D (3:38)

Dr. Kumar, let's bring you into the conversation. How much protein does a body actually need?

A (3:45)

So, great question and probably to a certain degree varies through life stage. The general guidelines, guidelines have always recommended 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. Current people speaking about health and wellness will say that recommendation is perhaps too low and that many active adults would benefit from more around 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight. So an example would mean a 150 pound person might aim for 75 to 100 grams per day. Day bodybuilders may, may aim for higher. But generally speaking, those are the guidelines and recommendations.

D (4:34)

What happens to the body when you've consumed too much protein?

A (4:40)

So protein is a type of fuel for the body. Protein, we consider it really like building blocks, like Legos. What protein does in the body is that it builds things. It builds cell membranes, it builds enzymes, hormones. We're taught in high school, middle school biology that proteins are made up of the building blocks of life. If you consume too much of it and there's more material than you need, these things potentially can impact kidney health. Cause gout, which, you know, people consider a medical condition of excess consumption. Yes, there are other reasons someone may get gout. But if we think of medical conditions associated with high protein consumption, we think of kidney disease and we think of gout, which is a joint disease.

D (5:39)

Alice, we named all those chains Dunkin Donuts, Subway, Chipotle. They've embraced this trend on their menus. How helpful are these menu options for the everyday consumer hoping to make a more responsible decision around mealtime? We're in New York, we can, well, you're in Oregon right now, but around New York you can get food all over the place. When I travel across the country as a reporter, you get to some place and it would be fast Food, Fast food. Fast food. I'm wondering if it's helping people make more responsible choices.

C (6:13)

I can tell you what I hear from all of the many researchers and scientists and dietitians that I speak with as a journalist. Actually, every time I talk to them about protein, someone says, keep your protein out of my coffee. I can't believe everyone's. They're always like, let me tell you the product I just saw. Protein. This is a new protein fortified cereal, or waffles or donuts. None of these foods are like healthful, everyday kinds of foods that you want to be making up the predominant part of your diet. And I'm not sure that we can even say that adding protein to a food that is otherwise really high in sugar or fat is really going to improve its nutritional quality. It's definitely a good selling point. That doesn't mean it's better for you. You know, your best bet is really to get your protein from whole foods. And the reason for that is that those foods are also packed with all of these other essential nutrients that you need. And you know, we do tend to, like, as humans, get a little bit myopic about nutrition sometimes. So if protein is the hot nutrient people are looking for protein, they're attracted by the high protein label. They're thinking about how many grams of protein they're getting per day, which is not, you know, it's not a bad thing to consider. But if all you're doing is counting protein grams, then those products look really good. But if you're thinking more broadly about what a healthy diet is, you know, it needs to include all of these food groups and, you know, foods like plant based proteins like lentils and beans, which also give you all this wonderful fiber and vitamins and minerals and, you know, dairy products which give you calcium and vitamin D, and lean meats which offer iron and zinc. You have all of these amazing nutrients are packed into foods. And when you start getting into these highly processed foods, they may have added protein, but you're probably missing out on a lot of other things.

B (8:15)

Dr. Kumar, we have a question here and maybe you can answer it. When you take medicine for Parkinson's, you're not supposed to eat protein an hour before or after. Can they discuss that? What are the alternatives? Why is this a bad mix with the Mets?

A (8:32)

So it has to do with how these medicines are metabolized and the enzymes that metabolize Parkinson's, medicines that can create a reaction in the body that's dangerous. It doesn't mean that patients with Parkinson's shouldn't eat protein ever. It's just in combination with the medicine. High protein, close to the timing of the medicine isn't recommended.

B (8:55)

Let's talk to Daniel who's calling in from Brooklyn. Hi Daniel, thanks for making the time to call all of it. What's your question?

E (9:02)

Hi, I was just wondering if always wondered, kind of like with the billion dollar industry behind protein powders and such, is there any actual evidence that powders like this are actually utilized by the body effectively or as well as naturally eating meat, dairy, non animal type of proteins, anything like that? Because just always wondered, powdered forms, are these really, you know, effective or, you know, efficient for the body?

B (9:35)

Dr. Kumar, do you want to answer that?

A (9:38)

Yeah, sure. So most of the protein powders are either whey protein, some of the plant based or pea protein. I mean we do absorb these in our guts and our intestines in a reasonable way. So if somebody is not getting enough protein protein through their diet, supplemental powders are a way to get it. The benefits of getting proteins from whole foods is that you're getting all of the other nutrients that Alice mentioned. So when you're eating eggs, Greek yogurt, beans, fish, tofu, nuts, there's so many other benefits in the whole foods along with the protein versus sort of isolating it out. But you do absorb the powders.

B (10:23)

After the break, we're going to talk about the new dietary guidelines with my guest, New York Times health reporter Alice Callahan, and Dr. Rebecca Kumar. If you want to get a call in, if you want to join the conversation, our numbers 2124-3396-9221-2433. WNYC. You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. Protein foods are on shelves in grocery stores across America. We're talking about it. I'm here with New York Times health reporter Alice Callahan and Dr. Rekha Kumar from Weill Cornell Medical to talk about this trend and how much your body actually needs Alice. A few weeks ago, the US Health Secretary released new dietary guidelines which suggests that adults consume 1.2 to 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, which is far more than what some health officials have previously recommended. What sources of protein does this administration? What is it emphasizing?

C (11:34)

Well, it's really interesting, these new guidelines. There's the text of the guidelines, which of course I study very closely. And then there's also this new food pyramid that Secretary Kennedy unveiled with the guidelines. And that's the visual that I think most Americans are probably going to see and that we'll probably, we'll be seeing in school classrooms and military cafeterias and other kind of government information about diet. So the food pyramid is very striking because it puts animal source proteins right at the top. Especially there's a big ribeye steak and a carton of whole milk and a huge hunk of cheese and a roasted turkey or chicken. And so that message feels very clear in the, in the food pyramid. The written guidelines are a little bit more like, you know, they describe animal source proteins and plant source proteins like beans, lentils, nuts, seeds, whole grains are a pretty good source of protein. So yeah, I think the pyramid for a lot of experts are kind of puzzled by this pyramid because when you look at the way Americans eat now, like I've never had a nutrition expert say, wow, I just wish Americans would eat more meat. We just don't get enough animal source protein. Americans are known around the world for being pretty heavy meat consumers. What we could really benefit from is more plant source proteins. Probably when you look at data on large populations of people that are followed over decades, people who consume more plant sourced proteins, this is the beans, peas, lentils, nuts, seeds, tend to have lower rates of type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, colorectal cancer. These foods are really protective. So there's a little bit of disappointment that those protein sources were not promoted more in the new guidelines.

D (13:31)

Dr. Kumar, I want to read this text to you. It says, I'm a private chef in Monmouth County. A lot of my clients are looking for more protein due to the current trends. I believe in a balanced diet with fiber and think too much protein could be bad for your cardiovascular system. This has been echoed by the American Heart Association. Why is this the new dietary guidelines or why is more meat, animal meat, a bad thing at this point?

A (14:04)

Yeah. So like Alice said, the visual of the new food pyramid can maybe be a bit simplified because it looks like on the pictures that the more animal protein, the better. I would actually reflect back on MyPlate, which we did use more recently than the old food pyramid. And MyPlate really shows us that balance matters and that fiber from fruits and vegetables matter. Whole grains and healthy fats. Protein is essential, but it's not meant to replace everything, especially animal protein. So I agree with you that when we are thinking of cardiometabolic health, the reason excessive amounts of animal protein may be a concern is that animal protein often comes with saturated fat.

D (14:54)

Let's talk about some specifics. Some people online have adopted high protein diets to lose weight. Dr. Kumar is this an accurate, is this accurate?

A (15:08)

So replacing carbohydrates or processed carbohydrates for protein can be an effective weight loss strategy, but we shouldn't be replacing our carbohydrates all with animal protein. If you look at people who replace their carbs with animal protein or plant protein, you really only see the mortality benefit when those carbs are replaced by plant protein. And so yes, there are reasons that increasing your protein may help on a weight loss journey. You can feel full for longer, you can keep more muscle mass on, and protein does support metabolism because muscle burns more calories than fat does. So there are reasons that increasing your protein can help on a weight loss journey, but that doesn't mean that the bulk of, of our diet should be animal protein.

D (16:08)

Yeah, Alice, I feel like we've heard this before, like the Atkins diet and the Zone Zone diet. What's different this time?

C (16:19)

I mean, some of the experts that I speak to say, you know, maybe this is just the, the next trend. And just like we've been through previous diet trends, you know, we've survived the low fat era, we've seen low carb diets get really hot and they're still popular, you know, but, but a super high protein diet, I think we do tend to kind of see our cultural interest in diets kind of go to the extreme. And then we see over time some self correction where we, we get more data or we have more people speaking out about the evidence we already have. And we kind of realize like, okay, this concept of balance, even though it's kind of boring and it's not sexy and it doesn't like, go viral on social media, people are really looking for advice that's more prescriptive or feels different or feels like something they haven't heard before. This concept of balance, I think we kind of come back to it over and over again. It is what the evidence supports. Protein is important, of course, and it can be, it can have some benefits to prioritize protein a little bit like Dr. Kumar said, but we don't have to go overboard and there's, there are diminishing returns. Like once you kind of get past that range that Dr. Kumar gave 1.2 to 1.6, you know, you might see some benefits in that range, but above that, we have very little evidence that you'll see additional benefit. You're just going to burn that protein like any other kind of calorie and use it for energy or store it as fat.

B (17:54)

Let's take a couple more calls, Alex. Is calling from Hell's Kitchen. Hi, Alex, thank you so much for calling.

E (18:01)

Yeah, thank you so much for having the show today. I'm really glad to connect with the two speakers. I'm wondering, given that most Americans are already meeting their protein needs while under consuming fiber, for example, that a lot of these protein added products as we're discussing are still ultra processed. How do you guys think that the long term public health will change? Are we going to look back in a few years and see this as an industry that's really capitalizing on a nutritional trend at the moment, or do you think maybe 10 years down the line will reflect and perhaps see negative outcomes by this industry push at the moment?

B (18:44)

Dr. Kumar, what do you think?

A (18:47)

I think these are excellent things to address because social media and fitness trends are huge right now and people are focused on strength, aging well and weight loss. And obviously people are capitalizing on these interests. If this is going to lead to people consuming more processed ingredients, I do think we're going to look back and probably not feel so great about this. If there are people getting the message that optimizing protein intake and making sure we're consuming enough protein as we age, in addition to doing strength training and seeing protein as an essential nutrient as we get older. I know that, you know, for me, when we're in training as doctors, we learn about the tea and toast diet in elderly patients as they age and they live alone, that they really don't consume protein and they develop sarcopenia or muscle loss. So I do think that there are benefits in raising the importance of protein. But if we're getting this through, you know, protein cookies and protein popcorn, I don't think we're going to look back on this in a good way.

D (19:54)

Alice, you've done some reporting on the link between protein and menopause after a reader asked a question about the various claims online from your reporting. How valid are those claims that you need more protein when you're going through perimenopause or menopause?

C (20:11)

Yeah, well, so Dr. Kumar is really an expert in this area too, so she may want to weigh in. But I mean, I think certainly, like, our bodies are changing in menopause and I think we do need to be aware of, like, are we feeding ourselves well to keep our muscles strong and our bones strong? As we age, we have these hormonal shifts that are happening. And, you know, I'm not sure that there's. There's not great evidence that there's something super special about the menopause. Transition that, you know, means that you really need to pile on the protein. But when you look at how women in America eat, older women do tend to under consume protein a bit like it's a little bit more common among that demographic. And so I do think it's good that we're getting a little bit more emphasis on that. Make sure that you're feeding yourself with enough protein. Protein, again, it doesn't have to be crazy amounts, but you're getting enough and you're doing the strength training that will help keep your muscle strong and your bones strong as you age.

D (21:15)

Dr. Kumar, would you like to answer?

A (21:17)

Sure. So just a couple of the scientific facts around menopause. So as estrogen levels drop, it is harder to maintain muscle mass and fat storage increases, especially around the belly, and bone density decreases. So upping your protein slightly can help support maintenance of muscle, helping protect your bones, balance your blood sugar, and it may help women feel full for longer. Where there are some changes in hunger cues around perimenopause and menopause because of how carbohydrate metabolism changes. So slightly upping protein to increase fullness and be able to manage your carbohydrate intake during a stage of life where you're predisposed to increase belly fat can be beneficial.

D (22:07)

Let's try to get one more call in here. Ralph is calling from Manhattan. Ralph, thank you so much for taking the time to call.

A (22:14)

All of it.

E (22:16)

Oh, that's great. Thanks so much for putting this on. I'm wondering about the discussion of meat versus fish. I've stopped eating meat pretty much across the board and stuck with chicken and fish and nuts and plants and arugula and leafy things. But what's the truth about how much meat someone should eat in order to get protein versus overeating it a couple of times a week and possibly being carcinogenic?

B (22:58)

Yeah.

D (23:00)

Dr. Kumar, what are your thoughts?

A (23:02)

So I think the way this gentleman has modified his diet is excellent. And the way he's eating with lean protein, fish, lots of plants, this is ideal. You don't have to to eat red meat in order to get enough protein so you can get everything you need from this pattern of eating that was just described. If somebody wanted to incorporate red meat, I think we would still say to be mindful and limit the intake because of fat content.

D (23:37)

Is. Alice, before we go, is there anything that you would like debunked about protein that you've read that's come across through your inbox?

C (23:47)

Oh, gosh. I mean, I think just the whole concept that more is better. I mean, I think this, that is what's fueling the, the explosion of protein fortified processed foods. You know, I just think we need to, we can, we can dial it back a little bit, make sure you're getting enough, but there's really no reason to go overboard. And if you go overboard, you'll probably be missing out on some other really important components of your D that your body needs.

D (24:18)

Dr. Kumar, anything that you would like to debunk or you would like to leave us with?

A (24:22)

Yeah, I kind of want to just reiterate what Alice said about our tendency to become myopic about these things. When I think of health overall and nutrition, we have to look at the big picture of the foundational behaviors. So in general, if your exercise, nutrition, sleep and stress management aren't great and you're like, I'm going to just eat a lot of protein, that's probably not going to help you. So we have to see where this fits into the overall lifestyle and optimization of health.

D (24:52)

So kind of keep your protein out of my coffee and go to the gym.

A (24:58)

Works for me.

B (24:59)

Works for you.

D (25:00)

My guests have been New York Times health reporter Alice Callahan and Dr. Rekha Kumar. Thank you so much to both of you for your insight. We really appreciate it.

C (25:11)

Thanks for having me. This was fun.

A (25:13)

Thank you. So fun.

D (25:14)

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