Why We're Drawn to Conspiracy Theories

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It – "Why We're Drawn to Conspiracy Theories"

Podcast Information:

• Title: All Of It
• Host/Author: WNYC, hosted by Alison Stewart
• Episode: Why We're Drawn to Conspiracy Theories
• Release Date: May 30, 2025

Overview: In this insightful episode of All Of It, host David Fuerst delves into the psychological underpinnings of why individuals are attracted to conspiracy theories. Featuring a comprehensive interview with Dhoni O' Sullivan, CNN senior correspondent and host of the podcast Persuadable, the discussion explores the intersection of media literacy, identity, community, and mental health in the context of belief in unfounded theories.

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1. The Rise of Conspiracy Theories in the Digital Age

[00:09 - 01:08]

David Fuerst opens the episode by highlighting the vast accessibility of information on the internet, which, while beneficial, also facilitates the spread of misinformation. Fuerst introduces the topic by referencing the absurdity of "lizard people" and underscores the danger of becoming ensnared in "wild rabbit holes" of conspiracy beliefs. He sets the stage for the conversation by introducing Dhoni O' Sullivan, who brings expertise from his work on the CNN podcast Persuadable.

2. Understanding Persuadable: The Human Side of Belief

[01:08 - 03:20]

Dhoni O' Sullivan elaborates on the mission behind Persuadable. He emphasizes that the podcast aims to uncover the human emotions and reasons that lead individuals to embrace seemingly irrational beliefs. O' Sullivan states:

"What I really wanted to do with this podcast, Persuadable was just really try and get at the human emotion, the human reasons that we all can believe crazy stuff."
— Dhoni O' Sullivan [02:28]

He points out that conspiracy theories often provide meaning and a sense of community to believers, which are powerful motivators beyond mere information consumption.

3. Personal Connections and Empathy in Understanding Belief

[03:20 - 08:07]

Fuerst brings a personal dimension to the discussion by addressing O' Sullivan's willingness to share his own mental health struggles, including anxiety, depression, and OCD. This vulnerability helps bridge empathy between the journalist and the subjects of his studies. O' Sullivan explains:

"I spent a lot of time with them, and I spent more importantly, a lot of time with their families who had been left behind. And what I found overwhelmingly is the people who were there... have families, they have kids, they have jobs."
— Dhoni O' Sullivan [04:45]

He discusses the JFK assassination conspiracy as a case study, revealing that many believers are otherwise productive members of society who turn to conspiracy theories as a coping mechanism during times of trauma or anxiety.

4. The Psychological Motivations Behind Belief

[08:07 - 13:56]

The conversation shifts to the psychological factors that make individuals susceptible to conspiracy theories. O' Sullivan highlights the role of emotions over facts in shaping beliefs:

"Facts, feelings convince people more than facts do."
— Dhoni O' Sullivan [08:57]

He elaborates on the human tendency to seek patterns and explanations, especially in chaotic or traumatic situations, such as the COVID-19 pandemic. This search for meaning can lead to the acceptance of elaborate conspiracies as a way to make sense of randomness.

5. Bridging the Gap: Empathy Over Judgment

[10:50 - 13:56]

O' Sullivan shares his experiences conversing with individuals who hold strong conspiracy beliefs, particularly among Trump supporters who distrust mainstream media like CNN. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the underlying needs these beliefs fulfill rather than dismissing them outright:

"Let's try and understand why. Why do people engage in this sort of thinking?"
— Dhoni O' Sullivan [11:56]

He acknowledges the challenge of empathizing with those who propagate harmful ideologies but asserts that understanding the human vulnerabilities that lead to such beliefs is crucial for meaningful dialogue and resolution.

6. Personal Testimonies: The Role of Hope and Coping Mechanisms

[13:56 - 16:18]

The episode includes a listener call from Richard, who relates his experience with bouts of depression and posits that belief in conspiracy theories might serve as a coping mechanism to ward off feelings of hopelessness. O' Sullivan agrees, noting that:

"A lot of these conspiracy theories... are essentially fate structures and some of them are designed and mirror really centuries, millennia old religion because they see that actually as a successful infrastructure for belief and for providing comfort."
— Dhoni O' Sullivan [14:45]

He makes it clear that belief in conspiracy theories doesn't necessarily stem from clinical mental health issues but can be a universal human response to trauma and uncertainty.

7. Conclusion: Understanding and Empathy as Tools Against Misinformation

[16:18 - 16:33]

As the conversation wraps up, both hosts reiterate the importance of empathy and understanding in addressing the spread of conspiracy theories. The episode underscores that combating misinformation isn't just about presenting facts but also about addressing the emotional and psychological needs that such beliefs fulfill.

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Key Takeaways:

• Community and Meaning: Conspiracy theories often provide a sense of belonging and purpose.
• Emotional Drivers: Feelings and emotional states heavily influence belief systems more than factual accuracy.
• Coping Mechanism: Belief in conspiracies can serve as a way to cope with trauma, anxiety, and uncertainty.
• Empathy Over Judgment: Understanding the human vulnerabilities behind conspiracy beliefs is essential for meaningful dialogue.
• Shared Humanity: Both believers and skeptics share common emotional experiences, which can bridge gaps in understanding.

Notable Quotes:

• "Facts, feelings convince people more than facts do."
  — Dhoni O' Sullivan [08:57]

• "We want to recognize patterns. It's part of our evolutionary biology."
  — Dhoni O' Sullivan [09:27]

• "A lot of these conspiracy theories... are essentially fate structures and some of them are designed and mirror really centuries, millennia old religion because they see that actually as a successful infrastructure for belief and for providing comfort."
  — Dhoni O' Sullivan [14:45]

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This episode of All Of It offers a compassionate exploration into the allure of conspiracy theories, emphasizing the need for empathy and understanding in an age where misinformation can easily proliferate through digital platforms. By humanizing the subjects of these beliefs, Dhoni O' Sullivan provides listeners with a nuanced perspective on the complex interplay between psychology, community, and misinformation.

Transcript

[David Fuerst]

This is all of it on wnyc. I'm David Fuerst in for Alison Stewart. Today, the Internet has put so much information at our fingertips. You can learn how to calculate the volume of a sphere or what the ancient Romans ate for breakfast, or you might just find out why exactly the lizard people are hell bent on poisoning the water supply. And okay, wait a minute. There are no lizard people. But unless we are careful about separating the bad information from the good while searching the web, we run the risk of stumbling into some wild rabbit holes and then re emerging with some pretty outrageous beliefs. A new podcast series from CNN called Persuadable explores the rise of conspiracy theories and why some people have come to believe the unbelievable. So let's dive into the psychology of conspiracy theories now with CNN senior correspondent and the host of Persuadable, Dhoni o' Sullivan. Dhoni, welcome.

[Dhoni O' Sullivan]

Hi, David. Thank you so much for having me.

[David Fuerst]

So talk about this podcast, Persuadable. You speak with experts who argue that it is not just about media literacy, it's also about identity and community and the feeling that comes with the belief that we're one of the lucky few, right, who are smart enough to see the truth even when the truth is completely bonkers. Can you set the scene for us here? How are we persuadable?

[Dhoni O' Sullivan]

Well, yes, absolutely. I mean, look, I've been covering conspiracy theories and false belief or superstitious belief for CNN for eight or nine years now. And you know, obviously we've seen many iterations of that, particularly during 2020 when it came to so much Covid den and vaccine skepticism and vaccine conspiracy theories. And of course also things like QAnon and election denialism. And look, you know, I'm a news reporter, so oftentimes we are jumping from sort of one news story to the next or one conspiracy theory to the next. And what I really wanted to do with this podcast, Persuadable was just really try and get at the human emotion, the human reasons that we all can believe crazy stuff, right? And you know, I think it's very easy to laugh at what the, what people can believe because it sounds absurd. But really, once you get into it and you mention it there, people get a lot out of conspiracy theories. They find a lot of meaning. They find community.

[David Fuerst]

Well, Tony, you talk about things that people go through very real struggles and anxieties that can lead them to buy into conspiracies. And you also compare some of that to your own mental health struggles. Can you talk about that? Why it's important to you to bring that into the conversation and the mission of the podcast? To talk about yourself instead of just this straight reporting.

[Dhoni O' Sullivan]

Yeah, well, I mean, I believe that we all have irrational beliefs at times, right? We all have superstitions, we all believe things. Maybe not right now, but at certain, certain times in our lives that we look back and say, wow, that, that's crazy, that I believe that, or maybe, you know, you know, somebody you love right now who believes something that's crazy. And what really got me thinking in this way and about how I approach people who believe, quote, unquote, crazy things is the irrational beliefs that I can hold myself. And I give the example of the JFK assassination, really the sort of ground zero of 20th century American conspiracy theories. We found a group that was way beyond even the standard conspiracy theory when it came to jfk. It was a group of people who actually believed that JFK had not been assassinated, that he was in some way still alive. And this group, which essentially turned into a cult with a quite charismatic leader, we're showing up, we're leaving their families, and we're going to Dallas, going to the grassy knoll, waiting for JFK to come back. So you look at that and you say, that is objectively nuts. And therefore all the people who believe this must also be nuts. But I spent a lot of time with them, and I spent more importantly, a lot of time with their families who had been left behind. And what I found overwhelmingly is the people who were there standing at the grassy knoll waiting for JFK to appear. And this was tied up into a wider QAnon conspiracy theory. It's a rabbit hole of its own. But these are all product. These were or are, you know, productive members of society. They have families, they have kids, they have jobs. And so trying to understand what it was, what was the thing that made them sort of click and go, I'm going to engage in this. And. And so as I spoke to, to these believers, I could sort of see we could have normal conversations, but you bring up JFK and it's like something clicks and you could see them. This is their thing. And, you know, I have that too. Personally, I. Yeah, I've suffered with mental health, anxiety, depression, OCD for a lot of my life. And I can be perfectly rational about many things. But if I'm going through an episode, sometimes that can last weeks or months, you know, I can. I see that switch go off in my mind too, when something triggers me. So it was my way, I guess, of trying to unlock the empathy and really trying to get to a place to see past the crazy beliefs and to understand why. Why do people engage in this sort of thinking?

[David Fuerst]

Well, absolutely, Dodie. And the tone of your podcast, not at all a finger pointing. Those people are the ones, those that fall prey to ridiculous information. It feels much more of an inclusive. We are all at risk and need to be on guard.

[Dhoni O' Sullivan]

Yeah. And look, I mean, the funny thing about following this, frankly, again, it's fair to say these beliefs are bizarre, are crazy, or whatever way you want to describe them. But from following this group that had gathered for months at a time, some of them in Dallas, they were having a great time. There's a community, community purpose, this idea that they understood something that the rest of the world did not. And as I got to know some of them better, as I got to speak to their families more, all of them, all of the believers had gone through some sort of tragedy or traumatic event. Whether it was early in their life or whether it was something more recent. It could be, you know, a debt, a divor, a lot of empty nesters, recent empty nesters sort of engaging in this space. And, you know, I think a lot of listeners will be saying, well, look, we've all dealt with stuff like that, but we don't believe that JFK is alive.

[David Fuerst]

Right. Well. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[Dhoni O' Sullivan]

No, no, but, but I, but, I mean, I think we just, we just have to think about how we all process trauma and grief differently.

[David Fuerst]

We are asking you to join the conversation. By the way, if you or a loved one has been impacted by conspiracy theories, we would love to have you join this conversation. Call in to share what the experience has taught you about the relationship between beliefs, reality and the psychology of misinformation. The number to call, 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. We're speaking with Dhoni O' Sullivan, CN correspondent. And emotions and trust versus facts. Can you talk about what convinces us to believe what we believe? I mean, some things you would think are very obvious based on things that we see and experience, right?

[Dhoni O' Sullivan]

Yeah. And this is, it's difficult to hear for a journalist, but from the psychologists we spoke to, it's not facts. Facts, feelings convince people more than facts do. And I mean, I think you don't have to look too far in our national politics to see how it really is feelings that is motivating so much of what is happening in this country today. And look, it is that I think 2020, I think we'll be kind of studying, trying to figure out the fallout from 2020 for decades to come when it comes to false belief. Because that was a time, of course, where we were all isolated, where we were all searching for answers, and where most of us only had our screens, right, and social media. And it was a difficult time, a difficult, difficult to accept that something that was disrupting our lives, as was Covid, was this, this. This random thing, right? Something that was out of control. And a lot of people chose to believe that, no, this was a virus that was deliberately, you know, released into the world, that it was part of an evil plot. And. But what we found in that also is that, you know, that is, as human beings, we. We can't handle randomness very well. We. We want to recognize patterns. It's. It's part of our evolutionary biology. So even having this idea that, you know, there's some evil cabal or there's an evil people in the shadows that have control, as terrifying as that may be, that can be less scary than the reality, which is life. And the world is messy and a lot of things happen at random, and there isn't somebody in control.

[David Fuerst]

We're talking about your CNN podcast, Persuadable, which explores the psychology of conspiracy theories. In the first episode, you hear a lot of Trump supporters telling you that your employer, CNN is, is essentially untrustworthy propaganda, but then they actually open up to you. Can you talk about those conversations?

[Dhoni O' Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah. I find that a lot, really. Of course, certain segment of the electorate, from listening to the president, are not fans of mainstream media, especially some particular outlets. But what I've had the privilege of doing in my job over the last few years is just having long conversations with people and getting to, frankly, know a lot of people and knowing people who believe in QAnon and who believe that the 2020 election was stolen, but also trying to, you know, if I walk into those conversations and say, well, you're wrong, and here's. I'm fact checking you, and actually, you're foolish for believing that that's gonna be the end of the conversation. Right? I mean, that's gonna be it. So I've had, you know, it's threading this needle, really, of saying, okay, let's accept that you believe these false things, but let's try and understand why. And not the, oh, CNN is bad, Trump is good. But what is this? What are you getting out of this? What are you getting out of these beliefs? It does go back to that sense of community, meaning, purpose. Also, a lot of Times like, look, a lot, a lot of, a lot of people in this country are suffering. A lot of people have really bad lives. It's a tough time. The economy is tough. People kind of want to be able to point to something to blame, to say, well, you know, this can't, there has to be some reason. It must be the people coming over the border. It must be, you know, shattering forces, a couple, all that sort of thing again. Now I think some people listening to this will also say, well, that's all well and good to try and have empathy for folks, but a lot of people who are down these rabbit holes, you know, a lot of these rabbit holes are lined with homophobia, racism, antisemitism. So I think a lot of listeners will say, well, it's very difficult for me to have empathy for a person who might subscribe to a set of beliefs that frankly questions and challenges my ex. And that's totally fair. But I think that's something that I've also tried to explore is that a lot of people who go down these rabbit holes get deep into them before they realize that so much of what they are hearing and starting to believe are just tropes. Right. So a lot of people go into these things not so willingly or they don't go in as hateful people, but they can become that when they get so into this.

[David Fuerst]

I want to take a phone call if you'd like to join the conversation. 212-433-9692. Talking about the CNN podcast Persuadable Richard from Dobbs Ferry. Welcome to all of it. Hi. Thank you. And I think this is a really interesting subject. I had a question though, is occasionally I'll suffer from little bouts of depression. And then when you were talking about the jfk, the people that are sort of hoping he'll come back, it just gave me a thought. I wonder if this might be to sort of ward off depression. Might be to have a belief in something that might give you hope that there might be something better out there or a reason for maybe some of your problems. I wonder if your guests could comment on that.

[Dhoni O' Sullivan]

Absolutely. I think that is such a spot on point. Right. I mean, I think, and thank you for sharing that you also experience things like this, same as myself. There is that. Right. I think there is that some people turn to religion, it's organized religion or fate of some kind. I mean, a lot of these conspiracy theories, it's essentially fate structures and some of them are designed and mirror really centuries, millennia old religion because they see that actually as a successful infrastructure for belief and for providing comfort. So I think you're absolutely right there. One thing, you know, as we do talk about mental health in this, you know, I want to make very clear that you don't have to have be clinically depressed or have, you know, a diagnosed mental health issue to believe in conspiracy theories. Right. You don't have to have that at all. But I think what I'm trying to come at it from is this point that for me, this is my way of unlocking empathy. So some folks process trauma and deal with life by sort of externalizing their irrationality, thinking JFK is alive. For me, as somebody who suffers from depression and anxiety, I will internalize that. I will blame myself. I will think irrational things about me. So that's where I try to make that connection.

[David Fuerst]

Well, we're going to have to leave it there. I have so many more questions. Thank you so much for joining us. CNN senior correspondent and host of the Persuadable podcast, Dhoni o' Sullivan. Thank you for joining us.

[Dhoni O' Sullivan]

Thank you so much.

[David Fuerst]

I'm Ira Plato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their livescancer climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.