Understanding The Origins of Our Tears

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It — "Understanding The Origins of Our Tears"

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Episode: Understanding The Origins of Our Tears
Air Date: May 20, 2024
Host: Koosha Navadar (in for Alison Stewart)
Guest: Pepita Sandwich, visual artist and author of The Art of Crying: The Healing Power of Tears

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the uniquely human phenomenon of crying, exploring its emotional, cultural, and biological dimensions. Special guest Pepita Sandwich shares her artistic and scientific inquiry into tears, offering insights from her illustrated book. Throughout the episode, listeners call in with personal stories of their most memorable cries, adding real-life nuance to the discussion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Origins and Inspiration for "The Art of Crying"

• Pepita's Crying Diaries: Pepita began tracking and illustrating every time she cried after moving from Buenos Aires to New York City in January 2020, initially as a way to process loneliness and change.
  • Quote: "I've always been a big crier. I say that I'm a serial crier... But when I moved from Buenos Aires to New York, it was the first day of 2020...I decided to start my crying diaries." (03:07)
• The COVID-19 lockdown intensified her reflection, prompting questions about the evolutionary and emotional role of tears.

Science and History of Tears

• Types of Tears: The book and conversation highlight three types—basal (lubricate the eyes), physical (response to irritation or pain), and emotional (unique to humans, contain additional stress hormones).

  • Quote: "We have basal tears... physical tears, which are related to physical pain... and in humans, we have emotional tears." (10:50)

• Cultural Evolution of Tears: The perception of crying has varied across eras. In Ancient Greece, tears were seen as pleasurable and expected; in Ancient Egypt, they held ritualistic and agricultural significance.

  • Quote: "In ancient Greece, tears were expected and also kind of like a pleasure from the mind... in ancient Egyptian times, tears were part of rituals and very sacred waters..." (05:04)

• Tears as Communication: Crying evolved as a visual signal to others that we need help, making it a key tool in social bonding.

Art and the Visualization of Crying

• Pepita’s background as an illustrator shapes her exploration of tears. She believes comics and visual metaphors help universalize personal experiences and make emotional discourse more accessible.
  • Quote: "Drawing, for me, is very cathartic and in a way, kind of like a meditation... illustration... expand[s] that kind of research because it's not only words, but you're seeing a visual metaphor." (07:02)

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Listener Stories: The Many Faces of Tears

Crying From Pain (Sarah, Brooklyn)

• Sarah recounted crying during a complicated labor, consciously choosing to cry as an "outlet for stress and pain."
  • Quote: "I remember very distinctly thinking, this is when people cry. You cry as an outlet of your stress and of pain. And it is a relief..." (09:09)

Crying From Art & Joy (Ken, Park Slope; Koosha Navadar)

• Ken shared he cried at the finale of the TV show "A Gentleman in Moscow," exemplifying how stories move us to tears.

  • Quote: "Last night... at the finale of A Gentleman in Moscow... it was very, very emotional. It was sad and tragic." (12:41)

• Host Koosha admitted to joyful tears during his wedding, relating it to the cathartic value the Greeks attached to crying.

  • Quote: "For me, it was two weeks ago at the ceremony of my wedding... when I listened to her start, it just started for me. And like you said, it was almost enjoyable." (08:15)

Embarrassment, Empathy, and Social Norms (Alicia, Westchester)

• Alicia grappled with feeling embarrassed about frequent crying, having once felt ashamed of her father’s openness with tears.

  • Quote: "I used to be ashamed of my dad, who was like that, but now... I cry because I'm happy or because I'm sad..." (13:50)

• Pepita contextualized embarrassment as a product of societal norms that stigmatize crying, advocating for changing negative language around tears.

  • Quote: "I think we feel embarrassed because we've been taught not to cry for so long and I think we need to change that now." (14:22)

Grief and Necessity (Maria, Brooklyn)

• Maria, recently widowed, described frequent, intense tears as a "necessity" for handling loss.

  • Quote: "It's almost like a dam that wants to burst... I'm not sure what I would do if I didn't cry... it seems like a necessity almost." (17:33)

• Pepita reflected on how tears help us process milestones, both joyful and sad, sharing her own recent experiences with familial illness coinciding with her book release.

Place-Based Crying: Crying in Public and in New York

• Pepita extolled New York as the world’s best city for crying—one can both find anonymity and connection in public spaces.

  • Quote: "New York City is one of the best cities to cry in the world... some. Someone told me that New York City is our cry ground..." (19:36)

• Examples: The Metropolitan Museum, Central Park, and even the subway.

• Texted listener:

  • "You're not a real New Yorker until you've cried in public." (20:37)

Unexplained Tears During Exercise (Anne, Fairfield)

• Anne asked why she sometimes cries while running on the treadmill, even when not sad. Pepita explained this might be the body physically processing stress or emotion, much like the phenomenon referenced in a Taylor Swift lyric.
  • Quote (Pepita): "Those are also physical... because you are releasing stress through sweat... your brain needs to release that, you know, that physical stimuli... through tears." (21:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Tears evolved as a kind of signal to other people that we need help." — Pepita Sandwich (05:04)
• "Drawing, for me, is very cathartic and in a way, kind of like a meditation." — Pepita Sandwich (07:02)
• "This is when people cry. You cry as an outlet of your stress and of pain. And it is a relief." — Sarah, Caller (09:09)
• "Crying is there for us in every important milestone. It lubricates births... when we lose someone... tears are present." — Pepita Sandwich (18:19)
• "There is sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power..." — Listener quoting Washington Irving via text (22:55)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Introduction to Pepita and her book | 01:32–03:07 | | Origins of the crying diaries | 03:07–04:50 | | Science and history of tears | 04:50–06:46 | | Importance of visual art in processing crying | 06:46–08:15 | | First caller—Crying from pain (Sarah) | 09:09–10:50 | | The biological and emotional function of tears | 10:50–12:15 | | Crying due to art & joy (Ken, show host) | 12:15–13:49 | | Embarrassment, empathy, and social norms | 13:49–16:07 | | Grief and crying as necessity (Maria) | 16:07–18:19 | | Crying in public spaces (NYC) | 19:33–20:37 | | Crying during exercise (Anne) | 20:48–22:19 | | Episode wrap-up and notable listener quote | 22:19–23:13 |

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Episode Tone & Concluding Remarks

The episode thoughtfully interweaves scientific insight, art, and lived experience, maintaining an open, empathetic tone throughout. Pepita Sandwich and Koosha Navadar engage with callers in a supportive, often playful way, modeling the vulnerability that their subject calls for. The conversation affirms crying as a powerful tool—one that communicates, heals, connects, and reveals what matters most.

Final Words

• "Thank you so much for having me. And happy tears to everyone." — Pepita Sandwich (23:13)

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Recommended for: Anyone interested in emotional health, art as therapy, anthropology of feelings, or simply feeling less alone in their tears.

Transcript

[Megan Roop]

Are you ready to change your mind about your body? We are flipping the script on fitness making movement that feels good and fits your life. I'm Megan Roope, celebrity trainer and founder of the Sculpt Society. I created this online fitness platform to be uplifting and flexible. With sculpt, strength and dance cardio classes. From a 10 minute quickie to a 50 minute sweat, you will find programs for every stage of a woman's life, including prenatal, postpartum, bridal and more. Start your two week free trial at thesculptsociety.com podcast.

[Koosha Navadar]

I' ma put you on nephew.

[Caller/Host]

All right, unc.

[Pepita Sandwich]

Welcome to McDonald's.

[Caller/Host]

Can I take your order, miss?

[Koosha Navadar]

I've been hitting up McDonald's for years.

[Caller/Host]

Now it's back.

[Koosha Navadar]

We need snack wraps.

[Caller/Host]

What's a snack wrap? It's the return of something great. Snack wrap is back.

[Pepita Sandwich]

Our state has changed a lot in the last 140 years. We know because Multicare has been here guided by a single purpose, making our communities healthier. That comes from making courageous decisions, partnering with local communities to grow programs and services, and expanding healthcare access to those who need it most. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn more@ multicare.org listener supported WNYC studios.

[Koosha Navadar]

You're listening to all of it. I'm Koosha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. A brand new illustrated study of crying explores how the uniquely human trait is both healing and transformative. In the book, visual artist Pepita Sandwich talked about moving from Buenos Aires to New York City, writing down and drawing every time she cried. The science of crying. Varying cultural opinions about who should be allowed to cry and where. It's titled the Art of Crying. The Healing Power of Tears and it's out now. Author Pipita Sandwich joins us today. She is an Argentine illustrator and visual artist born in Buenos Aires and she trained in Vermont at the center for Cartoon Studies and currently resides in New York City. Pepito, welcome to all of it.

[Pepita Sandwich]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here sharing all things crying. So, yeah, thank you so much.

[Koosha Navadar]

Absolutely. It's such a pleasure to have you here. And listeners, we want you here in this conversation too. When was the last time you remember crying and where and what was the reason? Were they tears of sadness or happiness? Does crying make you feel any better or are you someone that avoids crying? Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-96. That's 212-433-WNYC. So, Pepita, let's get into the book. What inspired you to make the Art of Crying? And how did the concept evolve from an idea into a completed book?

[Pepita Sandwich]

Yes, so the Art of Crying. The idea for the book came up around four years ago when I moved from Buenos Aires to New York. So I've always been a big crier. I say that I'm a serial crier because every, you know, since I was a little kid, I was crying because of everything, like misunderstandings or, you know, also if I was getting, you know, fighting with someone. So I really, really cried a lot during my whole life. And I wanted to hide my tears. Like, I didn't feel comfortable crying in public. But when I moved from Buenos Aires to New York, it was the first day of 2020, and I found myself alone in my empty apartment. And because I'm an illustrator, I always carry around a sketchbook. So I decided to start my crying diaries. So I started writing and drawing every time I cried, and I kind of felt a little bit more connected to my tears. But I, you know, two months in, everything changed. And of course, we know, the pandemic hit, and I found myself in this new city, very small, strange, new environment, and I was locked down and crying a lot. And I wanted to know what meant to cry. And I found out that humans, we are the only ones that cry because of emotions. And I wanted to know at what point in evolution we connected tears with the physical, you know, with the emotion. So a physical reaction with the emotion of feeling sad or happy or. Or overwhelmed. So I decided to start researching about crying.

[Koosha Navadar]

And a cool part of the book for me was not, not just talking about crying, but the history and the science behind crying. Like you mentioned, was there a fact or some part of history that you discovered that was interesting that most people wouldn't know about when it comes to crying?

[Pepita Sandwich]

Yeah. So what I wanted to know if, you know, besides knowing at what point in evolution we connected tears to emotion, I also wanted to know if we had a moment in history where tears were kind of like in vogue or something, expected. So I found out that throughout the centuries, really, the perception of tears change. So in, you know, ancient Greece, tears were expected and also kind of like a pleasure from the mind. And during, you know, ancient Egyptian times, tears were part of rituals and also very sacred waters for, you know, the farming season. So tears really have changed and how we perceive tears really change throughout time. And I also, you know, wanted to know why it became taboo to cry and why we Try to hide our tears. And it's really interesting because, you know, there's different opinions and research on crying, but there's not a lot. There's still a lot of mystery around tears and the biological role that tears have, because our brains are pretty mysterious still for researchers, but they know that it's a kind of connection. So tears evolved as a kind of signal to other people that we need help. So there's a lot of very, very interesting facts. And also tears related to art and music and all these different art pieces that it's, you know, wonderful.

[Koosha Navadar]

And it's interesting that you bring up that it's a signal evolutionarily, a visual signal. Your book is very visual. Obviously, you're an illustrator. Why did illustrations feel like a good medium through which to describe the act of crying and to talk about the subject?

[Pepita Sandwich]

Well, yeah, I'm a visual artist, so a lot of my processing is very visual. I find that drawing, for me, is very cathartic and in a way, kind of like a meditation. So when I started, you know, researching and writing about crying, it felt very natural for me to illustrate it. And as you say, like, tears are visual. So we see people in tears, and we kind of, like, feel connected to them, and we feel more. You know, we feel a reaction, and sometimes we need to help these people that are in tears. So I think for me, drawing all this research and my own crying journey, it was very important because it was a form of processing. But also, you know, for me, comics have a very very. It's a very powerful medium. So a lot of people can relate to personal experience that become more universal through comics and through drawing. So I think, you know, the illustration, the illustrations in the book expand that kind of, like, research because it's not only words, but you're seeing a visual metaphor. So, yeah, there's like two layers to the book. The words, but also the drawings.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to Papita Sandwich, who is a visual artist and an author. Her book is called the Art of Crying, the Healing Power of Tears. It's out now, and we're talking about crying and what crying means to you. When was the last time you remember crying and where? I can tell you, for me, it was two weeks ago at the ceremony of my wedding was where the last time that I cried, my sister was reciting a poem in Farsi. And when I listened to her start, it just started for me. And like you said, it was almost enjoyable. Kind of like how the Greeks Described it, like you were saying, very cathartic. If you're listening right now and you have an experience that you want to share about crying, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. We've got our first caller. Let's go to Sarah in Brooklyn. Hi, Sarah. Welcome to the show.

[Caller/Host]

Hi.

[Caller]

Thanks for taking my call. I can't believe I'm the first caller. I just had a. This wasn't the most recent time that I cried. This was like 12 years ago or 11 and a half years ago when I was in labor, and it was a complicated labor and I wasn't dilated, but they were checking to see if I was dilated. And I hadn't had any medication yet, any whatever. I can't remember what, you know, painkiller yet. And the resident, I remember very well. He stuck her hand inside to see how dilated it was. And the level of pain was unlike I had anything I'd ever experienced in my life. I mean, it was like my whole body was just like in a vise. And I remember very distinctly thinking, this is when people cry. You cry as an outlet of your stress and of pain. And it is a relief, you know, and a relief and also a release valve. And now, like, cry. This is the time to cry now. Cry, Sarah. Do it now and you'll feel better. And I did. And it was just really interesting that I sort of felt like I had to or not that I felt that I had to make a conscious choice, but that I wasn't. I wasn't. I didn't cry naturally, but I was.

[Koosha Navadar]

Like, you were choosing. You were, you were. You were making a choice. Yeah, yeah.

[Caller]

I was making this choice because I thought, like, right, this is the body's response to pain.

[Koosha Navadar]

Sarah, I'm going to pause you there for time, but thank you so much for calling and for sharing that really important memory. Pain is a big part of it. Right. Pepita, is there any theme that touches on pain in your book?

[Pepita Sandwich]

Yes. So in the first chapter is the Science of Tears. So we know that there are three types of tears. So we have basal tears, which are the tears that we have in our eye and that keeps the eye moistured. So they help us see the world. We have physical tears, which are related to physical pain. And also we have. In humans, we have emotional tears kind of tears have different components. We know that emotional tears are unique to humans, and they have More stressors and other, you know, endorphins that are related to our kind of, like our humor, our mood. So that's why scientists kind of, like, suggest that emotional tears can help you, you know, feel better. But I think in this case, you know, when you're crying because you're giving birth, it's. It's both, I think it's physical and emotional. So, you know, tears come out whenever our brain feels overwhelmed, where our emotions are so, so powerful that we cannot process them. We need to really. We need a physical release to process that big emotion. So it can be anything from seeing something super beautiful, like, you know, a concert, like hearing very beautiful music, or seeing a painting, or experiencing a wedding or a birthday where kind of, like, our emotions are so heightened that we need to have this physical release.

[Koosha Navadar]

We have some callers that I think are going to touch immediately on that. Let's go to Ken in Park Slope. Hey, Ken. Welcome to the show.

[Caller Ken]

Hey, Kushan. How's it going? Wait, Kushan, did I have. Do I have your name right?

[Koosha Navadar]

Kusha, but that's very close. The end is in the Navadar, but no worries. Yeah, no, but, Ken, tell us about crying.

[Caller Ken]

I actually know another Cusha.

[Koosha Navadar]

Wow.

[Caller Ken]

But that's irrelevant.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah.

[Caller Ken]

Last night.

[Caller/Host]

What?

[Caller Ken]

At the finale of A Gentleman in Moscow, a excellent series on Paramount Showtime, was very powerful, and I definitely found myself tearing up, as did the protagonist played. Played excellently by Ewan McGregor. And I'm sure a lot of people watched the show all eight episodes. And last night was. Was the. Was the finale. And it was. It was very, very emotional. It was sad and tragic.

[Koosha Navadar]

Ken, thank you so much for. For calling and sharing that. And you know, Pepita, it goes directly into what you were talking about. Ken felt a lot of emotion, and the way to handle that was. Was to cry. Folks, if you're just joining us, this is all of it on wnyc. We're talking to Pepita Sandwich about the book the Art of Crying, the Healing Power of Tears, which is out now. We've got Alicia in Westchester. Hi, Alicia. Welcome to the show.

[Caller]

Hi.

[Caller/Host]

Thank you. Hello, I'm Alicia. I'm from Uruguay, the other side of the lake, as we used we say. And I'm interested in your book because I cry a lot. I used to be ashamed of my dad, who was like that, but now.

[Pepita Sandwich]

I am the same way.

[Caller]

You know, I cry because I'm happy.

[Caller/Host]

Or because I'm sad. I became very emotional, and it's very embarrassing. I find. I don't Know what you think about it.

[Koosha Navadar]

But thanks so much for that call, Alicia. Yeah, tell us about that. Like the social norms maybe.

[Pepita Sandwich]

Yeah. So I think we feel embarrassed because we've been taught not to cry for so long and I think we need to change that now. We've been through so much together, you know, especially in the last few years. And I think crying because of other people's pain can be very powerful and can be very, you know, hopeful for our future. So in that sense, I also used to feel more embarrassed about my tears. Now I try to let them out, but I think it's very normal to feel embarrassed and we need to, yes, start talking more positively through, you know, a more, more a nicer language. So usually crying is mocked, you know, like a crybaby or don't cry like a little girl or all these things we have in our language also help, you know, with the embarrassment that we feel. But I think like actually, you know, when we are little children, we cry because we need our parents when we are babies, we need our parents to survive and those same connections we need when we are grown ups. So our actually our emotions start getting more complex and when we are, you know, little kids, we cry because of more physical related pain. But as we grow up, we start crying because of empathy. And there, there's some research that says that people that cry more are, you know, more prone to help other people are more prone to speak up because of injustices or things are not right. So I think crying, it's really, really a power. And if you cry a lot, I think you have a really important, you know, emotional tool available to you.

[Koosha Navadar]

Yeah. Well, let's go to Maria in Brooklyn. Hi Maria, welcome to the show.

[Caller/Host]

Hi. My husband died on March 7. We had been married a very long time and I find that the tears continued to be quite frequent and sometimes really intense. And I look at pictures of him or I remember things we did and it just like it's just a kind of a waterfall. And I threw myself a small birthday party at the beginning of May and when it came to, you know, make a wish and blow out the candles, it was terrible. I mean, I couldn't think of anything but wanting him back, no matter how irrational that was. So I kept trying to hide my tears, but people knew they were. I was crying anyway. But yeah, it's, I think almost like I couldn't imagine not crying now. It's like I let go for a little while or I'm not overwhelmed by the sadness for a little while.

[Koosha Navadar]

Maria I'm so sorry to hear about your loss. When you think about that crying, talk about it a little bit. What does it allow you to do on the other side of crying where you say that you. You didn't say you look forward to it, but it sounds like it's something that's a tool for you.

[Caller/Host]

Yeah, it's almost like a dam that wants to burst, but I let it sort of come out a little bit at a time. I'm not sure what I would do if I didn't cry in terms of my feelings of sadness and grief about the situation. So it seems like a necessity almost.

[Koosha Navadar]

Maria, thank you so much for that call. Again, we're so sorry about your loss. And for what it's worth, happy postponed birthday there at the beginning of May. Pepita, you hear this wide range of experiences from a TV show to the loss of a loved one. Crying shows up in many ways, right?

[Pepita Sandwich]

Yes. So crying is there for us in every important milestone. It lubricates births. And also when we lose someone or we are dealing with a very hard situation, tears are present. And I think if we pay attention to our tears, we can find things that matter to us. So I think, you know, grief is obviously something that's universal. We all go through changes and losses, and I think it's important that we cry them out. And we, you know, have all these feelings released by our emotional tears. But, you know, we can also find love in our tears. And when my book came out last week, my dad went through surgery. So it was one of my hardest moments in life because my dad is far away and I wanted to be with him. But I was also happy for my book. So it was, you know, life has a way of mixing all these things together, and we are not in control, and we have to kind of, like, be present. And tears help us do that. Tears really, really show us what is important.

[Koosha Navadar]

Are there places that you really like to cry in New York City?

[Pepita Sandwich]

Yes. So I feel like New York City is one of the best cities to cry in the world. And, you know, with the book release, I asking people around New York where was their favorite place to cry. And there were all these different responses. But for me, like, I love crying in museums, so the Metropolitan Museum is one of my favorite place places to cry here, but also, like, the Central park or around nature, where I feel calm and like, I have this, you know, open space with a lot of fresh air. But I think, you know, some people, some. Someone told me that New York City is our cry. Ground because we are all these people from all over the world living the same space. And it feels like we are listening but also not care. We don't care about what other people are doing. So it's like the perfect mix of if we want to look for support, we can find that. But also if we want to be by ourselves crying and enjoying a cry on the subway, we can do that.

[Koosha Navadar]

Well, it's interesting. We just got a text that reads, you're not a real New Yorker until you've cried in public. Perfect. Let's go to Anne in Fairfield. Hi, Anne. Welcome to the show.

[Caller Anne]

Hi, how are you? I'm a longtime listener. Thank you. And this is such a great topic for me because in the last few months, I'm on the treadmill at the gym. I don't think I'm unhappy and I'm just crying, and I'm not sobbing. The tears are coming. And it's kind of weird because I'm around lots of people and nobody knows I'm crying, but I can't stop crying. And I. It's baffling to me. So I'm so glad that I could maybe ask this question.

[Koosha Navadar]

What's that question?

[Caller Anne]

Why would I. Why would I be crying when I'm doing something that I like, that I'm not really grieving anything? I'm. I like the treadmill.

[Koosha Navadar]

Well, it sounds like the treadmill might be a place where you cry. Any. Any idea?

[Pepita Sandwich]

So some people have come to me and, you know, they tell me that they cry at the gym. And I think those are also physical te in some way because you are releasing stress through sweat. But some people also cry in a, you know, you're releasing all these endorphins. And actually, you know, exercise helps with mood and, you know, the, the release of stress and crying is another way of doing that. And I think when you're enjoying your exercise but you're also working hard, sometimes your brain needs to release that, you know, that physical stimuli or that physical workout through tears.

[Koosha Navadar]

And I also want to point out that the Taylor Swift song Down Bad mentions crying at the gym. So I bet there is some kind of physical activity element of it, too. Kind of like the dams are breaking. We have to end there for time. But I just want to thank everybody who was able to call. We weren't unfortunately able to get to everyone, but I thought I'd share a great quote that just came through as a text to end Dafond. This came through. A listener says. Thought I'd share a great quote There is sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but of power. They speak more eloquently than 10,000 tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. Washington Irving We've been talking to Pepita Sandwich, the visual artist and author. Her book the Art of Crying, the Healing Power of Tears is out now. Beautiful drawings, beautiful message. Pepita, thank you so much.

[Pepita Sandwich]

Thank you so much for having me. And happy tears to everyone.

[Megan Roop]

Are you ready to change your mind about your body? We are flipping the script on fitness making movement that feels good and fits your life. I'm Megan Roop, celebrity trainer and founder of the Sculpt Society. I created this online fitness platform to be uplifting and flexible with sculpt, strength and dance cardio classes. From a 10 minute quickie to a 50 minute sweat, you will find programs for every stage of a woman's life including prenatal, postpartum, bridal and more. Start your two week free trial at thesculptsociety.com podcast.