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- [00:09]
A
This is all of it. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in soho. Yes, I'm here. Darn it. Thanks for spending part of your election day with us. Hey, polls are open until 9pm in New York and 8pm in New Jersey. Happy voting. Watch your signatures, everybody. That's all I'm saying. Sign those iPads. Make sure your signatures match. I'll talk about it tomorrow. Over the next two hours, we will not talk about the mayors or the governor's race. We'll leave that until tomorrow morning. We'll do a wrap up with WNYC reporters Liz Kim and Karen Yee and open the phones to hear your reactions. Here's what's coming up on the show today. We'll talk about what makes a good breakup album with WNYC culture editor Matthew Schnipper. Author Mega Mohamdar joins us to talk about her new novel A Guardian and a Thief. And vocalist and guitarist Hannah Francis will perform some music live in our studio from her new album titled Nestled in Tangles. That's the plan. So let's get this started with a conversation about public benches. One of the staples of life in New York is the public bench. Whether you're feeding the pigeons, people watching, catching up with a friend, or these days, scrolling through your phones, you can still sit on benches in Central park whose design dates back as far as the 1870s. But New York's vision for public benches and public space has changed over time. If you haven't noticed, the MTA has introduced new leaning benches in certain subway stations. The city announced last week that it will install benches at every bus stop by the year of 2035. But with armrests that can make it difficult to lay down. And in newly constructed public spaces like Moynihan Train hall, benches for travelers are not really available. Critics call this hostile architecture designed to discourage certain behaviors or populations seen as unwelcome. Anna Kaday is a reporter for the New York Times. She's written a new article called the Slow Death of the New York City Public Bench. It's part history, part design analysis. Anna is with me now. Welcome back to the show. Hi.
- [02:42]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [02:42]
A
I'm really happy to have you. As a reporter and as someone who lives in the city, what role have public benches played in the life and in the culture of New York City throughout history?
- [02:56]
B
I think so much of life plays out on benches. It's there. Anything can happen on a bench. You know, you can sit, you can read, you can just look at People go by, you can eat a meal. And that's kind of the beauty of them, that there's this shared, open kind of space.
- [03:15]
A
How can public benches represent the way a city values its public space?
- [03:21]
B
Over the decades, there have been a number of changes that have been made to bench designs. We start to see the introduction of armrests, and then we see the seats getting narrower. And now we're at a point where you can't even sit on some of the benches when we're talking about the leaning benches. And we see this, as I would say, how officials see this as a way to kind of control what can take place on a bench. These benches don't really allow for people to lay down or spend long periods of time on them anymore.
- [03:57]
A
It's interesting when you think about it. How do you think about taking moments to sit and watch the city unfold in front of you, alter your perception of the city?
- [04:12]
B
I think like it. I'm sorry, could you, could you ask it again?
- [04:16]
A
How do you think taking time to sit and watch a city in front of us alters our perception of the city as opposed to just go, go, go.
- [04:24]
B
Right? I mean, they create little moments of respite on a busy day, and it allows you to just participate in a different way. And especially when we're moving so fast, we forget to really look around and take in our surroundings. And that small pause when you just sit down to take a phone call, you see the scene unfolding in front of you and you might be sharing that bench with another person and you feel like you're living in the city together.
- [04:54]
A
Listeners, take a moment to think about this question. Where is your favorite bench to sit in the city and why? Call or text us at 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. What's a bench that keeps you coming back? Maybe it's in your neighborhood or in a park or by the water. What memories do you associate with a bench? What are your favorite bent sitting activities? Reading, doing the crossword? Do you have favorite INSCRI on a bench? Give us a call, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. So we just asked our listeners that question, Anna. So I'm going to ask you what's your favorite bench and why?
- [05:41]
B
It's this bench in Washington Square park that I remember doing a really busy period of my life. A couple years back. After work, I would just grab like a takeout meal from somewhere around the park and sit on that bench and eat. And sometimes I'd have a friend with me, sometimes I was alone, but I'd always just feel at peace in that moment. I wouldn't be looking at my phone. And it was just a lovely little break at the end of the day.
- [06:10]
A
All right, we're going to ask you to put your reporter's hat on now. We're going to go into the history of benches. What did you learn in your reporting about the oldest public benches in New York City? What did they look like? Where were they?
- [06:26]
B
It's hard to say if these were the very first benches in the city, but Central park is a great place to start because that is one of the biggest early investments in public space from the city. And in the 1870s, they introduced this cast iron bench called the Central park settee, and it's still there in the park today. And it did not initially have armrests. Now a lot of versions of the city do have armrests.
- [06:56]
A
How many of these old benches are still around?
- [07:00]
B
Oh, they're all over. I don't know exactly how many, but they're in Central Park. They're in other parks and in other places around the city now, too.
- [07:09]
A
It's funny you keep mentioning that the armrests were put in and this was the result of Robert Moses. No surprise. What were the circumstances that contributed to these new benches with these armrests being created?
- [07:25]
B
Yeah. By the time Moses comes into the picture in this story, the country had entered the Great Depression. A lot of people had become homeless, and more people are sleeping in benches. More people are sleeping in benches, on benches, specifically in Central park as well. And he had designed, with another furniture maker, a bench for the 1939 World's Fair. And they, the two of them, made 8,000 of these benches. And the one feature that really stands out about them is that they have these huge hooped armrests that would really deter someone from trying to lay down on it.
- [08:07]
A
Let's take a couple calls. Let's talk to Sarah in Manhattan. Sarah, thank you so much for making the time to call, all of it. We want to hear about your favorite bench.
- [08:18]
C
My favorite bench is right across where I live, 107 street and 5th Avenue. It's right near the actual Harlem Mirror. And actually the Conservatory Gardens is right on 105th and 106th Street. It's just beautiful. Just sitting there reminds me of my mom. We always used to sit there, and it just gives me so much memories just to sit there and just relax and Benches are really, really important just to sit down. You can look at the scene, everyone coming to the park, enjoying the park, kids playing on their bikes. It's just something that you really, really enjoy. And some of the benches actually have been taken away on Fifth Avenue because I think of the homeless people like laying on them. But this bench particularly is really, really. It's still there. And there's like a couple of them that are still there. Post it. And benches do have a lot of memories for everyone.
- [09:19]
A
Thank you so much for calling in. This text says Allison. Didn't Marisa Tomei punch out two timing George Costanza on a New York City park bench? Also go to Cheryl, who's calling in from soho. Hey, Cheryl, thanks for calling all of it.
- [09:35]
C
Hi, how. I'm such a fan of your show. I. Where do I start? I'm a Senior, I'm goosing 80, and I need to sit. And when there isn't a bench, unfortunately, as ungraceful as it sounds, I wind up looking for those Siamese. What are they called? They're off the sides of buildings. Fire hydrant thingies. I need a place to perch because I don't have the endurance. I need to sit. And when there is a bench, it's absolutely a godsend. And it just seems cruel to me not to have benches. Pregnant ladies need benches. I mean, reality, you know, it's true.
- [10:27]
A
It's very, very true. Thank you for calling in. By the way, I'm speaking with Anna Cadet, reporter for the New York Times. She recently wrote an article called the Slow Death of the New York City Public Bench. We're talking about public benches in New York, and we are hearing from you. What's your favorite place to sit in the city and why? What about a bench? Keeps you coming back. Do you have a favorite association with a bench? Our number is 212433 WNYC 212433. Okay, Anna, we have reached the leaning benches. We've been talking, talking about them a lot. I think that's a contradiction in terms, in my humble opinion. Tell us, what do they look like and when do they first arrive?
- [11:13]
B
They look like these black metal bars, I think would be the best way to describe them. They don't look like a traditional bench at all. I had actually first noticed them earlier this year, but didn't realize that they were supposed to be benches. The subway stop that the MTA rolled them out at, West 4th street, they. I use that subway stop all the time, but in my mind, I never was like oh, there's a new kind of bench here because it just looks so foreign. But these actually have been around the city for several years in this subway station. They put them in this year, and it does save space in the subway, but it is an object that not many people seem to know how to interact with. I saw a lot of people when I was reporting lean on the backsides of them or just go up to them cautiously.
- [12:07]
A
Critics of the leaning bench, or the leaning stations, as I call them, they describe them as hostile architecture. What does that mean in terms of practice?
- [12:18]
B
Hospital architecture refers to design that is meant to keep out unwanted populations, usually homeless people, from public spaces. That can be anything from a leaning bench, a bench with armrests, a no sitting sign, or spikes on ledges.
- [12:40]
A
What are some other example of hostile architecture in the city aside from the leaning benches?
- [12:47]
B
I mean, I think we see those kinds of examples. I just mentioned, like, no sitting signs. And then a lot of ledges on buildings and like, kind of like planters will have just spikes. And then I think a general lack of seating would classify as hostile architecture, too. When you think about Moynihan, when there's not even a chair or bench in sight.
- [13:14]
A
The most obvious target of hostile architecture is the homeless and the houseless population. But you write in your piece that it really affects everyone. How so?
- [13:25]
B
Well, it makes it so that no one has a place to sit comfortably. Obviously, these designs are targeting a specific population. But then you have, you know, pregnant women who aren't able to sit down. You have older people with back pain who aren't able to sit down. You have anyone. And pretty much everyone is losing from this.
- [13:50]
A
Let's take some more calls. Marilyn is calling in from Chelsea. Hi, Marilyn, thanks for taking the time to call. All of it. You are on the air.
- [14:00]
C
Hi, Alison. Thanks for taking my call. Listening to what was said about hostile architecture, I think my bench is the opposite. Friendly architecture is on the High Line. There's a row of lounge chairs that you can sit on by yourself. If you want, you can push it aside, but if you want to sit with others, you can push them together with other lounge chairs. They all have wheels that use the actual rails of the High Line. And it is fantastic to be sitting there. You have the breeze of the Hudson river, the Statue of Liberty in the distance. It's excellent, people watching. I love going there after sports, eating a salad, making phone calls. So I highly recommend that those benches on the High Line.
- [14:58]
A
Thank you so much for calling. This text reads one of my old friends met her husband on a bench on the Brooklyn Bridge. Another text. This senior citizen enjoys the benches along Pelham Parkway in the Bronx, watching people, kids, birds and squirrels, and especially how the trees change season to season. It would be a shame to eliminate places where we seniors can sit. Let's talk to Charles on the Upper west side. Hi, Charles. Thank you for making the time to call all of it. You're on the air.
- [15:28]
C
Thank you for doing the show and having the guest. I wanted to say that Red Hook I spent a lot of time in as an artist, and a friend of mine has a Hudson Waterfront Museum there. And there are benches in that little sort of park area that face the Statue of Liberty. And you can watch the Staten island ferries go by and watch the sunset. And I think there's a group that meets there weekly or something to watch the sun go down every day. But it's really quite unique. Good spot to see everything and rest.
- [15:57]
A
Thank you so much for calling. Let's talk to Heather in Manhattan. Hi, Heather. Thank you so much for calling all of it.
- [16:05]
C
Hi, Alison. I've called him before but never identified myself completely. But I'm Heather Randall and I'm the widow of Tony Randall. And we had a really beautiful marriage and he was much older than me, and we lived in The Beresford on 81st and Central Park West. And on beautiful days, we would take our lunch and go sit on the benches in the Shakespeare Garden right behind the Delacorte. And when our children got a little older, we would take them with us and they would run around in that little area and we read the quotes and look at the beautiful flowers. And I think to this day it's really hard for me to even walk through there. It was such a beautiful memory. And I want to add one other thing for fans of the Odd Couple. You may remember famously Tony and Jack sitting on the bench at Grand Army Plaza, and Jack throws his garbage on the ground and Tony makes him pick it up. So there are many great memories of Tony Randall and benches in New York City.
- [17:06]
A
Heather, thank you so much for calling in and sharing your story. We really appreciate it. I'm speaking with Anna Cadet, reporter for the New York Times. She wrote the recent piece the Slow Death of the New York City Public Bench. Anna, first of all, what did you think of our callers? Anything stand out to you?
- [17:26]
B
I mean, so many just sweet stories. And I love the term friendly architecture.
- [17:32]
A
Do you know how New York compares to other cities in terms of benches? I don't know if you know this or not, but did you have any sense of a sense of it when you were reporting the story?
- [17:42]
B
I really focused on New York in this story. I did hear from readers from around the country. I think some people noticed similar trends in their own cities and towns that they lived in. But I will say, like New York is also pretty unique in its public spaces. So just some of this I think is specific to city life.
- [18:06]
A
Let's talk to Adam in Westchester County. Hi, Adam, thanks for calling all of it. You're on the air.
- [18:13]
C
Hi. I used to be an actor in a lifetime a long time ago, and I filmed a Mars bar commercial on a bench in Riverside Park. And for two days in the middle of January, we had to pretend it was early autumn. And I was shivering so much sitting next to this, training this trained dog. But the view was so beautiful of the river that I just kept meditating and quieting my body looking at the water. And it's an amazing thing to be able to look at nature and calm ourselves down. For a city that wants to learn how to get along better with each other, the more opportunities we have to sit and look at nature together, the better.
- [18:55]
A
Great point. Thank you so much for calling. This text says, my favorite bench is in Tompkins Square park near 8th and B. Whenever I pass it, I remember the many Sunday mornings my late husband and I would buy coffee and plain rolls and sit talking for hours about who knows what, feeding birds with little bread pellets and people watching. I haven't sat on it since he died. This also says hello, all of it. My favorite bench is in Fort Greene park where someone inscribed the dedication plaque with a quote from Dee Boone of the band Minutemen. Punk is whatever we made it to be. And this one says the best bench in front of the Hare Krishna tree in the East Village. Anna, as we're talking about benches, based on your reporting, what did you imagine to be the future of New York benches? After talking to the people, after talking to the mta, after talk to City Hall.
- [19:53]
B
I think talking to New Yorkers around the city, people have a strong love for benches. And we heard this from the people calling in just now, too. It's hard to imagine New York without benches, but the trend at the moment seems to be that they are either disappearing or that there are coming. They're coming in unrecognizable forms. So it's hard to see what will happen. I think it depends on a lot of other things, too, like policy, who's in office, what kind of public Spaces the city wants to invest in. But right now, the trend is that they're fading a bit.
- [20:35]
A
It's interesting. I think about benches and I think about COVID It was a time when you could be outside, you could be six feet away from your friend. I spent my birthday on. On a bench six feet away. Each of us had a glass of champagne from six feet away. And I have that really strong memory in my mind of a New York City bench.
- [20:55]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's. It was definitely a moment for them during COVID too. It makes me think about the stoop during that time as well.
- [21:03]
A
Let's talk to Barbara in Brooklyn. Hi, Barbara, thanks for calling, all of it.
- [21:09]
C
Thank you so much for taking my call. I agree with what you're all saying. I think benches are a sign actually of a civil society with many benefits for everyone. But unfortunately, I've come across a deplorable situation in Brooklyn. After my bus stops were permanently removed, I used a further bus stop where at least I could sit and wait 15, 20 minutes for a bus. And two weeks ago, the bench was completely taken away. For what reason, I do not know. All around I've been trying to find out. There are no people who sleep on the bench. It was completely free for people waiting for the bus.
- [21:53]
A
So.
- [21:56]
C
I feel this is an outrageous act and I miss the bench terribly. Like many of your callers, I'm in my 80s and need to sit.
- [22:05]
A
Thank you so much for calling. Do you have any information on why bus stop benches might be removed? Anna?
- [22:14]
B
I don't, but I'm assuming it's kind of similar reasons of what we've been talking about. I did notice too, this didn't make it into my story that some bus dots had leaning benches as well.
- [22:27]
A
And let's talk to Matt on Roosevelt Island. Hi Matt, thanks for calling, all of it.
- [22:34]
C
Good afternoon.
- [22:36]
A
Good afternoon.
- [22:38]
C
Tell you about our benches. Rose Hill island is a skinny little island in the middle of the east river. We are two miles long, 800ft wide at its widest, and we are covered with benches facing the east and west promenades on the river. My favorite is one on the west promenade facing the river in front of our school, PSIS217. And I like to sit there in the afternoon with a book or magazine and watch the river traffic go by. And when a tourist boat goes by, I wave at them and I yell at them and say, spend money.
- [23:15]
A
Thanks for calling. I wanted to ask you, Adam, did we cover up every cover all aspects of benches in New York?
- [23:26]
B
I think So I think the one other thing I would add is that when we think about benches, we're also thinking about our relationship with public space. When we're removing benches and when we're making them, these objects that are not very comfortable, these spaces shift into liminal, transitory spaces, whether that's Fifth Avenue or a bus stop or a train stop, they're no longer social places. They become just another place to pass through and get onto the next thing.
- [24:04]
A
We have been talking about public benches in New York. Thanks to everyone who called and texted. We couldn't get to everyone, but we really appreciate your contributions. And thanks to Anna Koday, reporter for the New York Times. Thanks, Anna.
- [24:18]
B
Thank you.
- [24:19]
A
I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.