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- [00:00]
Commercial Narrator
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- [00:50]
Andre Fowles
For delicious meals, you could go out to eat or you could just make a Marie Callender's meal. Marie Callender's classic Chicken Parmigiano bowl is so good. It has marinara sauce that's made from scratch and creamy mozzarella cheese over pasta. It's delicious with no artificial flavors, colors or preservatives and 30 grams of protein. You can find it in the frozen aisle. Marie what having it all tastes like.
- [01:23]
Alison Stewart
This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. New York is affectionately known as the 15th parish of Jamaica and for good reason. There are more than 150,000 Jamaican immigrants living in New York, according to the center for Migration Studies, and even more in the metro area. The results of those numbers, especially for folks on White Plains Road in the Bronx or Nostran Avenue in Brooklyn, you can enjoy the best of Jamaican food in the city. Beef patties, jerk chicken. You can also enjoy Jamaican cuisine at Miss Lily's, the popular East Village restaurant and bar off Tompkins Square park where my next guest, Andre Fowles, was once a chef. Andre has written a new cookbook called My Jamaica Table, Vibrant Recipes from a Sun Drenched Island. He's also a three time chop champion and happens to be a private chef for Bruce Springsteen. The Boss wrote the foreword to the book which is out today. Andre, thank you for being here.
- [02:20]
Andre Fowles
Thank you so much for having me. Alison, what a wonderful introduction.
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Alison Stewart
There you go. I love that we got a good conversation coming. You write that Jamaican food is, quote, the soul of the island. What does the food tell us about Jamaican culture?
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Andre Fowles
It's it tells a story of firstly, the history, you know, of the people and the migration of ingredients. So it's a very, it's a very eclectic cuisine. If you think about some of our favorites, we have the Jerk Chicken, you know, those spices. Then we have the curry goat, you know, the, the spices from India. And then we have the Chinese influence. So it's a very diverse, delicious combination of cuisines.
- [03:02]
Alison Stewart
I'm going to read a little bit from your, your book. This is, this is a beautiful introduction. It says, dappled sunlight flickering through the trees. A tendril of smoke unfurling from the coal fire. The perfume of red peas rising from coconut milk in a well worn pot. I can almost taste the thyme and Scotch bonnet. It's like I've returned to my grandmother's kitchen. These are the sights, tastes and smells that breath bring me to Jamaica. Tell us about your grandmother's kitchen.
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Andre Fowles
Oh my gosh. She went straight for the heart with that one. You got me emotional. That's actually my, one of probably my best paragraph because as, as you were reading that, it took me back.
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Alison Stewart
Yeah.
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Andre Fowles
And I got teary eyed for a hot second. It's just showed us food is such, is such a, is such the ultimate connector. And it's something that I really wanted to make sure that I captured in the essence of the book. It's not just about the recipes. It's a storytelling story. And, and I'm sure other people can connect to my story. And you know, food is one of those things that everyone can, you know, can sit around a table and share and, and talk about just about anything. And it's just something that I'm super proud of.
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Alison Stewart
Mama Cherry was your grandma?
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Andre Fowles
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
She raised you in Kingston. What did Mama Cherry instill in you about cooking?
- [04:21]
Andre Fowles
Firstly, show show respect to the cuisine. And if you're going to cook, give it your all. Because that's something, you know, growing up in Jamaica, we, we didn't have a lot, you know, you know, back then, but food was one of those things that my mom, my grandmother showed love. So they took it extremely serious.
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Alison Stewart
Right.
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Andre Fowles
So they'll go to the market, they'll shop, you know, they get the best ingredients. And the preparation was meticulous. You know, they put a lot of effort in to make sure that everything was clean, everything was done well. The techniques and everything was great. So I think watching my grandmother worked in the kitchen, it instilled great values of just being disciplined, you know, showing love, being respect, thankful and being kind. And, you know, so the reason why she's named, you know, Marit Mama Cherry is that people often said that she's sweet. She's sweet like a cherry and her friends would call her Cherry. And you know, we, you know, we Call her Mama Cherry. Mama Cherry? Yeah.
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Alison Stewart
What was the favorite dish she made for you? And you were like, oh, yeah, Mama
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Andre Fowles
Cherry's cooking that oxtail hands down. That's why my oxtail is the best. No, for sure. That's why my. Because I learned from the master. Her. The way how she prepared her oxtail was literally like watching a French MasterChef. Like, everything was meticulous, and her techniques and how she, you know, she. She really approached that dish was a spot on. So, yeah, her oxtail and rice and peas was unbelievable.
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Alison Stewart
What made you decide that cooking was going to be your job, it was going to be your profession?
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Andre Fowles
If I'm being completely honest, growing up in Jamaica, I wanted to practice medicine, but because of my circumstances, you know, my family could not afford to send me to, you know, to school for that. So I was like, all right, cooking is the next next best thing. I'm so good at it. I grew up around food because Jamaica is a cooking culture. Like, but then we didn't do takeout, you know, you know, maybe. Maybe it's on the weekend, we'll grab some jerk chicken or maybe some patties throughout the week. But most of our meals was being cooked at home, so that was something that came naturally. And of course, Jamaica is, you know, a tourist destination, so there's a lot of, like, job available. And I'm like, okay, I gotta go cook.
- [06:31]
Alison Stewart
We're talking Jamaican cooking. My guest is Andre Fowles, author of the book My Jamaican Table Vibrant Recipes from a Sun Drenched Island. We also, we'd love to hear from you. What's your favorite Jamaican dish? Maybe you're Jamaican from the island or grew up in the city and you moved here. What does the culture mean to you? Is there a Jamaican dish that reminds you the most of your family? Give us a call or text us at 212-433-969-22124. As we said, there are a lot of Jamaicans who live in New York. Why do you think New York and Jamaica share this special bond?
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Andre Fowles
The people, Right? Because we have a very diverse population in New York, and it's the same for Jamaica. A lot of different people live in Jamaica. And honestly, when you go to Jamaica, you see people of different complexion, but they're all Jamaican, you know, so we have a lot of different backgrounds, you know, that identify as Jamaican. And I think it's very similar, very similar to New York. And just the fact that the food is so popular here as well, Everyone loves something about Jamaican food, you know, if you're a vegetarian, we have the ital stew. If you like fish, we cook some of the best seafoods. And of course, those stews you can get over, like the curry goats and oxtail, the patties.
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Alison Stewart
All.
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Andre Fowles
All these things make it a very attractive cuisine.
- [07:55]
Alison Stewart
A lot of New Yorkers know Ms. Lilly's. I know Ms. Lilly's. You were the chef there. You were the chef there. The culinary director of Ms. Lily's location in Negril Ye, Jamaica. What do you want customers to feel about Jamaican food when they visit Miss Lily's?
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Andre Fowles
It's an experience, firstly, because New York is the hustle and bustle city, right? We're all here to achieve, you know, to achieve our goals and dreams. So when you're out in the street, you feel like, all right, you got to go. Get this done, get that done. But my. My. My concept of a restaurant is that once you open that door and you enter, you should be transported, you know, you shouldn't feel like you're in New York anymore. Shouldn't feel like you're somewhere in Jamaica, you know, having a good, you know, cocktail or a red striped beer, listening to some great music, smelling the, you know, the pimento, you know, as it grill, you know, as we jerk some chicken, you know, having some pepper shrimp. So it's an experience. We want people to feel like, you know, you belong, and you, you know, you're in that moment, and for that, you know, that, you know, those few minutes or an hour or two, you're just in that one experience.
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Alison Stewart
You said red stripe?
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Andre Fowles
Yes. Ice cold red stripe. It has to be extra cold.
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Alison Stewart
Yes, it does. All right, let's talk jerk.
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Andre Fowles
Yes.
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Alison Stewart
All right. What are the elements of true jerk? Rub or marinade, what does it need to have?
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Andre Fowles
So jerk, we can identify jerk as two things. It's a seasoning and it's a method, right? So first thing, the seasoning, it has to have a few ingredients to make it jerk, right? Allspice pimento, that we call it. You have to have the garlic, the ginger, the thyme, the scallion, and of course, the heartbeat of Jamaica, the Scotch bonnet. But oftentimes, you know, Scotch bonnet, sometimes we can't find that you can substitute for habaneros. But the flavor is going to be different because Scotch bonnet gives such a. Like, it's not just about the heat with Scotch Bonnet, it has a citrus, a fruity aroma that makes jerk really, really special. And then in terms of the technique, you need some kind of a smoke element to make it Extra tasty. Obviously, we can cook in the oven which, which will give you a similar taste. But to get like the perfect jerk, you need a combination of the seasoning and the smoke.
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Alison Stewart
Jamaican curry powder is different than the curry powder that we think of. Tell me a little bit about Jamaican curry powder. What sets it apart from other curries?
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Andre Fowles
Jamaican curry powder is it's a little bit more mellow in terms of the complexity of the flavor. It's very turmeric, fenugreek, cumin forward and just. And what really makes the curry dishes special is the combination of the Scotch bonnet. Right? Because the Scotch bonnet is just one of those gifts that keeps on giving because it's such a fun chili pepper to cook, cook with. Because we do rice and peas, we do soups, and if you know the right techniques and the right different Scotch bonnets on how to use them. For instance, an example, when we make rice and peas, Jamaica, we always use a green Scotch bonnet to drop, just to steep it in that coconut broth. Because the flavor of the green Scotch bonnet gives you it.
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Alison Stewart
It's.
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Andre Fowles
It's not as spicy, but it gives you that citrus fruity note that makes rice and peas taste so good. And it's because of the Scotch bonnet.
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Alison Stewart
And when you say rice and peas, it's not little green peas.
- [11:13]
Andre Fowles
No, no, please explain. It's beans. Actually, it's red kidney beans. But you know what? We're Jamaicans. We do things our own way. We call it peace.
- [11:21]
Alison Stewart
We're talking Jamaican cooking. My guest is Chef Fowles, author of the book My Jamaican Table Vibrant Recipes from a Sun Drenched Island. We also want to hear from you. What's your favorite Jamaican dish? Maybe you're Jamaican living in the city. What does the food remind you of home? Or do you have a recipe that reminds you of family or home? Call or text us now at 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Your first recipe in the book is pepper shrimp. Yes. What's it called on the island?
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Andre Fowles
Pepper Swims. All right, so the local call, it swims. It just meaning like it's swimming, you know, but it's pepper shrimp, and it's what it is. It's some local shrimp that we catch in the river. It's similar to like a crayfish.
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Alison Stewart
Okay.
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Andre Fowles
And it's there. They're really small, hard shell, but they're super flavorful.
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Alison Stewart
And how do you make it?
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Andre Fowles
So it's honestly, it's one of the most popular street foods out there, outside of the patties and stuff like that and how it's made. It's Scotch bonnet, of course, you need some pimento, a little bit of vinegar, some salt, you know, some spices. But it's primarily done like a preserve method because you can hold that for days. And that's how they sell it on the streets in Jamaica in some clear plastic bags. And it's just like a quick snack.
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Alison Stewart
This text says, my favorite Jamaican dish is stew peas with salted pigtails and white rice.
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Andre Fowles
Ooh, yeah, I know. Yeah, I can relate to that. That person is a Jamaican right there. Because when you talk about stupies and the pig still, you're going real hardcore. That's, that's like, that's one of the treats on Sundays, like if. And. And that was one of the things that, if my mom was having a good week. It's two things. We're eating stewed peas with pig stale. Are we eating oxtail? Because those things are very pricey.
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Alison Stewart
Ah, I see. Let's talk about you making breakfast. It's like a whole culture into itself. What do you need to have a good Jamaican breakfast?
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Andre Fowles
Jamaican breakfast. So the. So. So the thing is, with Jamaican cuisine there, there are a lot of options for Jamaican breakfast, but the go to most classic breakfast combination in my opinion is the fresh steamed callaloo, the ackee and saltfish, obviously the national dish of Jamaica. And then it could be a combination of sides. My, my favorite combination is fried sweet plantain because you get the balance of the sweet, salty earthiness from the greens and then crispy fried dumpling like Johnny cakes. It's like a fried dough. So super crispy on the outside and light and fluffy on the inside. So the combination of everything that's on that plate and of course a cup of Blue Mountain coffee and you're in heaven.
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Alison Stewart
Explain to people what aki is. It's like a fleshy fruit.
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Andre Fowles
Yes, it's, it's a, it's a very high fat fruit and it's something that you have to cook it first in water. So you have to boil it to make it super tender. Then once you do that, you drain it. Then you saute with your, with your salt fish and your. And your garlic and onion. And that's create ackee and saltfish. Our. Our dish in Jamaica.
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Alison Stewart
What does it release in. In other flavors?
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Andre Fowles
Actually, it doesn't have a particular flavor on its own. That's why it works so well with the salt fish, because it's, it's, it's very neutral. In flavor, it's really fatty and just like. It's just deliciousness. Pretty much deliciousness.
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Alison Stewart
That's all. Let's talk to Zeke in Park Slope. Hey, Zeke, thanks for making the time to call. All of it.
- [14:49]
Callers
Alison love calling every time, calling into you. Okay, so, my brother, you hit my heart, and I'm gonna tell you why very quickly, in a good way. My mother's Cuban. My father's Jamaican. I'm Panamanian. Okay. Number one. Okay. I was in Church Avenue last two weekends ago. I was at home, and I had to see, how do I make cow foot soup? I have enough cow foot soup. Yeah, boy.
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Andre Fowles
Yes, sir.
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Callers
Oh, you were talking now. And I met my first time. It wasn't bad, but it's an art. I wasn't stirring. I was trying to use a pressure cooker the whole nine yards. And I didn't do it great, but didn't do it bad. I need your expertise.
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Andre Fowles
Wow. I gotta say, cow foot soup. You're talking my language. Because I love soups. So cold foot soups are the first thing you have to make sure you get a good quality cold foot. Right, Right. And ideally, a pressure cooker would then cut your cook, would cut your cook time in half. But if not, it's perfectly fine when one you. So once you drop your cow foot in your water, you want to start seasoning from the beginning. So you add a couple cloves of garlic, your pimento, your thyme. And as it starts to cook, you want to skim that. You know, skim that scum that comes on the top. And then you want to start to continue adding your flavor. So you can add your. Your pumpkin, whatever vegetables you want, but always season as you go along. And then once it starts getting a bit tender, you want to crank it down to a simmer and let us have it. Just do its thing for the next maybe 30 minutes, and then you're golden.
- [16:21]
Alison Stewart
All right. Good luck, Zeke. Let's talk to Denton. Hey, Denton, you're on the air.
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Callers
Hi. Good afternoon, Allison. And hey, Andre.
- [16:29]
Alison Stewart
How are you doing?
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Andre Fowles
I'm doing good, Denton.
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Callers
Look, Alison, it's hard to say, what's your favorite dish when it comes to Jamaican palate? Absolutely hard.
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Alison Stewart
I. I go for the tough questions. I'm telling you, sir.
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Callers
Yeah, but, you know, we gotta get off with ackee and saltfish, AKA codfish.
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Andre Fowles
Yes, sir.
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Callers
And then there's jerk pork.
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Andre Fowles
Oh, gosh, yes.
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Callers
And then there's cow foot and butter beans. It goes on my tree top. Yeah, those are my top three wow,
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Andre Fowles
That's a pretty good list, honestly. That's great.
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Alison Stewart
Thanks so much for calling. Let's talk to Brenda in Queens. Hi, Brenda. You called all of it. Thanks for taking the time.
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Callers
Good afternoon.
- [17:16]
Alison Stewart
Good afternoon.
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Andre Fowles
Good afternoon.
- [17:19]
Callers
So I'm Jamaican, and I have lived in America in New York, almost 40 years. I came here at 22, and I cook Jamaican food a lot. And what I've discovered is that I'm very disappointed when I eat out to get Jamaican food, so I cook it myself. Additionally, my favorite. My all time favorite Jamaican dish is two peas and rice. And it's because it's something I could eat over and over without feeling like I'm making myself sick or, you know, without getting tired of it. There's just something about the stewie red kidney beans that just. That's the only time I eat seconds. I do not consider myself a foodie, but I could eat that all the time.
- [18:05]
Andre Fowles
Oh, yes.
- [18:07]
Alison Stewart
Thank you so much for calling. Did you want to respond to any of those calls?
- [18:11]
Andre Fowles
Well, stewpeas is obviously one of the goats of Jamaican food, so, yeah, you're definitely doing the right thing.
- [18:18]
Alison Stewart
This is a question for you, Andres. What's the difference between Jamaican food and other West Indian cuisines? Wow.
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Andre Fowles
That's a great question. Wow. I would say the combination of flavors that we are. Because when you think about the Caribbean, you know, and the West Indies, we. We have very similar ingredients. Right. But it all depends on what group of people settle on what island that makes up the cuisine. And for Jamaica, the fact that we have the. In the. The Indians and the Chinese, the Spanish and the English, and so. And so many more influence that. That's what makes our cuisine so much more eclectic, I would say the flavors that we can. And. And of course. And of course, the range that we can pull from, you know, from those ingredients, I think that's. That's what make our cuisine stands out.
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Alison Stewart
You write that Jamaica has a nose to tail culture, that you don't waste any part of the animal. How does that influence the flavors?
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Andre Fowles
A lot. A lot. Because, you know, the. The scraps, like what people would say. But then those are. Those parts of the animal usually carries the most flavor because it takes longer to cook. As it cooks and it breaks down, the flavors gets more complex. That's why oxtail is on a surge right now. You can't afford oxtail these days. Like, it's. It's more expensive than steak. Like, it's.
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Alison Stewart
It's.
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Andre Fowles
It's because. Because of just the tendons, the fat Everything that's in it, you know, and it goes. And of course, it goes back to cold food. It sounds taboo when people are not aware of what it is and how to use it, but once you cook it, it's so delicious. So I would say yeah, those. Those nose to tail culture that we have, you know, everything we eat, a cold foot, the co ed, whatever it is, it's just delicious parts of the animal.
- [20:03]
Alison Stewart
And our final question is from Cheryl in Brooklyn. What's the best way to prepare chicken feet? Wow.
- [20:11]
Andre Fowles
You know, the best way to. I would say in a. In. In soups. That's the best way to do it in soup. So if you think about a classic Jamaican chicken soup, it's always like a combination of chicken feet, the chicken box, whatever it is, stuff that has bones to give it the flavor. So I would say the best way to do it is in soups.
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Alison Stewart
As I mentioned, you're a Bruce Springsteen chef.
- [20:33]
Andre Fowles
Yes, I am.
- [20:35]
Alison Stewart
Does he have a favorite Jamaican dish?
- [20:38]
Andre Fowles
Actually, yeah, he has a few, but I would say his go to favorite is curry, lobster and coconut rice with some. Some side of plantains and some steamed vegetables. He loves the flavors of curry, and he loves the sweetness of the, you know, of the coconut milk. And I always. So whenever I make my curry, I always try to make condiments with it, right. To help to enhance the flavor of the curry. So usually it's two condiments. It's. It's. So it's either a hot sauce, a scotch bonnet hot sauce, but kind of mellow. And then you have a mango chutney, or any chutney of its kind could be pineapple, you know, so those. Those combination of hot, sweet curry, the coconut rice, and of course, roti as well. It's just like you're having a mini buffet because you can create your own flavor pockets, you know, And I think that's one of the things that he really loves.
- [21:33]
Alison Stewart
My son loves beef patties. I just had to share that with you.
- [21:36]
Andre Fowles
I make a pretty wicked beef patty.
- [21:38]
Alison Stewart
I'm gonna try.
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Andre Fowles
It's in the book.
- [21:39]
Alison Stewart
I'm gonna try.
- [21:40]
Andre Fowles
Look at that. Take a look at that. That patty in the book. It's like I put so much work into that recipes because it's something, you know, I love my cuisine, and I want people to, you know, to connect with that. I didn't want to do a quick project. This book took me four years because I did the research, I tested recipes, and it's a great book.
- [21:59]
Alison Stewart
The name of the book is my Jamaican Table Vibrant recipes from a sun drenched Island. It's by Andre Fowles. Thanks for being with us.
- [22:07]
Andre Fowles
Thank you. This has been an absolute pleasure. And if you guys are in Brooklyn, I'll be at BEM tonight at 7pm Love that Bam. Bookstore.
- [22:15]
Alison Stewart
Thanks for being with us.
- [22:16]
Andre Fowles
You got it.
- [22:17]
Alison Stewart
There's more. All of it on the way.
- [22:21]
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