How Jeff Tweedy finds joy in troubled times

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Songs Considered – How Jeff Tweedy Finds Joy in Troubled Times

Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Robin Hilton (NPR)
Guest: Jeff Tweedy (Wilco)
Focus: Jeff Tweedy’s new solo album, "Twilight Override," the meaning behind its songs, grappling with life’s fragility, joy through music, and the creative process.

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode of All Songs Considered, host Robin Hilton sits down with Jeff Tweedy of Wilco to explore his ambitious new solo release, Twilight Override: a triple album spanning two hours and created with his sons and close friends. The conversation moves through themes of life’s miracles and uncertainties, the tension of light and dark in art, personal history, the joy of simple moments, confronting pain, and how Tweedy uses music to find joy and connection in challenging times.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Intent and Ambition Behind "Twilight Override" (00:18–02:41)

• Tweedy’s latest work is described by Hilton as “an attempt to overwhelm an overwhelming world” (00:18), intentionally focusing on the miracle and fragility of life, memories of youth, and the beauty of togetherness.
• The album was a family affair, recorded with his sons and friends as a counterbalance to negativity and heaviness in the world.

“It’s Jeff Tweedy’s way of pushing back against everything that feels bad about the world right now, and he’s doing it in the only way that he knows how, and that’s with music.”
— Robin Hilton (00:18)

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2. Opening Track: “One Tiny Flower” – Exploring Meanings and Misreadings (02:41–08:45)

• Discussion of the Song’s Ambiguity:
  Hilton initially interprets the song as a moment of simple joy, but Tweedy reveals a much darker inspiration: the idea that someone, trying to avoid stepping on a flower, could have a tragic fall.

“Somebody somewhere must have jumped over a tiny flower…and fallen to their death... This impulse to like, preserve some, like, insignificant to us life…ends up ending someone’s life.”
— Jeff Tweedy (03:54)

• The Light/Dark Juxtaposition:
  Tweedy reflects on the beauty at the intersection of light and dark, referencing Leonard Cohen:

  “That’s how the light gets in.” (06:57)
  He sees twilight as a metaphor:
  “That point where light and dark meet, that’s what we all think of as beauty… That’s where the beauty lives, is in that space that’s blurry and leaks into each other.” (07:27)

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3. On Fragility, Loss, and Why We Avoid These Topics (08:45–12:23)

• Tweedy discusses how themes of impermanence and loss have always preoccupied him, shaped by a childhood in an unpredictable, alcoholic household.
• He emphasizes the difficulty, but necessity, of discussing mortality—seeing it as motivation to engage more fully with life.

“It’s a reminder to do stuff. It’s a reminder to make an effort and to not sit around and be angry.”
— Jeff Tweedy (10:24)

• Memorable advice from his mother:

“Don’t borrow that sadness from tomorrow, you know, don’t borrow that pain when you don’t…it’s not yours yet.”
— Jeff Tweedy (11:41)

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4. Reflecting on Youth — “Parking Lot” and the Unchanging Self (12:57–16:24)

• Creative Process:
  Tweedy shares his discomfort with hearing himself speak-singing on “Parking Lot,” but sees it as fitting for the poem’s vulnerability.
• Link to the Past:
  Both host and guest talk about the surprise of aging without feeling changed inside.

“I completely feel like I’m the same person. One of the things that causes anxiety sometimes is just waking up and realizing I’m 58 years old, because I do not feel like that.”
— Jeff Tweedy (15:30)

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5. On Sensitivity and Childhood Sadness – “KC Rain” (18:03–19:05)

• Tweedy acknowledges embracing his younger, sensitive self. The lyric "I was born a little sad" encapsulates much of the album’s emotional core.

“There’s a lot of songs on this record where I think, well, I could have just summed the triple record up into that one line. And one of the lines that comes up sometimes is, I was born a little sad.”
— Jeff Tweedy (18:50)

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6. Alternate Lives and the Role of Chance (19:05–21:34)

• Themes of longing, alternative paths, and cosmic luck infuse many songs.
• Tweedy muses on what his life would have looked like had he not pursued music, expressing empathy for his “alternative selves.”

“Some of it is just cosmic luck, you know…I don’t think I’m better than them. I think that if I had not had this certain twists and turns… I’d be dreaming about being a guy that had found a different thing, you know.”
— Jeff Tweedy (19:31)

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7. Grief and Art — “New Orleans” and Remembering Steve Albini (23:05–28:12)

• Tweedy recounts recording the emotionally charged guitar parts of "New Orleans" on the day Steve Albini died, giving the song personal depth and an association with collective grief.

“That music…the intention was pure enough to absorb that emotion and reflect it in a kind and open way.”
— Jeff Tweedy (28:12)

• Hilton is moved to tears, relating the song to the bittersweet passage of time with his own children.

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8. Writing “Sideways” About the State of the World (28:46–31:28)

• Tweedy references sneaking a direct cultural observation into “New Orleans”:

“I’m afraid of the suede, suede boots and snakeskin walking in.” (28:46)

• On his lyric style:

“It’s the same thing that happens when you look at a cloud…our brains start to see faces and animals...And that’s the way I think about these lyrics.”
— Jeff Tweedy (30:14)

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9. The Meaning and Creation of “Feel Free” (32:07–36:12)

• The phrase “feel free” is described as ambiguous: potentially liberating or dismissive.
• Tweedy wrote many verses, performing the ones that resonated most. The repetitive, almost meditative quality builds tension and eventual release.

“It seemed like the song made sense unless there was a lot of them…It’s not like that sounds really like a, like giving myself a backhanded compliment or something. Yeah, it’s a relief when that song’s over. But there is some…it’s a release, you know, not necessarily a relief.”
— Jeff Tweedy (35:17)

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10. Celebrating Small Joys — “Stray Cats of Spain” (37:04–41:46)

• Based on a real-life experience seeing The Stray Cats in Spain—the first band Tweedy ever saw live—the song celebrates community, belonging, and circularity in life.
• Tweedy shares a favorite lyric:

“It’s not what you think unless it’s Hot Pink.” (40:20)

• Authentic fan interaction: Slim Jim Phantom (Stray Cats’ drummer) commented positively about the tribute.

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11. Closing Thoughts — “Enough” and the Paradox of Wanting More (42:10–45:33)

• The song "Enough" explores the concept of satisfaction and the human tendency to always want more, but flips it to an affirmation of life, in spite of (and because of) its pain.

“It’s really sad and really painful, and I can’t get enough of it. This life, you know, life is full.”
— Jeff Tweedy (43:25)

• Tweedy considers the will to live amid suffering as “extremely hopeful and powerful.”

“Even with the travail, this is what I want. I want more of it. I want this life. I want to be here.”
— Jeff Tweedy (44:21)

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Notable Quotes

• On Artistic Dualities:
  “That point where light and dark meet, that’s what we all think of as beauty.”—Jeff Tweedy (07:27)
• On Mortality and Motivation:
  “It’s a reminder to do stuff. It’s a reminder to make an effort and to not sit around and be angry.”—Jeff Tweedy (10:24)
• On Artistic Process:
  “You can tell me about a song. You can explain what it means to you. But you can’t make me hear it without ever having heard it.”—Jeff Tweedy (31:59)
• On the Value of Life:
  “Even with the travail, this is what I want. I want more of it. I want this life. I want to be here.”—Jeff Tweedy (44:21)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:18–02:41 — Introduction to the album and themes
• 03:23–06:28 — Deep dive: "One Tiny Flower"
• 08:45–12:23 — Fragility of life, family, and discussing mortality
• 12:57–16:24 — "Parking Lot," youth, and aging
• 18:03–19:05 — "KC Rain" and lifelong sensitivity
• 19:05–21:34 — Alternate lives, cosmic luck, creative aspiration
• 23:05–28:12 — "New Orleans," grief, and the day Steve Albini died
• 28:46–31:28 — Lyric writing, language, and meaning
• 32:07–36:12 — "Feel Free" — Manifesto or dismissal?
• 37:04–41:46 — Joy and nostalgia in "Stray Cats of Spain"
• 42:10–45:33 — "Enough" and the fullness of life

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Tone & Takeaways

This episode balances Tweedy’s understated, wry humor with honest reflections on grief, art, creativity, and savoring joy amidst uncertainty. The tone is intimate, thoughtful, and occasionally profound—filled with empathy but never pretentious.

For listeners and newcomers alike, this conversation offers much more than an album-by-album breakdown. It’s a meditation on why we make art, why we persevere, and how the little moments—all our “tiny flowers”—matter most.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Robin Hilton]

It's all songs Considered from NPR Music. I'm Robin Hilton, and I'm talking this week with Jeff Tweedy. Jeff Tweedy of the band Wilco about what I think is an incredible new solo album he's got called Twilight Overrun. This new solo album from Jeff Tweedy, Twilight Override. It's a ton of music. It's a triple album, about two hours worth of songs, and they're all about essentially, the miracle of life, about how fragile life can be, about the vastness of time, about all the ways our lives in the world would be different if we just made different choices. He reflects on his childhood a lot, but more than all of that, it's an album about simple pleasures, especially the simple joy of just being together. Jeff Tweedy recorded Twilight Override with his two sons, Spencer and Sammy, and a group of close friends. This whole project is very intentional. It's Jeff Tweedy's way of pushing back against everything that feels bad about the world right now, and he's doing it in the only way that he knows how, and that's with music. In fact, he says, Twilight Override is his attempt to overwhelm an overwhelming world and overwhelm that world with songs that help him let go of the heaviness in his life and. And open his heart to everyone. And that's true even when some of the themes and stories in these songs are painful. There's so much music, so many ideas across this album. It's really hard to know where to start. So when I sat down with Jeff to talk about it, we decided to just start at the beginning with the opening cut to the album. It's a song called One Tiny Flower.

[Song Lyrics]

The grass is growing all over town from the cracks in the sidewalks where the shops shut down One tiny flower I'm jumping over One tiny flower I'm jumping over One tiny flower I'm jumping over One tiny flower I'm jumping over.

[Robin Hilton]

Tell me what's going on in this song, because I think I maybe misread it when I first played it on the show, when it came out as a single.

[Jeff Tweedy]

How did you misread it? I mean, I don't know if that's possible.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, okay, so I thought it was just about the simple joy of kind of being in your own skin and walking through the world and skipping over a flower that's grown out of a crack in the sidewalk and nothing bad happens.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Uh oh.

[Robin Hilton]

But maybe that's not exactly what's happening.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Well, it's a pretty improvised piece of music and initially was a poem set to a piece of music that was flexible enough for us to not play it the same each time we tried to play it. So we played it like three or four times. Each one was pretty different. I think that ends up being an edit of like one or two performances. But the overall poem was directed at the notion. And this is going to blow your mind because it sounds like it's the opposite of what you took out of it. Somebody somewhere must have jumped over a tiny flower, like we have the impulse to do sometimes, and fallen to their death.

[Robin Hilton]

Right.

[Jeff Tweedy]

And I thought that would be. It seems like it's inevitable that that has. If it hasn't happened, it will happen, but I'm sure it's happened, which is a crazy thing to think about. This impulse to like, preserve some, like, insignificant to us life most of the time, ends up ending someone's life. And so the record kind of, to me, started with this guy laying on the ground watching the car pull up and block out the sun as he's basically losing consciousness. And then the rest of the record set up the rest of the record to me because I thought that the rest of the record is just kind of life flashing before one's eyes or something, you know, except that the last disc is more focused on the future.

[Robin Hilton]

You know, so this isn't explicitly in these lyrics. Is it more communicated in the music when the music gets a little more jagged and. Or is it just the idea you had in mind?

[Jeff Tweedy]

I. I did. I mean, it's like a lot of poetry. I know you can't see what's in my head, but I do think it's communicated in the words too skeleton under my. You know, it's like the imagery gets darker. He says, I know I'm not the only one. Like, he's like, kind of consoling himself that he's not the only one that's fallen over. I don't know. I don't know. It's just sort of funny. It's not like super serious. And yeah, it didn't have to be explicit that in a way I maybe shouldn't even be telling you this because I think it's. I should have maybe just let you have your. Your own imagery and your own idea of where the song was gonna take you, you know?

[Robin Hilton]

Well, it was really beautiful moment for me, and it's kind of ruined.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah, sorry about that.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah, no, no, it's still great. I mean, that's something. And we can talk more about this when we get to some of the other songs. I mean, that's something that I feel is always in your music. The contrast of sort of the light and dark, the good and bad in life, there always seems to be in your twilight. Yeah, the twilight. Or, you know, what's the Leonard Cohen line about cracks being the.

[Jeff Tweedy]

That's how the light gets in.

[Robin Hilton]

That's how the light gets in. When I listen to your music, I very often think the exact opposite. It's where the darkness gets in. Because a song will seem like it's shimmering and bright and everything's happy. A guy's just skipping over a flower.

[Jeff Tweedy]

But I did.

[Robin Hilton]

I do remember when I was talking about this song on the show, that the person was on the show with me. We both agreed there's something going on here. Like, there's something's a little off. And that's where the darkness is creeping in through the cracks.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Right. Well, I mean, if you look at the horizon, it sunset or daybreak, that point where light and dark meet, that's what we all think of as beauty. That's where the beauty lives, is in that space that's blurry and leaks into each other. There seems to be a clear line. And just above it there's this like, sort of mysterious array of colors. And we're drawn to it. I mean, humans are drawn to looking at that and thinking about it. It's symbolic in ways that we don't tend to even comprehend most of the time. But to me, it's just like a good example of the real world provides, nature provides of why those two things are so beautiful next to each other.

[Robin Hilton]

To me, all the colors that come out in that moment when it seems.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Like the day's gone, and they seem to be unpredictable and different on a daily basis, if you're paying attention to them.

[Robin Hilton]

Another theme, obviously, that comes out in this song is just the tenuous, the fragility of life. Is that something you find yourself thinking more about as you get older?

[Jeff Tweedy]

I think I started out thinking about that. I think I've had an anxiety about losing people at a very young age. It's an intense thing growing up in a house with an alcoholic. And I think not to get too into, like. I'm mining my trauma for, like. For art or whatever. I just think that that's just a natural obsession because the rug's kind of always being pulled out from under you, and you kind of tend to cling to the things that you can find that are stable, like the person that's stable. And in my case, it was my mother, you know, and, like, so you kind of have this knowledge that, oh, man, I don't know. What if this wasn't the way it is? And once you figure out that that's going to happen someday, it becomes your worst fear. And I've lived through my worst fear. Now, I don't, you know, I don't have parents, but. But I. I do think that it's a natural thing to obsess about. It's. I'm not the first artist or musician or any. You know, it's just I. Or a human being walking around thinking about this stuff. I guess what I'm curious about is why it's so hard for us to talk about. It just seems like it's a bummer to talk about.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah.

[Jeff Tweedy]

And. And I don't know why that is, because to me, it's a reminder to do stuff. It's a reminder to. To make an effort and to not sit around and be angry.

[Robin Hilton]

You know, you have come to the right place, Jeff. But, yeah, it makes. Getting it out there, it makes you. I like how you put it better than how I've put it, which I just say, it just makes me appreciate everything more.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah. And I'm also, you know, I'm living with a woman that has gone through tons and tons of cancer treatment. She's doing well, but, you know, there's like. It's not been something that we haven't had to think about quite a bit, and the scares that come with, you know, monthly scans and all kinds of stuff. It's just been a part of my life for a pretty long time, that reality, not just the contemplation of it, but, you know, this sort of futile attempt to prepare yourself for something that's inevitable, but you just don't want to talk about it like that.

[Robin Hilton]

You know, it's hard not to be afraid all the time.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah. You know, the weird thing is, my mother was. She never graduated high school. And I've talked about her a fair amount over the years when I get asked about things, but she had some deep intelligence, you know, and she has so many things that have still stuck with me that she said that she really got. And she said, you're Bar. You know, when you say you're worried about something, that what's going to happen or Might happen. She said, well, don't borrow that sadness from tomorrow, you know, don't borrow that pain when you don't. It's not yours yet.

[Robin Hilton]

Mine always said, don't be sad it's over. Be glad it happened.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Right? Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, you obviously do a lot of reflecting on youth and childhood and that whole time in your life. I want to play the song Parking Lot.

[Song Lyrics]

There's a version of me that hangs.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Out in parking lots in my brain or my subconscious, whatever. He has a car, the hood has popped Talking to some other me's I don't recognize Gathered around staring down at the engine block My older me's. But this guy, this show off, showing off kind of rules.

[Robin Hilton]

The speak. Singing on this really, really threw me. I was not expecting this.

[Jeff Tweedy]

I couldn't figure out a way to sing this poem. I couldn't really figure out a way to put it to music until I came up with this piece of music. And then, I don't know, at some point it just struck me that I should just try and read this poem over this piece of music. And I did. I did it on acoustic guitar on my phone. And it seemed to work. It seemed to be kind of almost startling to me to, to have to listen to my speaking voice. I've grown to actually love listening to myself sing. It's like a weird. It's a weird thing. It's like I, I, I love making records and I love, I love that I've learned how to get. I mean, I feel like I'm still trying to get better. And I. And I've noticed some improvement over 30 years, and I enjoy hearing that improvement. And I love that I can use my voice in certain ways that feel like they communicate. But speaking like, I'll never listen to this. This would drive me crazy. Like, I didn't. You know, audiobooks are the worst thing ever happened to me, you know, when I've written books and then I have never had to read them. So I just kept. So I just, I thought that that discomfort was something that would actually enhance those words. And that lyric.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, I like what you say, and I like the place it takes me and the images it conjures. You know, thematically, it reminds me of what is probably my favorite WOCO song. And that's Normal American Kids from Schmilco, which is it kind of minds that same period of your life, you know, I mean, that's a very rich period to mine.

[Jeff Tweedy]

I feel. I think about young little Jeff all the time, you know, the child Jeff. I Feel very connected to that kid. I think that as an artist, that's kind of your goal, I think, is to be conversant with this less formed version of yourself, less opinionated version of yourself, this more creative version of yourself, this sort of emotional sponge taking the world in, not knowing anything. And I completely feel like I'm the same person. I don't. One of the things that causes anxiety sometimes is just waking up and realizing I'm 58 years old, because I do not feel like that. I think most people that as they. They age, they. They have a similar sensation. It's like, wait, what? You know, when. When did this happen? How did this happen?

[Robin Hilton]

I'm the same age, you know, and I think. I think so am I going to. If I'm lucky enough, am I going to wake up at 85.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

And think, oh, I just. I thought I'd feel older.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah, I think so. I think until, you know, I would say until your body starts giving out, but I have two new hips, you know.

[Robin Hilton]

You're half robot now.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

When you look back at the time, do you romanticize that period, or is it just like a morass of regret or both or.

[Jeff Tweedy]

No, it's not regret. It's just really curious. I don't know how to describe it. I know that that guy, that little kid, was pretty intense and sad and struggling to connect with friends, struggling to make sense of a lot of things, but in a lot of ways, still kind of had some things figured out. I don't know. It's not a great thing to talk about because I think it's probably pretty normal. You know, it was really sensitive, a really sensitive kid. And it's obvious that I've retained a lot of that sensitivity.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, it makes me think of the song KC Rain.

[Song Lyrics]

I was born a little sad Never knew what I had mom and dad let it slide no wonder I never satisfied I sweated, I swooned I howl at the moon Tied myself to the tus no wonder I never satisfied.

[Jeff Tweedy]

There's a lot of songs on this record where I think, well, I could have just summed the triple record up into that one line. And one of the lines that comes up sometimes is, I was born a little sad.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, I asked you about, like, whether or not you think about your childhood with any kind of regret or whatever, because I think that one of the themes that comes up on the record is the idea of the different lives that you could have lived with different choices or maybe if things had turned out differently, maybe the maybe the idea of do overs, it's in parking lot. It's caught up in the past and it comes up in other places, like on KC ramp.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah. Some of it is just cosmic luck, you know. And I think about my hometown a lot also because I left and I grew up thinking that people don't leave. And I grew up with a prevailing attitude that if you leave, you think you're better than others. And that was stultifying, I think, for a lot of people and effective at limiting people's dreams and their horizons. And then I also think I'm trying to make peace with that because I don't think I'm better than that. I don't think I'm better than them. I think that if I had not had this certain twists and turns of cosmic luck that we're talking about, I'm dreaming about being a guy that had found a different thing, you know, and would be engaged in his passion and sharing it with somebody else. Like. Like the guy or that I'm talking about are the alternative me's in that song I'm singing or talking about them with empathy or with like, you know, sort of admiration even, I think.

[Robin Hilton]

On parking lot, you mean?

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

Do you ever think about what your life would have turned out like had you stayed?

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah, I mean, that's basically kind of. I think that that's the broader context is what would it look like without music, without this bizarre to me circumstance where I actually learned how to play guitar? You know, I don't remember doing that. I have very little memory about how that happened. I know that I wanted to. I know there was a desire. I know that there was a aspiration and even a lie that I knew how to before that happened. But the lie seemed to have manifested itself without me paying attention.

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[Robin Hilton]

Can I tell you what my favorite song on the album is?

[Jeff Tweedy]

Sure. But my response is going to be, what's wrong with the other ones?

[Robin Hilton]

What, you don't like the blue tie? New Orleans. New Orleans.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

New Orleans is my favorite song.

[Song Lyrics]

A tree, all four limbs For a.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Parade.

[Song Lyrics]

In New Orleans I'd hold her in a gold chair on my shoulders like a queen.

[Robin Hilton]

The song makes me cry.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Oh, thank you. Yeah, it.

[Robin Hilton]

It kind of wrecks me. And when I started digging into the lyrics, I couldn't figure out why.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Well, I could tell you something that makes me cry about it. And it's like, I don't know if this isn't. I don't know. The day that I recorded the guitars that are in the middle of that song, which I feel like are very emotional and very broken and chaotic and beautiful, I just feel like I stumbled upon this sound. I went for. I was looking for this sound, and I got closer to what was in my head than I expected it to get. And we ended up recording layers of this sort of fractured guitar that did most of the emotional heavy lifting. I thought in the song there's this underlying sort of sadness and fear, but, you know. But it's about a parade in New Orleans, you know. But the day that I recorded those, my friend Steve Albini died that evening, and we were at the hospital with his wife. And till about four in the morning, my wife and I came home and Sammy was at home with us. And my kids grew up with Steve and being around Steve. And so Sammy was up wanting to know what had happened. And so we sat up and we talked a little bit and cried. And then I was having a tough time processing this. I still am, honestly, because he didn't seem like somebody that could die. And in a lot of ways, he couldn't. He can't. Because I already had a version of him in my, you know, my mind before I even met him. So there was my friend, but there's also this larger than, you know, life version. But so we talked for a little while and he was crying. I was feeling fairly numb and stoic. And then Sammy asked what I had Done that day on the record. Because we've all been making this record together, my children. And we listened to that, and he hadn't heard it yet. And it was extremely emotional. We both cried a lot. It was like. It was. It had. It unlocked something that allowed a certain amount of grief to pour out. I don't really know. I don't know why it had such a profound effect, but it made me feel like there was something more meaningful about that part and would always be more meaningful to me about that part going forward, because it would always remind me of that night. And it does. But it wasn't put there intentionally, you know, it's just that the music of. Was. The intention of the music was pure enough to absorb that emotion and reflect it in a kind and open way.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, that's really interesting, because there was something in the song that made me think about my kids and how fast time passes, how short our time is here and with our kids. I mean, and maybe this is true, you know, across much of the album, but I. I feel a lot of love and wonder and gratitude in the song New Orleans. Also, a sense, though, that there's just kind of something coming for you. Go ahead. Yeah.

[Jeff Tweedy]

The song also has one of the only sort of sideways direct references, at least to me, of the current climate. And at the very last thing that is like, I'm afraid of the suede, Suede boots and snakeskin walking in.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah, I did catch that.

[Jeff Tweedy]

You know, there's just this. This sense that there are people walking amongst. Amongst us that we don't really know how to identify but feel somehow more dangerous than they should be.

[Robin Hilton]

You talk about writing around something or not coming at it too directly. I think you said sideways about that song, but that's something that. I think you've always done really well with your lyrics, that you never come at anything too directly. I mean, what's the opening line? I trade all my four limbs for a parade in New Orleans. Yeah. And it makes me think of an assumption I've always had about you, and maybe you can finally correct this assumption or confirm it, which is, I sometimes listen to your stuff, and I think he just likes the way these words sound together. Like, I'm an American aquarium drinker. I Assassin down the Avenue is maybe one of the most brilliant lyrics ever written. And I just like the way all those words sound together. I'm not even sure what they mean.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Well, yes, I think it's hard to put two words next to each other without them conjuring some meaning. I think that the way language works and the way our minds work, we don't like things not making sense. And so it's the same thing that happens when you look at a cloud. It doesn't make sense. So our brains start to see faces and animals and attribute shapes to it that maybe one person sees and the next person doesn't see it, but it's there. And that's the way I think about these lyrics. I think eyes do see something in them. It's not just that the language sounds good to me, but because the language sounds good to me, something else appears. And I don't know how to tell you what that is, because it only appears when those words are sung or like when you hear them. So it's a conjuring of some sort. You know, it's just. Which is beautiful that that can happen or that it works that way. Poetry, language, we can see things that were not written explicitly. That's the best stuff.

[Robin Hilton]

And why art like this works when just straight up trying to talk with.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Somebody doesn't, because it's a communication on a different plane of communication. We need information we share information we share, feelings we share. We express things as best we can. And then there's a whole other world of things that we cannot express any other way. And that's why you can't just tell somebody a song.

[Robin Hilton]

I'm going to tell you a song.

[Jeff Tweedy]

You can tell me about a song. You can explain what it means to you. But you can't make me hear it without ever having heard it. I am.

[Robin Hilton]

Let's talk about the song. Feel free.

[Song Lyrics]

Feel free get on the floor and dream Cutting pictures out of a magazine Feel free, feel free Plant yourself like a seed and take your time being buried Feel free, feel free Carry a torch in the street say you're full when we know you're empty.

[Robin Hilton]

Feel free It's kind of epic, and it feels like a manifesto.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah. I was fascinated with the phrase feel free. You know, like more in a negative sense, you know, like, oh, you want to do that? Well, feel free to ruin your life, you know. You know, it seemed like it was a kind of an interesting phrase that was a little bit of a Rorschach test, you know, when you just looked at it on the page, which. Which comes to you first, this invitation to liberate yourself or a dismissive comment regarding someone else's attempt to liberate themselves, you know.

[Robin Hilton]

Right.

[Jeff Tweedy]

And so that alone probably would have steered me towards trying to write a song around that phrase.

[Song Lyrics]

Feel free.

[Jeff Tweedy]

But inevitably what ended up happening is I came up with a poetic form that was appealing to me and just like, feel free. Rhyming couplet. Feel free. And it was really satisfying to write verses like that. And so I wrote tons and tons of them. And I basically sang the ones that ended up meaning the most to me off of pages and pages of them that were in front of me. Some of them I felt embarrassed about. Some of them I wanted to keep. Some of them I thought we would edit out later and none of those things happen, you know, like, basically ended up keeping. Even the one about kicking a ball at a tree to retrieve your Frisbee, you know, like, which is. I was like, ah, that's gotta go. And my kids are like, no, no, no, that. That's essential. But it didn't seem like the song made sense unless there was a lot of them, you know, and it didn't seem like the punchline of the song. You know, sing a song that never ends. It seems like the more verses we put in that song, the more powerful that line ended up feeling. Because you do get kind of lulled into this, like, live. We've played it live, and I've played it live solo a few times. And people always laugh when I sing that line because the tension of it being this, like, kind of repetitive thing for a good six or seven minutes in a room, it's a relief. It's. It's like. It's not like that sounds really like a, like giving myself a backhanded compliment or something. Yeah, it's a relief when that song's over. But there is some. It's a release, you know, not necessarily a relief. There's a release of that tension and it's. It's satisfying.

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[Robin Hilton]

I want to talk about Stray cats of Spain.

[Song Lyrics]

Oh, what a beautiful day.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Following.

[Song Lyrics]

The mosaic at an angle from where we stayed the Stray Cats are playing in Spain oh, what a beautiful scene all the time and Prince set free I believe they believe it's not what you think unless it's hot pink.

[Robin Hilton]

I like this one because it seems to capture a moment where you realize that life, even in its smallest, maybe even throwaway moments, that it's still pretty amazing.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah, sure. You know, it's a real story. It's definitely one of the more direct, at least to me, songs written about a specific thing, you know. Stray Cats were the first band I ever saw live. Oh, wow. In a rock club. Yeah, in small rock club. It was before they were a big, big act. So Wilco's on Tour in 2019 in Spain. We're playing a festival. We have a day off day before the festival. Festival's going on right down the street from our hotel. So I walk over there, you know, because we have passes and the Stray Cats are headlining the stage we're going to be playing on. So as I'm walking there, before I even knew the Stray Cats were playing, I was just marveling at all of the rockabilly people that were around me. What's going on? What's going on? It's like everybody's like dressed up in their tiger prints and their leather jackets and their pompadours and poodle skirts and they're all these sort of middle aged Spanish people that are fully immersed in this thing. They're like the guys in the parking lot, you know, in the other song, you know, like, it's just like there's this joyous sort of out of step with like a mainstream culture in a subculture that's sort of benign and loving. You get the real sense that there's a positivity to it. There's a belonging to this, there's a community. And then I get to be immersed in that and also have this full circle moment watching the Stray Cats play. Basically the same set I saw them play 30 years earlier or however long ago. It was incredible.

[Robin Hilton]

And so it takes.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah, and it made me really. It made me really happy. It made me. It just seemed very, very poignant, very beautiful. And that song also contains one of the lyrics that I would use to sum up a triple record. This triple record. If I didn't make a triple record, and that is. It's not what you think unless it's Hot Pink.

[Robin Hilton]

Why? Why that?

[Jeff Tweedy]

I don't know. I just think. I think that that's a key to life, you know, I think that there's a There's just an excitement to that that. I don't know. I don't know why it explains the record. I just think it's like. I just like it. And I just think that it somehow gets at the core of what the record should be about is what else? One other interesting thing, Interesting thing about that song is, like, that moment happened. I wrote the song. We put the song out as one of the, like, early tracks or, you know, that people can listen to off the Record, and went up on Instagram, social media, and Slim Jim Phantom, the drummer for the Stray Cats, commented, wow. And said, you know, something like, go get him, Jeff, you know, or, you know, rock on. Or, like, love with some hearts and stuff. And he's like, God, that made my day. You know, that's like the sweetest thing ever.

[Robin Hilton]

Obviously, so many songs that we could keep talking about, but let's just jump to the one that you close with the song Enough.

[Song Lyrics]

Has it ever been Enough has it ever been okay? Have you ever felt full at the.

[Jeff Tweedy]

End of the day?

[Song Lyrics]

Is it high? High die?

[Jeff Tweedy]

Is it high?

[Robin Hilton]

You mentioned how so much of this record is maybe kind of a Rorschach test, which I thought was interesting, because Enough was another one of those songs on the record that I took one way. And I think maybe you meant another way.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Well, how did you take it?

[Robin Hilton]

Well, this is the word enough. And the idea of enough is something I think about a lot because in some ways, I see it as the root of all our problems, that it doesn't have to be. It could be a good thing, could be a wonderful thing. But the drive to always want more and never have enough can lead to a lot of really awful. And so that was where I was at when I hit play on the song. But then after listening to it, I started thinking about it differently.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Yeah, greed is the. Is the one thing that we don't talk about hardly at all in this culture. And it. To me, it's like. It's the prevailing problem. But to me, the song is. First of all, I thought it would be fun to end a triple record with a song called Enough. But it was also at the beginning of the record at one point. You know, I think what it means to me at this point is that after all the rest of the record, the message kind of is it's really sad and really painful, and I can't get enough of it. This life, you know, life is full.

[Robin Hilton]

Of pain and sorrow and misery and over way too soon.

[Jeff Tweedy]

Right, Exactly. This is, you know, this, you know, the restaurant, we had terrible food and in small portions, such small, so little of it. Yeah. No, but I mean, that's a little bit of a joke and it sounds, you know, I don't know. It's just a reality. I think it's just the reality of it. And that's kind of amazing, you know, because I think most people feel that way. And it's really, really tragic when someone loses that will to live. But most people have a strong will to live in spite of all of that sadness and suffering and inevitably suffering. That is extremely hopeful and powerful to me. It's the kind of thing that I don't I feel like we shouldn't allow ourselves to lose. It's really not that it's not the travail as much as the fact that even with the travail, this is what I want. I want more of it. I want this life. I want to be. I want to be here.

[Robin Hilton]

Jeff Tweedy talking about Twilight Override, his new solo album, a triple album, so much more that we talked about that I just didn't have time to include stuff around his creative process and workflow, especially, as you can imagine, he writes and records a lot. In fact, Jeff says that he has about two, two more albums worth of songs that didn't even make it on Twilight Override. But you know, that drive to create and keep going and push himself, that's part of what he was talking about there at the end with the album's closing song, enough. And it's what I find so inspiring about Jeff and his work, especially Twilight Override. These songs, I think, are just such a powerful reminder of the things that matter most in our silly little lives and just how important it is to protect and nourish and grow those things. Anyway, you'll find an edited transcript of this full conversation on our website if you want to spend some more time with it. NPR.org allsongs the album Twilight Override from Jeff Tweedy is out on September 26th. I'm Robin Hilton. Thanks so much for listening. It's All Songs Considered from NPR Music.

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