B (3:29)

You know, I mean, everyone that I talked to did say that they'd encountered, you know, some kind of skepticism or judgment either from like people in their lives or from strangers, you know, or from the Internet. I mean, I think part of it is, you know, naturally like humans judge each other's relationships all the time. But I do think in this kind of particular moment, this like kind of post me too era that we're in, there is an especial attention to perceived power dynamics and particularly like online, this sort of growing group of people who just feel that any relationship between an older person and someone say younger than 25 is an abuse of power.

C (4:26)

Yeah, let's talk about that age differential of 25. That's one of the things you hear a lot from anti age gap voices, that one of the things they say is the brain isn't fully developed until 24. And some of them will even refer to people as 18 to 24 as you write literal children. You talked with an expert on adolescent development named Lawrence Steinberg. What did he tell you about when adulthood starts?

B (4:52)

You know, there's not sort of a sharp line for, you know, how people who, you know, people define adulthood. It's something that like shifts between like time and place and culture and obviously like, you know, when he's been doing this kind of research for about 50 years and when he started, you know, people became people were considered to be adults, you know, when they turned 18, basically, you know, I mean if you think about, you know, you can vote.

C (5:21)

You can go to war.

B (5:22)

Yeah, exactly. Like the idea that we can, like, send someone to war, but that they are not grown up enough to date someone 10 years older than them is pretty wild. I mean, when I was talking about the piece with a friend of mine, she was like, you know, if we just kind of reinstituted the draft, this whole conversation would go away. Like, it wouldn't. Wouldn't be an issue anymore.

C (5:46)

When you were reporting the story, what were some of the questions you had going in?

B (5:52)

You know, as a reporter, I'm always curious to talk to people involved in these actual relationships. I mean, it was interesting looking at the Twitter conversation afterwards because I saw someone say, like, you know, the people who are actually in these relationships don't know anything. They have nothing to tell us because they're, like, so brainwashed or whatever. It's like, that's a. For me, as a reporter, like, that is. That's not my perspective. Like, I'm always curious to understand how the people sort of at the center of whatever it is I'm writing about, like, actually feel about their lives. So that was what I was coming into the conversations with. Just, like, I wanted to know, of course, like, how they met and how they felt about the age difference. And what actually really was my takeaway from most of the conversations was that the age difference didn't really affect them. Especially, I mean, when it really began to make a big difference was at the end, towards end of life, you know, not in the beginning.

C (6:59)

I was going to ask about that. Did anyone you speak to really talk about, you know, when you're dating someone who is. You're 50 and that person's 70, when you're 70, they're 90. You may end up in the role of caregiver.

B (7:13)

Yeah, I mean, everybody kind of talked about that idea, like, looming in the future, because if you stay together, then that's what will probably happen, you know, and people had different feelings about that. I mean, I did actually. I interviewed one of my colleagues, grandmothers, who I quote at the end of the piece. And she was in her 50s and he, Norman, her third husband, was in his 80s when they met. And they met at, like, a tennis tournament. And yeah, they were married for, like, I mean, he lived to 104. And she really felt that she extended his life. It was like he was himself until the very end. And that was a point of pride for her. So, I mean, people, I think, feel, you know, many different ways about it.

C (8:02)

Let's take some calls. Laurie is calling in from Long Island. Hi, Laurie. Thanks for calling all of it.

D (8:08)

Hi there. Happy to speak with you. So this is my story, and it might be a little unusual. I'm not sure. I am now 68 years old, and my husband is 52. We've been together for 30 years, approximately. He was 21 and I was 36 when we met. He was an old soul. Just an old soul. And I'm very immature. So it worked out, really. So it really worked out well. Fortunately, he always looked older and I always looked younger. So he thought when he met me, I was 36. He thought I was, like, in my 20s, and I thought he was probably in his late 20s. And I still thought, wow, that's, you know, that's too young for me, whatever. But to make a long story short, we did pursue each other. He tried to get my number. I said, no, no, this is crazy. And I took his number. And I thought to myself, I'm never going to call this. This is absolutely insane. And I thought about him for months and months, and I decided to call him. And we met. And ever since then, it's just been quite the love story.

C (9:18)

Love hearing question. When you first. You said, you were like, no, no, I can't do that. Why did you think initially, no, no, no, I can't do that. What was the inner, inner voice, the inner Laurie saying to you?

D (9:32)

Well, I guess, like you were discussing before, how could I do this? I mean, let's say I start dating this person. Let's say I marry this person when I'm, you know, 60, he'll be 45. When I'm 70, he'll be 54. Whatever. The thing is, that's crazy. That's insane. And when did ask me to marry him? I was 40, he was 25. My brother, who's like my father at the time, I said, what am I going to do? He wants to marry me. And those questions again came up. I said, what am I going to do when I'm 60 and he's 4 and blah, blah, blah. And my brother said, you know what? Even if you stay with him 10 years, it'll be the happiest 10 years of your life. I'm going to cry now.

E (10:12)

And a lot of people can't even.

D (10:14)

Say that, you know. And We've been together 30 years, and I was able to have a child at 43, I believe, naturally. And then we wanted another one. And I tried again at like 44, 45 and a half, I started trying. I had six miscarriages in a year and a half. Oh, Lord, am I dying? Yeah. And My doctors were saying, forget you, have you. And I also had a child from my previous marriage. That husband passed away. And in fact, this husband took on a 6 year old child and an older woman at 25 years old.

C (10:48)

Oh, can we give him a shout out? What's his name real quick?

D (10:50)

George.

F (10:51)

George.

C (10:53)

We salute you, George. And we salute you, Lori as well. Lori said something interesting, Lila, that I think was in one of your profiles where she said, even if you. Somebody, her brother said it. Even if you get the 10 years.

B (11:06)

Absolutely.

C (11:06)

That's a happy 10 years.

B (11:08)

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people talked about that and I think a lot of what I felt when I was doing these interviews that came up again and again is just this, you know, it's hard to find someone you love and it's hard to make any marriage work. So when you find someone that you're really compatible with and both people feel that way, I think it's, you know, it's irresistible. And so, you know, I think there is this thing that you hear again and again. A lot of people would say, you know, I was uncomfortable with the age gap, but then like, here we were and we loved each other and. And they went for it.

C (11:43)

Let's talk to Paige from West Harlem. Hi, Paige, thanks for calling, all of it.

E (11:48)

Hi, thanks for, thanks for taking my call.

C (11:51)

You're on the air.

E (11:54)

So I have a history, a tendency, a habit, an inclination, whatever, towards dating older. I am 28, my boyfriend is 45. I'm queer. And so this kind of goes across like all genders. It's not specific to any one gender. And actually when my boyfriend I started dating, or we're kind of heading towards dating, I told him I was like, I have a tendency to date older. I really don't want to do it. He was like, I totally get it. But, you know, I liked him so much I kissed him anyway. And now here we are. And for me, it's worked out really, really well. We met super organically doing theater. We have. Most of our friends are mutual friends. But, you know, I get on with his friends who tend to be older, and he gets on with my friends who are, who are younger. And so for me, it's worked out really, really well so far. I'm really happy. But, you know, there is this kind of complicated power dynamic thing with the ages. I think, especially when it's a younger woman, older man, that's like kind of a common trope. And that's also where people get a little bit nervous. And I Think on one hand, that's totally true. There's always kind of a different power dynamic. I think when somebody's older, they tend to have more money, more connections, more whatever. And so that can get. That can get complicated fast. I think there can really easily be kind of an abusive power situation going on there. But, you know, I think on the flip side, and I know I have felt this when people come to me and say, I think you're making the wrong choice. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. You don't, like, just wait and see. That, to me, feels really infantilizing and actually like it's taking away my own agency. And it's a little bit ironic because when these people are speaking to me, they're kind of trying to force me to see that actually this relationship is taking away my agency and infantilizing your kind of whatever. And so I find that to be a little bit of an ironic and challenging. Challenging twist in that conversation.

C (13:56)

Paige, thank you for calling in. You touched on a lot of these points that Paige made in your piece. Lila, let's talk about that power dynamic. You know, that idea that sometimes the older individual had more money or more experience. Experience and whatever. And that is a sense of power in many ways.

B (14:15)

Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's no denying that the older partner could potentially have more power than the younger partner. And obviously that dynamic, you know, can be abusive and has been abusive. On the other hand, I mean, I think it's also like a quite a simplistic way to think about what power is. You know, youth and beauty are also powerful, you know, especially in our sort of society that worships those things, you know. But I think any relationship has power dynamics that can potentially be exploited and harmful. And there's a sort of, as I understand the kind of discourse around this, like, it's a sort of simplistic and, like, almost comforting sort of way to judge these relationships. Because it's almost to say, like, okay, well, there's something visible here that we can point to and say, you know, that's bad. And it's almost a way of, like, sort of saying, I'm not like that. Or like, oh, I'm with someone my age, so I don't have to worry about that. I'm good. It's this sort of, like, you know, looking for this, like, kind of very basic simplistic fact and drawing a judgment that's not necessarily, you know, based in reality, but obviously it can be.

C (15:30)

Let's hear from Ed from Manhattan Hi, Ed. Thanks for calling, all of it. You're on the air.

G (15:36)

Hello. Yeah, I'm. I've always usually dated younger, and currently I'm. I will be 57 next week. And she's 30, but she's, you know, got her doctorate and her PhD, and we have great conversations and great connection, and everything that I plan on saying has been said before. Like, I find it hypocritical that they, you know, there's this. There's this slant towards giving a woman agency, having her voice heard, letting her speak her truth, and then going, but you don't know what you want now, oh, no, he's no good for you, or he's too old, or what about children, et cetera, et cetera, or things like that. And it's just. It just kind of boggles my mind that we make these. These hypocritical choices about when somebody can speak or what. As your guests were saying, what power is like, you know, there's always agency, you know, and I always encourage all my partners to realize, yeah, I'm older. Yeah, I have experiences, but that just means I've been doing it wrong longer. Doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about. So always have the agency and the power of. No.

C (16:39)

You know, Ed, if you feel comfortable telling me this, and if you don't, you can just say, pass. Is there a reason why you said, I date younger? Is there a reason why you date younger?

G (16:52)

Just because the act, it's kind of a bias. But the athleticism and my, you know, the things that I do, I'm retired from the police department, etc. And just I'm very active. And I find that women my own age, 57 and like that, they, well, they can't keep up. I'm sorry to say that. But also to, you know, and a lot of them have children and they have family structures that I just don't connect with, you know, so that's been my reason. But I'm always, you know, staying open to what the universe provides. But usually it's younger.

C (17:25)

Ed, thank you for your honesty. Appreciate it. We are talking to Lila Shapiro. She wrote a piece for New York Magazine about age gaps and why people don't really. Some people don't believe that people in age gap relationships are having a good time and it's working out for them. You know, there's a. I think you mentioned it in your piece, and it's actually been a real public relationship. Was the actor Florence Pugh and Zach Braff, and she's quite a bit young. She what? They dated for a long time. She was quite a bit younger. And we pulled a piece from her Instagram of her responding to people having issues with her relationship. Let's listen.

H (18:05)

I'm 24 years old. I have been working since I was 17 years old. I have been earning money since I was 17 years old. I became an adult when I was 18 years old, and I started paying taxes when I was 18 years old. I'll underline this fact. I am 24 years old. I do not need you to tell me who I should and should not love. And I would never in my life ever, ever tell anyone who they can and cannot love. It is not your place, and really, it has nothing to do with you. So if. If those rules are something that you do not like, then please unfollow me, because the abuse that you throw at him is abuse that you're throwing at me. And I don't want those followers.

C (18:57)

What is behind. And we're not saying it's wrong or right. As you mentioned, this Internet community that feels like they're doing the right thing by saying, hey, these young women don't understand this. Some people go as far as to use the word grooming. I'm not sure what my question is exactly. My question is, what are they saying? Why do they think they need to do this? What do they think they're doing that is right?

B (19:25)

Right. Well, I mean, I think to begin with, we have to sort of go back to the fact that these types of relationships, for most of time, most of American history, say, have been sort of romanticized and glamorized, certainly Hollywood history that's been a facet of Hollywood movies and, like, idealized love, you know, since movies were made, that, like, a much younger woman is with a much older man. And that is something to be. To aspire to. So, I mean, I think partly it's driven by this sense that, like, this is normalized. And we want to say that it shouldn't just be. It shouldn't. It shouldn't be normalized, essentially. I mean. And why shouldn't it be normalized? Well, yeah, because of this. This sense among people online that and not online that, like, that there is something kind of inherently distressing about it. And this, you know, often the people that are leading the conversation online will, you know, making videos on TikTok and writing essays about it will talk about the fact that they were once in relationships with older partners, you know, and they felt they were abusive. So there's this sense that they're like, something bad happened to me, and I want to try to do something so that it won't necessarily happen to other people. I mean, the problem, though, is that, like, you know, as we hear in that, you know, in the, in that Instagram clip of Florence Pugh, is that, like, it's quite offensive to a younger partner who feels that, like, they are in, you know, full control of themselves and their lives and their be. They're with the person they want to be with. So, you know, there's this, like, tension between the fact that, like, you know, you want to sort of protect women, but at the same time, like, you are trying to protect women who are saying, like, I'm good. And there's not, I don't think, like, a real solution to that problem except, like, perhaps we should mind our business or other things like that. But I think that the impulse comes from this idea that, like, that there's something that's sort of, like, alarming happening that should be, you know, called attention to.

C (21:49)

My guest is Lila Shapiro. She's a feature writer for New York Magazine. She wrote a piece for the Cut called the Age Gappers. They say they're happy. Why is it so hard to believe them? We have many happy age Gappers on our phone board, which will take some more calls after a very quick break. This is all of it. This is all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Lila Shapiro. She's a features writer for New York Magazine. She wrote a piece called the Age Gappers. They say they're happy. Why is it so hard to believe them? So lyly, you want to circle back to something Ed said. Ed from Manhattan, who said he likes to date younger because he's, he's very athletic and active, and he felt that younger partners could keep up with him. And you said this was something you heard, but you heard it from women.

B (22:44)

Yeah, I mean, something that I think older partners of both genders talked about is this realization when they started dating after their first marriages ended that, like, partners their own age were either. Yeah. Couldn't keep up with them or were just sort of uptight or, say, had baggage and, you know, in. In the form of, yeah. Children from a first marriage or whatever. And this is often baggage that they themselves had. But the fact was they were looking for someone who was younger and, like, had vitality. And this is, yeah. Something men and women talk about. And I think it's like, it reads different coming from a man because of sort of the history of patriarchy and gender ideas and ideas about sort of sexism and misogyny and whatever. But it's, it's actually like, I think a, quite a, it can be quite a human impulse. Like you want someone energetic and exciting and you're like, yeah, it's a, it's.

C (23:50)

Or you don't. Maybe it's the other way around.

B (23:52)

Or you don't. Or you. Yeah, exactly.

C (23:54)

You have a different lifestyle and you.

B (23:57)

Find someone that matches it. I mean, it was interesting actually. I interviewed my biggest age gap couple. She was 36 and he was 75. So close to like 39 year gap, but she had Ms. And so in fact, like, she was like, actually we're really at the same pace in how much energy we have and what we want to do. And also they were like, and who's taking care of who? I mean, it was interesting. So it's like, obviously that's a huge gap. But at the same time they were like they had found something that was working for them and there was this match or our first caller brought it up too, that she was immature and he was 21 and actually they were the same age. It was like, that's something a lot of people talked about on both the older and the younger partner. The sense that they were either immature or more mature than their peers. And for whatever reason they just found this person of another generation that matched them in some way.

C (25:00)

We got this text that we were sort of chuckling about during the break and we're going to use it to talk about something serious, but the text says all of it. If a 70 year old man is good stock and wants to procreate, should he prefer a 60, 65 year old woman? I think that was a rhetorical question for us. So not going to answer that. But I'm going to bring up the idea of when you did talk to these couples, when the subject of children came up, what did you hear?

B (25:31)

I mean, you know, obviously like when there's a big age gap, the mortality question, you know, looms in a different way than it does without kids. I mean, one couple that I interviewed talked about how like, I think they had a 20 year gap and their daughter is five. And you know, a few weeks before I spoke to them, the daughter said one night, daddy, like, aren't you a lot older than mommy? And doesn't mean that you're gonna die, like you're gonna die first. And they were like, oh, she's figured it out. You know, I think it's obviously that's like. That's hard. And a lot of older partners who had kids especially talked about, like, the pressure they felt to, like, stay fit and work out and, like, maintain their health and all of that stuff. And also just, like, the anxiety they had about, like, yeah, like, probably they will die a lot earlier and, like, the kid will be left alone younger.

C (26:31)

And the partner will be left to support the household. Yeah, let's talk to Kate from Brooklyn. Hi, Kate. Thanks for calling in.

D (26:41)

Hello.

F (26:42)

Yeah, I'm Kate. I'm 32, and my girlfriend is 54. I know it's pretty common in queer couples to have a big age gap, often more than hetero couples. But I sort of pursued her, and it was one of those things where we both, you know, I thought she was younger and she thought I was older. And at the beginning, we tried to be friends because it seemed weird. And then it just sort of gave way. And basically what we found is we were so anxious about it, and we went to all of our respective friends hoping that someone would say, no, it's a horrible idea. And kind of no one ever bid. So, yeah, it seems to be working out, and I have zero complaints.

C (27:27)

Kate, thanks for calling in. We had someone else who's always queer and asked, is there any. Are there any studies about queer couples and age gaps versus hetero couples and age gaps? I don't know if there are. If you encountered anything or just anecdotally. If you didn't, it's fine.

B (27:44)

I don't know about any. If there are any studies that, like, look at that specifically. I do know that, like, yeah, historically it's been much more common. Partly. I mean, I think Dan Savage pointed this out when I was interviewing him. You know, like, when. Like, when Dan Savage was, like, in high school, you know, in Chicago, whatever, many decades ago, like, he didn't know any other out people his age. So it was like, oh, if he's gonna, like, find someone, he's gonna find someone who's older, who's, like, experienced, who knows how to find other gay people. So, you know, there's, like, that history. I don't know. Like, dance advocate actually wasn't sure if it was still more common than it, you know, used to be. But it's definitely something that I think is more accepted. And I think that this came up in a lot of conversations, too. I think part of it is that, like, part of the discomfort with a big age gap is the sort of, like, way that it will deviate from a stereotypical, like, heteronormative you know, relationship which we really imagine, you know, being geared towards like marriage and children and, you know, living your life sort of in step together and, you know, it's, you know, more unconventional. And I think, you know, queer relationships are somewhat like relieved from those pressures, you know, among other reasons why I think it might be, you know, slightly more common.

C (29:12)

Talk to Julie, calling in from Jersey City. Hi, Julie.

F (29:16)

Hey, thanks for having me on. So, full disclosure, I'm single. I am not in any relationship with any sort of age gap or not. But something I can't help but keep coming back to mentally, especially when I read your article is like, you know, gender diversity within these couples. I was really impressed that your article has such a diversity of queer heterosexual couples, you know, men, women. But anecdotally a huge pattern I've seen and something you pointed out earlier is that this seems like this disproportionately affects younger women and older men. And in a culture where women kind of one of the few ways they, they're able to have cachet is by being young and beautiful and athletic. And where does that leave older or middle aged women who are not seen as quite as beautiful as they used to be or do have kids? And I mean, I feel like one of your previous callers even mentioned this. He preferred younger women because they were athletic and could keep up with him. And it's something I just can't quite let go of in terms of, you know, we want to erase the stigma from these relationships, but it seems like it kind of is in favor of older men in particular. But that could just be my perception.

D (30:32)

I'd love to get your thoughts on that.

C (30:35)

What do you think from your reporting, you know, observations?

B (30:42)

It is much more common. Like, I mean, the number, there weren't new numbers, but I think the last time there were, you know, good census data, it was like, you know, 8% of couples are like older men, younger women, 1% are older women, younger man. So yeah, I mean, do you think.

C (31:01)

It'S just, is it a cultural thing? Is it just what we're used to seeing in media, what we've seen in the movies, what we've seen play out?

B (31:09)

Yeah. Like, if you think about, I mean, there are different like theories, I think that explain this. I mean, if you think about like Hollywood history, like, you know, how are who traditionally made casting decisions? You know, in Hollywood it was like older, older white men and picking, you know, women they found to be attractive who were, you know, young and beautiful. But I don't know, like, I think that that's obviously like a discomfort that some people might feel and it's hard to know how much reality there is to it. I think that obviously like there are like human beings are like diverse and varied and find many things attractive. And it's kind of simplistic to say that like everyone prefers this, but obviously there are people who do.

C (31:55)

Before I let you go, I was curious if there, if you found it with the couples you interviewed, if there are moments in life when the age gap doesn't seem as disparate. So, you know, like a 26 year old and a 36 year old, it seems pretty close, but it might seem farther away when someone's 66 and 76.

B (32:14)

Yeah, I mean I came to feel that like after speaking to people with like 30 year gaps, I came to feel that 10 years was meh. Was pretty, pretty light stuff. I mean you're basically part of the same generation at point that. But yeah, I think generally that like when both people are in middle age, those differences become small. Even like, you know, say like 35 and 50. Like, I don't think that's a really meaningful.

C (32:43)

I did that.

B (32:45)

Yeah. Yes. Spread of time. And it's also, it's so, as you say, it's so personal to what you individually find attractive. You know, like, which everyone has actually, I think like. Or I, I suspect this is my theory after having written this. It's like people have their own internal ranges of what they personally find hot. And I think part of this discomfort is just driven by if you don't find it attractive, then it's bizarre and mystifying. But if you do, then you're like, oh, I get it.

C (33:17)

There was that great quote from Macron's wife, the president, France's wife is much older. Will you share that? We'll end on that quote.

B (33:24)

Yes. She talked about how, you know, every morning she came, you know, something like he comes down with her, his youth and beauty and she's there with her old face and that's just the way it is. And they're happy.

C (33:40)

The name of the piece is the Age Gappers. They say they're happy. Why is it so hard to believe them? It's from Lila Shapiro. Thanks to everybody who called in and shared their stories. And thank you, Lila, for coming to the studio.

B (33:50)

Thank you so much for having me.

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