Podcast Summary: All Of It – "Why We’re Obsessed with Murder"

Host: Alison Stewart (WNYC)
Guest: Dr. Matt DeLisi, Criminologist and Professor at Iowa State University
Date: October 31, 2025
Theme: Exploring America's enduring fascination with true crime, the psychological and cultural drivers behind it, and the ethics of making real tragedies into entertainment.

Episode Overview

On this Halloween edition, Alison Stewart welcomes criminologist Dr. Matt DeLisi to unpack the American appetite for true crime. Their discussion traverses the roots of the genre, its moral implications, the psychology of both creators and consumers, and how true crime shapes (and is shaped by) issues like gender, empathy, and sensationalism. The show also incorporates thoughtful questions from listeners, adding depth to the debate on why murder obsesses us, and where the genre sometimes goes astray.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Dr. Matt DeLisi’s Fascination with Criminology and True Crime

• DeLisi’s Early Interest:

  • Dr. DeLisi describes a lifelong attraction to crime stories, both academic and popular:

    "I've been interested in criminology and true crime and criminal justice since I was a child. Always gravitated towards criminal justice programs, even if they were comedies, and just naturally found the material to be very interesting." (02:26)

  • Writing his book on Ted Bundy brought an "exponentially higher" level of attention compared to his academic work, revealing true crime's unique pull on public imagination.

• Difference Between Academic and Popular Reception:

  • Academic criminology tends to remain inside the academy; true crime, when written for the public, “grabs the audience in a much different way... the content seemed to grab the audience in a much different way than it did even similar kinds of information from an academic perspective.” (03:14)

2. The Historical and Sociological Roots of True Crime

• True Crime: Bread and Butter Sociology:

  • DeLisi traces the genre back to Emile Durkheim’s idea of "conscience collective"—society’s shared moral code, which is reinforced when people confront and process serious crimes:

    "When you have a serious crime, it violates the moral order and it angers and arouses the public because they want to simultaneously affirm their own goodness and affirm the moral order, while also drawing a line in the sand..." (05:38)

  • Sensationalism’s Long History: For centuries, people have devoured stories about murder because they want to understand evil and protect themselves. True crime has always had an “elitist, populist split,” with academics sometimes sneering at it while the general public devours it.

    "There was this elitist, populist split about the popularity of true crime or sensationalism, that the general public love to hear about crime and read about it. And some segments of elitist quarters found it distasteful or beneath them." (07:05)

• Personal Reception in Academia and Beyond:

  • DeLisi notes being both subtly condescended to for his interest in true crime and met with enthusiasm by prospective students and parents who value his engagement with current culture.

3. Iconic Works and the Victim Focus

• The Greatness of 'In Cold Blood':
  • DeLisi calls Truman Capote’s In Cold Blood “probably the best true crime book ever written" (08:46), for its powerful juxtaposition between monstrous perpetrator and innocent victims.
• Victim-Centric Narratives:
  • Contrary to criticism, true crime often centers and honors victims and survivors:

    “The number one important part about the true crime genre... is that it sheds light and provides information about victims and survivors of crime... to understand and empathize with the victims and survivors and to celebrate, if they've survived, their ascendancy...” (09:42)

  • Ann Rule’s Green River book is held up as a model, dedicating chapters to victims rather than the perpetrator (11:23).

4. True Crime’s Investigative Power (and Its Limits)

• Role of Podcasts and Documentaries:
  • True crime can mobilize public interest to solve cold cases and spark new investigations:

    "True crime—that intellectual energy—can be the mobilizing energy that's used to either have citizens generate enough information that a case can move forward or to motivate the criminal justice system to examine a case with much more vigor than it did in the first place." (12:49)

• Caution Against Excess:
  • Sometimes, though, amateur sleuthing can waste time or become obsessive without results:

    "It's also probably true that there are some cases where... there really isn't any additional information to be had or anywhere else to go with it." (13:28)

5. Sensationalism vs. Responsibility: Listener Leah’s Critique [14:08]

• Caller Leah (Canarsi): Raised concerns about TikTok and other short-form content removing nuance and humanity, treating cases as mere spectacle (14:08).
• DeLisi’s Response:
  • Shares the ethical consideration behind omitting graphic details from his book out of respect for victims’ families (16:00).
  • Warns that stories shouldn’t “capitalize on a person’s suffering, and shouldn’t try to romanticize an individual who is...reprehensible.”
  • He recounts being contacted by women who survived predatory encounters with Bundy, illustrating how victim-centered storytelling can be empowering:

    "Several of these women made the point to me that they often disbelieve their own experience...They felt empowered by my book because my thesis is that he was killing far earlier and in far more states than we generally know." (16:50)

6. The Diversity of Killers—and of Motivation

• Caller Daniel’s Question: Explores types of killers—from psychopathic serial killers to 'crimes of desperation' (24:29).
• DeLisi’s Response:
  • True crime's appeal lies partly in the diversity of offender profiles and motives:

    "Among those who will commit what criminologists might call normal homicides...sometimes you won't see any of these symptoms at all. And I think that also is fascinating to people...because they want to understand how can you have people who are... inclined to commit pathological criminal behavior...[or when] normal people do it?" (24:38)

  • Real-life interviews often subvert expectations, showing complexity and unexpected humanity or repulsiveness.

7. Women and the Genre

• Why Are Women the Biggest Fans? [Host/Producer, 26:51]:
  • Texts and callers highlight women’s centrality both in victimization stories and as primary consumers.
• DeLisi’s Take:
  • He devoted a chapter called “Girl Power” to this phenomenon:

    "Women have much more engagement, much more favorable opinions about the genre, even in crimes and cases that involve women victims...There's also a very personal and poignant sense of self protection and self help that I think true crime provides for women." (27:25)

  • Many female students report learning practical safety tips from cases, especially those involving attackers like Ted Bundy. Overconsumption, however, can “bog down” listeners, so he advocates balance (29:24).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Why People Love True Crime:

  “The content seemed to grab the audience in a much different way than it did even similar kinds of information from an academic perspective.” — Matt DeLisi (03:14)

• On Societal Functions of True Crime:

  “There was this elitist, populist split about the popularity of true crime or sensationalism. . .the general public love to hear about crime and read about it. And some segments of elitist quarters found it distasteful or beneath them.” — Matt DeLisi (07:05)

• On Empathy and Learning:

  "The number one important part about the true crime genre to [Americans] is that it sheds light and provides information about victims and survivors of crime..." — Matt DeLisi (09:42)

• On Real-Life Impact:

  "[My] book was empowering to some of these women who went through this...All of them mentioned...how predatory and almost surreal [Bundy’s] eye contact was..." — Matt DeLisi (16:50)

• On Women & True Crime:

  "There's also a very personal and poignant sense of self protection and self help that I think true crime provides for women." — Matt DeLisi (27:25)

• On Self-Care for True Crime Fans:

  "I think it's important for true crime aficionados to be able to compartmentalize their interest and balance it out with something that's a little more uplifting..." — Matt DeLisi (29:24)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:07–02:20: Intro and host welcomes Dr. Matt DeLisi
• 02:20–04:13: Dr. DeLisi describes his personal and professional attraction to true crime
• 05:23–08:41: Historical roots; Durkheim’s conscience collective; society’s fascination with crime
• 08:41–10:32: Discussion of In Cold Blood and the value of focusing on victims
• 11:23–12:58: True crime’s potential to mobilize investigations; citizen involvement
• 13:59–15:45: Caller Leah critiques sensationalism and poor taste in some true crime content
• 16:00–19:51: DeLisi elaborates on ethical storytelling, the impact on real survivors
• 20:50–24:29: Callers Rebecca and Daniel on representation and the diversity of murderers
• 24:38–26:51: DeLisi addresses various motivations for homicide and the potential for learning from true crime
• 27:25–29:44: Why women dominate the true crime audience; self-protective value
• 29:44–29:54: Wrap-up and thanks

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, absorbing look at why Americans are enthralled by murder stories. Dr. DeLisi and Stewart probe the messy ethics, potential for empathy, and the genre’s strange power as both mirror and molder of society. Listeners and guests alike underscore that true crime’s appeal lies at the intersection of fear, curiosity, justice, and identity—and that handling tragedy with care is more important than ever in the era of content overload.

For full interviews and more cultural conversations, listen to 'All Of It' with Alison Stewart on WNYC.