What's Your New York City Tattoo?

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It — "What's Your New York City Tattoo?"

Podcast: All Of It (WNYC)
Host: Alison Stewart
Guests: Dave Herman (founder & curator, City Reliquary Museum and Civic Organization), Michelle Miles (tattoo artist & co-curator, Daredevil Tattoo Shop and Museum)
Date: September 12, 2024

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Overview

This episode dives into the unique and vibrant world of New York City-themed tattoos, centering on the cultural significance of Lady Liberty as a recurring icon. Host Alison Stewart is joined by Dave Herman and Michelle Miles to discuss a new exhibit at the City Reliquary, "Liberty the Tattooed Lady," chronicling the history of Statue of Liberty tattoos and the broader world of tattooing in NYC. The show features listener calls sharing personal tattoo stories and reflections on the meaning behind their body art.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. NYC’s Historic Role in Tattoo Culture

• Statistical Context: One-third of Americans have at least one tattoo; 22% have multiple (00:16).
• Origins in the Bowery: The modern tattooing process developed in NYC’s Bowery, a hub for working-class entertainment and tattoo innovation (03:46).
  • Michelle Miles: “The very first professional tattooer was on the Lower East Side...listed in the directory in 1858.” (03:46)
  • First electric tattoo machine patented on the Bowery in 1891.
  • Tattooing grew alongside the city’s reputation as both gritty and creative.

2. The City Reliquary & The "Liberty the Tattooed Lady" Exhibit

• The Reliquary was founded post-9/11 to "help people feel that civic pride...while preserving its history" (02:02).
• The current exhibit focuses on the Statue of Liberty in tattoo history, blending archival art and contemporary designs, emphasizing collaboration with local artists like Michelle Miles (02:58).

3. Tattooing’s Underground Years

• Tattooing was illegal in NYC from 1961 through 1997. Many, like Michelle, worked underground (07:06).
  • Michelle Miles: “I started tattooing in 1991. So I worked for six years underground before it was legalized. In all that time, nobody was ever actually busted for tattooing in New York.” (07:06)
• Legalization coincided with shifts toward mainstream acceptance, increased hygiene standards, and public confidence.

4. Statue of Liberty Tattoos: Cultural Meaning & Technical Challenges

• Meaning: Lady Liberty is described as a “secular saint”—a unifying, iconic figure (11:04).
  • Dave Herman: “She has that same sort of religious iconography and the power of association that many people find in religion...for getting a Statue of Liberty tattoo, you are becoming a part of history itself.” (11:04)
• Design Aspects: The face and hands are technically trickiest; the crown (with seven rays) is immediately recognizable and a focal detail (11:59, 18:04).
  • Michelle Miles: “The rays...are not actually the crown—they’re supposed to be reflected light off her head.” (18:04)
  • Dave Herman: “She’s supposed to have seven rays...on my arm, I want to make sure she’s got seven rays.” (18:33)

5. Trends and Shifts in Tattoo Culture

• Tattooing has evolved: once an outsider’s badge, it’s now mainstream.
  • Michelle Miles: “You used to get tattooed to be out. Now you get tattooed to be in.” (12:34)
• Styles, techniques, and clientele have broadened, including more experimentation and a revival of traditional designs (28:45).
• Tattoos are increasingly embraced as personal, empowering choices that reflect identity, artistry, and self-determination (28:05).

6. Personal Stories: Listener Calls and Guests

• Listeners shared stories of tattoos celebrating marathon accomplishments, commemorating loved ones, and marking personal histories (06:10–14:18).
  • Doris’s story: A blurry, old astronomical tattoo is considered iconic rather than needing touch-ups (09:11).
  • Emotional moments: Tattoos memorializing family, places, and significant life events, such as a daughter getting a cartoon mouse in memory of her mother (16:35).

7. Artifact Highlights & Community Connections

• The exhibit features rare items: early acetates, stencils, and flash sheets—tools and templates from tattoo history (07:51).
• The collaborative effort involved matching stencils and designs found in disparate collections, uniting them for the first time (15:18).

8. Cultural Appropriation & Identity in Tattoos

• Discussion on indigenous designs: Historic trends reflected both exoticism/chic and, today, more personal reclamation.
  • Dave Herman: “...in history...people have been exploring other cultures...we would refer to that as cultural appropriation...Hopefully doing it today in a respectful way and an acknowledgement that you’re doing that from a position of privilege and admiration.” (22:17)

9. Tattooing Ethics, Care, and Logistics

• Artists’ Responsibility: Michelle affirms responsibility to decline tattoos when motives seem questionable. She has also helped cover unwanted tattoos for trafficking survivors, collaborating with authorities (25:23).
• Technical Q&A:
  • Allergies: Black ink is rarely problematic, even for those with allergies such as nickel (19:28).
  • Age & Skin: Tattooing older skin may be trickier due to sun exposure but is generally not problematic (19:59).
  • Health standards: High levels of sanitation expected—shops should feel as clean as a medical office (20:16).

10. The Emotional Resonance of Tattoos

• Tattoos as both public art and personal talismans. Listener stories affirmed tattoos as ongoing touchstones for identity, community, and memory (26:43, 27:20).
  • Michelle Miles: “Tattooing is this thing that you do choose. As I get older...I love my tattoos—it’s the one thing that really expresses who I am.” (28:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "She’s sort of what we call a secular saint." — Dave Herman (11:04)
• "You used to get tattooed to be out. Now you get tattooed to be in." — Michelle Miles (12:34)
• “If you want another sharp tattoo, you have another shoulder.” — Tattoo artist (Doris’s story, 09:17)
• "On my arm, I want to make sure she’s got seven rays." — Dave Herman (18:33)
• “I love my tattoos...it’s the one thing that really expresses who I am.” — Michelle Miles (28:05)
• “You kind of make yourself the artifact.” — Dave Herman (11:04)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Tattoo History in NYC, Origins – 00:16–04:41
• Illegality and Legalization – 07:05–07:45
• Listener Stories (including iconic tattoos, marathon) – 06:10–14:18
• Meaning of Lady Liberty & Design Details – 11:04–12:27, 18:04–19:16
• Community, Collaboration, and Artifacts – 07:51–09:04, 15:18–16:14
• Cultural Appropriation and Identity – 22:04–24:34
• Health & Safety, Tattooing Older Skin – 19:28–20:10
• Emotion & Empowerment in Tattoos – 26:43–28:42
• Current Trends in Tattoo Styles – 28:45–29:17

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Themes and Tone

• Warm, conversational, celebratory. The episode conveys reverence for tattooing as both a communal and highly personal cultural practice, rooted deeply in NYC’s legacy. The guests expertly balance historical knowledge, technical detail, and lived experience, while listeners’ stories underscore the power of tattoos to carry memory, meaning, and pride.

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Exhibit Information

Liberty the Tattooed Lady

• City Reliquary Museum
• 370 Metropolitan Avenue, Brooklyn, NY

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For New Yorkers and fans of body art alike, this episode explores how tattoos carry our stories, unite communities, and keep NYC’s ever-shifting culture inked into history.

Transcript

[A]

Listener support WNYC Studios.

[B]

This is all of it on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. A 2023 study from the Pew Research center found that about one third of Americans have a tattoo and 22% of adults have more than one. And for a century, New York has been the center of the tatt world, with the modern tattooing process taking shape right here in the Bowery. A new exhibit at the City Reliquary focuses on the history of tattoos here in New York and one type of ink in general, Tattoos of the Statue of Liberty. For decades, New Yorkers of all stripes have loved getting Lady Liberty inked on their body. The exhibit contains vintage photos and designs of old statues of Liberty tattoos, as well as images of modern Lady Liberty designs. The exhibit is titled let's hope I get this right. The Tattooed lady, the Great Bartholdi Statue depicted in tattooing. It's up now at the City Reliquary Museum and civic organization in Williamsburg. I'm joined now by the founder and curator of the museum, Dave Herman. Hi, Dave.

[C]

Hi.

[B]

And along with his co curator, tattoo artist Michelle Miles of the Daredevil Tattoo Shop and Museum. Nice to meet you as well.

[D]

Thanks for having us listeners.

[B]

Let's hear from you. Do you have a New York themed tattoo? Could it be of the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building? Maybe even a pizza rat? We want to hear about your New York City inspired tattoo, what it means to you. What? Or maybe you want to give your favorite tattoo shop a shout out. 2124-3396-9221-2433-WNYC. You can also hit us up on social media at Olive nyc. We like pictures of tattoos too. You can send those to social media as well or you can call or text us at 212-433-9692. We are talking tattooed. Okay, so people who don't necessarily know about the city Reliquary started, tell us how it started. It's a cool story.

[C]

Oh, yes, thanks. Well, first of all, thank you, Alison. In here, it's really an honor. I mean, we're no longer in the municipal building, but to be here on the 100th anniversary of WNYC is very exciting for us. It's an honor and very humbling. But this, yeah, the City Reliquary, it's actually very appropriate that we're here just the day after 911 because in many ways our museum was really formed in those, those post 911 days. And we, we sought out to build a space that was both going to help people feel that civic pride that they have in New York City while also sort of preserving its history. Knowing that history is always in the making and constantly changing, we're there to sort of grab on.

[B]

Yeah, the first time I saw it, I was. I was telling you I was walking towards Chelsea Gardens and I was like, what is that?

[D]

What am I looking at? Tell me how you decided to start this exhibit, the tattoo exhibit.

[C]

Oh, sure. So, well, the tattoo exhibit came along because actually we're here with Michelle, who has been a friend of mine for a long time and been tattooing on me for even longer than the city reliquary has existed. And at the reliquary, we don't just have curators go out into the community and sort of pull out information and interpret it. We prefer to do a lot of collaborating. And so in this situation, it was the perfect collaboration to be able to work with Michelle and have her bring all of her knowledge of local tattoo history that has happened on the Bowery. She's really become one of the foremost experts on that. And so, yeah, we're going to focus.

[D]

On your expertise for a moment. Michelle, modern day tattooing began in the Bowery. What do we know about how that process came about? Why the Bowery? When did it start?

[A]

Well, the very first professional tattooer was on the Lower east side. And he was first listed as tattooing in the New York city directory in 1858.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

And, you know, he was a German immigrant, a sailor. And a little bit later, the very first electric tattoo machine was patented on the Bowery in 1891. And just if you were coming to New York City and you wanted to have a good time and get your drink on and, you know, the Bowery was the place to go, and it was the first working class entertainment district in New York City. And a lot of times the sailors, when they got to town, that would be their first step. You know, they would make a beeline for the Bowery. Naturally, the tattoo artists found their way there. And at one point, there were a lot of tattooers working along the Bowery. But the very first most important innovators were right in that couple blocks right there at Chatham Square.

[D]

How did it change the neighborhood once the tattoo artists became popular?

[A]

You mean more recently, like originally when they first started out, I don't know how much they changed the neighborhood. I mean, just the Bowery kind of had this seedy reputation, and I think tattooing kind of went along with that. Basically, when you think of tattoo shops, Back then, it's not tattoo shops like you imagine them today. Most of them, they were doing their business in the back of other businesses. Like, pretty much every barber shop along the Bowery would have a couple chairs for some tattooers in the back. And it just kind of reflected that overall working class, rowdy drinking vibe that was down there.

[B]

Let's take a call. They're already starting to come in. Peter is calling from the North Shore. Hi, Peter. Thanks for calling, all of it.

[E]

Hey, how are you doing?

[B]

Great.

[F]

So I just want to give a quick shout out to Big Joe and Son's tattoo in White Plains. Big Joe is no longer with us, but his son Adam still tattoos. He was my first tattoo, and now his son also tattoos. So we're already on three generations of American traditional tattooers, and I'm actually on my way to see the sun today.

[B]

All right, well, make sure you tell them about this segment. Let's talk to Craig on line three, calling from Morningside Heights. Hi, Craig.

[F]

Hi, good afternoon. First time caller. Thanks for having me.

[D]

Sure.

[F]

A few years ago, I finished the New York City Marathon, and to celebrate, I got a skyline of New York City wrapping around my calf. So I would never forget the accomplishment.

[B]

Love that. Thank you so much for calling in. Actually, Dave, you have a tattoo of the Statue of Liberty. Yes.

[C]

That's the most recent one that Michelle just did in honor of this exhibit on the forearm here. Yeah. This was inspired by the work of art that we have on the exhibition flyer, and it's from their collection and kind of right as you walk in the door to the exhibit. But I also have a lot of other tattoos that mark back to New York City history, including the General Slocum, Steamboat disaster and the Brooklyn Bridge.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

So, yeah, a lot of people didn't know that tattooing was illegal in New York City for a long time.

[D]

Right, Michelle?

[A]

Yeah, it was illegal from 1961 until 1997. And it's, you know, people are always surprised to hear that. They're like, oh, my gosh, it was illegal in New York City of all places. But I actually started tattooing in 1991. So I worked for six years underground before it was legalized. And in all that time, nobody was ever actually busted for tattooing in New York. So when I started out, nobody I knew actually even wanted it to be legal. So that's part of the reason why I think it was underground for so long. But when I heard it was gonna be legalized, that was when I opened up my shop, Daredevil. On Ludlow street with my business partner, Brad Fink.

[D]

Dave, what sort of early tattooing artifacts do you have as part of your exhibit?

[C]

Oh, well, this has been a really exciting show to pull together, because some of my favorite stuff that Michelle has been able to gather from some from their own collection, some from lenders from around the country, include the early acetates, which were the form that you would use as an engraved piece of plastic, basically. And you would then rub in some powdered. What is it?

[A]

Charcoal.

[C]

Charcoal, okay. I always think of it like graphite, kind of like. And then you basically are pressing that onto your skin, and then it leaves an impression of that image that then the tattoo artist would have to tattoo into your skin without erasing it by rubbing it off on their hands. So those are fun to see and very tactile. And some of the earliest pieces that are in the exhibit date back to when the tattoo is very new. So to think in terms of, like, wow, when the. Go ahead.

[A]

When the statue is very new.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, she's new in the harbor. And within, you know, the first 10, 20 years, people are already saying, hey, this is a significant icon that I want to align myself with and have it indelibly inked into my skin. So those are all really exciting to see.

[D]

Let's take another call. This is Doris calling us from the Lower east side. Hi, Doris. Thanks so much for calling.

[F]

Oh, you're very welcome.

[D]

And tell us your story.

[F]

I'm glad to be on.

[G]

Okay.

[F]

I was 38 years old, and I'm now over twice that age. And I went to a tattoo artist whose name I don't remember, and she asked me what I wanted. And I explained to her that I wanted a shooting star and planets. And she took my shoulder that had a small mole on it and made that all red, blue, and yellow. Different kinds of shooting star and different kinds of planets and sun and moon. And I went recently to a tattoo place here on the Lower east side, and I asked them to please sharpen it up. I said, it's very blurry. The colors are indistinct. And the guy looked at me, and he said, you, lady, are wearing an icon. He said, I wouldn't touch that. He said, if you want another sharp tattoo, you have another shoulder. And with that, I was escorted out.

[D]

Doris, thank you so much for your call. My guests are Dave Herman, founder and curator of the City Reliquary Museum and Civic Organization, and Michelle Miles, co curator and owner of Daredevil Tattoo Shop and Museum. We are talking about New York themed tattoos. If you have one, give us a call. 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. Dave, why do you think so many people have images of Lady Liberty?

[C]

Oh, well, I think, you know, the Statue of Liberty for us at the museum and for a lot of people is nice because she's sort of what we call a secular saint. So it has that same sort of religious iconography and the power of association that many people find in religion having that specificity. So it can relate in the same way to people of many different backgrounds. And so I think that gives her a broad appeal. But also, for getting a Statue of Liberty tattoo, you are becoming a part of history itself. Just like we said with this caller that we heard that, you know, once you get that on your skin, it is an artifact in itself, and you are now carrying that with you at all times, and you are preserving it in a certain way. So I always think of it that way, too. You kind of make yourself the artifact.

[B]

When you are doing a tattoo, Michelle, of the Statue of Liberty. What's hard about it? What's easy about it?

[A]

I mean, you really want to capture that face and make it nice. And probably just the easy part is having fun with it. It's such a fun design to work with. We're actually putting together a book right now of the show, and seeing all the images together on the page is a lot of fun when you see these different interpretations. And I guess also one of the hard things is getting the hands right, because you see a lot of the images in show, like, have some pretty funky hands going on.

[B]

During the course of the 20th century.

[D]

And into the 21st century, how would you describe the trends in tattoos?

[A]

I mean, it's changed, you know, just the way that it's exploded is pretty crazy. I mean, I've heard, you know, you used to get tattooed to be out. Now you get tattooed to be in. And I never thought when I started tattooing, you know, over 30 years ago, that it's like it would ever become, like, this completely mainstream thing, you know, and when I'm watching tv, it's like every company uses tattoos, like, on their models and stuff like that. And that's something that I can't believe. And, you know, to me, being a Lower east side tattooer, it's interesting that I feel like tattooing in the Lower east side and the Bowery have really grown up together, you know, because they both had these, like, disreputable backgrounds, and now both of them, you know, there's luxury hotels on the Bowery. And then tattooing is, you know, something that's totally mainstream.

[D]

Let's take a couple more calls. I believe it is Angela. Hi, Angela. Thanks for calling.

[H]

Hi.

[F]

Thanks for taking my call.

[H]

So I have two tattoos.

[F]

I don't have any of New York, but I'm going to be getting. I'm going to be getting one soon. I'm going to get two. One of the Oakland Bay Bridge and one of the Brooklyn Bridge, because I grew up in Oakland, but I've lived in Brooklyn for 20 years, so I'm. Yeah. So that's my next too.

[D]

Good luck with that. Let's talk to Amanda. Hi, Amanda, thanks for calling, all of it.

[H]

Hi, thanks for taking my call. So my first tattoo I got of an ice cream cone smushed on my foot, like, upside down, like it'd been dropped, because I've worked in ice cream my whole life, and I actually broke my foot at an ice cream shop while at work. I thought it'd be a fun way to commemorate the broken bone. So there's just a melting cone on my leg.

[D]

Oh, that's so funny. Thank you so much for calling in. I'm curious, how often do you have people tell you stories behind their tattoos when they come into the shop?

[A]

Pretty much always. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, some people, I think people that are big collectors, they might have less stories. It's more just like, oh, this looks really cool, and something, you know, grabs them. But if people don't have a lot of tattoos, there usually is a big story behind it.

[D]

When people come in and say, I want a Lady Liberty tattoo, what have they told you?

[C]

Well, you know, for me, you know, I think that there's always a nice aspect to associating the tattoo with a moment in time. And so that's how I've kind of related to it. The Statue of Liberty tattoo that I got related to this exhibit for us. But in other moments in my lifetime, I've tried to mark them with meaningful images and, you know, artwork. So that's. My background is as a visual artist also. So I kind of get to build my own story as I go through life.

[B]

What's your favorite Lady Liberty tattoo that's in the show?

[C]

Oh, for me, it's always hard to pick. You know, I get this question a lot. The favorite object of one sort or another. I really love the story behind the sheet of flash that Michelle actually found the template for so that they could become one. You have the artwork itself that's drawn out and then the stencil that's made so that it can be transferred onto the body. And through two friends of Michelle's, they're able to sort of match the same artwork together, even though they never knew that they had them. And so to see and to feel like our museum exhibit is a part of bringing these communities together in ways that we weren't even expecting, that's always a very special moment for us. So, yeah, that's definitely my favorite aspect.

[D]

What's your favorite?

[A]

He kind of took mine.

[C]

Oh, sorry.

[A]

I mean, I would say for me, maybe the best. My favorite part of the show was that it gave me this excuse to, like, go to different friends and see their collections in person. Something, you know, that it was a great excuse for that and to have these connections, these different pieces that are from, like, the 20s, 30s, that you see the different parts come together and, you know, in unexpected ways.

[D]

This is a text, not quite pizza rat, but our daughter is getting her first tattoo today, and it is a.

[B]

Local rodent, a mouse that took up.

[D]

Residence in our kitchen. My wife created a cartoon version of that mouse to make mice less scary for our kids, and it became her signature artwork, gracing birthday cards, holiday gifts, and household signage. Our daughter has been working with a tattoo artist to convert that cartoon mouse to a tattoo in memory of my wife, who died last fall, and the ink will hit her skin today.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. That is beautiful.

[D]

It's a beautiful segment. Hey, if you have a New York City tattoo, give us a call.

[B]

2124-3396-9221-2433.

[D]

WNYC. We'll take more of your calls. We'll have more with Dave Herman and Michelle Miles after the break. This is all of it.

[B]

This is all of it on W. Hi, I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are Dave Herman, the founder and curator of City Reliquary Museum and Civic Organization, and Michelle Miles, co curator and owner of Daredevil Tattoo Shop and Museum. We are talking about Liberty the Tattooed Lady. It's their exhibition. When we're talking about Lady Liberally, it seems like the crown is a really big focus for tattoo artists. What is the significance of her crown? Why is it so important to get right?

[A]

Actually, one thing that is interesting about the crown is that the rays that are such a signature part of it are not actually supposed to be the crown. That's actually supposed to be the reflected light off of her head.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

That's, like, an interesting Little detail, but I think it's just you can even kind of take away the lady and just have the crown and people will know what it is. And so I think it's just such an identifying thing, you know, to her.

[C]

As long as it has seven rays.

[B]

Oh, wait. Oh, wait. Tell me more.

[C]

I always notice, like, when you see people's depictions of the Statue of Liberty, to me, I'm a little bit of a stickler for details because she's supposed to have seven rays that represent the seven wonders of the world or the seven continents. And you often see people kind of using their memory or sort of their own idea of what the Statue of Liberty looks like. And it may have, you know, 10 or 20 different rays, which, as I see more and more of these artists interpretations, I start to grow to love that sort of vernacular interpretation. But when it comes down to it, on my arm, I want to make sure she's got seven rays.

[D]

We've got a question from Instagram. It says, please ask the guests. I was planning to get my first tattoo tomorrow and was just informed about allergies. I have a nickel allergy. Is black ink known to be bad?

[A]

You know, you really don't find many people that have trouble with the black ink. It's very, very, very rare.

[D]

Let's talk to Robin. Robin has a question as well. Thanks for calling in, Robin.

[H]

Sure. I've planned to have a tattoo since I was 9. I haven't gotten one yet because I'm pretty picky, but I had a question about logistics. I'm now 65 and so my skin is a lot looser since it was when I was nine. And I was wondering if there's any problems to tattooing older skin.

[A]

It's a little bit more tricky. I mean, a lot has to do with how much time you've spent in the sun. That probably more than anything else. But no, there's no problem tattooing older skin.

[D]

Are there any health considerations people should take into account when they're thinking like, oh, I might want to get a tattoo?

[A]

I think it's sort of the same common sense that you use when you're eating at a restaurant. You walk in, you look around and see a. If the place looks clean and is reputable and use good sense.

[D]

This is from. Who is this? Well, it doesn't say who this is from. Nina. It's from Nina. My next tattoo will be the Unisphere in Queens. It's my favorite NYC iconic image. Someone else has sent in a tattoo that you did. I Believe. All right. Number seven, it says, done by my favorite tattoo artist, Michelle Miles. I tried to move away from New York, and on one of my homesick visits, Michelle tattooed this on me. I go back for a few months later, it's Jill. Do you know it's the I. Oh, yeah, yeah. I love New York.

[A]

Yep.

[D]

When people are asking you to post pictures of. People are asking you on social media to post pictures of their Statue of Liberty tattoos, what are some themes and patterns you've seen from people?

[A]

I mean, I think. What I think is very interesting is that there's kind of, like, these three different reasons why people respond to the Statue of Liberty. I mean, some people because she really represents New York City, and then other people, she represents the country, and then other people, it's that she represents the idea of liberty. And so I think you have like, these kind of, like, different focuses that people have with it.

[D]

If people see a design in your museum show and they think, gosh, I'd really love to get that design, is it possible?

[A]

Oh, I've been doing a bunch of them lately.

[D]

Yeah. Have you seen that?

[C]

Yeah, they're looking good. It's nice to feel like, as a part of the exhibit, we actually opened it up to have more modern interpretations, Interpretations sent in. So if you came to the show and you said, oh, I've got a Statue of Liberty, we could take a picture and then post it into the exhibit itself. And so Michelle has already been calling me on occasion saying, okay, I got another one for the show.

[D]

My producer noticed that there seems to be sort of a fixation on indigenous designs in some of the designs. What do we know about why someone might want to include indigenous designs?

[C]

Yeah, well, I think for in today's society, a lot of people are able to express themselves and their connection to the indigenous cultures that they actually are connected to personally. But in history, that has happened as sort of a way that people have been sort of exploring other cultures and stuff. And a lot of times, we would refer to that as cultural appropriation. I think if we look at it in the terms of. Of art history, we notice that, like, for instance, in our display, we'll see that there's a specific time frame when this was very popular, around, you know, same time that we're seeing Statue of Liberties, we're seeing Indian headdresses and stuff. And that's very different from the type of indigenous tattooing that we would see today. Of course, we've learned a lot. You know, at that time, many people that lived on the east coast and were maybe from immigrant families, still didn't have an understanding of what immigrants, indigenous cultures were in the country. And that was the sort of the Wild west frontier and exoticized and romanticized in some ways. But I always said, it's funny that people would ask me myself. I actually came from a family of expatriate New Yorkers and grew up in Florida. So my love of New York came, you know, sort of as I grew up and became an adult, I really identified with my family's past, and I wanted to find a way to sort of reconnect to that. But I was asked once, I was a firefighter when I started this, the city reliquary as well. And so in the firehouse, you know, you get a lot of rubbing and, you know, sort of a, you know, prodding and joking around and stuff. And one of the questions that was asked to me is like, hey, how come you have all these New York City tattoos, but you're actually born in Florida? And touche. I was like, hey, that is very legit. But I'll also say that a lot of people will get, like, Chinese characters or tribal tattoos. They're not actually from those tribes or from, you know, the Chinese ancestry. And I was. The response was touche as he rolled up a sleeve and showed a Chinese character and said, I understand. Now there's ways that you sort of can identify with other cultures and appreciate that and hopefully doing it today in a respectful way and an acknowledgement that you're doing that from a position of privilege and admiration.

[B]

We've got an interesting call. Aisha Online 2 has a question for you as a tattoo artist. Hi, Aisha, thanks for calling in.

[G]

Hi, thank you for having me. I just wonder if, as a tattoo artist, do you take any responsibility sometimes for maybe someone who may come in to get a tattoo maybe under duress or, you know, sometimes you'll see, like, on the social media, some tattoo artists that will, you know, maybe tattoo a boyfriend's face on their face, you know, a picture of their face, and it doesn't feel like it's coming from an authentic place. And I just wonder if you ever say no to tattoos maybe that you feel aren't something that they necessarily want or really thought out.

[B]

Do you ever find yourself in the.

[D]

Position of saying, no?

[A]

Thankfully, no, we don't. I haven't really experienced anything like that for a really long time. And if we do get something that there is some sense of that, I would definitely ask the person, like, hey, are you sure? You want this? I will say, though, the opposite of that is that I've been able to help some human trafficking victims cover up tattoos and worked even with the FBI, you know, with some of people who have testified in cases against the people who trafficked them.

[D]

That's really interesting. Wow. Let's talk to Jess. Hi, Jess, calling in from Brooklyn.

[H]

Hi.

[F]

Long time.

[H]

First time.

[D]

Excellent.

[H]

I have two New York City tattoos. Twelve years ago, I got the Chrysler Building on the outside of my left calf. And then two years ago, I got the parachute jump from Coney island on my right leg.

[D]

What made you get them?

[H]

So I'm also a transplant. I grew up in Dallas, but this summer marked 20 years of living in New York City. The Chrysler Building was inspired by just one of those moments where the skyline just knocks you out. And it's my favorite building.

[D]

Thank you so much for calling in. This one is, I have a tattoo of a lily, which is a type of flower growing by my great grandmother's grave at Mount Olive Cemetery in Maspeth. I had four miscarriages, the first of which came shortly after September 11, and don't have anywhere to visit those losses. So her grave came to be that for me. It's not really a typical New York City tattoo, but that's what it is for me. That's from Anna in Brooklyn. Anna, thank you so much for sharing that. You know, you heard that at the top of the segment, the Pew Research center says that a third of Americans have tattoos. Why do you think it is? Why do you think so many people have tattoos?

[C]

I think that, you know, it has a lot to do with appreciation of art. You know, many people either come from artistic backgrounds or admire art, and they want to have some. Some of that for themselves and use it in a very personal way. And also, it's become much more accessible. Even in the. Since we've been talking about it becoming legalized, there are very high standards. When you walk into a tattoo shop, certainly like Daredevil, it's like walking into almost like, you know, a medical office. It's very high standards of sanitary conditions. And I think, you know, that that boosts people's confidence and makes them feel like, hey, I can do this too.

[B]

What are you noticing in terms of tattoo trends lately?

[A]

Oh, if I could ask what Dave said, it's like, for me, it's like, I feel like that there's so many ways that our bodies change and so many things that we aren't able to pick about our bodies. But then it's like Tattooing is this thing that you do choose. And, you know, I know for myself, like, as I get older and I'm not as cute as I used to be, it's like, I love my tattoos, you know, it's like it's the one thing that really expresses who I am, you know, and it kind of like, can even kind of compensate for what maybe you don't have on the outside of you. Like, when I was younger, it's like having these tattoos instead of just being like some young girl, it's like it made me feel tough, you know?

[B]

What are you noticing people want for tattoos lately?

[A]

I think these days, I mean, just there's more of a range of styles. People are experimenting with all these kind of different techniques that weren't really so much around before. But also what we really enjoy is that there's a real embrace of traditional tattooing, which is our favorite, you know, like having our museum and stuff. People come into our shop and check out the museum and they can actually get something off the walls and, you know, literally keep history alive, you know, through these tattoos.

[B]

Liberty the Tattooed lady is at the City Reliquary. Let me give the address. 370 Metropolitan Avenue in Brooklyn, New York. My guests have been Dave Herman and Michelle Miles. Thank you so for coming in and taking our listeners calls.

[C]

Thanks for having us, Allison. It's been an honor.

[E]

I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.