What's the Best Cheese? (Small Stakes, Big Opinions)

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "What's the Best Cheese? (Small Stakes, Big Opinions)"

Episode Information:

• Title: What's the Best Cheese? (Small Stakes, Big Opinions)
• Host: Alison Stewart
• Guest: Adam J. Moskowitz, Third-Generation Cheesemonger
• Release Date: January 13, 2025
• Duration: Approximately 34 minutes

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Introduction to the Cheese Debate

Hosted by Alison Stewart, the episode delves into the beloved and sometimes divisive topic of cheese. As part of the ongoing series "Small Steaks, Big Opinions," this installment invites listeners to share their passionate views on all things cheese—whether they love it, hate it, or have quirky experiences involving cheese.

Meet the Guest: Adam J. Moskowitz

Adam J. Moskowitz, a third-generation cheesemonger and owner of a cheese importing company, is introduced as the expert guiding today's discussion. His background spans across tech and the music business, bringing a unique blend of sales acumen and event production experience to the world of cheese.

Notable Quote:

"Flavor really is taste, touch, and aroma. And aroma does trigger things in our body actually. Like, it's part of the limbic system, so it's part of fight or flight." — Adam J. Moskowitz [04:24]

The Journey to Becoming a Cheesemonger

Adam shares his initial aversion to artisan cheeses as a child, particularly the strong scents that often deter young palates. His transformation into a cheesemonger was driven by familial honor and the necessity to understand and appreciate the products he would sell. This hands-on experience awakened his senses and fostered a deep appreciation for diverse cheese flavors.

Notable Quote:

"Cheese transports you to a sense of place. Cheese eating is part of our original diet DNA." — Adam J. Moskowitz [06:05]

Understanding Cheese: Types of Milk and Their Impact

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the differences between cow, goat, and sheep milk cheeses. Adam explains how each type of milk contributes to distinct flavors, protein structures, and fat contents. He emphasizes that the animal's diet and care directly influence the final cheese's taste and texture.

Notable Quote:

"Sheep has that lanolin note, whereas goat has what some will call the goaty note or the barnyardy note." — Adam J. Moskowitz [11:01]

Listener Stories and Recommendations

Listeners call in to share their personal cheese experiences and preferences. From unconventional pairings like blue cheese with Nutella to sushi incorporating pecorino romano, the segment highlights the versatility and global appreciation of cheese.

Listener Call Highlights:

• Bill from Dover, NJ [07:25]: Shares his family's unique combination of blue cheese and Nutella.
• Judy from Upper West Side [08:42]: Describes a sashimi dish featuring shaved pecorino romano.
• Annie from Bushwick [12:50]: As a fellow cheesemonger, she emphasizes introducing others to new cheeses.

Introducing Cheese to the Hesitant

Adam offers strategies for introducing cheese to individuals who may not initially enjoy it. By understanding their flavor preferences—whether sweet, sour, salty, bitter, or umami—he can recommend cheeses that align with their tastes, making the experience more approachable and enjoyable.

Notable Quote:

"Cheese consumption is like a gradual process. You become cheese curious, you become a cheese lover, you become a cheese enthusiast, then you become a terrifyer." — Adam J. Moskowitz [09:51]

Cheese Storage and Preservation Tips

Addressing listener questions, Adam provides practical advice on how to store cheese properly. He advises against keeping cheese at room temperature permanently, recommending instead to let it sit out for an hour before consumption to enhance flavors while maintaining its integrity.

Notable Quote:

"Cheese is very impressionable. It's like a young child. It takes on the characteristics of its environment." — Adam J. Moskowitz [19:04]

The Appeal of Stinky Cheeses

The episode explores why certain cheeses are celebrated for their strong aromas despite their off-putting smells. Adam explains that the pungent scents are often a byproduct of the fermentation process, enhancing the overall flavor profile.

Notable Quote:

"Soft ripened, washed rind cheeses are the cheeses that often bring the biggest funk." — Adam J. Moskowitz [30:41]

European vs. American Cheese Traditions

Adam contrasts European and American cheese consumption habits, noting that Europeans typically enjoy cheese as a post-dinner delicacy to aid digestion, whereas Americans often incorporate it into appetizers. This cultural difference reflects varying approaches to meals and palate cleansing.

Notable Quote:

"Cheese is meant to help you digest. It's a pre digested cheese is made like using actually a digestive." — Adam J. Moskowitz [31:56]

Affordable vs. Expensive Cheeses

The discussion moves to the perceived cost of cheese, distinguishing between expensive artisan cheeses and more affordable options. Adam highlights that higher-priced cheeses often offer more complex flavors due to their handcrafted nature and limited production, while also encouraging listeners to consult their local cheesemongers for quality recommendations within their budget.

Notable Quote:

"Cheese is one of the cornerstone foods that built civilization." — Adam J. Moskowitz [28:41]

Edible Rinds: What's Safe to Eat?

Listeners inquire about the safety and edibility of cheese rinds. Adam clarifies that while many rinds are edible and enhance flavor, personal preference plays a significant role. If a rind's texture is unappealing, it can simply be trimmed off without sacrificing the cheese's quality.

Notable Quote:

"If the texture bothers you, then don't eat it. Cut it off." — Adam J. Moskowitz [19:23]

Final Thoughts and Listener Engagement

As the episode wraps up, Adam responds to final listener questions, reinforcing the importance of experiencing cheese firsthand and being open to diverse flavors. He reiterates his passion for cheese as a means of creating meaningful connections and encourages ongoing exploration within the cheese world.

Notable Quote:

"Your cheesemonger is like your Sherpa of cheese yumminess." — Adam J. Moskowitz [14:39]

Conclusion

Alison Stewart thanks Adam for his insightful contributions, highlighting the episode's exploration of cheese's cultural significance, diverse flavors, and practical enjoyment tips. The episode successfully combines expert knowledge with interactive listener participation, making it an engaging listen for cheese enthusiasts and novices alike.

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Key Takeaways:

• Cheese Appreciation: Understanding the different types of milk and cheese-making processes enhances appreciation.
• Taste Evolution: Introducing cheese to hesitant individuals requires personalized recommendations based on flavor preferences.
• Cultural Practices: European and American cheese consumption habits reflect broader cultural attitudes towards meals and digestion.
• Practical Tips: Proper storage and handling of cheese are crucial for maintaining quality and flavor.
• Community Engagement: Local cheesemongers play a vital role in guiding cheese enthusiasts and fostering a deeper connection with the culture of cheese.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Flavor really is taste, touch, and aroma." — Adam J. Moskowitz [04:24]
• "Cheese transports you to a sense of place." — Adam J. Moskowitz [06:05]
• "Cheese is meant to help you digest." — Adam J. Moskowitz [31:56]
• "Your cheesemonger is like your Sherpa of cheese yumminess." — Adam J. Moskowitz [14:39]

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This detailed summary encapsulates the rich discussions and insights shared in the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the full podcast.

Transcript

[Alison Stewart]

WNYC Studios is supported by Carnegie hall presenting the Philadelphia Orchestra led by Yannick Nezes again in a program of Mahler's 9th Symphony and Songs for Murdered Sisters written in collaboration with Jake Heggie and Margaret Atwood January 15th. [e-mail].

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Listener supported WNYC Studios.

[Listener]

This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you are here on today's show. Shira Ito is here. She is both the director and the subject of the new documentary Black Box Diaries about her journey navigating Japan's legal system when dealing with sexual assault. Critic Katherine Van Eredent, kva, as we call her, she'll join us to talk about this new year in TV premieres and how the business will be impacted by the wildfires. Speaking of the wildfires, the regional manager for preparedness at the local Red Cross will be in studio to explain how we can prepare to navigate disasters. That's the plan. So let's get this started with your hot takes on cheese. As you know, we do an occasional series called Small Steaks, Big Opinions. We asked you to call in and share your deeply felt beliefs on topics like where does upstate New York begin? Are you pro or con cruises? Today we are talking cheese. We are starting this year's slate with a topic that we know you will have opinions about. Do you love or hate cheese? If you like it, tell us why and what's your favorite. If you don't, why not, give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You can also text us at that number or you can reach out to us on social media. Llnyc. Or maybe you can tell us where's the strangest, weirdest place you've ever seen cheese incorporated into a meal? We'd like to hear about that as well. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC joining us for this conversation is Adam J. Moskowitz. He's a third generation cheesemonger. He runs a cheese importing company. He is also the brains behind a couple of cheese competitions. More on that later. Adam, welcome back to all of it.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Why thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

[Listener]

I love your shirt. What does your shirt say?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Last night at Cheesemonger saved my life.

[Listener]

Perfect. Perfect for this conversation. Apparently you did not like cheese as a kid.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

I mean I didn't like artisan cheese. I think all kids love cheese. It's part of our. It's really part of our original meal plan. I didn't like the stinky stuff as a kid. What turned you around being a cheesemonger? I took a job in the Lower east side as a cheesemonger to honor my family name. And as a cheesemonger, you gotta try the cheese, right? You don't wanna sell something, nobody doesn't know what it is. So I tried the cheese and it just awoke in all my senses.

[Listener]

Could you define what a cheesemonger is?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

A cheesemonger is the person that sells you cheese.

[Listener]

Period.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

End of story.

[Listener]

All right. How does one become a cheesemonger?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

They get a job at a cheese shop and or become a cheese professional. Cheesemonger traditionally is the person at the counter cutting and selling you cheese. I call myself a cheesemonger. Technically I'm really a cheese importer, but I sell a lot of cheese as a cheese importer and people really resonate to the name cheesemonger.

[Listener]

Is there. Is it regulated? Is there a governing body of cheesemonger or do you just become one? Do you become like a. What is it like?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

It's actually like a minimum wage job. It's like you can just apply at like go to Murray's and apply to be a cheesemonger. It'll be one of the greatest jobs you ever have. There is like a governing body that called the CCP American Cheese Society put out the certified cheese professional program. But that's kind of more of a milestone on a career path than something that allows entrance.

[Listener]

So you sort of learn about it on a job in a way, hundred percent. What is something that you learned by virtue of doing it that you could never have learned in a book, you could have never have learned in culinary school?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Easy. Doesn't smell like it doesn't taste like it smells.

[Listener]

Okay, more. Tell me more about that.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Well, just like our smell is the first part of flavor. Flavor really is taste, touch, and aroma. And aroma does trigger things in our body actually. Like, it's part of the limbic system, so it's part of fight or flight. So often a cheese, for example, might smell like feet, for example, be really stinky, but when you taste it, it actually tastes like onions, garlic, leek. So, yeah, it doesn't always. It often doesn't taste like it smells.

[Listener]

You didn't work originally as a cheesemonger. You worked in tech, you worked in the music business. What from those experiences helped you as a Cheesemonger.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Oh, wow. As a. In the, in the music game, it was being an event producer, party promoter. So I, I have an alter ego called Mr. Moo, where I rent out broken steel and throw a cheesemonger competition and, and a cheese rave, basically. So up on stage in a cow costume, and I get people to scream moo bama at me. In the tech world, sales, I was a sales guy. So sales, sales. And then more importantly, like, just understanding, like, the power of the Internet and creating a deeper. More like, to me, the Internet really fosters connection, but what cheese is fostering is meaningful connection. So that was, I'd say the biggest thing for me with cheese is wanting to have a more deeper, meaningful moment with people that I couldn't necessarily get on the Internet.

[Listener]

Now that you like cheese, now that you're for cheese, what is it about it that appeals to you?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Oh, my God. Cheese transports you to a sense of place. Cheese eating Cheese is part of our original diet DNA. For thousands and thousands of years, we've been eating cheese since 6000 BC. Cheese was a core food that we ate. In fact, for thousands and thousands of years, all we did was prepare for dinner, couple that with our first food memories. The first food we ate was milk and then macaroni and cheese, grilled cheese pizza. So cheese, whether I think we realize it or not, deep in our subconscious is like where our happy place is. But then also for me, cheese is. There's very few foods that are welcome at breakfast, lunch, dinner, snack, and late night snack. There's very few foods that when you ask for more of it, it only makes it better. There's very few foods that have such a varied amount of texture, taste, and arom. To say it bluntly, I'm really the amount. 1 out of 1000 people do not like cheese. Too many people are lactose intolerant and yet really, really might risk destroying the room for a bite of cheese.

[Listener]

Let's take some calls. Bill is calling from Dover, New Jersey. Hi, Bill, you're on the air.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

[Listener]

Yeah. Let's hear your cheese story.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Well, we come from a family of cheese lovers, and as my dad approached.

[Caller]

His 80s, he suddenly started eating blue cheese, just about any kind of blue.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Cheese with Nutella at a weekend breakfast, German breakfast that we would have at our house. And I just remember the first day that happened.

[Caller]

We all just stared at him. How can you combine those two flavors.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

On one piece of bread is just amazing.

[Listener]

He loved it, though.

[Caller]

So gambazola, Danish blue, But with Nutella, it was just, oh, my God.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Makes perfect sense to me, actually.

[Listener]

Why does it make perfect sense?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Blue cheese is notoriously bitter, and dark chocolate is also bitter. Nutella is obviously not bitter. It's a little bit more sweet. But. But like opposites, right? The intensity of a blue coupled with the sweetness of a chocolate is a really nice foil to each other. Also, cambozola is actually like a breeze style blue. It's a soft ripened blue. So the texture on texture is like creamy, creamy on doughy.

[Listener]

Got a text says I don't eat meat and I never get bored of cheese because of the variety. And I love to mix it into my scrambled eggs. Let's talk to Judy on line four, who is calling us from the Upper west side. Hi, Judy. Thank you so much for calling all of it.

[Caller]

Good morning. Good morning. Hey, you know, there's a sushi restaurant that I go to in Port Washington called Tiga T I g A and they use cheese in amazing ways. And I'll give you an examp recently had a sashimi dish. It was yellowtail. They had candied walnuts, caramelized grapes, yazu dashi, and shaved pecorino romano. Unbelievable. They have an amazing Instagram feed. Tiga3NY T I G A3N Y. Definitely check it out. But it's one of the most unusual uses I've seen of cheese in food. So thank you for having me.

[Listener]

Thank you for calling, Judy. My guest is Adam J. Moskowitz. He is a third generation cheesemonger. As part of our Small Steaks Biggest Opinion series, we are talking cheese. Call in and share with us your strongest cheese take. What's your favorite take, tape type and why? Give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. So if a person comes to you and says, I don't like cheese, but I'm willing, I'm willing my favorite to give it a shot. What do you serve them?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

I first start with like, what do you like best? Sweet, sour, salt, bitter, umami. Then I ask them if there's any flavor notes that scare them or they're drawn to. Right. So like, do you like barnyardy? Do you like funky? Do you want it to be fruity? Do you like vegetal? And then from there I try to give them some layups. So I'd give them like a, like a aged Gouda or Gouda if you want to pronounce it correctly, or Gouda if you really want to pronounce it correctly, that basically tastes like maple butterscotch. So it's like candy in your mouth. I would also go to, like, things that are accessible, that you might be familiar with. Parmigiano, Reggiano. But do an aged one that will give you these, like, very sweet, caramelly punchy notes. And that's where we start. We start. For me, I believe cheese consumption is like a gradual process. You become cheese curious, you become a cheese lover, you become a cheese enthusiast, then you become a terrifyer. So if I've got somebody that's curious, I try to give them some layups. That gives them some momentum, that gives them a little bit of courage.

[Listener]

We. Aside from the obvious difference between a goat's milk cheese, a sheep milk, and cows.

[Alison Stewart]

Goat.

[Listener]

Sheep. Cows. Is there a difference?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Sure. There's a difference in flavor. There's a difference in protein structure. There's a difference in fat content. Also, there's availability. Sheep, for example, is only milked five months out of the year. So that's why sheep cheese, historically, could be a little bit more expensive. We also know that sheep has that lanolin note, whereas goat has what some will call the goaty note note or the barnyardy note. And then cow is something I think we're most familiar with. I love all of them. It took me a minute to like goat cheese. Fresh goat cheese could be, like, really like, the way I describe it is not very favorable. It's kind of like, I won't use curse words. It's like taking the foot of a goat and dropping it in. And then urine is kind of sometimes how fresh goat cheese and not to yuck anybody's yum. See, one of the cool things about cheese is that, like, I like getting people to think about flavor notes they wouldn't think is good. Right. Like, I love nail polish remover notes. Right. Blue cheese, it's called. It's called acetone. Right. So I love those notes and blue cheese. People who love provolone, traditional provolone, that flavor note is butyric acid. That's actually kind of like the baby vomit note. And so, like, I like. I like dementia. I like taking power out of words and taking words that are like, yes, I understand. Okay, so what was the question? The difference between cow, sheep and goat? Yeah. I mean, think about it also as it relates to their size. So, like, the way. And a simple way to look at those milks is to think about as it relates to your digestion and how more easy it is for you to digest. That milk based on the size of the animal.

[Listener]

Let's take some more calls. Let's talk to Annie from Bushwick. Hi, Annie, you're on the air.

[Caller]

Hi, can you hear me?

[Listener]

I hear you. Great.

[Caller]

Hi. It's actually Ani. I'm a cheesemonger myself and I love getting people to try things that they wouldn't normally, you know, try as well. I think that that's the key to selling cheese is getting people to just open their mouths and give it a shot. Because there's so much out there and it's really exciting getting first time cheese, you know, enthusiasts to try something new. It's like kind of the most thrilling part of the job.

[Listener]

Thanks for calling, Ani. Let's talk to Howard from Forest Hills. Howard, you're on the air.

[Caller]

Yeah, I had a cheese store two blocks from me, so I had a ton of cheese. So the ones I recommend for great goat cheese is Humboldt Fog from California. Delicious goat cheese. You know, for a gouda, I like Rembrandt. Gouda. It's an aged gouda. What else? Morbier, I like a lot also. That's very good. And triple cremes. I like triple cremes, like Pierre Robert and San Andre. And if someone never had cheese before, everyone likes San Andre. That's what I would recommend. But Humble Fog is my favorite.

[Listener]

Probably your thoughts.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Humble Fog is like very similar, kind of an homage. And send up to the triple cremes. Triple cremes if you like. The cool thing about cheese is like, you've heard, like the cream rises to the top or like the fat of the land. The San and the triple crams are a food version of those statements. So like the fat of the lamb, the cream of the crop. Try a Brilliant Savarone or a St. Andre and you will taste what that sounds like.

[Listener]

Where in America is the cheese capital? You've heard about Europe, but I'm curious, like, where in the United States, cheese.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Making or cheese eating?

[Listener]

Let's start with the making, then go to the eating.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

All right, well, the obvious is Wisconsin. Everybody knows of Wisconsin, but California and Vermont are right there in terms of cheese production, eating. I think historically New York and then San Francisco. But cheese consumption is spreading. What's happening is cheese mongers are going to new cities and creating outposts of cheese consumption. So there's great cheese shops now in Des Moines, Iowa, in New Orleans, in Minneapolis. The encouragement I would give everybody is seek out a cheesemonger and they will be your Sherpa of cheese yumminess who.

[Listener]

Would you like to give a little shout out? Someone that's doing a little above and beyond the call of duty?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Ooh. From a cheese maker point of view, the hot up and coming cheesemaker is Blakesville Creamery Veronica Pedraza. But I would say also the stalwarts are Jasper Hill. Big shout out in Wisconsin to Andy Hatch at Uplands. You want to try campfire in your mouth, go get a Rush Creek reserve. But then I would also like to shout out my wife for being a wonderful supporter of me as I embark on my cheese journeys.

[Listener]

We are talking to Adam J. Moskowitz. He's a cheesemonger, third generation. It's part of our small Steaks big opinion series. We are talking cheese. Do you love cheese? Call and tell us why. Where's the weirdest place you've ever seen cheese served? 212-433-969-2212-4433 wnyc. We'll be right back.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

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[Alison Stewart]

NYC now delivers the most up to date local news from WNYC and Gothamist every morning, midday and evening with three updates a day. Listeners get breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from across New York City by sponsoring programming like NYC now. You'll reach our community of dedicated listeners with premium messaging and an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to get in touch and find out more.

[Listener]

Okay, you heard me say that I'm okay. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart and I'm okay with me is third generation Adam J. Moskwith. Third generation cheesemonger, I should say. It's our small stakes and our big opinions. Okay, so is that a friend's house Saturday and he had. I can't remember the name of it, but it had ash down the middle of it.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Yep.

[Listener]

What was the ash? It was good. Yeah.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Well, the ash historically is there to like help prevent. When there's ash and cheese, it's typically because the cheesemaker is making cheese twice. Milk comes in twice a day. They're making cheese throughout. So the ash is a historical way of subverting insects.

[Listener]

Interesting.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

But now it's more of just like a Look thing now and then. It's also a game of like. So you're having ash. So like we've heard today, Moibie. And we've also heard humble fog. Those two cheeses are known for having an ash center.

[Listener]

How should we keep cheese? I've heard it's in refrigeration. That's not good. You should bring it to room temperature. It should be kept room temperature.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

No, I wouldn't keep it at room temperature. I would eat it at room temperature. That's a simple touch test. Sit it out for an hour. Excuse me. Cheese is very impressionable. It's like a young child. It takes on the characteristics of its environment. So wrapping cheese in plastic, although it's often done, if that's what's happened, I implore you to face the cheese, which means scrape it with the end of a knife to get off the shiny bits. I like to store cheese in its own microclimate. So I'll put cheese in a container. What are those called? I can't all of a sudden.

[Listener]

Tupperware.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Yes. There you go. Thank you. I put it in Tupperware, typically. Or I'll wrap it in paper like fermaticum cheese paper, for example, or parchment paper is great.

[Listener]

All right. We have got a mix here. Someone says, I've always loved cheese, but there are only certain cheese I will not go near. I love brie, but I do not enjoy the mold around the edge.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Yes, my wife calls that the diaper Penicillium candidum, the bloomy rind of the bloomy cheese. You can eat it, you cannot eat it. I'm a big believer with cheese of going where it's warm and delicious. So if that. That's really part. It is part of the chees. You can eat that rind, but if the texture bothers you, then don't eat it. Cut it off.

[Listener]

Cut it off. This says I love cheese. All caps, by the way. I love cheese. But good cheese has become so expensive. Please ask your guests to talk about some cheeses that are more affordable.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Oh, I knew the expensive part was going to come. Just waiting. So first I'd like to just frame. Is it expensive or is it valuable? Because the cheese that is perceived as expensive is also handmade, handcrafted, travels great distance, is limited in production and also often with dollar comes flavor. So you get a lot more flavor per cent. For less expensive, I would go like. The cool thing about cheese is go find your cheesemonger and talk to your cheesemonger. Your cheesemonger is like your cheese. Food feeder. Therapist. Sensory Svengali. Caretaker. Matchmaker. Cheese caretaker. So go find them, give them a price point and a flavor note or a combination of oats you're looking for, and then they'll take you on.

[Listener]

This is a good question. How do you ask for samples at a cheese store? How many samples can you ask for?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Oh, that's. Read the room.

[Listener]

Read the room, read the room.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

If there's a long line and everybody's trying to get their Thanksgiving cheese, then let's be mindful of other people and be considerate. If there's nobody in the room, go on. Like, ask what? Cheesemongers love to talk about cheese. So get them rolling, wind them up, and like, God knows where you're gonna go. Go. Just eat, eat, eat. But. Bye. By.

[Listener]

Let's talk to Bernice. Hi, Bernice. Thank you so much for calling.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Hi.

[Caller]

First, I want to give a shout out to a wonderful cheese store in Pleasantville, New York, called Second Mouse. It's fantastic. But my family and I were out in Ashland, Oregon, for a wedding, and we stumbled upon Rogue Creamery. We went every single day that we were there because the cheese was so fantastic. And sometimes Whole Foods will carry it. My cheesemonger at my cheese store carries it. And my favorite of theirs is called Smoky Blue. And I love a good cheese that just. You're five minutes later, you are still smacking your lips.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Amen.

[Listener]

Thanks, Bernice.

[Caller]

And that's why you can spend a lot of money on a good cheese. Because you don't need much to satisfy that wonderful urge for something absolutely delicious.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Praise, you preach.

[Listener]

Let's talk to Craig. Hey, Craig, thanks for calling, all of it. Hey, Craig, you on the air?

[Caller]

Hey. Thank you for taking my call.

[Listener]

Go for it.

[Caller]

Yes, can you hear me?

[Listener]

Yes, we hear you. Great.

[Caller]

Can you hear me?

[Listener]

I do. I hear you. Do you hear me?

[Caller]

Okay. Thanks for taking my call. Yeah, thank you. I just wanted to give a shout out to a cheesemonger. I'm not going to tell you the name of the town she is because it's a very precious town. I don't want to rule it. Her name is Emily, and I've been to her place 100 times, and I finally asked her, what is the secret of your cheese? Why is it so much better than most other places? And she said, because my farmers don't wear gloves. And I think she was referring to the EU rules about sanitation and so forth. And I'd like to ask your guests about Vacheron Mondor. If it's possible to get that cheese in the unpasteurized form anywhere in the United States. It's the greatest cheese in the world.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Shout out to Emily too. Not sure who you're talking about, but God bless you. Regarding the sanitary standards, there's a kill step in cheese. So, you know, I think she was also speaking about that metaphorically in terms of like, like they're being hands on approach to making. Regarding Vacheron Mondor. Getting a raw milk version is in fact illegal. You can have raw milk cheese not aged over 60 days brought into the US which Asprey hall makes a cheese called Winamere and Andy makes Rush Creek Reserve. Those are versions of. Those are soft ripened cheese wrapped in spruce bark. There's also a petit vaccarinas that comes in that's thermized, which is like kind of like pasteurized but also kind of like raw milk. But yeah, shout out to Vacheron Mondor. I love Swiss cheese like that.

[Listener]

Let's talk to Barbara online too. Hi, Barbara, thanks for calling us.

[Caller]

Hi, how are you? I couldn't help but call. Hello, Adam, this is Barbara with five Smoke Creamery.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Hi, Barbara.

[Caller]

I'm calling because. Hi, how are you? I'm calling because of course we love cheese. We love cheese so much, my husband And I, that 15 years ago we upended our life, bought a dairy farm in Goshen, New York, and we make only raw milk cheeses.

[Listener]

Tell us about it. Tell us more. We want to know more.

[Caller]

Well, two of probably our most popular ones are because we wanted to make European style cheeses. Our Harvest Moon, which is our take on a mimolette and tumbleweed, which is like a cross between a cheddar and a cantal. And you know, like if you're in the ice cream business, you make vanilla ice cream. We make also just, you know, cheddars that are very successful for lots of restaurants and hotels, you know, melting and whatever. And we make some, you know, we make a limited variety, a limited amount of cloth bound because we have to age it for so long. But yeah, so I love. We love cheese. We love all cheeses. When we go to Europe, we go to the cheese shops and buy whatever they have and you know, it's crazy. We just love cheese, dairy farmers in our old age.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

What I think is also great about Barbara is that like they make cheese but they also age cheese, then they also sell the cheese, then they get out on the road and market their cheese. The great thing about the cheese business, the artisan cheese business, is that the people involved are fascinating people doing a lot of hard work.

[Listener]

Well, what affects the caliber of cheese?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Well, first the animal. How do you treat like cheese is controlled decomposition of milk. It is pre digested milk. What the animal is eating, how it's treated, how the milk is cared for is the true essence of how a cheese tastes. Then it's of course I look at cheesemakers kind of like chefs of milk. And cheese is a flavor footprint of a given day because you're milking every day. And so time of year, what you do to the milk, meaning how you cut it, how you heat it, how you press it, how much you salt it, the starter cultures that you use, the rennet that you use, how you wash it, all these various determining factors create different flavor profile.

[Listener]

What should I, what if, what will I see on a label that I should maybe put it back? I pick up some cheese or something and I see in this on the.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Label I'm like processed cheese food.

[Alison Stewart]

Yes.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Process cheese, but like, like so crazy. So I'm lactose free and I eat cheese because she's a fermentation converting lactose to lactic acid. People often confuse artisan cheese with let's say American singles. American singles or the shredded cheese. That stuff has actual milk in it as a core ingredient. Therefore there's lactose in it because that's where the lactose is. So processed cheese food is something I would like to avoid. And then any of the gummies, if you don't understand the word, consider a pause.

[Listener]

Let's talk to Aaron in Brooklyn. Hi, Erin, you are on the.

[Caller]

Hey, thank you so much for this. I'm a total cheese nerd. I had a poster of French cheeses growing up in my bedroom. Two questions for you. The first is would you agree that a poiss is like the platonic ideal of all cheese? The second question, which a little different, is why is it so hard to get good Quebec cheese here in New York? Quebec is the second largest cheese producing region outside of France. And I still can't find oka here.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

I didn't understand the first question. I'll just shout out A plus in terms of.

[Caller]

Is a plus like the greatest feasible time?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

If you, if you agree, I would agree that if you love like George Clinton level funk in your mouth, like you want ultimate true funk, then yes, in the terms of the wash rind category, in terms of your Canadian question, Canada really kind of has a strong quota and a control over their dairy business. And so it's just, I think part of like the Challenge of exporting and importing that cheese is that, like, they have the audience up there. It's a limited production, and I think they like to keep it up up there.

[Listener]

This says, I love, love, love cheese, but now have to be on a super, super strict low saturated fats diet. Can you recommend any good cheeses with 5% or less DV in saturated fat per serving?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Oh, my God. I wish I knew the egg. I got lost in all those big words.

[Listener]

Low fat cheese.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

The fat of cheese is good fat. I don't know how to say it. And I think. I think worrying about, like, I wanna remind everybody that we've been eating cheese since 6000 B.C. cheese is one of the cornerstone foods that built civilization.

[Listener]

I'm holding. Is it challahhacker cheese?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

No, you gotta think about it like, that Chalarchakar cheese. It's almost like Larry David challah, challah cheese.

[Listener]

Okay, my favorite. My favorite. This came in. What am I gonna experience when I buy a piece of this?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

The texture's gonna be fudgy, and you're gonna be hit with brothy, meaty, leaky, garlicky kind of note.

[Listener]

All right, let's talk to Susan from West Orange. While I enjoy this, I understand there's gouda as well. Could I have some of the goo gugge in here too? Yeah. Susan from West Orange.

[Alison Stewart]

Go.

[Listener]

I'm gonna eat cheese while you talk to my guest, Adam J. Muskowitz.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Hi.

[Caller]

Hi.

[Listener]

Yeah, you're on the air.

[Caller]

I have a question. You know, no one, no one has mentioned, like, stinky cheeses like Limburger. And that was, like, one of the first cheeses I was introduced to as a child. Besides the, you know, all American cheese for grilled cheese sandwiches. But the. The Limburger cheese, my mom liked that so much. Like, I mean, it was the smelliest cheese I ever smelled in my life. Never heard of it until she started eating it. She'd want to have her Limburger cheese and crackers with a beer. And it was like, like, no, I'm leaving the house. It smelled so bad. It was like stinky socks or whatever. Stinky feet. I was like, no way. No way am I staying in the house with this going on.

[Listener]

What are some of the stinkiest cheeses that are delicious but they are stinky?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Me.

[Listener]

Yeah.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

I mean, Limburger's definitely one of them. We were just talking about a poiss, basically. So. So soft ripened, washed rind cheeses are the cheeses that often bring the biggest funk. And the soft, ripened Part is that gooeyness. And then the wash rind part is an orange rind. And that wash rind. We want the smell. We encourage the smell. It's actually the bigger the smell, the bigger the bee linens. What other cheeses are like that? Off the top of my head, I'm like, fantastic.

[Listener]

This challah haaker is so fresh.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Yes.

[Listener]

It's not like, oh, I'm having cheese. Like, there's something sort of like grassy in my mouth. It's really good.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Yeah. It is a pure expression of the Swiss Alps. And that's why I like, for me, a great cheese is a cheese that's snackable. I could eat it like popcorn. If I could, like pound a quarter pound to my face, I'm stoked. And that's one of those cheeses.

[Listener]

Here's another question for you while I try your Gouda. Why are Europeans, strictly after dinner, cheese eater versus appetizers like us Americans?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Well, because cheese is meant to help you digest. It's a pre digested cheese is made like using actually a digestive. And it's meant to cleanse your palate and set you up for second dessert. So that's my understanding of it. It's like a full. It's kind of like the ginger of the meal. We eat it first. I actually don't understand why we. I try not to eat it first as an appetizer myself.

[Listener]

This says, is the rind of Manchango or Drunken Goat really edible?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

No. Yes. I mean, anything's that. If you could chew it. If you could chew it and swallow it, it's edible. Do I eat the rind of Manchego or Drunken goat? No. Now we're talking about natural rinded cheeses. I typically don't eat the natural rind. I eat cheeses that are. When I eat a rind, I'm typically eating a rind of a soft ripened cheese and. Or a lactic set cheese. So cheese that has the diaper like Brie or Camembert, and cheese that's like wrinkly, like fresh goat cheeses.

[Listener]

The Gouda you gave me is so creamy.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Yeah.

[Listener]

And it is just satisfying.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

So I try to get past the term creamy.

[Listener]

So I. Oh, I'm sorry, is that a bad word?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

No, no, no, no, no. There's no bad words. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, my thing with creamy, I have like a whole thing. It's a thing about creamy because I want people to. Really. The cool thing about cheese is it allows you to be reconnected with yourself and your senses. And creamy is a word that we often associate with cheese. If you think about muenster, you think about Havarti. If you think about that. Really taste sweet, sour, salt, bitter, umami. What do you taste?

[Listener]

I'm eating now. I think it's sweet.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Agree. I think it's sweet very much. It's definitely sweet and salty. And then I would challenge you to think about like. All right, let's go to aroma. Is it caramely?

[Listener]

Caramelly?

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Caramelly. Is it fruity?

[Listener]

No, it's caramelly.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

It's caramelly, right? Yeah, exactly. It's caramelly. So then it's like. But is it butterscotchy?

[Listener]

Yes.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Yes. There we go. Okay. And now back to texture. Creamy. To me, creamy is like. Isn't it like cream cheese? Creamy isn't like butter kind of creamy. So that's not creamy. And I'm not faulting you. We all go to creamy fast and furious.

[Listener]

But I'll think about it differently now.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Maybe fudgy.

[Listener]

Okay.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

You know, maybe fudgy like or you know, remember the candy wax that we eat as kids? Maybe it's waxy in a good way.

[Listener]

I have to think about this.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

I love it.

[Caller]

Good.

[Listener]

You don't have to think about.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

Yes, please think about it.

[Listener]

Our guest has been third generation cheesemonger Adam J. Moskowitz. Thank you for being with us and thank you for answering all our listeners questions and for the cheese.

[Adam J. Moskowitz]

My pleasure. Thank you.

[Alison Stewart]

WNYC Studios is supported by Carnegie hall presenting the Philadelphia Orchestra led by Yannick Nezes again in a program of Mahler's 9th Symphony and Songs for murdered sisters written in collaboration with Jake Heggie and Margaret Atwood. January 15th. [e-mail] NYC now delivers breaking news, top headlines and in depth coverage from WNYC and Gotham every morning, midday and evening. By sponsoring our programming, you'll reach a community of passionate listeners in an uncluttered audio experience. Visit sponsorship.wnyc.org to learn more.