'Wicked' Production Designer Nathan Crowley

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Of It - 'Wicked' Production Designer Nathan Crowley

Episode Details:

• Title: 'Wicked' Production Designer Nathan Crowley
• Host: Alison Stewart
• Release Date: February 28, 2025
• Series: The Big Picture (Spotlighting Oscar-nominated talent behind the camera)

---

Introduction to Nathan Crowley and the Episode

In this episode of All Of It, host Alison Stewart engages in an in-depth conversation with Nathan Crowley, an Oscar-nominated production designer recognized for his exceptional work on the film adaptation of Wicked. Crowley's impressive portfolio includes notable films such as The Greatest Showman, The Dark Knight, Interstellar, and Dunkirk. This discussion delves into the intricate process of bringing the fantastical world of Oz to life through practical set designs, the challenges faced during production, and Crowley's personal journey in the realm of production design.

---

Practical Set Design vs. CGI

Crowley emphasizes the importance of integrating practical sets with CGI to maintain a tangible, authentic feel in fantasy films.

• Balancing Practical and Digital:
  "Instead of relying on just CGI, Crowley and his team actually built the sets from Emerald City to Shiz Universe to Glinda and Elphaba's dorm room."
  (Nathan Crowley [02:01])

  Crowley explains that relying solely on CGI can detach audiences from the immersive experience. By constructing physical sets, they aim to evoke an "old school feeling" and provide a sense of originality and nostalgia.

• Impact on Actors:
  "Especially with younger actors, you know, they're not used to seeing fully realized props. So, we also have animatronic puppeteers."
  (Nathan Crowley [02:57])

  Practical sets enhance the actors' performances by allowing them to interact with tangible environments and elements, fostering a more genuine portrayal of their characters.

• Audience Experience:
  "As a designer, your ultimate task is to a little bit go unnoticed and let the audience sink into Oz and the story and the narrative."
  (Nathan Crowley [03:47])

  The goal is to create believable environments that allow the audience to fully immerse themselves in the film without being distracted by the mechanics behind the scenes.

---

Collaborating with Director John Shue

Crowley details his collaborative process with director John Shue, highlighting the synergy required to translate the script into visual storytelling.

• Initial Vision Alignment:
  "It's about spending time with people because we're all just searching with. Searching for the film."
  (Nathan Crowley [04:34])

  Crowley and Shue engage in extensive discussions to align their visions, ensuring that the production design accurately reflects the director's creative intentions.

• Visual Storyboarding:
  "We try and find common threads and themes and ideas by putting images on the wall in scene order."
  (Nathan Crowley [06:39])

  This methodical approach allows the team to construct a cohesive visual narrative, akin to a storyboard, that guides the film's aesthetic direction.

---

Challenges in Designing Wicked

Crowley candidly discusses the numerous challenges faced during the production of Wicked, particularly the ambitious scale and the commitment to practical effects.

• Scale and Complexity:
  "This was by far the most. The biggest and most challenging."
  (Nathan Crowley [06:48])

  The sheer scale of building extensive practical sets, such as Shiz and Emerald City, posed significant logistical and creative hurdles.

• Technical Difficulties:
  "There is no water tank in film that doesn't leak."
  (Nathan Crowley [08:44])

  Constructing large-scale practical elements like water tanks required innovative solutions to prevent issues like leaks, ensuring the integrity of the sets throughout production.

• Creative Problem-Solving:
  Crowley illustrates the intricate problem-solving involved, from designing a 100-foot train to integrating mechanical elements that align with the wizard's character.

---

The 9 Million Tulips: A Case Study in Production Design

One of the most fascinating aspects of Crowley's work on Wicked was the creation of the meadows leading to Emerald City, achieved through the planting of nine million tulips.

• Logistical Execution:
  "We need 9 million bulbs from Holland."
  (Nathan Crowley [15:59])

  Crowley recounts the logistical challenge of sourcing and planting nine million tulip bulbs, a task that required meticulous coordination and collaboration with tulip farmers.

• Creative Decision-Making:
  "All the colors of the rainbow is like, what can we grow? And then you immediately go to tulips."
  (Nathan Crowley [15:43])

  The decision to use tulips was driven by the desire to incorporate vibrant, rainbow-colored flowers that would enhance the visual splendor of the film's setting.

• Adaptability and Teamwork:
  When confronted with the reality of planting nine million bulbs instead of the initially thought one million, Crowley navigated the situation with flexibility and effective communication, ensuring the project's success.

---

Designing the Dorm Room: Elphaba and Glinda's Shared Space

Crowley explores the nuanced design of the dorm room shared by the protagonists, Elphaba and Glinda, highlighting how spatial design reflects character dynamics.

• Spatial Dynamics:
  "I knew if I made it circular, the camera wouldn't feel the restriction of the space."
  (Nathan Crowley [19:00])

  The elliptical shape of the dorm room was intentional, allowing for a sense of openness despite the limited space, thereby avoiding a feeling of confinement.

• Aesthetic Inspirations:
  "We went up to the sort of crazy onion domes at the top. We got a little private tour and it's like, okay, the room needs to be elliptical."
  (Nathan Crowley [19:00])

  Drawing inspiration from the Brighton Pavilion's unique architecture, Crowley infused the dorm room with distinct design elements that mirror the characters' personalities and their eventual lack of harmony.

• Integration with Choreography:
  The design process involved close collaboration with choreographers to ensure that the set accommodated complex dance sequences, incorporating practical effects like hydraulics for dynamic stage movements.

---

Crowley’s Career and Design Philosophy

The conversation also delves into Crowley's career trajectory and his evolving philosophy on production design.

• Career Beginnings:
  "Barry Levinson was actually the one who got me started on a film called An Everlasting Peace."
  (Nathan Crowley [12:46])

  Crowley's journey from set designer and art director to a renowned production designer was significantly influenced by his work with industry veterans like Barry Levinson.

• Design Philosophy:
  "Design is about fluid thinking. It's like, how are we going to solve that? It's not about negativity, it's about positivity and solving problems."
  (Nathan Crowley [12:54])

  This optimistic and solution-oriented approach underpins Crowley's methodology, driving him to navigate challenges creatively and collaboratively.

• Influence of Narrative on Design:
  Crowley stresses that every design decision stems from the script and the characters, ensuring that the visual elements serve the story's thematic and emotional needs.

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Alison Stewart summarizing her insightful conversation with Nathan Crowley, appreciating his dedication to practical effects and his ability to translate complex narratives into visually stunning realities. Stewart hints at the upcoming discussion with makeup artist Pierre Olivier Persan, setting the stage for continued exploration of behind-the-scenes artistry in filmmaking.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "Audiences feel that [a blend of practical sets and CGI]... the nostalgia of the set rather than being popped out of the experience by too much CGI." (Nathan Crowley [02:01])
• "If we can put them there in that place without them questioning it, then we've done our job." (Nathan Crowley [03:47])
• "Design is about fluid thinking... It's about positivity and solving problems." (Nathan Crowley [12:54])

---

Timestamp Highlights:

• 02:01 – Importance of practical sets over pure CGI
• 02:57 – Enhancing actors' performances with tangible elements
• 03:47 – Goal of immersive audience experience
• 04:34 – Collaboration with director John Shue
• 06:48 – Discussing the scale and challenges of the project
• 15:43 – Decision-making behind the tulip meadows
• 19:00 – Designing the dorm room for Elphaba and Glinda
• 12:46 – Career insights and mentorship under Barry Levinson

---

This summary encapsulates the rich dialogue between Alison Stewart and Nathan Crowley, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the meticulous artistry and collaborative effort involved in bringing Wicked to the screen.

Transcript

[Nathan Crowley]

Listener support WNYC Studios.

[Alison Stewart]

You are listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. The Oscars are on Sunday, so let's continue my conversations with some of this year's nominees. In just a bit. We'll learn about the practical special effects behind the gruesome transformations in the substance. We'll also discuss the artistic inspirations behind some of the grandest looks in Gladiator 2 with the Oscar nominated costume designers. But first, let's get this hour started by heading to the wonderful world of Oz. In the new Wicked film adaptation, Glinda and Elphaba go on a journey to meet the wizard of Oz. And now let's meet the wizard behind the film's detailed, practical, yet fantastical set design. Nathan Crowley is nominated at this year's Oscars for his Wicked production design. He's previously worked on films like the Greatest Showman, the Dark Knight, Interstellar, Dunkirk and more. Instead of relying on just cgi, Crowley and his team actually built the sets from Emerald City to Shiz Universe to Glinda and Elphaba's dorm room. And yes, it is true, they did plant 9 million tulips for the meadows. Nathan Crowley took home the BAFTA for his work earlier this month and he is Oscar nominated for best Production design. He joined us as part of our Oscar series the Big Picture where we spotlight talent nominated for their work behind the camera. I began my conversation with Nathan by asking him why it was important for him to create practical sets for this movie.

[Nathan Crowley]

I think, well, first of all, I sort of come from films where we do things practically. I don't think a lot of people know that we tend not to advertise it that much. But on this film we were moving into fantasy and it was really important to not solely rely on cgi because I think audiences feel that. So we have to intertwine it with practical sets and that's really to get sort of an old school feeling. It changes the look when you build it for real, you extend it with CGI, but you go as high as you can to 50 foot and you try and interweave it so the audience, you know, feels the sort of originality or the nostalgia of the set rather than being popped out of the experience by too much cgi. So the balance was essential.

[Alison Stewart]

What does it do for the actors to be on a CGI set? I mean, on a non CGI set, on a practical set?

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, what's amazing is, especially with younger actors, you, they, you know, they're not used to seeing Fully realized pets. And so, you know, we also, you know, we have animatronic puppeteers. And we did the big wizard's head physically, and it was, you know, it's 15 foot high. It could. It was all animatronics, so it could have expressions. So when that came out the curtain, I, I think we really. We got Glinda and Elphaba to jump. But you should, because, you know, the theory behind that is he tries to intimidate people. So you want it to be surprising and you want the audience to sort of sit back in their seats as well.

[Alison Stewart]

I was going to ask then, what does the theater goer get from practical sets?

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, hopefully they feel like they believe. I mean, as a designer, your ultimate task is to a little bit go unnoticed and let the audience sink into Oz and the story and the narrative. So if we can put them there in that place without them questioning it. To me, we, we. We've done our job in cinema. You know, to me, cinema is about falling into the film and losing yourself for however long the film runs. And so can we keep you lost in Oz for over two hours? You know, and that's, to me, that's the job.

[Alison Stewart]

You obviously work with director John Shue. What ideas did you have when you first read the script and you first talked to him?

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, how did it work? He phoned. We had a long chat on a Zoom call, and then Mark Platt got involved and they asked me to come out to L. A and spend a few days with John. I think. I think we were. I think that process of a designer and director is you spend days or weeks together and you try and find visually the film. He has a script, he. He has ideas of what he's looking to do and what kind of sort of wondrous, whimsical world he's got. John wanted. I need to now sit with him and take that. That vision of that film he's running in his head, and I need to put it into mine and then get the visuals going. So it's about spending time with people because we're all just searching with. Searching for the film. You know, it doesn't like, oh, this is the way we're going to do it. ABCD it's like you're kind of investigating it. Like you're investigating Oz. You're investigating Wicked, the stage show. You're, you know, you're investigating the fact that's an American fairy tale and we need Americana. And what, what, what, what are those images? Like? The train is an American Image, you know, in the giant flat barley fields. We planted those as well.

[Alison Stewart]

Oh, yeah, we're gonna get to the barley. We got. We got a lot to discuss.

[Nathan Crowley]

You're looking at the themes. You know, you're looking for visual themes. And we. We work like. Like the writers work in a writer's room where they put up scenes and, you know, and they try and find the jigsaw puzzle of the story. We do the same, but with visuals. We try and find common threads and themes and ideas by putting images on the wall in scene order. And you try and run a film as a sort of. As a sort of visual, you know, storyboard. So it's pretty exciting stuff. When you're in those rooms, it's. You lose hours and hours because you're. You're lost in a visual process, and that's engaging.

[Alison Stewart]

What was challenging. What was a scene that was particularly challenging for you as a production designer on Wicked? And he's laughing at me.

[Nathan Crowley]

It was all challenging. I mean, I've done a lot of big films, uh, and this was by far the most. The biggest and most challenging. And I sort of set. You know, I've made my own problems by saying I want to build as much as practically, and. And that caused problems for my crew. So I think physically, Shiz was probably the toughest design wise, sort of mentally design wise. Emerald City was the trickiest because it's a very difficult image to sort of find a new look for. But she's. Because we've decided, you know, when we're in those rooms, we say, okay, how do you get to Shiz? You know, you can't go by horse and cart because you're stepping on the freedom of the animals. And that's part of the narrative. You can't go by balloon because the wizard owns that. You can't go by mechanical clockwork train because the wizard owns that as well. You know, you can't go back. There's no cars in Oz. So you end up with an obvious thing. It's like, oh, rivers. We go on. We go by river. We got to. We got to get Glinda and all the other students into. Into Shiz. By river and boat. So if you're a practical filmmaker, you go find a river and then you go and build a boat and Aussie boat, and you get a journey. And. And that, to me, is cinema. That journey is the start. Start off Dear Old Shears, you know, and you've got to go in through the archway. And the problem with. Then you go in through the archway and you realize we've got to build a backlot that has a water tank in it. So you, you create your own. So then you've got to build a jar water tank and then you got to build the set in the water tank. And then you have to, then you have to figure out how we're going to shoot it because the camera crew is like, how are we going to shoot this?

[Alison Stewart]

You know, looks real pretty. How do, how do we do it?

[Nathan Crowley]

So I mean, we've built, I built water tanks before, not this size. And I can tell you this, there is no water tank in film that doesn't leak. So I mean, but at the same time, you're like, you're with, I'm with my construction team of 20 years and it's like, okay, we're going to try and attempt this and that. They get excited and they go, okay, how are we going to do. And the physics of that and the mechanics. And then you've got special effects coming in and they're saying, well, how can we do this and how can we move this? How can we rotate bookshelves? You know, but it excites everyone. No one is bored on that set.

[Alison Stewart]

My guest is Nathan Crowley, Oscar nominated for Wicked. He is a production designer. He's here as part of our installment the Big Picture series where we speak to Oscar nominated talent who work behind the camera. When you were thinking about the production design of Wicked, you obviously have to think about the wizard of Oz and that universe and as you said, the Americana of it all. What was your original relationship with the wizard of Oz?

[Nathan Crowley]

Just. I grew up in London and every once a year, you know, at Christmas I'd watch the wizard of Oz every Christmas. So probably like many kids. And so I kind of knew that film pretty intimately. And to sort of take on the 39 film and really put, you know, because it was done with backings very cleverly on a sound, the MGM style sound stages. It might be in the water sound stages. Anyway, it doesn't matter. To push into that backing and cross through the backing into Emerald City was really the challenge. It's like I want to, I want to get off the Arabic road. I want to physically go into Emerald City. I mean, Wicked, the play obviously has, she's, has some, some, you know, different scenery that wizard of Oz doesn't have.

[Alison Stewart]

Did you do research into the making of the wizard of Oz or even Wicked?

[Nathan Crowley]

I obviously went to see wizards. Sorry, Wicked. Many, many times. The wizard of Oz. I kind of, I, I Sort of started in the film industry at Warner Brothers and mgm, the old mgm, which is now Sony. So I. I love the history of those sound stages. So I always used to. I used to go and look at them and look at what was shot in there. And you. And you. And so I. I sort of had the research in my head, if that makes sense. Because it always. I mean, it was always there, you know, and there's a. There's. There's an interesting thing about the old MGM lot, which is obviously where they did a lot of great musicals, is all the stages are different sizes. And that's because you build different sets and they. You have a requirement. And nowadays all the stages are the same size, which I. It's like I never understood. It's like, well, you might want to get really high or really low, you know. So, anyway, that's. Sorry I went off.

[Alison Stewart]

That's okay. How did you get your start in production design?

[Nathan Crowley]

I. Where was I. I was living in Los Angeles and I had been a set designer, then an art director. I was lucky enough to start on Hook, which kind of has a relevance to this. But I was just a draftsman. And then my production design start was really. When I went. I lived. I moved to Ireland. I said, well, I went to Ireland to make Braveheart as an art director, and I stayed there. And Barry Levinson hired me on a very small film he was doing there as the production designer. So that's. Barry Levinson, actually was the one who got me started on a film called An Everlasting Peace, which is sort of the play on. On wigs.

[Alison Stewart]

Well, what did you learn from An Everlasting Piece that has stuck with you as a production designer?

[Nathan Crowley]

You have to have a voice in the room and you have to have. You have to have a voice in the room and you have to have sort of ideas and you have to. You have to sort of look and see and think. It's a very. Sort of design is, for me, is about, like, fluid thinking. It's like, how are we going to solve that? It's not about negativity, it's about positivity and solving problems. And I think that Barry taught me how to. How you could see a problem, just look at it differently. So I think that's, you know, that's where it. That's. That's how it started, really.

[Alison Stewart]

That's interesting. You said problems and puzzles.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah.

[Alison Stewart]

I sense that. That you do a lot of that.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah. The puzzle is. Is to, like, how, you know, how are we going to do. How are we going to build 100 foot train and run it for a barley field? You know, it's like, you'll sit around with my team is like, okay, what's that train look like? You know, who is the wizard? He's an illusionist. You know what, what mechanics do illusionists have inside? If you go back to, you know, the late 1800s, you have automatons and you look at the orange tree and the orange tree was a watchmaking. It was, it seemed to come to life, but it was all just mechanics. And so that feeds back into who the wizard is. He's more than an illusion. He's more than the man behind the curtain. He has a sort of a automaton, sort of clockwork technology. And then you push that back into the train. Because we don't just want a steam train. You want, you want the wizards train. And so you have to find a way into that design and how you can manipulate the themes or the story to help you give him technology. And then you apply that to the head when he's got those cranks in the film and he's pulling all those levers and that operates his mechanical head. So it's kind of. Does that make sense?

[Alison Stewart]

Yes. But it's interesting because it does come from the character.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah, everything comes from the script. So you, you. I guess that's why I was saying early on, I, I kind of want John to put his version of, of the script into my head so we can then take his characters and the way, what he wants from the film and push it back into design and see if we can find themes like the tulips were all the colors of the rainbow, you know, or you have to work back from what is, what do we want to gain from color. And it's like, well, all the colors of the rainbow is like, what can we grow? And then you immediately go to tulips. So you sort of work your way back to the idea, if that makes sense.

[Alison Stewart]

All right, let's talk about those 9 million tulips you planted. I swear, I, I researched it. I put it in Google. Like, 9 million. You planted 9 million tulips leading up to Emerald City. Logistically, how does one get 9 million tulips?

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, you need 9 million bulbs from Holland and so.

[Alison Stewart]

And there are none in Holland anymore.

[Nathan Crowley]

Yeah, but I mean, it's sort of like, how did that come about? I remember we were in meetings and it was like, we shouldn't do this digitally. And there was a push. It's like well, how else are you going to do it? Well, we could grow them. And the only reason I worked on Interstellar and we grew 500 acres of corn for the film. And so I. Which was nerve wracking, but I knew it could be done. So if I applied that experience to, to Wicked, I could then grow tulips. And then my location manager, Adam, is like, can you find me a farmer, a tulip farmer we can go and talk to? And so Mark, the tulip farmer was brilliant. He's saying, okay, we're going to have to buy 9 million. Well, actually I, I thought he said 1 million, which I thought was a lot, but I sort of misheard him because I showed him the kind of area we needed and we found a location to do it. And I said, I need to fill this amount of fields. And I thought he said a million. So I went back to the producers and said, we need to buy a million bulbs immediately from Holland for this. We need to write a check. And, and which they did. And then. But when, when I went back to see him, he said, yeah, I got to get those 9 million bulbs into the ground before the ground freezes. And I said, what? And anyway, so that's how 9 million came up. But really it was based on the size of the fields I needed to fill.

[Alison Stewart]

What went through your brain when you heard the word 9 million, when you thought it was 1 million?

[Nathan Crowley]

I got a bit worried because it's like, oh my God. I told everyone it was 1 million. The location manager, I said, do we tell them? Was. I think I told John Chu and he was so happy it was nine and not one. He was, he's a very excitable, brilliant man. So he was like, he's good.

[Alison Stewart]

Nine's great. Nine's the best.

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, sometime later I asked the farmer, Mark, I said, yeah, that was. You came to 9 million? He said, well, yeah, no, I, I thought we needed 12. And it kept on growing. It was very abstract, I guess, farming.

[Alison Stewart]

So my guest is Nathan Crowley. He's Oscar nominated for Wicked in production design. It's part of our big Picture series where you look at talent behind the camera. Let's talk about a little bit of a smaller scope. The dorm room between Elphaba and Glinda. It's so interesting. How did you telegraph that these two are going to be living together but. But clearly not in harmony.

[Nathan Crowley]

Well, so that was, that was a difficult set as well because we have, you know, a huge song number to do in that popular. And so we have to we had to make. It can't be a small dorm room. It needs to be part of shiz and needs the character needs some romantic character to. It needs some feminine qualities. So, you know, it was, it was a difficult start. So I knew that I had to make the room circular. It wasn't circular, it was elliptical at the end. But I knew if I made it circular, the camera wouldn't feel the restriction of the space. And we could frame up the two little sort of half moon pockets we made for their bed. I knew we could sort of make it feel small or big but not get bored of the space. And then if we put enough decoration in. So the. One of the. One of the one thing we do as designers, we go and we look at, look at places, not necessarily to shooting because we know we're going to build that, you're going to build that set, but to get inspiration and play out a scene in a real space and see how we feel about it. And the Brighton Pavilion, which is down on the south coast of England, I knew pretty well because I went into art school down there. And it was built by the Prince Regent, which is this sort of crazy Taj Mahal, sort of Chinese influence palace. I mean, it's the only piece of architecture, I think in England that is Ozzy. And so we stood in there and we went up to the sort of the crazy onion domes at the top. We got a little private tour and it's like, okay, the room needs to be elliptical. It's got to be in one of these domes. And that was the start of it. And then, and then we worked with the choreographer and John because they're, they're figuring out a huge dancing. So we have to work side by side. So we had a rehearsal stage for the dancers and then we had a, a rehearsal stage with a rough layout of what might be the set in plywood. And then, then we had the real stage. We're building the real set. And as the three sort of came together, we would adjust and manipulate the set to work for the action. Because in popular there's these trunks and there's hydraulics and those are all practical effects. And so you have to lift the set six feet off the ground on a rostrum. And you've got all this hydraulics underneath popping up clothes and racks and shoes and makeup. You know, it's all done from underneath. I mean, it's sort of a stage show within itself. So. So you need everyone to come together and having a sort of physical mock up of a set that you can change I think is essential in a musical.

[Alison Stewart]

That was my conversation with Oscar nominated production designer Nathan Crowley about his work on the film Wicked. Up next, we move from practical sets to practical effects with the substance makeup artist Pierre Olivier Persan. He tells us how he created Demi Moore's memorable transformations. Stay with us. Get the Angel Reese Special at McDonald's. Now, let's break it down. My favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese, crispy bacon, pickles, onions and a sesame seed bun, of course. And don't forget the fries and a drink. Sound good? I participate in restaurants for a limited time.

[Ira Flatow]

I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine, news you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship. Wnyc.

[Nathan Crowley]

Org.