What The Red Scare Can Teach Us Today

Summary

All Of It: What The Red Scare Can Teach Us Today

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host: Alison Stewart
• Producer: WNYC
• Episode: What The Red Scare Can Teach Us Today
• Release Date: July 11, 2025
• Description: A deep dive into the cultural and historical impacts of the Red Scare, exploring its lessons for contemporary society.

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Introduction

In the episode titled "What The Red Scare Can Teach Us Today," Alison Stewart delves into a pivotal moment in American history—the Red Scare of the late 1940s and 1950s—and examines its enduring lessons for today's political and cultural climate. Joining her is Ann Lessy, the curator of historic exhibitions at the New York Historical (formerly the New York Historical Society), who provides expert insights into the events and their ramifications.

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Setting the Scene: An American Story [00:31 - 01:34]

Alison Stewart introduces the centerpiece of the episode: an exhibit titled An American Story at the New York Historical. This exhibit showcases how the American government targeted Hollywood in 1947, accusing prominent figures in the film industry of communist sympathies.

"The exhibit makes the point that what was in the past is not always over. And it asks, what does this time teach us about today? And what warning should we heed?" [00:31]

The exhibition features a variety of artifacts, including photographs, objects, paintings, and films, illustrating the pervasive influence of the FBI in monitoring and censoring perceived communist propaganda in Hollywood.

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Historical Context: The Origins of HUAC [01:35 - 03:33]

Ann Lessy provides a historical backdrop, tracing the origins of the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC). Initially formed before World War II to investigate supposed communist infiltration in various sectors, HUAC's focus intensified post-war, particularly targeting the Federal Theater Project.

"Many who had been so involved in that patriotic effort suddenly found themselves scrutinized for their personal political beliefs and associations." [01:53]

The Red Scare was fueled by the economic turmoil of the Great Depression and the subsequent search for scapegoats, leading to heightened fears of communist influence in American institutions.

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Mechanics of the Red Scare: HUAC’s Operations [03:33 - 07:53]

The discussion shifts to how HUAC operated during the Red Scare. Ann Lessy explains that HUAC claimed to uncover communist propaganda in Hollywood but largely focused on probing individuals' political affiliations without substantive evidence.

"There was never really any evidence presented of, you know, subversive messages embedded within Hollywood films." [03:39]

HUAC leveraged the burgeoning Cold War tensions and public fears of Soviet expansion to justify their invasive investigations. The committee's approach was less about factual evidence and more about political maneuvering and reasserting conservative values.

"It was a contest between who was being the patriotic American." [04:48]

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Impact on the Film Industry: The Hollywood 10 [07:10 - 10:38]

One of the most significant impacts of HUAC's actions was the blacklisting of industry professionals, notably the Hollywood 10—a group of screenwriters and a director who resisted answering HUAC's probing questions about their political affiliations. Ann Lessy details their courageous stand and the subsequent fallout.

"They were held in contempt of Congress. They made appeals through the judicial system... their conviction was upheld and they were sentenced to up to one year in prison." [09:58]

The Hollywood 10 became symbolic figures representing the fight against governmental overreach and the suppression of free speech. Their refusal to comply led to widespread repercussions, including loss of employment and public reputation.

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The Mechanics of Blacklisting: How HUAC Operated [10:36 - 13:44]

Explaining the process of blacklisting, Ann Lessy describes how HUAC utilized subpoenas and leveraged other organizations, such as the American Legion and publications like Red Channels, to compile lists of alleged communist sympathizers. These blacklists were not limited to Hollywood but affected various sectors, including labor unions and civil rights organizations.

"You got a subpoena from Congress... there's such an uneven platform." [07:17]

The pervasive fear of being labeled a communist led to self-censorship and a stifling of progressive and liberal movements across the country.

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Consequences for Artistic Expression [11:22 - 15:20]

The blacklist had a chilling effect on the types of stories and themes explored in Hollywood films. Ann Lessy notes that social dramas addressing issues like anti-Semitism and veterans' struggles were discouraged as they were deemed unpatriotic.

"There was a real discouragement against social dramas that explored social problems." [11:57]

A poignant example is "Roman Holiday," written by Dalton Trumbo, one of the Hollywood 10. Due to blacklisting, Trumbo had to write under a pseudonym, preventing him from receiving credit and fair compensation for his work until decades later.

"And it really took a campaign decades later. So four decades after the release of the film, he was finally recognized as the writer." [15:20]

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Broadway vs. Hollywood: Divergent Paths [15:41 - 17:10]

Interestingly, unlike Hollywood, Broadway and the New York theater scene did not adopt a formal blacklist. Ann Lessy attributes this to the theater's smaller scale and lack of corporate sponsorships, which rendered it less of a target for HUAC.

"It seemed as if in the Post World War II era, the government was less interested in theater because it wasn't a mass entertainment." [15:54]

Broadway became a refuge for artists who fled Hollywood, allowing for continued creative expression and social commentary despite the oppressive climate.

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The Decline of the Blacklist and Long-Term Effects [17:10 - 19:43]

The blacklist began to lose its grip in the 1960s, highlighted by the release of "Spartacus" in 1960, where actor Kirk Douglas insisted that Dalton Trumbo receive writing credit. This and other similar actions signaled the start of the downfall of blacklisting practices.

"You saw over the course of the 1960s, some being able to return to the entertainment industry." [17:16]

However, the damage inflicted on many lives and careers during the Red Scare was irreparable, with some individuals never regaining their former status.

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Contemporary Reflections and Lessons [20:52 - 22:15]

Connecting past to present, the conversation shifts to the relevance of the Red Scare in today's political discourse, where accusations of communist or socialist sympathies are still used as political tools.

"When you hear politicians, any politician, calling people communists today, what does that bring up for you as a historian?" [21:01]

Ann Lessy emphasizes the importance of safeguarding democratic values, free speech, and protecting individuals from being ostracized for their beliefs.

"It is so important to engage in critical thinking about what. How do we treat political dissent?" [22:15]

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Exhibit Highlights: Artifacts Illuminating History [19:43 - 21:44]

Ann Lessy highlights key artifacts from the An American Story exhibit, including a 1947 pamphlet titled Thought Police that visually represents the concept of "policing thought." Another significant artifact is Lauren Bacall's costume from "How to Marry a Millionaire," symbolizing the personal sacrifices artists made during the blacklist era.

"It shows police officers who are covering ears, eyes and mouth of individuals. And I think that really captures that idea of policing thought." [22:50]

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Conclusion: Enduring Impact and Unresolved Issues [23:17 - 24:24]

As the episode concludes, Alison Stewart reiterates the importance of understanding the Red Scare's legacy to navigate current and future challenges in protecting civil liberties and fostering a healthy democratic society.

"We see how quickly the ground shifted and potential allies felt they had to retreat and retract." [20:52]

Ann Lessy underscores that while the blacklist has faded, its lessons remain pertinent, urging contemporary society to remain vigilant against similar forms of persecution and censorship.

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Key Takeaways

• Historical Significance: The Red Scare was not only a political episode but also a profound cultural movement that reshaped American society and its institutions.

• Impact on Arts: The targeting of Hollywood and the subsequent blacklist had lasting effects on artistic expression, censorship, and the careers of countless individuals.

• Lessons for Today: The episode underscores the importance of protecting democratic freedoms, fostering open dialogue, and resisting the temptation to label dissenting voices for political gain.

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Notable Quote Highlights:

• "Some believe that it was an opportunity to elevate themselves as politicians." – Ann Lessy [04:08]
• "It was a contest between who was being the patriotic American." – Ann Lessy [04:48]
• "You had to work in secret and forego any recognition of your work." – Ann Lessy [15:20]
• "It is so important to engage in critical thinking about what. How do we treat political dissent?" – Ann Lessy [22:15]

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For those interested in exploring this pivotal chapter of American history, the An American Story exhibit remains on display at the New York Historical through October 19th, offering a comprehensive look into the Red Scare's pervasive influence on culture and society.

Transcript

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[Alison Stewart]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. In an exhibit titled An American Story, the American government targeted the film industry in 1947, accusing some of the country's most talented actors, directors and writers of being communists or communist sympathizers. Anyone who didn't cooperate would find that the doors of Hollywood were closed to them recently. Goodnight and Good Luck on Broadway tackled these same issues. And in fact, the New York Theater was proven to be a haven for those targeted. The exhibit features photographs, objects, paintings and films. You learn how the FBI started reviewing films for communist messaging. One poster shows that It's a Wonderful Life was found to, quote, represent a rather obvious attempt to discredit bankers, end quote. The exhibit makes the point that what was in the past is not always over. And it asks, what does this time teach us about today? And what warning should we heed? Ann Lessy is a curator of historic exhibitions at the New York Historical and she joins me now to discuss. Hi, Anne.

[Ann Lessy]

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

And before we start, I just want to tell our listeners I did not misspeak. It's the New York Historical is the new name of the institution formerly known as the New York Historical Society.

[Ann Lessy]

That's correct.

[Alison Stewart]

Congratulations on the new name.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

Why is it important to revisit this chapter in American history?

[Ann Lessy]

I think this show is such an important opportunity to get to explore a very challenging and often painful moment in American history. This in the direct aftermath of World War II. And, you know, many in the film industry had been working with the War Department to create films that would really support the mobilization and support for the war. And so, you know, the tide really turned very quickly and many who had been so involved in that patriotic effort suddenly found themselves scrutinized for their personal political beliefs and associations.

[Alison Stewart]

Yeah. The exhibit starts in 1929. The stock market crash. Yeah.

[Ann Lessy]

Yes. We do briefly talk about the first Red Scare, Emma Goldman's deportment for being an immigrant activist and just establishing the history of red scares. But yes, we look at the Great Depression and how this economic crisis motivated some people to look for new solutions to solve economic and political problems.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, I'm going to ask you.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

To Do a little history lesson for us.

[Alison Stewart]

Tell us about the origins of the House UN American Activities Committee. Huac.

[Ann Lessy]

Yes. You did? Great. Well, there was an earlier iteration before the war and it actually did target the Federal Theater Project and was very suspicious that alleged Communists were involved in this federal arts program. And then its work paused as everyone focused on the war effort. And then in 1947, it was revived with this particular mission of looking for communist propaganda in Hollywood film.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Communist propaganda? What would that exist?

[Alison Stewart]

What would that mean?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

What did that mean?

[Ann Lessy]

I think that's a great question. There was never really any evidence presented of, you know, subversive messages embedded within Hollywood films. And what it became instead was delving into people's past and present political allegiances, who they associated with and their personal political beliefs.

[Alison Stewart]

What was the fear?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

What was HUAC trying to get out of people?

[Ann Lessy]

I think that's a great question. Some believe that it was an opportunity to elevate themselves as politicians. This was a very popular story covered breathlessly by the press and radio and eventually television. You know, this was a period where the Cold War was ramping up and there were a lot of fears of growing Soviet power around the globe. And for many, it was also a chance to reassert a more conservative vision for the country. They were suspicious of New Deal programs and the upheaval of both the Great Depression and World War II.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Was it a case of them weaponizing patriotism for the country?

[Ann Lessy]

I think that's an excellent way to describe it. And really it was a contest between who was being the patriotic American. Was it those who resisted these invasive questions, fought for their first and Fifth Amendment rights? Or was it the committee members who were investigating possible communist ties?

[Unnamed Interviewer]

We're talking about the exhibit An American Story. It's about how the government targeted actors and actor act. Sorry, excuse me. Actors and artists based on their alleged subversive political views. It's on display at the New York historical now through October 19th. Why was the film industry and artistic expression at large, why was it so important to huac?

[Ann Lessy]

I think that's a great question. I do think, once again, the power of film became clear during World War II. And the way that the government harnessed it to promote the war effort I think made people more aware of this mass entertainment and its power and how it connected with audiences. I think some people feel that the visibility of successful Jewish Americans also made it a target. There were avowed segregationists and anti Semites on the committee. And so their, you know, racist and anti Semitic viewpoints may have also informed it. There had also been a lot of labor unrest in the film industry during the 1940s. And that may have also made it a target.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Were other fields in their view, music, literature. In HUAC's view, yes.

[Ann Lessy]

They didn't get the same industry wide scrutiny, but certainly eventually television and radio would also adopt blacklists. You would see in the larger red scare authors being targeted, such as Langston Hughes, with evidence such as a poem, as being allegedly subversive. There were also labor unions were placed under scrutiny. A number of organizations were blacklisted out of existence, particularly that dealt with peace, anti fascism, racial justice.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

How did it work? How did HUAC work? What happened? Did you get a call? Did you get a letter? How did it work?

[Ann Lessy]

Well, you got a subpoena from Congress. And one of the things that we try to walk through in the show is how different this is from a trial. You don't have the opportunity to cross examine your accusers. You don't have the opportunity to review evidence. And really there's such an uneven platform. Most of the witnesses that they deemed unfriendly or accused of being communist sympathizers weren't even allowed to read their statements, whereas witnesses who were supportive of HUAC's mission were allowed to speak at length.

[Alison Stewart]

Was there much resistance within the government, HUAC at the time?

[Ann Lessy]

I think that that's an excellent question. I think that initially President Truman seek to push back some of the more conservative changes and proposals coming out of the Congress. But I think ultimately the anti communist fervor gained so much power that it really started to overwhelm both politics and culture in the 1950s.

[Alison Stewart]

I'm getting a message here that says the chair of HUAC was for a while a Republican congressman from New Jersey. Yes, J. Parnell Thomas.

[Ann Lessy]

Yes.

[Alison Stewart]

Tell me about him.

[Ann Lessy]

Well, the most interesting thing is he determined that he would revive huac, that he would make the film industry its target. He did not last long because he was found to have engaged in financial misconduct and ironically ended up at the same prison as some of the Hollywood 10 who would be incarcerated for refusing to answer his questions.

[Alison Stewart]

You brought me to my next question. Tell me about who the Hollywood 10 were.

[Ann Lessy]

Right. So this was a group of 10, primarily screenwriters and a director. They had the misfortune of being part of the group of 19 that were initially subpoenaed. And a number of them really just in some ways bad luck, were ended up being the first speakers. But they were really committed to refusing to answer the questions about their Political affiliations. They did not want to answer, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party? And they didn't want to answer the question about guild or union membership. They had all prepared statements to try to express their belief and patriotism, their belief in rights and protections, and many were silenced and not permitted to read their statements.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

There's a great picture of the 10 of them headed up the stairs.

[Ann Lessy]

Yes, that's an. I mean, there's a number of incredible images, but that one is very powerful. So they were held in contempt of Congress. They made appeals through the judicial system. There was a composition change at the Supreme Court. So by the time their appeal had reached the Supreme Court in 1950, the composition had changed and the Supreme Court declined to hear their appeal. So their conviction was upheld and they were sentenced to up to one year in prison. And they had already been publicly fired by the film industry.

[Alison Stewart]

Tell me about the Waldorf Conference and.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

How that relates to the Hollywood 10.

[Ann Lessy]

Yes. So about a month after the initial hearing, there was a secret convening at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel, primarily of studio heads in the film industry. And many had more liberal backgrounds. Even in their own testimony had really stressed that they weren't interested in prying into people's personal lives. They cared about the end result, the product. There was also concern that any adoption of a blacklist would be against the law because it would be industry wide and you'd have different companies colluding. But in the end, they decided to voluntarily adopt a blacklist, saying that their mission was to protect the film industry and, you know, keep the business thriving.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Why did they capitulate so easily?

[Ann Lessy]

That's an excellent question. And there are some figures who were involved who had been friends with and worked with the Hollywood 10. So I. But I think they felt the political and cultural pressure. The newspapers were relentlessly poring over this story, and I think they hoped it would ease and calm the Red Scare, and instead it probably fanned the flames.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

How did blacklisting affect the kind of stories that were told in film?

[Ann Lessy]

Yeah, I think that's an important question. Many of the films as you referenced the FBI started reviewing films and writing reports. There was a real discouragement against social dramas that explored social problems. So issues such as anti Semitism, for example, Gentlemen's Agreement or Crossfire film noir. John Garfield film called Pride of the Marines that was criticized because it showed and depicted the struggles of veterans trying to readapt to civilian life after the war. So there was. These were seen as Unpatriotic. And there was very much discouraged.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

You had different people reviewing the films. Who were the people who were reviewing the films for communist behavior or anti patriotic behavior?

[Ann Lessy]

Right. Well, you had the committee staff and members going through materials. You had the FBI doing many investigations and providing information to the committee. But then you also had other groups combing into the lives of creatives and artists who were part of the film industry. So the veterans organization, the American Legion, was very active and published its own list. Many people will be familiar with Red Channels, which was compiled by retired FBI agents and listed in depth any possible communist tie by many creatives. And it would include things like your newspaper subscriptions, you know, any single event you may have attended that championed peace.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Did the blacklisting just impact the Hollywood industry or did it bleed out into other causes?

[Ann Lessy]

It definitely bleeded out into other causes. I mean, certainly the federal government faced a purge during this time. We saw labor unions also are forced to purge communist members and sign affidavits. There are also a series of organizations such as the Civil Rights Congress that worked on racial justice and Veterans Group that were scrutinized and really blacklisted out of existence. Because once you had been tagged a subversive organization, it was incredibly hard to move forward. And people were very frightened of the potential consequences of being labeled a communist.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

What are some of the films that people might think of that were really affected by HUAC and about them going after the Hollywood and the blacklist?

[Ann Lessy]

That's a great question. I mean, I guess for me, I think about one of my personal favorite films, Roman Holiday. It was written by one of the Hollywood 10, Dalton Trumbo. But after he had served his time in federal prison in Kentucky and he had to write it under a pseudonym, he asked a friend to serve as a front. So he wrote the script, but couldn't get credit for it, couldn't be paid at his previous rate. And it took decades to get that actually corrected. So you had to work in secret and forego any recognition of your work.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

It won the Oscar, right?

[Ann Lessy]

Yes, it did. And it really took a campaign decades later. So four decades after the release of the film, he was finally recognized as the writer.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

We're talking about the exhibit An American Story. It's on view at the New York Historical Society. New York Historical.

[Alison Stewart]

Thank you. I'm talking to Ann Less, the assistant.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Curator of history exhibitions. Let's talk about theater, Broadway and theater. They never adopted a formal blacklist. Why did they chart a different path than the film industry?

[Ann Lessy]

I think that's an important question. It seemed as if in the Post World War II era, the government was less interested in theater because it wasn't a mass entertainment. There also were no corporate sponsors that they needed to placate. And we see that the New York theater community and Broadway became an important space where you could produce critique and social commentary about the Red Scare. Perhaps most notably, Arthur Miller's the Crucible is seen as an important commentary, comparing the 1950s Red Scare to the Salem witch trials. And then also working actors who couldn't hide under a front or a pseudonym, you know, developed theatrical projects. Some would perform for the Union Theater 1199 or other sympathetic smaller audiences just to try to keep making ends meet, but also to stay creative.

[Alison Stewart]

Did actors leave Hollywood for New York?

[Ann Lessy]

Yes, many did and many had New York ties. Many were from New York, so it was a return, but they were shut out of not only the film industry at that point, but also radio and television.

[Alison Stewart]

How did the blackest list end and when did the studio start to back away from it?

[Ann Lessy]

Well, there's no moment where it definitively ends. We look at a few different moments where it's called cultural powers punctured. Many people point to the 1960 release of Spartacus. Dalton Trumbo had written that film. Kirk Douglas was the star and his production company produced the film. And he insisted that Dalton Trumbo be recognized for his work. And it was such a popular and critical success. And even the following year, John F. Kennedy crossed an American Legion picket line to see the film. So that also helped to break the bridge blacklist. And so you saw over the course of the 1960s, some being able to return to the entertainment industry. But some, of course, never had that opportunity and really barely survived the Red Scare. Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

Did the government ever officially acknowledge or apologize the damage done to blacklisted individuals?

[Ann Lessy]

No. I mean, I think that it's important to realize that a figure such as young Richard Nixon, when he was a member of Congress, was on QAC and in, you know, six short years he became a U.S. senator and then Vice President and as we know later became President. Ronald Reagan was president of the Screen Actors Guild and was seen as very sympathetic to the anti communist campaign. And obviously he was, went on to have a very successful political career.

[Alison Stewart]

What long term impact did the blacklist have on Hollywood and its relationship with the government?

[Ann Lessy]

Well, I think that's a great question. I think that we see that the impulse is that Hollywood would rather self regulate rather than wait for the government interference. But it will respond to popular and political pressure. I think that there was a great discomfort with addressing social dramas. You see film noir start to fade. Some of this is taste changing, but it's also, I think, an effect of the blacklist as well. And the ways that certain kinds of progressive liberal left coalitions and political activity was really put to bed that people were afraid of joining in loose coalitions and aligning with anyone who might be tagged a communist.

[Alison Stewart]

I want to ask you about the.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

Exhibit a little bit. What's an artifact in the exhibit that you really believe is powerful?

[Ann Lessy]

Well, we developed for our show a map about the reach of the Red scare that captures a nationwide map that details local and state and regional hearings. And it was important for us to recognize that ordinary people with no celebrity, no ties to Hollywood were also impacted. I will say we also have a beautiful costume of Lauren Bacall when she. It's a costume she wore in how to Marry a Millionaire, the film she made with Marilyn Monroe. She's someone who initially had really wanted to defend the First Amendment, formed a committee with other members of Hollywood, but they really backed down once the blacklist is adopted and retreated from those positions. Wrote publications. Her husband, Humphrey Bogart, wrote in Photoplay magazine, I'm no communist. So we see how quickly the ground shifted and potential allies felt they had to retreat and retract.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

And something I did want to mention, and I should have mentioned earlier, was how did the lavender scare. How is that factored into the blacklist?

[Ann Lessy]

Yes. So around 1953, President Eisenhower announced a purge of gay and lesbian individuals from the federal government. I think that this is an example of how red scares, they keep having to produce more enemies within, whether it's communists in the film industry, gays and lesbian individuals and federal workers, that they're keeps being new enemies that have to be investigated. And it has really opened the gateway to very invasive intrusions and investigations and surveillance of your personal life, your personal relationships, your own ideas and associations.

[Unnamed Interviewer]

It's interesting because the word communist is being tossed around a lot today. This is Donald Trump last year on the campaign trip. I think that we're hitting a nerve. I think this is a different kind of a race. All we have to do is define our opponent as being a communist or a socialist or somebody that's going to destroy our country. When you hear politicians, any politician, calling people communists today, what does that bring up for you as a historian?

[Ann Lessy]

I think it's so important to engage in critical thinking about what. How do we treat political dissent? If you hold an unpopular position? Should you be punished? Are you banned from your chosen profession? What kind of consequences should you face? And I think that honestly, it's always important to be thinking about our democracy, how to make sure it's healthy and robust, and also how can we collectively best protect our freedoms and rights.

[Alison Stewart]

What's your favorite thing in this show which you'd like people to spend a few more minutes looking at?

[Ann Lessy]

I would say there is a beautiful pamphlet created from 1947 by the Civil Rights Congress and it's called Thought Police. We use one of the images as our signature images, but it shows police officers who are covering ears, eyes and mouth of individuals. And I think that really captures that idea of policing thought.

[Alison Stewart]

The name of the exhibit is An American Story. It's on display at the New York historical now through October 19th. My guest has been Ann Less, the assistant curator of history exhibitions at the New York Historical. Thank you so much for coming in.

[Ann Lessy]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Alison Stewart]

Coming up on Monday's show, the upcoming season of the New York Times podcast, the Retrievals continues its look at women's pain. C sections are one of the most frequently performed major surgeries in the world, so why do so many women feel pain during them? Host Susan Burton joins us for a preview. And that is all of It. All of it is produced by Andrea Duncan Mao, Kate Hines, Jordan Loft, Simon Close, Elle Malik Anderson, Luke Green and Pilar Belendez Deshaw. Megan Ryan is the head of Live Radio. Our engineer is Julia Anna Fonda. We had help this week from Shayna Senstock. Our interns are Francesca Bazzi and Sam Shmia. Luscious Jackson does our music. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening and I appreciate you. I'll meet you back here next time.

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