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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
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You're listening to all of it on wnyc. I'm Alison Stewart. The Ryan Coogler vampire film Sinners was one of the highest grossing films of 2025. The horror movie was a critical and commercial smash success. A big part of the film's success lies on the shoulders of actor Wunmi Musaku, who took home a Gotham Award this year for her performance as Annie, a healer whose love goes beyond the limits of human form. Annie's spiritual wisdom allows her to see the vampires for what they are. And she's also the only one who knows how to protect those around her from the threat they pose. Wunmi Mossako joined me earlier this year to discuss her performance. Here's our conversation. Wumi Masako joins us now. Wumi, nice to meet you.
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A
Nice to meet you, too.
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B
So you were offered this role immediately after auditioning. You told a new art that had never happened to you before. What do you remember feeling in that moment?
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A
Oh, my goodness. It was so overwhelming. I had just had my chemistry read with Michael, and I walked out the door, and then I was, like, saying goodbye to everyone, like, nice to meet you. And Ryan just came out. He said, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I don't. I don't. The role's yours. I don't know why I would make you wait. The role's yours. And then. And then Michael kind of jumped out of the room, like, behind him, like, yay. It was so overwhelming and so fun and so lovely and like. Yeah, it was kind of. I keep saying that this whole experience has been kind of magical from beginning to end. And that was definitely one of those magical moments.
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B
Yeah, you're given the first seven. The first script, it was the seven minutes of this love scene that you have with Michael B. Jordan's character. What felt special to you about that particular scene?
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A
I mean, seven pages is. It's quite a lot in a script, but it felt so deep. It felt like I understood who they were. I felt like I understood their history, their love, the depth of their love, the breadth of their humanity and their fear, their beliefs, their differences, their grief and their hopes in seven pages is really, really quite a feat to achieve. And I got these seven pages not knowing what the film was about. So I thought this was like a love film, like a love story. And I was so excited about the possibilities. And then Ryan kind of spoke me through the rest of the film, and I was like, wow, talk about gender, like, genre bending. And, like, it was so, like, I was like, oh, I was sure this was going to be a love story. But. And it is.
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B
It is a love story, though.
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A
I think it's one of the greatest love stories, but it's also a horror. It's a musical. It's, it's everything.
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B
How is love central to the story of Sinners?
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A
I think love is central because the characters, they're so real, they're so whole. So you, you understand in, with all of them, who they love, how they love, why they love and what they love and the community, the love within the community, the love of the blues, the love of, like, a space that is theirs and it's that they're freeing. The love of, like, parents and children and that loyalty, the love of your, your ancestry, the love of, of, of needing, not just wanting, but needing to live your life in its purpose and with its, with ferocity and, and truth. And whether that's with your partner, if that's your, your, your desire, or whether it's your, your gift, whether it's your, your gift of like. For the character of Sammy music, love is absolutely the heartbeat and the bloodline and the rhythm through and the flesh of this whole movie.
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B
When we meet Annie, where is she in her life? What's important to her?
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A
She is. You meet Annie when Smoke, her other half, has returned after seven years away. They have lost a child and they are reconnected seven years after that loss. And there's something about their meeting where I feel like she knew. She's always known he was coming back. She always knew that these seven years were part of his grieving process and what he needed to do in order to keep living, you know, after such great loss. And I just, I feel like there's just this unsaid, unspoken kind of knowingness that they're, that they just need to be honest with each other and then we can be, we can move through this world together again. And that's all she requires of him, is honesty. And, and then they're locked back in. They are soul tied. Yeah, her, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, I, I, she has, has given him this, like, mojo bag years ago. And I imagine it's something that she gave to him when she first fell in love with him. And I feel like she poured all of her power into this mojo bag. And that's why it, that's why it works, you know?
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B
They do have an argument though, in the beginning about accepting, like, plantation currency in her store, and she, she refuses it the blood money.
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She grew up, calls it, what does.
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B
This tell us about their interaction?
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That they serve two very different gods. You know, he is all about power and money and, and, and, and, and, and like the kind of earthly signs of success and, and, and, and capitalism and, and, and survival. And she is rooted in regardless of the world that they live in. She's rooted in that same space because of her child. She's rooted in that space because of her beliefs and, and, and her people. And so if this is the currency that her people and her community are using, then that's all that matters because she's not going anywhere else. This is where she belongs until, until she doesn't belong there anymore.
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B
You know, she calls Smoke by his name, Elijah. How are Smoke and Elijah different to Annie? Or maybe they're not.
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A
I like to describe Smoke as his smoke and mirrors. It's his representative, how he wants the world, needs the world to see him and interact with him. And Elijah is his core. It's his true form, vulnerable self. It's everything that he's too scared to show the world. And so the only person, the only people who know Elijah a stack his, his brother Elias and Annie, you know, that's that they're the only two people he can truly be Elijah with. And so they're different, they're different to her, but she understands the need for smoke. It's Elijah. Smoke is Elijah's shield and protection.
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B
My guest is woman Saku. We are talking about sinners. She plays the role of Annie. Let's get down to business. Annie is a healer. It's important to what she does. It's important to who she is. Did you know much about healing when you went to this role? No.
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No, I didn't know anything about hoodoo and the practice of it, and I didn't know anything about the priestesses and, and their work, and their, their work in the community and, and, and their, the keystone of that knowledge being a part of our survival as, as the diaspora. I, I, it, I, I learned that it was a derivative of ifa, which is a Yoruba traditional indigenous religion. And I'm a Yoruba woman. I was born there, but raised in the uk and so for me it was, it was like this opening up of my, my ancestry, my, my survival, my, my why I'm here. And, and you know, a big part of the film is your ancestry and, and your place in, you know, you know, we talk about like future ancestors as well. Like you are, you will be a future ancestor. And so kind of learning about efam kind of grounded me in a way in, in because I found a part, part of myself that I didn't know existed within my research of Annie. And that kind of has given me some kind of more roots for that role of the future ancestor, you know, that I will one day take.
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B
This sounds like a role that blew.
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A
Your mind a little bit. It did. It really did. It changed me. Yeah. Me on a very spiritual and cellular level, inspired me as an artist. Like the kind of work what Ryan has created, that kind of quality of writing and that research and that love of, of. Of cultures and our ancestry and our practices and our beliefs and our, you know, our conflicts. Just being able to. Someone being able to write all of that, like in one, you know, two hour film, like, it's. It blows my mind. But then, you know, learning Annie, trying to fill up the space that Annie takes, I kind of felt like, powerful. It was, it was feeding me, like reminding me of my own power and, and like to tap into it. And as. As a mother as well. It was my first job back as after having my daughter. And so I just felt really inspired and hopeful and grateful and yeah, I always say it felt magical. And it feels like that's not quite the right word because it feels like a really easy word to say, but it, it really, truly felt magical and transformational.
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B
What is something that you have not been asked about Annie? You've done a ton of press. It's always been interesting. But something that you've wanted to say about her?
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A
You know, I read that scene and I desperately wanted to be. To work with Ryan on whatever he was working on. And I really felt, and I said it to him like on the first day of the read through, I was like, I feel like Annie's gonna change my life. I think she's going to change my life. Not on a. On a acting like career, but on such a. On a spiritual path. And I really feel like she has. I feel like even like I say, I've been doing Yoruba lessons for five years and it's fine. I'm finally six months later able to like do my whole class in Yoruba. The language has never stuck with me before. And I think there's just something with what clicked for me. So many things clicked for me beyond. I can't even explain all of it, but it just opened up a part of me. And now I speak. I speak. I want to say I speak Yoruba. I'm gonna say it because I feel scared to say it because I have to speak it very slowly and people have to speak very slowly. But I, in time, I just know that this language is going to stick. I just know it. And that's a big change for me because you, you, you. You move to another country and this is a topic that's in, in, in the film too. You move to another country for whatever reason, whether you're seeking asylum or my, you know, my parents were, were students in the uk and you sacrifice so much of your culture and your. And you lose so much. There's so much about being a Yoruba woman. There's so many conversations I've never really had, like, even with my grandmother, because I've always needed an interpreter. And I miss like, nuances about her, you know, her personality. And sometimes people can't be bothered to translate for you. And I just feel like Annie is the beginning of that reclaiming and home. Home going and reconnectedness and the spiritual awakening. Just felt like that was always gonna be the, the. Her purpose in my life, you know? Yeah.
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That was my conversation with actor Wumi Moussaku for her role as Annie in the new movie Sinners. You can stream the film now on hbo.
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Max.
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Up next, a love story set in New York, directed by Bing Lu and starring Fred Heckinger. They join me to discuss preparation for the next life. That is after a quick break. This is all of it.
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Nice.
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D
Hey, girl, what's happening? Is that your antiperspirant?
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Uh, yeah.
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D
Let me see that can. Aluminum butane. I cannot pronounce that. You have to switch to native deodorant. Native's simple formula has only clean ingredients. It gives you effective 72 hour odor protection with no hydrocarbon propellants. Wow, this smells heavenly clean. Effective 72 hour odor protection isn't a myth.
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It's native.