Podcast Summary: All Of It – Top TV: Dark Winds

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guests: Zahn McClarnon (Lt. Leaphorn), Jessica Matten (Bernadette Manuelito), Kiowa Gordon (Jim Chee)
Date: January 2, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of All Of It dives deep into the acclaimed AMC series Dark Winds, a slow-burn thriller set in 1970s Navajo country. Host Alison Stewart is joined by the show’s three leads—Zahn McClarnon, Jessica Matten, and Kiowa Gordon—for a candid discussion on the importance of authenticity in Native representation, character growth, and the behind-the-scenes community that makes the series special. As the show gears up for its fourth season, the conversation offers a mix of personal insights, cultural context, and behind-the-scenes anecdotes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of Setting: Navajo Country

• Zahn McClarnon (Leaphorn) on the Land’s Role

  • Emphasizes that for all Native nations, “the land itself... is very sacred. It's the basis of our culture. So that adds quite an element in Dark Winds being set on the Navajo reservation.” (01:04)
  • Performing on location enriches the actors’ connection to their roles:
    • “As an actor being out in those elements, you know, it helps me form my character quite a bit.” (01:36)

• Kiowa Gordon (Jim Chee) on Environmental Authenticity

  • Draws parallels to his own upbringing on the Walapai reservation:
    • “We’re stewards of the Grand Canyon... It's nice to be able to feel the heat of the sun on your face and back, you know, sweating for real. You're not in a green screen studio.” (01:41)

2. Community Among Native Artists

• Jessica Matten (Bernadette) on Lasting Connections
  • Describes how ties among Native actors transcend projects:
    • “It's very typical in Indian country that we all stay in touch... It’s like you could just call someone up... So that's what I did with Kiowa when I moved to Los Angeles. And, yeah, we became like siblings as we are.” (02:18)
  • Playful rapport among the cast:
    • Kiowa: “We're a secret. Third thing.” (02:59)
    • Zahn: “I'm the dad.” (03:01)

3. Character Evolution and Internal Conflict

• Jim Chee’s Journey (Kiowa Gordon):

  • Rejects past expectations of assimilation and leans into his roots:
    • “I think stripping away his belief that going to the FBI and graduating from Berkeley... assimilation was the way to go, to not be in pain anymore, to get past our shared traumas... In season three, he's back on the NTP with Leaphorn, and that gives him a sense of belonging, more than he's ever had in his life.” (03:20-04:11)
  • This season, Chee confronts long-buried demons.

• Bernadette’s Strengths and Growth (Jessica Matten):

  • On resilience:
    • “I think her strengths are being resilient and being a strong Navajo woman amongst... a role that, historically speaking, was mostly a man's job and doing it back in the 1970s.” (07:49)
  • On stepping out of her comfort zone in season three:
    • “She's out of her element. And true to form, a lot of natives that leave the reserve for the first time really are truly out of their element... You get to see a lot of her weaknesses... just merely from stepping outside of what she knows.” (08:16-08:36)

• Leaphorn’s Leadership (Zahn McClarnon):

  • On nuanced morality:
    • “Just watching the gray areas, the moral gray areas that Joe has to deal with this season.” (09:17)

4. Pursuing Authentic Representation

• Building on Tony Hillerman’s Work

  • The original novels were written by a non-Native, yet the series seeks to go further in authentic representation.
  • Zahn McClarnon on authenticity:
    • “We employ some wonderful cultural consultants... Jennifer Wheeler and Manny Wheeler. They're involved from the script writing to the props to the hair to the wardrobe. Our writing room is Native... with Navajo writers as well.” (04:29)
    • “We're doing things that only a few other TV shows have done... Authenticity is very important, not just to me and as an EP, but to the whole show. We've got crew that are native, and... we're employing more native talent behind the scenes, in front of the camera.” (05:01)

• Caution About Representing Navajo Culture:

  • McClarnon reiterates respect for Navajo culture but draws a line:
    • “We're not spokespeople for their culture. We're just actors.” (05:46)

5. Cast Dynamics & Roles

• Why Zahn Signed On

  • Mentions the appeal of the production:
    • “We have George R.R. Martin and Robert Redford as EPs... Chris Eyre... To work with legends like that... was a pretty easy decision for me.” (06:17)

• Leaphorn and Chee’s Relationship

  • Kiowa Gordon explains the evolution:
    • “I was a little wet behind the years coming in season one... Leaphorn just really... He got your number, right?... It's a nice dynamic, kind of like father and son and also, you know, boss and subordinate. Sometimes, you know, we like to role play.” (07:02-07:44)

6. What to Look For in Season 3

• Easter Eggs & Character Details:
  • Gordon: “Pay attention to glass case in the little elementary school or middle school... You'll see a picture of a young Chee who beat Billy Mills, Olympian Billy Mills in a track meet.” (09:02)
  • McClarnon: “Just watching the gray areas... that Joe has to deal with this season.” (09:17)
  • Matten: “Seeing a side of... her vulnerability and a big shout out to kind of one of the bad guys who’s someone I really, really respect as a veteran actor in this biz too.” (09:34)

7. Looking Forward: Renewal & Directing Debut

• Season 4 Renewal Confirmed
  • “Yes.” (10:02)
• Zahn McClarnon Will Direct
  • “AMC asked me if I was interested in directing and it scared the heck out of me and I said yes. So yes, I will be directing for the first time in my career and I've got a great team that are going to support me.” (10:11)

Notable Quotes

• Zahn McClarnon on setting:
  “The land itself... is very sacred. It's the basis of our culture. So that adds quite an element in Dark Winds being set on the Navajo reservation.” (01:01)

• Jessica Matten on Native community in Hollywood:
  “It's very typical in Indian country that we all stay in touch with one another… whenever we go to a different city or country, you know there's almost like you could just call someone up and be like, ‘hey, it's another native in town. Come out for coffee.’” (02:18)

• Kiowa Gordon on Jim Chee’s growth:
  “He kind of had this idea that just assimilation was the way to go, to not be in pain anymore... In season three... he’s confronted with these demons that have been thrust to the past. You know, he's ran from it. Now he has to really confront it head on.” (03:20)

• Zahn McClarnon on the show’s values:
  “Authenticity is extremely important to us, to represent the Navajo people, their culture, in an accurate way and to respect it. So we employ some wonderful cultural consultants…” (04:29)

• Jessica Matten on Bernadette’s challenges:
  “You get to see a lot of her weaknesses, so to speak, just merely from stepping outside of what she knows.” (08:16)

• Zahn McClarnon on directorial debut:
  “AMC asked me if I was interested in directing and it scared the heck out of me and I said yes.” (10:11)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:01] Zahn on the spiritual and cultural significance of setting
• [01:41] Kiowa on environmental authenticity
• [02:18] Jessica on Native artistic community
• [03:20] Kiowa describes Jim Chee’s growth
• [04:29] Zahn on the show's push for authenticity
• [06:17] Why Zahn signed onto the series
• [07:02] Chee and Leaphorn’s evolving relationship
• [07:49] Bernadette’s strengths and vulnerabilities
• [09:02] Character easter eggs and what to watch for
• [10:02] Confirmation of Season 4
• [10:11] Zahn will direct for the first time

Memorable Moments & Tone

• The camaraderie between cast members shines throughout—playful jokes and familial terms (“dad,” “uncle,” “siblings”) create a warm, inviting dynamic.
• The episode balances thoughtful reflections on cultural responsibility with insider stories and laughter, reflecting the show’s own blend of seriousness and humanity.
• Genuine gratitude and humility flow from the cast, particularly about the stewardship of Native stories and the breakthrough of a Native-centered production in mainstream TV.

Final Thoughts

Listeners will come away with a deeper understanding of how Dark Winds sets a new standard for Native representation in television—on screen and behind the scenes. The cast’s insights highlight not only the series’ plotlines, but the vital importance of setting, community, and authenticity both in the story and in real life.