Broadway run at the Lucille Lortel Theater and it's now on Broadway. O Mary is running at the lyceum Theater through June 28th. Back when it first made its jump to Broadway, we invited actor Conrad Rickamora, who plays Lincoln, and director Sam Pinkleton, who had the job of guiding all of this theater madness. So let's dive in. I Started by asking Sam what his initial impressions were the first time he read Cole Escola script.

[Sam Pinkleton]

Oh, my gosh. The first time I read the script, it's the only time I've ever read a play and laughed out loud, like, howling laughter. Reading the play and it truly made me say, like, sign me up anytime, anywhere. I'll do it in a basement. You don't have to pay me. I've never laughed so hard reading something.

[Alison Stewart]

How about for you, Conrad?

[Conrad Ricamora]

Yeah, same. I'm sitting at my kitchen table right now, and this is where I read for the first time. I read the script for Omar back in November, and I was just giggling like an idiot, and my husband looked at me and was like, what is. What is going on? And I was like, you have to read this script. It is so just. Yeah. Again, like Sam said, it was the first time I was dying laughing from just reading something.

[Alison Stewart]

So, Sam, why don't you calm down, settle down. You realize I'm going to direct this thing. What did you see as your biggest task with the production? What did you see as a real priority?

[Sam Pinkleton]

Yeah, I mean, I think my biggest task was actually doing it. The honor of taking it seriously. Part of what's so special about what Cole has written is it's not just a spoof. It's not a sketch. It's not just a gag. It's a. It's a beautifully constructed play about a woman who wants something so, so bad. And a man, Abe Lincoln, who has enormous pressure on him and can't be himself. And, you know, the Civil War is kind of a stressful thing. And so my job was to get all of these people on board to both embrace the hilarity of it, but to find gravity in it and to take it really seriously. And, you know, Cole and everybody we've brought in loves theater in that way that you love theater when you're, like, 16 and you're performing in the Crucible and you think, no one's ever been better at being in the Crucible than me right now. And so with every designer, every actor, everybody, the job was, yes, of course, let's make this hilarious, but let's also make it dead serious. Which is why casting amazing actors like Conrad was so important.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah, Conrad, you know, you have all this historical weight behind Lincoln. You're playing a farcical version of him, but he still has all the weight, the history behind him. What were some of the choices that you tried to stay true to about the aspect of the real Abraham Lincoln? Even if this version is obviously, obviously fictional.

[Conrad Ricamora]

I did little research because Cole did very little research. And, you know, I mean, you said that I'm playing a farcical version. I actually don't think I'm playing a farcical version. To me, I agree that's what you're experiencing in the audience, maybe, but to me, it is deadly serious. I find that the. The best comedies that I like are people that. That are in the biggest predicaments because it not only causes you to laugh, but it also pierces you, like, through your heart at the same time. And that's kind of how I approached it. It's. I mean, the predicament for Abraham Lincoln could not be bigger.

[Alison Stewart]

When you found out you were going up to Broadway, Sam, what changes did you make, if any, to scale the show up?

[Sam Pinkleton]

Well, we. We added a lot of seats, first of all. But, you know, I mean, I think in some ways the show was always a big dog that thinks it's a small dog. And so the job going to Broadway was just about honestly, like, reconnecting to the truth of it, taking it even more seriously than we took it downtown. It wasn't like, hey, play to the rafters. Like, if you've seen the show, it's pretty big to begin with. It's kind of like very, very, very serious children's theater. So I wasn't too worried about it filling the big room, but I was worried about it feeling like, as you like, kind of just too farcical, too jokey. And in fact, we're on Broadway in a big, beautiful theater where UTA Hagen. And so I wanted to make sure that we looked at every choice and it made sure it was the most serious choice and the most honest choice for this story. And also there's some surprises that just embrace the beautiful scale of the Lyceum that you have to see to find out.

[Alison Stewart]

I've seen it downtown and I've seen it on Broadway, and it's the same show, but a little more. You get a little bit more. Use the lights. Let's just say that my guests are. I'm speaking with director Sam Pinkleton and actor Conrad Rickamore about their new show, O Mary. You know, in other productions we've seen with Lincoln, Conrad, you know, he's soft spoken. I mean, most manhunt recently, very soft spoken. A very decision that was made by the actor. You have to do a lot of yelling as I can. How do you protect your voice? How do you protect your singing voice? I mean, I know you don't Sing in this. But you've got a beautiful singing voice.

[Conrad Ricamora]

Oh, thank you. I went to school to do this for three years and that involved a lot of vocal training. I mean, the first year alone, we didn't really get to do. We didn't get to do any productions at all. We did some scene work, but all of it was, I mean, for an entire year, you know, for. To simplify it, we were laying on our backs making noises and finding out where things resonated and where to place things and finding, you know, it's very boring to talk about, but I think that, you know, a lot of doing a lot of repetitive, boring work makes you great. I started out as a tennis player when I was younger, and the amount of hours that you just focus on a cross court forehand allows you to then exist on a court and be free. The same way that doing those hours laying on your back in a studio allows you to exist on stage and be free. But it's very boring to talk about.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, that explains the Arthur Ashe sweatshirt.

[Conrad Ricamora]

Oh, yeah, Yours opens coming up. I can't wait.

[Alison Stewart]

Sam, you mentioned this earlier, that this, that the show doesn't feel like a lot of skits or twists stuck together with a little bit of glue. What do you think is the most effective thing about the way the show is plotted?

[Sam Pinkleton]

I mean, Cole Escola has created a structure that is just airtight. It's thrilling. It's like an old fashioned play. And so there are real surprises in it, but there are surprises that come from the stakes of the characters and the truth of the characters. Like any good play, like, I mean, we're talking about Arthur Miller or whatever. So there is a very kind of traditional. It's kind of an old fashioned play that has all of this icing on it that is shocking and hilarious and contemporary and perverse. But the bones are so good, which frankly is, I think why it's so playable for these great actors is it's not gags. It's surprises that come from circumstances and from the reality of these people who, as Conrad says, are people under enormous, enormous pressure and in wild predicaments that we as an audience get to enjoy because we come in maybe with some historical attachments, whether the events of O Mary are true or not.

[Alison Stewart]

So let's talk about Abraham Lincoln. Conrad, he sort of has a little bit of a manipulative streak. He can get people to do what he wants. Except Mary. Mary will not do what he wants. Why is Mary his Achilles heel?

[Conrad Ricamora]

Oh, I think Mary, you know, Reminds Abe of a carefree, whimsical time from his past that he's not able to. A person he's not able to be anymore. And which is why he loves and loathes her so much because he's taken on the responsibility of being the president during the worst crisis in our nation's history. And they. There's this, his companion is somebody that I really do think that they were in love and fell in love. But he has got a bigger predicament than their marriage now to contend with. And I think that that's why it's so crazy making for him.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, you know, in this show, he's dealing with repressed sexuality. He's making deals with God about the Civil War if he'll help him win. How did you keep the jokes about Lincoln's queerness from being mean spirited?

[Conrad Ricamora]

Well, I'm queer, so as me, Conrad Rickamora, so that my radar for. For it being mean or damaging or is. Is higher than. Than anyone else's. So. And I also, like, I know Cole's comedy from 10 years ago when I first saw their mom orange juice spoof on YouTube and then have followed them for years. And I trust their sensibility, and I also trust my own sensibility. So it wasn't anything that I was necessarily like, oh, we gotta watch out for this, because I live it every day.

[Alison Stewart]

Conrad, when you're on stage during one of these real physical moments, have you lost it yet?

[Conrad Ricamora]

I have to say, in the first couple of weeks of rehearsal downtown back in January, and then previews, I was having a hard time with breaking because I find Cole to be so funny. But then the predicament that Abraham Lincoln is in started seeping more and more into my flesh and my bones. And then it just. Now it's like I don't even worry about it anymore because it is so. To me, it is. I'm seeing it through his eyes, and it's just so deadly serious every moment on stage for me as the actor seeing it through his eyes.

[Alison Stewart]

Sam, how did you decide on the wig for Cole? Just that big old bun on top of the head with all the ringlets, you know.

[Sam Pinkleton]

Cole, unsurprisingly, had very strong feelings about the wig, as they should. And the amazing, amazing Leah Lucas, our wig designer, the wig went through many, many, many, many, many versions. And Cole was really fierce, and I think we all were fierce that, like, it should look like a wig and it should be ridiculous, but we should also feel like she chose this. Like, this is how she wants to look. And over many, many, many versions, downtown, we have arrived at this wild wig that Cole lovingly talks about, the bratty curls. And, yeah, it's sort of accidentally become iconic. There is a bust of Mary Todd Lincoln in the wig in the lobby of Elysium now.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, you know, as you're talking about this play, it's really obvious that comedy is hard work. What's a scene or a moment that you really had to work with? You had to work hard to get it right?

[Conrad Ricamora]

You want me to go first?

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah.

[Sam Pinkleton]

Go, Conrad.

[Conrad Ricamora]

Oh, yeah. I think that the last scene in the saloon, I think that, to me, it was that. I feel like that one kind of bottling up everything that is simmering in the pot. You know, I found a lot of times, I find as an actor that you just have to. At first, you have to put the energy into the space. You have to let the energy that is all there just be there out loud. And then eventually, you have to put the lid on it and that process, because it is so hot at that point, the temperature is so hot at that point that putting it back in the pot was. Was difficult for a couple of weeks. And then all of a sudden, it just clicked. And I don't really know how or why. It just did.

[Alison Stewart]

How about for you, a point when you had to make a director's decision? That was hard.

[Sam Pinkleton]

You know, I co sign Conrad's entirely, and it's such a, like, theater y thing for me to say. But I, you know, anytime we've had trouble, it's like, oh, the truth will set you free. It's like we've just had to dig deeper and deeper and deeper. Like, what's actually happening here? What is the truth? I mean, I'll say Downtown, you know, we went through many different versions of the opening scene because I, in my position as the director, I'm outside watching it. I was like, oh, my gosh, these people have no idea what they're getting into. Like, some people are like, this is gonna be a, you know, SNL skit. And some people are like, is this a real play about Abraham Lincoln? And, you know, there's just so many expectations. And the curtain opens, and it's like, what? What do we do? And we realized the play used to open with Mary Todd Lincoln, but we realized, oh, first we have to meet Abe, and we have to understand that Abe has an incredibly hard job and that Abe's. That the pressure is very high on Abe before we meet his wild wife. And Cole did a lot of rewriting. And we did a lot of trial and error and landed on this sort of micro scene that is kind of problems with the war. Just to make sure everybody understands, you know, this is a play that is set in a very specific moment in history that we have done nothing to really understand. But I think the time and place, setting up the time and place took a lot of work and kind of messing with audiences expectations right out of the gate.

[Alison Stewart]

You know, we're in such a stressful time right now. What role do you think comedy has and should play in tough times? Sam, what do you think?

[Sam Pinkleton]

I just think that, oh, boy, this is a soapbox that I could just twirl around on for hours. I mean, I'll just say, you know, people will make what they want of this play. I'm sure we could go into the streets and find people who are like, I hated that very top Lincoln play. And that's fine. But the feeling of sitting in the Lyceum every night for the last three weeks and feeling 900 people roar with laughter has felt more restorative than anything I could have anticipated about bringing this play to Broadway. It feels like relief. It feels like we're just being ambushed with horror by the minute. And for 80 minutes, we get to be in a room with other physical humans just laughing. And I didn't. I mean, I think that comedy is always like the number one thing to save us. Always, always, always. And I take that very seriously. But in this moment, having this play as this wild space for people to just laugh, I don't know. I'm so curious what your experience on stage has been, Conrad, because it's frankly been quite emotional to feel people come in from their days and just laugh.

[Conrad Ricamora]

Yeah. I mean, Alison, when you said this is such a dire, stressful time in our country, doing it on stage is a different experience from meeting people off stage and seeing how they. How it's being received doing it on stage. The actual high stakes currently add to the pressure that of playing these characters in terms of what they're going through. But offstage, every time I've met somebody that has seen the show, they've just come up to me and said, thank you for making me laugh for 80 minutes. I really needed it.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my conversation with actor Conrad Rickamora and theater director Sam Pinkleton. After the break, we'll hear about another of this year's top Broadway offerings, the musical Death Becomes Her. It stars Megan Hilty, who will talk about how the camp movie made it to the stage. Stick around. This is all of it.