C (3:34)

Right.

B (3:35)

And so the Haudenosaunee, the Iroquois Confederacy, right. They will play really a very large role in the revolution, but that's going to come just a little bit later as things keep developing. Right now, they're going to be more kind of trade partners. Right. We're still coming off the Seven Years War, the French and Indian War. So there's absolutely influence, but it's not necessarily as much in the streets of New York City as it maybe was in even, you know, 30, 40, 50 years before.

C (4:04)

All right, the streets of New York City, that mile you just described, what's it like on an average day? What do we expect?

A (4:10)

What are we experiencing?

B (4:12)

So it is a busy, bustling city. Right. This is a port city. It's huge for the time, and it's very diverse. You're going to be seeing people from all over. You're seeing merchants, seamen. You're going to be seeing, you know, traders all the way up to elites. Right. We still have kind of a landed gentry class that are, you know, in and around New York City, too. You've got the lawyers, the printers, the tavern keepers. It's people from all walks of life figuring out how to live together and build something that's, you know, already kind of unique in the colonies.

C (4:52)

Listeners, we want to hear from you. How are you planning to reflect on the 250th anniversary of the US this year? What do you want to know more about New York during the Revolution? Is there a piece of New York revolutionary history that's interests you the most? And why do the ideas of revolution still matter? That's the essay question. Our number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. My guest is Melissa Lauer, manager of education and public programs at the Francis Tavern Museum. All right. At the time you said it was a major city, Philadelphia was a little more of a political center of the colonies at the time. So what was New York's reputation in the colonies in 1776?

B (5:38)

So one of the important things to think about when you think about New York City is its place geographically, because not only is it a port city, but it's located right in between the other two largest cities of the time, which is Philadelphia and then Boston up north. So people are used to traveling through New York on business and for leisure. Right. It is an active crossroads. So, you know, even people traveling down to, you know, Congress political meetings down in Philadelphia are often going to be passing through and stopping and staying in New York City in between. So it's known for exactly what it is. It's known for its commerce and its diversity and its rudeness. And it's your character. Tell me more about its rudeness. John Adams, he actually writes when he's passing through New York to one of these meetings in Philadelphia that, you know, the people of New York speak. I think the quote is very loud, very fast and altogether. And, you know, it's exactly the character that you think of today. Right. There's this reputation that New Yorkers have very early on because that's what New York City is. It's this place where all these different people are coming together and, you know, trading and living and building this life.

C (6:53)

Somebody just texted me, so nothing's changed.

B (6:55)

Basically. There you go.

C (6:56)

Right at the beginning of 1776, how strong was the British presence in New York?

B (7:05)

So not very strong at all at the very beginning. If we're looking, you know, right around, you know, this time, 250 years ago in January, the city is under kind of de facto patriot control. The British governor, William Tryon, has been kind of pushed out of the city in the fall of 1775. And most of the British forces are still kind of stuck in Boston, which is under siege by the Continental army and its brand new commander, George Washington. So that's the focus and New York is kind of not yet going to be the main stage, but it is in January of that year that Washington will order the city to begin preparing for what he expects to be a British invasion later in the year. So they know it's coming. It just hasn't started yet.

A (7:56)

Somebody just texted what my next question was. The question is thoughts on black votes in New York City in 1776. We know that New York would not abolish slavery until 50 years later in 1827. What role did enslaved people play in New York?

B (8:15)

So a very, very integral one. Right. This Again, it's a city of trade and commerce, and that absolutely includes the slave trade. New York City is a part of that. If you, again, start looking a little bit out of the city, you do have some large estates with large enslaved populations. And in the city, that's a reality as well. It's likely you couldn't walk down one of those streets in this square mile of city without passing a household where there's at least one person who's enslaved there.

C (8:43)

Right?

B (8:44)

So they are here. They're a massive part of, you know, building the city as it's come to be by 1776 and as the war gets started, that's going to start shaping everybody's lives, right? We've at this point in the year, right, early 1776, people will have started to hear about Lord Dunmore's proclamation, which is actually coming out of Virginia and not New York, but he is the British governor of Virginia state is now embattled, and he puts out this proclamation that states any enslaved person who's able to get away and fight as a Loyalist will be guaranteed their freedom. So those ripples are going to spread through different communication channels, and people are going to start thinking about, what does this war mean for me? Which side do I choose?

C (9:34)

Northern cities did have free black populations, though. How prevalent was the free black population in revolutionary New York?

B (9:42)

It was definitely present. It's going to become much larger following the war years than it even is at the beginning. And that's in part because of some of these proclamations, some of the migration that's gonna happen over the course of the war. But it goes all the way back to the beginnings of New York City, that you will have both enslaved and free black populations, active living, building community in the city.

C (10:07)

Let's take a couple calls. Let's talk to Carmelo in Hackensack, New Jersey. Hi, Carmelo. Thank you for taking the time to call, all of it.

D (10:16)

Thank you very much, Allison. Happy New Year to one and all. I just want to say that I grew up in Hackensack, and as a kid, we used to see all the retreat routes that George Washington took. And we used to go to the Fort Lee Historical park and overview Manhattan. And we used to imagine what was happening during the Revolution, how this country was shooting shaped. And it was just such a, you know, learning experience. And I grew up around the corner from a Revolutionary War cemetery, which still today is there. It's on Hudson street in Hackensack. And it's just remarkable to see and hear the conversation how we reshaped and how we were such an integral part of this country. And it's just, to me, it's just so rewarding to still see and hear these things and so happy to be around for our 250th anniversary. And I think it's just something something that, you know, you see, but you don't quite get a grasp of it until you, you know, can imagine when we have something like our, you know, our anniversary of our country coming up. It's just fabulous. I wanted to say thank you for having me on.

C (11:24)

Thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Francie in Manhattan. Hi, Francie. Thanks so much.

E (11:29)

Hi, Allison.

A (11:30)

Hello.

E (11:32)

Yeah, Allison, it's such fabulous synchronicity that this coming Saturday, January 10, 2026, is the 250th anniversary of the exact date that Thomas Paine released to the world, Common Sense, which of course, changed the trajectory of the world and certainly the United States. And there's going to be a staged reading by attorneys in. Where else? What better place? Francis Tavern in the flag room on Saturday, January 10th at 12:30-1:30. And everyone is invited. There is no fee, but you must reserve on the Francis Tavern website in order to have a place at the table, so to speak.

C (12:25)

Thank you so much for calling in. And we're going to discuss that on the show on Friday. Let's talk about Frances Tavern, Melissa, managing editor of in public programs at the Fraunces Tavern Museum.

B (12:35)

Absolutely.

C (12:37)

What was the original story of Fraunces Tavern?

B (12:40)

So it goes very, very far back. It was Originally built in 1719 as a house for Stephen de Lancy, who's going to be, you know, one of the prominent families all the way up through the American Revolution beyond. But it became a tavern when Samuel Francis purchased that building in 1762, which is right as we're starting to build up some of this resistance that will come about because of the British acts. Right. The taxes that are going to come through and some of the resistance to that will really be born in France's tavern. It was a revolutionary meeting place which kind of epitomizes some of the conflict that you'd see even in a space like New York City between kind of loyalist and patriot beliefs that are going to be building up in here.

C (13:31)

Yeah.

B (13:31)

I was going to ask you because.

C (13:33)

You know, eight months prior to 1776, in like, April of 1775, that was the Battle of Lexington and Concord. Right. So how much revolutionary spirit was there in New York compared to Boston?

B (13:48)

Yeah. So every colony is different, right? Boston has that reputation for a reason of being the seat of revolution. Right. But it doesn't end there. You can't really label a colony as, you know, purely patriot or purely loyalist. They really are going to be real ideological struggles that are happening everywhere. So that means that that is present in New York. There's a group of, you know, Sons of Liberty who are, you know, meeting at Francis Tavern, having some of these conversations. They hear about the Boston Tea Party. They decide to have their own version in New York to protest the Tea Acts, right? So it's happening all over that. There's, you know, these very loud, sometimes violent groups in support of the patriot cause. And you also have Loyalists. It's a merchant city. There are people with a lot of ties to Britain with, you know, their livelihood, their family's backgrounds. They're afraid of letting that slip away. And there's a lot of people who are caught somewhere in the middle where they don't know what the right choice is going to be. There's a lot of chaos involved with this idea of democracy. And at the same time, you know, you've got these boycotts, you've got this popular spirit. And, you know, thanks to our caller who just came in, right. Common Sense is about to come out in January of 1776. And that does have a massive impact on public opinion, on starting to kind of bring the kind of common language to these ideas that gives people something to rally around and starts to solidify some of that support, including in places like New York City.

A (15:28)

This year, the United States is commemorating its 250th birthday. To kick off our coverage of the anniversary, we're discussing what one would see an experience in New York as 1776 began.

C (15:42)

My guest is Melissa Lauer, manager of.

A (15:44)

Education and public programs at the Francis Tavern Museum. We'd also like to hear from you. How are you planning to reflect on.

C (15:52)

The anniversary this year? What do the ideals of the revolution, do they still matter?

A (15:58)

What do you want to know more.

C (15:59)

About revolutionary New York? Our Phone number is 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. We got a text that says, what.

A (16:10)

Did New Yorkers do for leisure or recreation?

C (16:13)

Did people even have activities at the at that time?

B (16:17)

Oh, absolutely. And that brings me right back to taverns, right? They are a seat of social life in part because they offer exactly that. They offer opportunities for leisure. So people aren't necessarily gonna be spending as much time at home as you would Associate with today.

C (16:36)

Right.

B (16:37)

You're not necessarily inviting people over for a game night, for a dinner at your house, unless you're a lot wealthier. Taverns are the spaces where people come together for a little bit of fun. Right. Whether that's a drink and a meal or whether it's a dance. Right. Samuel Francis could have cleared out the long room in France's tavern, the largest room in the building, moved out that furniture and held scientific lectures.

C (17:04)

Right.

B (17:05)

Dance programs, opportunities for people to socialize and experience the world. And this was happening, you know, all over in taverns that could offer different little interesting activities. There's, you know, story that you could go to a different tavern in the city and see a real live jaguar.

C (17:25)

Right.

B (17:26)

Things are coming from all over to New York City, and people are just as interested in all of it as they would be today.

C (17:33)

Talk to Shane from Westfield, New Jersey. I think he has a question. Hi, Shane.

F (17:40)

Hi, Alison. And thank you to Melissa for this very interesting segment in my learning more about the revolution. It surprised me and was very much different from what I learned in school way back when that, as Melissa said a couple of minutes, there was real divided opinion among the general population as to whether or not to support the revolution. And that certainly was at this time. But it really continued throughout the war. And unfortunately, that resulted in a lot of violence between those civilians who were supportive of the cause and those loyalists who were unsure because they really were English by origin. And that violence was something that I think it becoming a real civil war that many of us didn't appreciate.

C (18:49)

Thank you for your question and your comment, Shane. Yeah, the idea of what a war means is something to be taken seriously.

B (18:58)

Absolutely. And calling it a civil war, I think is absolutely accurate. Right. It is a rebellion, but it's between people who, you know, a year ago all considered themselves loyal British citizens. When the war gets started, there's not this huge rallying cry for independence. People don't want to break away from Great Britain as much as they want to have that representation, part of no taxation without representation. They want their rights as British citizens in the way that they envision that. And it takes a lot of this violence, this political violence in some of the early battles of the war to start changing people's minds. They have to see British soldiers, you know, burning a town. They have to see some of these abuses actually happening on their soil before, you know, people who maybe have less of these calculating political minds are going to get on board with what this is really going to mean for them.

C (19:51)

Let's talk to Charles from the Upper west side. He has a question for you. Hi, Charles. Thanks for calling, all of it.

D (19:58)

Thank you so much. I feel like an idiot asking this, but was Francis an African American?

C (20:06)

A Francis Tavern?

D (20:08)

Yes.

C (20:09)

Have you heard that?

D (20:10)

I always wanted to know his history.

B (20:12)

Yeah. So there's a lot that we don't know or don't know for sure. Sure. When it comes to Samuel Francis, we know, I believe, from a census record that he was recorded as white in one of the censuses. But there are stories going pretty far back that cast some doubt on what his race may have been, and it's likely that we'll never be able to say for certain. So it kind of depends. Which sources are you going to pull from? Do you go by his nickname, Black Sam? What could that have meant? It's still kind of an ongoing question, but I think that there's a lot of kind of fertile ground in embracing some of those questions. What are the reasons that, you know, race might have played a role in somebody's life? Why would you pick one designation over another? But at this point, I can't say for certain.

A (21:03)

A question for you. A lot of us think we know American history because we watched Hamilton 8 million times. And I'm. And I'm convinced there is a generation who knows more about the Revolutionary War than would have known 25 years ago. But who are some of the major figures in New York in 1776?

B (21:21)

So we've got a whole cast of characters, right? Alexander Hamilton himself. He's here. He's starting to get involved in the war. He's part of a artillery company.

C (21:34)

Right.

B (21:34)

By this time in the war, he's starting to get involved in some of these skirmishes. And he's building a lot of relationships because, of course, he does that pretty well. He wants to, you know, use that ambition to start building a career for himself. And one of those people that he gets to know is John Jay, right. Who's another famous New Yorker. Right. He's going to keep playing a role throughout the war. You've got your leaders of the Sons of Liberty here that we maybe don't know as well. That's going to be Isaac Sears and Alexander McDougal, who are involved in kind of some of the. The rabble rousing that's going to add fire to the cause. And then they'll also be involved in actually fighting the war as it gets started. And then you kind of pivot and you look at some of the loyalists that we know about. There are plenty of, you know, British officers still in and around the city, merchants that work very closely with them. That's a lot of those landed, wealthier, more elite families like the Delanceys, like the Phillips's of Phillipsburg Manor. Right. Who are going to be kind of pulling from other viewpoints and other sides.

A (22:42)

This text says Greenwood Cemetery in Brooklyn is also a great site to visit one of the largest battles of the Revolutionary War, known as the Battle of Brooklyn.

C (22:52)

Battle Hill is known as the highest.

A (22:54)

Point in Brooklyn, and it's commemorated with a Minerva, goddess of wisdom and war. What's going on in the other boroughs? What we call now the other boroughs?

B (23:03)

Yeah. So very, very different from New York City proper.

C (23:06)

Right.

B (23:06)

The further out you go from this little chunk of the. The more rural things get. So that goes for Brooklyn, too. You're seeing a lot of, you know, rolling farmland, and that's going to be kind of the same as you look toward the other outer boroughs. But everybody still knows what's going on. Everybody by 1776 is going to be feeling the concern. Right. Maybe your daily life hasn't changed that much. If you're a farmer, you know, way out on Long island. Maybe these, you know, British taxes aren't having a big impact on your daily life. But you are starting to realize that this is going to have some kind. There's going to be pressure to start making some declarations about where you stand. And when the war really comes to New York in that coming summer, these people are going to have a lot to contend with.

C (23:57)

What's going to happen at Fraunces Tavern this year?

A (24:00)

Give us a rundown if you can.

B (24:02)

So so much. So starting now, anytime that you visit, we've got our special exhibitions commemorating the 250th anniversary. It's called Path to Liberty spans three galleries throughout the museum right now. And we're telling the story of the revolution. It's going to keep evolving and changing. If you went today, you'd see something different than if you came back at the end of April, when we're switching out some of the exhibition. And we're also trying to really highlight and tease out the stories of New York and New Yorkers throughout that war as well. Whether that's our own Samuel Francis or, you know, Joshua Webster, whose pistol is in the show, we can tell you a little bit about, you know, his life as an officer, as he's fighting this war. So we've got those exhibitions that are absolutely worth a look. We've got tours, free tours, happening every weekend. Guided tours you can schedule with me. Actually, I do all of that. And then we've got our Liberty 250 series. So that's lectures, events, programming that is going to be tied into these anniversaries and these events all throughout the year.

C (25:10)

Melissa Lauer is manager of education and public programs for the Fraunces Tavern Museum. Thank you for joining us.

B (25:18)

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A (25:59)

What are you?

G (25:59)

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B (26:02)

Drink Dunkin' Original Blend or pretend you're an influencer?

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