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All Of It with Alison Stewart
What is the Best Stephen King Novel? Let's Rank Them
00:30:29
In honor of the anniversary of the publication of Stephen King's debut novel 'Carrie,' we attempt to rank some of King's best books.
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- [00:00]
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Neil McRobert
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Neil McRobert
Listener Supported WNYC Studios.
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Koosha Navadar
This is all of it. I'm Kusha Navadar in for Alison Stewart. Coming up on today's show, we'll talk about how to read and write poetry with Uchena Dukka. He's a poet and instructor at the New School. We'll play a contribution to our Public Song project and talk about how you can get involved. Plus, drill down on some issues surrounding intellectual property and the arts. And musician Melissa Aldana will join us for a listening party. That's the plan. So let's get this started with your favorite books. By Stephen K. April marks the 50th anniversary of Stephen King's first novel, Carrie. And you're probably familiar. Carrie stars a sensitive teenage girl with supernatural powers. It became an American classic, four film adaptations, a TV special, even a Broadway musical. Yes, a lot of people would call Stephen King one of the most prolific writers of our generation. In the 50 years step. Since his debut novel, Stephen King has written a whopping 75 books, ranging from classic horror novels like the Shining to short story collections to even fantasy. I mean, he's a titan. He's defined a generation of horror writers and creatives. Even our guest Yesterday novelist K T Wen cites his work as one of her influences. And Today's guest, Neil McRobert, is a king Die Hard. In an article for Esquire magazine, Neil has read and ranked every single one of Stephen King's books. Neil, I hope you had a library card when you're getting all those books. Plus, Neil is the host of a popular horror writing podcast called Talking Scared, and He has a PhD in contemporary horror fiction. So it's safe to say that he's the person to talk to about Stephen King. And that's why, on the 50th anniversary of Carrie, we're revisiting some of Neil's favorite and least favorite Stephen King books. Hey, Neil. Welcome to all of it.
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Neil McRobert
Hi, Koosha. How you doing?
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Koosha Navadar
Good. So much. I'm so happy that you're here and we can talk about Stephen King novels and listeners. We also want to hear from you. What's your favorite Stephen King novel? Is there one that really sticks with you? Is it one of his classics like the Shining? Or it? Or do you have an underrated book that's your favorite? Maybe there's one that gets better every time you reread it. We're talking with writer and critic Neil McRobert, who's ranked all of Stephen King's books. So share your thoughts, give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212433, W NYC. Or hit us up on our social channels. We're at all of it wnyc. So, Neil, you describe Stephen King as not only a writer, but quotes in industry, an esthetic, a genre of one. So what makes him earn these titles in your mind?
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Neil McRobert
Oh, wow. I mean, I speak to a lot of horror writers. Every week I speak to a different, you know, prominent name. And there is nobody in the 180 episodes I've done, there is nobody who isn't in some way inspired by Stephen King. Sometimes, very rarely, it's a negative inspiration where people are trying to do something different. But even that is inspiration by proxy, because something different kind of shows that. That King has made horror very much his own. So many films. It's not just the books he writes, the books, they grow tendrils. There are films, there are TV shows. There was a musical with John Mellencamp back in the day. There's no real pop cultural avenue. The man hasn't gone down and in many ways made his own. He set the zeitgeist for decades when.
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Koosha Navadar
Was the first time you encountered his work? Was it like love at first sight for you, or I guess, love at first read for you?
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Neil McRobert
I. I get asked this question a lot, and I. I don't actually have a firm memory. I do know that the. My first ever interest in horror as a. As a sort of fiction, as a. As a genre was my dad on a holiday when I was 8 years old, telling me the story of Carrie. I don't know why he was telling me this story. I was eight years old. It was wildly inappropriate, but he did. And I just found it so fascinating. And then I remember reading it, which is still to this day my favorite book by magnitude. Too many to mention. It's, you know, I love that book to distraction. And then it was just from then on, I just couldn't get enough.
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah. And there's a lot to get through. I mean, 75 books, that's a lot to rank in this sheet. Did you have some type of score sheet? How did you. How did you even get through and keep track of them?
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Neil McRobert
I. I did have a score sheet because I'm a massive, massive nerd. The backstory of that article that isn't made clear in the article is that I once spent a year, well, it was actually 16 months reading nothing but Stephen King in chronological order. I didn't read anything in between. I read them all. I'd read them all before, except for a slight few that I read for the first time, but I read them all in order to. And I kept a note on my refrigerator. I ranked them all out of 100. And so I consulted that when it came to writing the list. But I didn't abide by my original rankings because every time I come to do this exercise of ranking these books, Even the top 10, it's a different list. I mean, that was my opinion on that given week, in that given year. I mean, you asked me today, it'd probably be a little bit different.
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Koosha Navadar
What were some of the metrics that you used to rank them?
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Neil McRobert
Oh, that's. That's a good question. I think that's why it changed, because you can't really write an article like that purely on personal opinion of, you know, which books moved you the most, which one spoke to you. You've got to think about the cultural currency of it. So, for example, I possibly wouldn't have the Shining as high as I put it, possibly. Although I'm even doubting myself as I'm saying this. But you know that that book and that the Monolith that It is. And the film, even though I hate the film, you know, it's such a cultural cornerstone that to not have the Shining in the top 10 feels wrong. So I think I tried to weigh up my personal interaction with the book. For example, from a Buick 8, a really underrated King book that never gets mentioned is in my top 10 because I just adore it. But I also try to balance it against, as I say, the cultural work the book has done, the longevity of the tale, its impact and things like that.
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah, yeah, that, that combination of how it felt when you read it and the, the impact, like you said, that it had on there. And, you know, you got to do both because you cannot extricate King from, like you said, his impact on the genre. A titan of that way. We're talking to writer and critic Neil McRobert about the best Stephen King novels ranked, which he did for the esquire article, all 75 Stephen King books ranked. And, listeners, we're going to get to your calls in just a moment. And we want to know, what's your favorite Stephen King novel? Is there one that really sticks with you? Is it one of his classics? Or is there one that you feel like is underrated or maybe overrated? We have the person here to talk about it. Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433. W, N, Y, C. And, Neil, we've got a lot of calls coming in, so. So without further ado, let's go to Deborah in Sussex County, New Jersey. Hey, Deborah, what's your opinion on Stephen King? Do you have a favorite novel?
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Caller
Yes, I do. I have two. But before I do that, it's so appropriate. You're talking about Carrie and the 50th anniversary. I was very good friends with Isaac Asimov, the science fiction writer who had written over 500 books in his lifetime. And as such, he was always inundated with books that other authors wanted him to endorse. And a lot of those books he gave to me to look at, and one of them was Carrie. And I think I saw Carrie when it was still in its galleys or something. And I, I, I'm a born again Stephen King fan. But this, I tell you, this actually happened. So I read Carrie and I gave it back to Isaac, and I said, this author has no future because, you know, and Stephen himself, I know, threw it in the trash can before his wife Tabitha resurrected it, you know, but of course, he's gone on to, you know, amazing things. And my favorite novels of his are the, you know, immortal Shawshank Redemption, which may actually be a novella or a short story, and of course, the Green Mile, which was so innovative because he brought it out book by book. I think you're the expert. I think there were, like, 10 volumes altogether, and you had to purchase each book separately, I think, every few weeks to get the entire story. And like you, I also know how much Stephen hated the Kubrick production of the Shining. Because I lived in London. My mother was British, and I met the woman who went with him to the premiere of that in London. He walked out and he sat with her in his car, and they both got drunk.
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Koosha Navadar
Wow. Deborah, thank you so much for that call. A lot of great stuff in there. You pointed out Carrie. Neil, I'd love to dive into that a little bit. We heard Deborah talk about this story of allegedly, and I think this is accepted. But you correct me of Stephen King almost giving up writing it because he thought he didn't think the book would be successful. What made him keep going?
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Neil McRobert
Well, it was Tabitha. It was his wife. I've just written an article for Esquire about this to commemorate the anniversary. And I. I kind of framed it as a dedication to Tabitha King because she's such, you know, such a player in this game because he threw it away thinking that he could simply couldn't write as a, you know, mid-20s guy about, you know, young girls and menstruation and all the things that book is about. And he. He ditched the first however many pages. And Tabitha, as the story goes, some say he showed it to her. Other stories say that she found it in the trash, took it out and told him to go on and to carry on. And he did, thank God.
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Koosha Navadar
Was that a pun? Told her carry on. Did I catch that?
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Neil McRobert
No, I don't say it was.
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Koosha Navadar
We've got a lot of texts coming in. Let me just read a couple. Here's. From one listener, the Shining made so much impact that I had to travel to Mount Hood to see the motel. Another text, my favorite is Fairy Tale because it deals with the genre on many levels, including its history, philosophy, et cetera. And also another text that's coming in. The best Stephen King story is the Breathing Method. It had never been mainstream and is hidden in a Stephen King compilation called Different Seasons. The story climax, I consider, is one of his most shocking. Neil, I want to get to which one you ranked, I believe, is number one. Let's just go straight to the top of your list in your article, the best Stephen King goes to. Drumroll, please. It. Tell us why. I mean, it's a classic, but what is it for you?
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Neil McRobert
Oh, God. That book means. That book means so much to me. It. It's. It's actually quite hard to articulate. It's kind of weaved into my bones and my sinew. I, I read that when I was. I think I was around 12, 13, which is way too young, but also the. The age that most people who love that book first read it because he just captures the essence of childhood. And when you're a Brit like me, growing up in a, you know, a small British village and the horizons seem very close and very narrow, reading about this all American childhood in the, you know, the halcyon days of the, the late 50s, it's just so romantic. And I think this is the thing I've said a million times. But what I love about it, everyone, everyone gets focused on the clown. But that book is not about the clown. That book is about bravery and friendship and love and all the good things about life. And the clown is just the thing that you have to fight against to preserve those things. I think it's a book that is. It's a homage to all the best parts of being alive. I know it sounds really grandiose, but it's like a thousand page sonnet to joy and love. I love it so much.
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Koosha Navadar
And that is a line that you, you know, not verbatim, but you said that towards the end of the article and when I was reading it, I was wondering, is that a reflection in your opinion on Stephen King's writing in general, that he uses the horror genre as a way to reflect, like what you said, what is great about living love, et cetera, or is that really something special to it?
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Neil McRobert
Well, the reason I can answer this question declaratively is because I asked him it. I asked King, he came on my podcast and I asked him whether my theory is true, that he is not truly a horror writer. I think Stephen King is an American realist who uses the supernatural as a way to frame all the things he really cares about, which are all the things I just listed. He seems to really care about the best parts of humanity and he seems to believe that good will out. You know, that. That famous quote about the. The arc of moral justice bending. I can't remember the exact phrase, but you know the one I mean? Yeah, I, I think he believes in that. And I asked him outright is, are you somebody who cares more about this than the horror. Does that theory hold water? And he said to me it doesn't even leak. So that's his answer, not mine, but I think it's there in almost all of his fiction.
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah, the quote that you're looking for, and I just looked this up so I didn't pull it right off the top of my head. But it's Martin Luther King Jr. Who reminded us that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. Which is a lovely way to hear you talk about Stephen King. You had just discussed with it the idea of being young. And we have a caller here, Hannah in Brooklyn who has a. That might relate to that. Hannah, hi, welcome to the show.
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Caller
Thank you so much. Your guest might have just answered my question with the title it, but I was curious what he thinks about getting my 13 year old into Stephen King and maybe a couple titles that would be good, those good intro books.
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Koosha Navadar
Neil.
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Neil McRobert
Yeah, it's a great question because it really depends on your 30. On your 13 year old. Right. Because when I was growing up, I'm 40 now, being 13 and reading horror was not really frowned upon. I feel that we have slightly more safeguards about this stuff now. It seems to be the obvious one, but what people need to realize about it is it contains some very complex, I don't want to say problematic because that sounds damning, but complex themes around sexuality, around some quite extreme prejudice and racism. And I think it's a great book to read, to learn that those are things to be overcome. But I think it needs guidance. So I would say if you're going to get your daughter, your 13 year old, to read it, talk to her about it, you know, in the process. But on top of that, some other things. There's a fantastic novel he wrote called Eyes of the Dragon that he wrote for his own children, which is a fantasy story. It's kind of a riff on fairy tales reads kind of what we would now call YA or middle grade fiction, but with that Stephen King bite fairy tale that someone mentioned, you know, is also another riff on those slightly more innocent themes. Off the top of my head, the other one that will be wonderful. We've mentioned the collection Different Seasons, which is four novellas, the Breathing Method and Shawshank Redemption that also contains the novella the Body, which we may better recognize as the film Stand By Me, which is a slightly much briefer and slightly less challenging tale of body like young Friendship. So maybe start with those three.
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Koosha Navadar
Hannah and I hope that your, your 13 year old daughter enjoys it I remember I believe I was 13 when I read my first Stephen King novel, but it was Cujo. And I'm not sure that was the best move for a 13 year old, but you know, it's an entry into a great author nonetheless. We're talking to writer and critic Neil McRobert. He's the writer of the Esquire article, all 75 Stephen King books ranked. And listeners, we want to know what is your favorite or, you know, most underrated, most overrated Stephen King novel? Give us a call at 212-433-9692. After this quick break, we'll come back with some of the lower ranked titles on the list and we'll hear more from you. All right. We'll be right back after this. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Kusha Navadar, and we are talking to writer and critic Neil McRobert, whose recent Esquire article is all 75 Stephen King books ranked. And we're going through the rankings now, folks. So if you want to call or text us with your opinions, you can reach us at 212-433-9692. Neal, we've got some more callers. Let's hear from them. We've got Charlotte in Jersey City. Hey, Charlotte, welcome to the show.
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Caller
Hi. I had just moved to New York City in 1979 and read the Stand. I'd already read Carrie, but his vivid description of trying to make his group on his road trip, which I also love that it's not. A lot of his novels have a Road are based around a road trip. But crawling through the Holland Tunnel was just I had just moved there. So even to this day, every time I'm stuck in the Holland Tunnel, I think of that incredibly vivid scene of them trying to get through the Holland Tunnel after the plague and all the awfulness has happened. One other thing totally unrelated, but my father was an English lit professor who did reviews for public radio in Wisconsin and decided to review all the best sellers in the 80s. And of course, Stephen King was on them and he said, oh, that guy's a really, really, really good writer. And I said, yes, dad, for heaven's sakes. You know, the guy can really write.
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Koosha Navadar
Charlotte, thank you so much. And that's wonderful. I mean, that's a wild thing to hear about. The Holland Tunnel really stuck with you. Let's go to Gabby in Westchester. Hey, Gabby, welcome to the show.
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Caller
Hi. Thank you. I wanted to say Stephen King, wonderful novelist, so great. But I think where he really Shines is his short stories, his novellas. Like, I know a lot of people have mentioned different seasons. That was actually my introduction to Stephen King when I was like 16 years old. It was so good. But I think truly his most frightening and like jarring work is the Jaunt. And I think so many people don't know that story. It's such a good one. It's so terrifying.
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Koosha Navadar
Gabby, thank you so much. Neil, I heard you chuckle. What is it about the Jaunt?
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Neil McRobert
It's just, it's an existentially dreadful story. It's about sort of teleportation, time travel, and it's got just the most awful sting in the tail, if you think about it. Makes you kind of sick.
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Koosha Navadar
Well, you know, you told our producers Jordan and Aki that you have a few controversial rankings and Pet Sematary is a book that you ranked low on the scale. You said you didn't love it as much as some fans do. Can you give us a quick plot overview and tell us why it didn't work for you? Maybe why you think it works for others?
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Neil McRobert
So.
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Caller
Right.
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Neil McRobert
Typically it does work for me. I just, I don't love it. Some people would put that top five and it's just not for me. The plot in, in essence, a young family, husband, wife, two very young children move to Ludlow, Maine. They live at the side of a very, very busy highway. And at the back of their house is this pet cemetery with the intentional misspelling where when you bury things, they don't stay buried. And you know, as the famous quote from the film says, sometimes dead is better. And of course the family sustain an awful tragedy which remains one of the most awful things King has ever written. And then they take advantage of the graveyard and terrible things ensue. And it's not that I don't like, I think it's a wonderful book. It's just all the things we talked about with it, they aren't there in Pet Sematary. It's a bleak, black hearted, vicious horror novel. And I'm. I'm a horror fan, so I'm all for black hearted and vicious, but it's just not what I go to King for. So I think it's a masterful tale in doing what it does. I would rather read the other stuff, but I still think it's great.
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Koosha Navadar
Are there other books on the list that you think are pretty hot takes based on where you rank them?
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Neil McRobert
Oh, that's interesting question. Like I said, ranking From a Buick 8 so high is a very much Hot take. Because that's a neglected buckets of forgotten about title. If you did, if you ask the man in the street to list in King books, no one would say it. I adore it. Just and will always adore it. A book that gets a lot of love in recent years is Revival, which I just don't love. Again, really don't love that one. It has a wonderful ending, one of King's most evil and awful endings. But the book as a whole just doesn't float my boat trying to think about other hot takes. Because once you get to the middle of a list, I mean, the man's written 75 books, right? So you've got the 10 at the bottom, the 10 at the top and then in the middle, it's kind of where do you put things on any given day? And you know.
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah. And you know, it was wild. When I was reading your article, something I really appreciated from the article was seeing just those 75 books and understanding that he wrote these in 50 years. So why do you think he can write so many books in such a short fashion?
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Neil McRobert
If we knew that, we'd all bottle it and sell it. I, I don't know. I, I think he's just, you know, you have been born storytellers and you hear people say, I would write even if they didn't pay me to write. And I think the great irony is that Stephen King, who's been very, very successful from writing, I think he would, I think if King had never published Carrie. I think if he still lived in that, that two room trailer and he'd never, you know, quote unquote made it, I still think he would have written those books. I think he's just a compulsive storyteller.
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Koosha Navadar
One of the books that I really enjoyed seeing on your list was on A Memoir of Craft. Because he's written books, a book at least this book on practical, no nonsense instructionals and memoirs for writers. There's gotta be some chunks of wisdom in there. Why do you think other writers look to him for advice beyond, you know, just the massive impact that he's had? Is there something more to it that you think makes him such a strong gravitational pull for inspiration?
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Neil McRobert
I think he's the closest thing we have to Charles Dickens born Again. I think he is a. I think he understands on an intuitive level how story works. Because even when he throws structure to the wind, which he can these days, I mean, who's gonna tell king to cut 100 pages, right? So when he writes a book like 1122 63. And it's just structurally all over the place and meandering. He gets how story works and the beats and rhythm of story and of character, and he might he. He writes about real blue collar people without any degree of pretension or any degree of whimsical romance. They're just real. And I think his work with character is the thing that really sets him above, I think, anyone else in most genres, not just horror.
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Koosha Navadar
We're talking to writer and critic Neil McRobert, who just wrote an Esquire article, all 75 Stephen King books ranked, and we're talking about Stephen King. Neil, we've got more callers. I'd love to go to Nick and Putin County. Hey, Nick, welcome to the show.
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Caller
Yeah, hi. I think I need the help of your guest to convince me otherwise. I had an unfortunate experience with Stephen King, which made me question the intelligence of the person who recommended the book, and it made me question Stephen King's talent. My friend recommended I read Tommyknockers. I asked, what should I read by Stephen King? And honestly, the book killed me. I read the entire thing, 700 pages. It's time in my life I'll never get back. I found it to be boring. It went on endlessly. I couldn't connect with the characters. And after I finished that book, I said, I thought, I'll never read another Stephen King book again. Tell me why I should and recommend something to me that I will find compelling.
- [26:13]
Koosha Navadar
And please. So, Nick, thank you so much for that call. We happen to have a caller on the other side of it. And, Nick, I'm going to get to your question, but before that, I'd love to hear from Joe on the Upper west side. And I'm going to keep you both on the line right now. Joe, do you have a counterpoint here?
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Caller
Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for having me. First, I just think, you know, Tommyknockers is a very underrated Stephen King novel. I've read of a lot of his stuff throughout my entire life, and I just feel like. Like, you certainly wouldn't put this book in a writing course for how to write a good novel. It's not a good novel structurally, but I feel like the story is just very raw, you know, and it was written during a time of his life. Excuse me, when he was very, you know, he was, you know, doing a lot of drinking and doing a lot of drugs. And he spoke very openly about that. And I feel like there's just this raw kind of hallucinatory power to the story that you just don't see in a lot of his other stories. Although it's a structurally flawed novel, it happens to be one of my favorite.
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Koosha Navadar
And something that this brings up is, you know, the. The pitfalls with his writing, because no writer is perf. And King definitely has some faults, as Nick, I think you're fairly pointing out, and Joe, I hear you talking about as well. There's this one essay, Neil, by author Scott woods. And in it, he characterizes King's depiction of black folks. And woods argues that black characters in his stories only serve to enhance, save and develop white characters. He calls it the magical Negro plot problem, like the character John Coffey in the Green Mile. So, Neil, when you hear Nick's misgivings, you hear Joe's explanation. Is that something that you've noticed, too, as a pitfall in Stephen King's writing? And what would you say about it?
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Neil McRobert
Are you asking about the racial reputation?
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Koosha Navadar
Yeah, the. The pitfalls there.
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Neil McRobert
It's hard to argue with it because you think about John Coffey, who's very much a Christlike figure. It's there in the initials J.C. it's a difficult one to. It's. It's. It's a hard one as a fan to talk about because what King does is he makes racism so often a marker of evil or idiocy in his stories. Rightly so. And when you read it, going back to my favorite, what struck me reading it again, is that there's one character called Mike Hanlon who is. Who is a. An African American child who. Every page that Mike is on, there is some racial epithet or some racial slur thrown his way to the point where it becomes this kind of critical mass of hate that I'm like, I don't need this much. It feels like an affront to me, let alone a reader of color. But I don't. The whole magical Negro conceit, I don't necessarily agree with. You look at a character like Dick Holleran in the Shining, who in the film is just a sacrificial character. He has a magical power. And then he comes back and acts in the chest. He's gone. In the book, he has a much more developed character, much more troubling, much more problematic, much more balanced. He's a fully fledged human being as opposed to a plot device in Kubrick's adaptation. So I think there's more to it than the article says. But there is certainly a thread of black characters being treated in a certain way in King's fiction.
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Koosha Navadar
We've got time for just one more caller, Veronica from Manhattan. Hi, Veronica. Welcome to the show.
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Caller
Hi. I'm so glad to be able to put into this. I want to recommend cell C, E L L. I got it out of the library accidentally, and it got me in the first paragraph. It was a page turner. I mean, a licking finger page turner. And then when it came movie, I took my sister because she would not own a cell phone because she didn't want to get caught in anything. And I didn't tell her what it was. She leapt in the air. Film actually caught the timbre of the movie of the book. But, God, it was a page turner and a page turner. And foretold a time that we have now. That's all I can say. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for letting me say that.
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Koosha Navadar
Absolutely, Veronica. And thank you so much for calling. Neil. You know, over the past half hour, we've heard the cell. We've heard it. We've heard Buick 8. 50 years, 75 stories. What do you want to see from Stephen King next?
- [30:27]
Neil McRobert
Okay, so two quick answers. I. He told me on my podcast that there is a possibility he may finish the Talisman trilogy that he began with Peter Straub. He collaborated on the Talisman and Black House with Straub, who has now sadly passed on. He told me there is a set of notes, an outline for book three that he potentially could write, but he's not sure. Could he do it without Peter? You know, has he got the stamina for it? I. We'd all love to see that stuff story brought to its conclusion. The other thing I want, I just want one more huge book about a small town ripped asunder by some kind of external malign force. Because that. That is the quintessential Stephen King plot. And ever since he did that with Salem's Lot and, you know, and all the way into the under the Dome and stuff, and. And it, of course, he does it so well, and he's moved away from it. He's moved into kind of crime fiction and other kind of SO avenues. But I'd love to see one more primo, quintessential King novel about a small town fighting back in some awful evil. That's what I want. Make it a thousand pages, Stephen, please.
- [31:39]
Koosha Navadar
From your words to Stephen King's ears. So, Stephen King, if you're listening, Neil has laid down the gauntlet. Go for it. We've been talking to writer and critic Neil McRobert from the Talking Scared podcast and also the writer of the recent esquire article, all 75 Stephen King books ranked and listeners. Thank you so much for your calls. And Neil, thank you so much for this list and for talking to us today.
- [32:04]
Neil McRobert
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
- [32:06]
Caller
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