How to love the Grateful Dead

Summary

NPR Music Podcast: "How to Love the Grateful Dead"

Release Date: July 28, 2026
Hosts/Panel: Robin Hilton, Felix Contreras, Issa Rae, Isabela Gomez Sarmiento

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Overview

This episode of All Songs Considered (NPR Music) tackles the perennial question: "How do you learn to love the Grateful Dead?" Host Robin Hilton, who admits to a longstanding inability to connect with the band, enlists passionate Deadheads Felix Contreras, Issa Rae, and Isabela Gomez Sarmiento. Together, they break down both the enduring appeal and persistent criticisms of the Grateful Dead, seeking to illuminate what makes the band so special (or so polarizing), especially in the wake of founding member Bob Weir’s passing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Entry Points: Why the Grateful Dead?

• Felix Contreras didn’t get into the Dead immediately; his first musical loves were jazz and Santana. The real “aha” moment came from witnessing Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir perform with Santana at a benefit concert in the 80s. (01:24)
  • “I ignored him for years...It wasn’t till I saw Garcia and Bob Weir do a benefit performance with Santana that I actually paid attention to what Garcia was playing.” – Felix Contreras (01:24)
• Issa Rae represents a younger generation. Her Dead awakening began with the 50th anniversary “Fare Thee Well” shows in high school, followed by Dead & Company tours during college. (02:09)
  • “I would call myself a Bob Weir Dead and Company disciple...I just got really, really locked in while I was in college.” – Issa Rae (02:09)

2. The Deaths of Icons: What’s Next for Deadheads?

• The passing of Jerry Garcia (1995) and, more recently, Bob Weir have signified major transitions. The hosts reflect on rituals of mourning and how the Dead’s music continues to forge community. (03:22-05:31)
  • “He looked way older than he was because of the substance abuse…” – Issa Rae (04:04)
• Felix and Issa have embarked on journalistic and creative projects to explore the Dead’s legacy and the current moment of change. (05:01)
• “How did this phenomenon keep persevering despite death being a recurring thing in the band?...Now it's like a new chapter, new ending, new beginning.” – Issa Rae (05:32)

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The Top 5 Grateful Dead Criticisms: Deadhead Rebuttals

Complaint #1: “They’re a Jam Band—It’s All Aimless Noodling”

Time: (06:14 – 14:20)

• The classic critique: the band gets lost in improvisation, lacking direction.
• Rebuttal: Both Felix and Issa argue the Dead essentially invented the “jam band” label, but their improvisation is different: rooted in jazz, bluegrass, classical chops—not random meandering.
  • “What the Grateful Dead were doing in terms of improvisation just feels different…they were all coming at it from their own angle.” – Issa Rae (06:47)
  • “I really dislike the name jam band…it doesn't capture what they did. My perspective was as a jazz fan…when I started listening to the Grateful Dead, I heard a jazz band in so many different ways.” – Felix Contreras (07:35)
• Key Example: Alpine Valley show (07/17/89): the transition from “China Cat Sunflower” to “I Know You Rider” considered a masterclass in improvisational structure. (09:23)
• The jams are described as “journeys”—not pointless, but with a meaningful arc. (12:53)
• “You know you’re going somewhere. You just have to kind of ride it out.” – Issa Rae (12:53)

Complaint #2: “The Lyrics Are Nonsense”

Time: (15:49 – 21:33)

• Claim: Lyrics are too cryptic or nonsensical (e.g., “China Cat Sunflower”).
  • “Copper dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy quilt Star gown through a dream night wind.” – Robin Hilton (16:18)
• Rebuttal: Robert Hunter (lyricist) was a poet who wanted listeners to interpret the words for themselves; lyrics are meant to be evocative and open-ended, not literal.
  • “The beauty of Robert Hunter is that they are kind of hard to decipher because you’re supposed to kind of interpret it for yourself.” – Issa Rae (17:09)
• Example: “Ripple” as an accessible, profound ballad about home, belonging, and spiritual seeking. (18:10-21:33)
  • “If I knew the way I would take you home…when you hear everybody sing it together, I always cry. It just feels—feels so…this is the home that we all built together.” – Issa Rae (19:44)

Complaint #3: “They’re Sloppy Musicians”

Time: (24:14 – 30:53)

• Critique: Their live shows are messy; not technically great.
• Rebuttal: Mistakes are part of the risk and humanity of live performance; when the Dead lock in, their interplay is transcendent.
  • “All musicians are just vessels for the energy coming from the universe.” – Felix Contreras (24:52)
• Showcases: “Morning Dew” (Europe ’72) and the Jerry Garcia Band’s “I Shall Be Released” highlight emotive, narrative guitar work and the group’s synergy. (25:10, 27:50)
• “Every guitar solo…it's like I'm hanging on to every word of what he's doing. But it's not words—it's just the way he's playing the instrument and also making room for everybody else in the band.” – Issa Rae (29:54)

Complaint #4: “Jerry Garcia Can’t Sing (Nor Can the Others)”

Time: (31:09 – 36:22)

• Standard knock: Weak or unpolished vocals.
• Rebuttal: Garcia’s voice fits the material—fragile, world-weary, and deeply human; Bob Weir’s fiery, husky counterbalances add to their unique chemistry, while Donna Godchaux’s “kinetic, untamable energy” completes the ensemble.
  • “It’s not about having the cleanest, highest quality vocal. It’s what that texture brings to the material.” – Issa Rae (32:52)
  • “He was the perfect [singer] for that band…” – Robin Hilton (31:53)
• Felix cites Garcia’s work in bluegrass/folk as particularly effective. (35:03-36:22)

Complaint #5: “It’s Just Stoner Culture—The Scene Isn’t for Me”

Time: (36:52 – 42:38)

• Stereotype: The Grateful Dead is only for hippies and drug users.
• Rebuttal: While the culture certainly welcomes experimentation, it’s also open, warm, and multi-generational. Not everyone at shows uses substances; what unites is the spirit of acceptance and shared experience.
  • “Since going to concerts since 1973, I’ve never been in an altered state…Ever....my own personal experiences—when it finally hit me, it really hit me and I got it.” – Felix Contreras (37:08)
  • “There is a community aspect to it…some part of that community might be engaging in the stoner culture, but not everybody is. The bigger thing is it's a very accepting place.” – Issa Rae (39:05)
• Adapting the experience: the music holds up without the scene, but communal context often deepens its impact. (40:10)
  • “I think there's a dead for everybody, and there's a way to connect with the dead for everybody…those experiences…become a part of how you feel the music and how you feel the songs, even when you're by yourself.” – Issa Rae (40:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Letting Go:
  • “The message of the music is about letting go—but in order to really enjoy it, you also have to let go.” – Robin Hilton (21:33)
  • “It is an ego death experience…You can’t have these walls up and be embarrassed and have ego around other people.” – Issa Rae (21:42)
• On Human Imperfection:
  • “There is something so grounding about the Grateful Dead just being this human quest for something greater than all of us.” – Issa Rae (42:38)
• Tiny Desk Memory:
  • “One of my career highlights was bringing in Bob Weir with the Wolf Brothers for a tiny desk. And when they started singing this part at the end, the La da da da...I was bawling.” – Felix Contreras (21:07)
• On Community:
  • “It’s always about the audience experience. Even when I went to go see them in Vegas…we just had this experience and everybody was still just…glowing from the experience. It's like, hey, man, did you have a good show?” – Felix Contreras (23:00-23:51)

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Suggested Entry Points: Songs for Grateful Dead Beginners

Timestamps: (43:30 – 44:48)

• “Truckin’” (43:38)
• “Deal” and rootsy, Americana ones (43:41)
• “Uncle John’s Band” (43:45)
  • “It's so beautiful…This is the era when they were working with Crosby, Stills, and Nash, so there was an emphasis on getting these vocals right.” – Felix Contreras (44:31)

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Continuing the Exploration: NPR's Dead Series

• Felix and Issa announce a multi-part NPR series (launching August 1, 2026) exploring Dead fandom and culture. They invite listener stories and voice memos about personal Dead experiences.
  • “We’re asking people to write in to tell us what it is that they like about the Dead. What does it mean to them? When did they first get exposed?” – Felix Contreras (45:30)

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Concluding Thoughts

Timestamps: (45:49 – 46:13)

• Robin, the self-confessed skeptic, is “willing to get on the bus” and see where the music and community leads him.
  • “When the bus shows up, I'll get on and I'll go with you for a while and I'm happy to see what happens. That's where I am.” – Robin Hilton (46:04)
• “Listen, to some of us, that’s all we can hope for.” – Felix Contreras (46:11)

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Episode Structure with Timestamps

| Segment | Topic/Quote | Timestamp | |----------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Personal Grateful Dead Stories| Felix and Issa’s entry, band legacies | 01:24 – 05:31 | | Top 5 Criticisms | Jam band, lyrics, musicianship, vocals, stoner scene | 06:14 – 42:38 | | Rebuttals by Deadheads | Musical philosophy, lyric interpretation, community | Various throughout | | Tiny Desk & Notable Moments| “Ripple”, audience experience, tiny desk tears | 21:07, 21:25 | | “Beginner Dead” Tracks | Guidance for new listeners, “Truckin’”, “Uncle John’s Band” | 43:30 – 44:48 | | The Invitation | Call for listener stories, welcoming Robin onto “the bus” | 45:13 – 46:13 |

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Takeaway

The Grateful Dead offer an expansive universe: musical risk-taking, poetic lyrics meant for your own interpretation, messy human connection, and an inclusive community. The band’s essence isn’t captured by genre tags or stereotypes, but rather experienced through openness—open ears and an open heart. Even if the bus hasn’t arrived for everyone, its doors remain open.

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If you want to understand why the Grateful Dead matter, this episode suggests: listen actively, let go, and maybe, just maybe, you’ll find something unexpectedly meaningful—on, or off, the bus.

Transcript

[Felix Contreras]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana. Carvana believes selling your car should be easy. Get a real offer down to the penny picked up from your driveway. You may keep waiting for a catch. There isn't one. Sell [e-mail] Pickup fees may apply.

[Robin Hilton]

This episode of All Songs Considered comes to you from NPR Music and the NPR Music Podcast. It's where you can find out about and hear the best new songs, new albums, and just hang out with us, gab about whatever's going on in the world of music. NPR Music also your home for Alt Latinos, Felix Contreras.

[Felix Contreras]

Hey, man, what's happening?

[Robin Hilton]

We got new episodes of Alt Latino in this feed every Wednesday.

[Felix Contreras]

That's right, man. Don't miss it.

[Robin Hilton]

Close out the week with new music Friday. That's on Fridays. Also, NPR music reporter and sometimes host of Alt Latino, Isabella Gomez Sarmiento.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Hi.

[Robin Hilton]

So, on this week's show, we're gonna talk about one of the biggest blind spots I think I've ever had when it comes to music. I've got a lot of blind spots, but this is one that I think is somewhere near the top of my list, maybe, maybe my biggest blind spot. The Grateful Dead.

[Felix Contreras]

Let's get into it, man.

[Issa Rae]

Let's do it.

[Robin Hilton]

This is a band that I know is hugely important to both of you.

[Issa Rae]

Guilty as charged.

[Felix Contreras]

Guilty.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Yep.

[Robin Hilton]

Felix, I don't need to ask you how, how you came to the Grateful Dead. I, I, I have a pretty good idea.

[Felix Contreras]

Well, it's, it would be, it's probably a little different than, than you think, but, I mean, I ignored him for years.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh, really?

[Felix Contreras]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, man.

[Robin Hilton]

You weren't just, like, from right out the gate when you were a teenager?

[Felix Contreras]

No, I, I was, I'm a late bloomer because I was into other stuff.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah.

[Felix Contreras]

Like jazz, especially specifically Santana. I was like, it was a whole, which is, they're adjacent. I don't know why. And it wasn't until I saw Garcia and Bob Weir do a benefit performance with Santana that I actually paid attention to what Garcia was playing. And I'm like, oh, my God, what,

[Robin Hilton]

what year was this?

[Felix Contreras]

So when you, when you, in the

[Robin Hilton]

80s, 80s, you started getting.

[Felix Contreras]

Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

How about you, Issa? I mean, you're like a totally different generation. I mean, you, Jerry Garcia, had been dead for years before you were even born.

[Issa Rae]

That's correct. I am. I, I would call myself a Bob Weir Dead and Company disciple. I was in high school. I was finishing high school when they did the 50th anniversary fare thee well, show. So it was like suddenly the Grateful Dead was very much back in pop culture. And then they announced Dead and Company. I started seeing them, I started following them on the road. I just got really, really locked in while I was in college. And I've stayed a huge fan of the band ever since.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, they're a band that, you know, unlike a lot of bands that I just don't care for, they're a band that, like, I feel like I should love this band. And it's always felt like a failing of mine that I've. I've just not been able to get into them. I mean, all my friends love them. My whole friend circle. There is literally no reason why I should not have been into this band. I was texting with a friend sometime in January. I was like, hey, hey, what are you doing? And he said, we're just kind of having a wake for Bob. And we have. There's a friend in our circle of friends named Bob. It's like, robin, how could you not know? I was like, who are you talking about? He's like, Bob Weir. But like, they. It was. It hit them so hard that, like, they all got together and they were just having a night. We were like, we're just remembering Bob tonight, man.

[Felix Contreras]

I remember when Garcia died, I was. I was at, you know, pre Internet 95, 8-9-95. And I was sitting at home. I think I heard it on mtv. Kurt Loder, I think, you know, it was that kind of thing. And there was a knock on my door, and it was a buddy of mine was. We're both huge Los Lobos fans, but also Grateful Dead fans. He's like, bro, Garcia's dead. Like, we just sat there and had a beer and just had our own little two person wake about how bummed we were.

[Robin Hilton]

I remember thinking, at least he lived a good long life.

[Felix Contreras]

Cause he was.

[Robin Hilton]

In my mind, he was as old as dirt. And now I'm much older than he was.

[Felix Contreras]

Was he 53?

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, he was really young.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah, that's really young.

[Issa Rae]

But, you know, I mean, he didn't look. He looked way older than he was because of the substance abuse. And, well, he had.

[Robin Hilton]

The ones had the big gray beard. So you're gonna break it down for me. We're gonna talk about all kinds of stuff with the band. But the goal here is to walk away from this episode knowing or understanding how to love the Grateful Dead. This is public service journalism at its finest.

[Issa Rae]

This is what we're here for.

[Robin Hilton]

This is what the people want. This Year was a milestone for the Grateful Dead because, of course, Jerry Garcia, as I mentioned, he died more than 30 years ago. But Bob Weir, founding member and guitarist, he basically kept things going, particularly with the Dead and company. But he died in January. So fans like y' all have been kind of left wondering, where do we go from here?

[Felix Contreras]

Issa and I have been working on a series of stories, sound stuff, podcasts. We're doing a bunch of stuff.

[Issa Rae]

Photo essays.

[Felix Contreras]

Photo essays, a bunch of stuff. We did our own little Summer Dead tour to look at, basically, to answer that question, what's next for Grateful Dead?

[Robin Hilton]

Where do you go from here?

[Felix Contreras]

Right.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. You know, the Grateful dead officially ended 31 years ago in 1995, but somehow it felt like they had kept going for all this time because of what Bob Weir was doing, what Phil Lesch was doing.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

So.

[Issa Rae]

So we were trying to understand, like, how did this phenomenon keep persevering despite death being a recurring thing in the band? And now it's like a new chapter, new ending, new beginning. Where do we go?

[Robin Hilton]

All right, well, look, I don't want to harsh your mellow, but I thought what we could do is just kind of go through some of the reasons people don't like the band. You know, whatever the main complaints or criticisms or whatever are. And you all can just swat them away. But I think these are maybe the main complaints that people in general have. We'll do the top five complaints, and I didn't rank these, but what do you think is maybe. What would you guess is the number one complaint?

[Felix Contreras]

Probably. I don't know. The music meanders too much.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. I think the jamming people don't. People aren't into the jamming. I could see how that's a big sort of obstruction for getting into it.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah. So that's what I wrote down is the number one complaint. They're a jam band. But what does that really mean? I think, like, just saying a band is a jam band. It's a shorthand for that the music just sort of wanders around aimlessly, that nothing's really happening in the jams, and it just kind of goes on forever. The songs don't go anywhere. Complaint number one, good.

[Issa Rae]

I would argue that the Grateful Dead is not. They were the creators of what we now understand as jam bands. But, like, I'm not a big fan of other, quote unquote, jam bands. I just can't really get into it. I think what the Grateful Dead were doing in terms of improvisation just feels different. They were all coming at it from their own angle of, like, Jerry with the bluegrass. And there was a strong jazz influence. And, you know, you have Phil with like, a classical music training. Like, it doesn't feel like they were just hippies with guitars being like, let's noodle for an hour. I think there was, like, music theory and composition that went into the way they approached improvisation, that I think a lot of other jam bands don't do it in quite the same way. So to me, it's like, I don't even. They are the originators of the jam band, but that wasn't a thing when they were doing it. I don't know.

[Felix Contreras]

I really dislike the name jam band. It's been put on them, and it doesn't capture what they did. And my perspective was as a jazz fan, like, since high school, the more I learned about jazz, that when I started listening to the Grateful Dead and then I heard a jazz band in so many different ways. Bob Weir has said that his main influence as a rhythm guitarist, because he very rarely played lead, was McCoy Tyner from. From John Coltrane's quartet. Right. And just playing behind Coltrane, that was. That was his main source of inspiration. And within the structure of these songs that were, either they're short, you know, storytelling songs, longer, like I called them meditations on life, about creation. There are all these longer songs that have a lot of space for creativity, for playing stuff. So jamming, you know, it's like, you know, as a musician, I don't. I don't like to go to jam sessions because it's just, like. It's just a big mess, right? But that's not what they did for me. They just. They were. It was highly, highly musical in every. Every sense of the world and. And would completely blow up sometimes. Every. They. They admitted it all their Fans admitted Dennis McNally, their publicist, demographer. They would misread lyrics, they would miss cues, but it's like, you're out there without a net, man. And. And that's the. The. The spark of creativity.

[Issa Rae]

And when it worked, like, sometimes, you know, they were lost and they were trying to find their footing and they were trying to find each other. But then when, like, when it clicks and when they do find each other, it.

[Felix Contreras]

So this is a YouTube video.

[Robin Hilton]

Okay.

[Felix Contreras]

Okay. You go to YouTube. Look for Alpine Valley, Wisconsin, 7. 1789.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh, July.

[Felix Contreras]

Okay, sorry. Okay, now scroll in to at about 5 minutes and 20 seconds. This particular transition was so incredibly popular. And they go from China Cat Sunflower to this traditional song called I Know youw Rider. And it's that transition where they're Garcia soloing, and then all of a sudden you're in. I know you Rider. And you can hear Phil's.

[Issa Rae]

Phil's bass.

[Felix Contreras]

Yeah, right. And Garcia is a singular guitarist, like, so many influences. Folk, bluegrass, jazz, rock and roll, his own thing.

[Robin Hilton]

So you would argue that this is actually very carefully orchestrated and not just a bunch of mindless noodling or whatever the complaint is.

[Felix Contreras]

I don't know that it's orchestrated, but they're in a flow. Like, how orchestrated can you be when you're in this river and it's just pushing you along and you're on a tube. You're in control of the tube, but the river's just taking you.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. I would say, to me, the thing about the jams is that these songs, particularly like the triptychs and the ones that are sequences that are well known, that go into each other, they're journeys, you know? And it's funny, Felix says you're on a river, because to me, it's kind of like one of the ones I was gonna bring is Help on the Way into Slipknot, into Franklin's Tow. And it starts off really moody and dark, and it's kind of like you're like sailing. And a storm comes up and things get really dark for a second and everyone's like hanging onto each other for dear life, you know? The Help on the Way into Slipknot, it's all instrumental. It's kind of like these dark jazz arpeggios. And then Franklin's tower breaks into this really sort of hippie rock mellowed out song.

[Robin Hilton]

You listen to this. They know where they're going.

[Felix Contreras]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Robin Hilton]

This isn't just like, let's just see what happens, man. And just. You just go for a while and I'll go like. This is very carefully thought out here.

[Issa Rae]

It's not aimless, right.

[Felix Contreras]

And there's tricky time signatures in the song. Some of them are in five, some of them are in seven, you know, so they have to pay attention.

[Issa Rae]

And it feels like the clouds go away, the sun comes out, you can, like, jump in the water, and you're reborn. It's like you're on this journey with everyone, and, like, the destination's not the point, but there is a destination, which is why it doesn't feel like aimless noodling. Like, you know you're going somewhere. You just have to kind of ride it out.

[Robin Hilton]

It's all about the journey, man.

[Issa Rae]

I'm sorry. But it's true. What I do think Franklin's tower is like the stereotypical hippie music you think of when you think of the Grateful Dead. But to me, there is no better feeling than reaching the crest where that instrumental transitions into Franklin's and everyone's just like dancing and hugging and spinning around together in the crowd.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, so I mentioned that I went through a bunch of Reddit comments and threads and stuff like that. One of the comments that somebody made was the difficult part about getting into the Grateful Dead is that you have to learn how to listen to it differently than you do other music. Well, I'll say the original Post was It's 2021. Can we finally admit the Grateful Dead suck, have always sucked and will always suck? And so someone wrote, I used to be in the same boat as you. And then one day, like a decade ago, the Dead just hit me. You kind of have to think of them as jazz, where they take a riff and they play on it. Yeah, to your point.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, they are a jazz band. They're a jazz band. And this is something Dennis McNally, the publicist and biographer, told us. They're a jazz band working within rock and roll formats. But it's not, it's not aimless jamming

[Felix Contreras]

with country, with, with folk. You know, there's equal parts, a little bit of disco. Yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff. Yeah, there's all kinds of stuff mixed in.

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[Robin Hilton]

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[Robin Hilton]

Well, let's talk about the lyrics. You mentioned the lyrics. I think that brings me to complaint number two, which is the lyrics are just a mess. Too abstract, too cryptic, or just total nonsense. Felix, you. You played a little bit of China Cat Sunflower. Let me just pull a line from there. Copper dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy quilt Star gown through a dream night wind.

[Felix Contreras]

What's confusing about that?

[Issa Rae]

That makes a lot of sense to me.

[Robin Hilton]

All right, you guys are grooving on a totally different wavelength. But that's the complaint. The lyrics are nonsense.

[Felix Contreras]

Okay? So China Cat Sunflower is, to me, has always been like. That's one of those ones where, you know, even John Lennon would write lyrics that would just match. Like, just match some kind of syntax idea he had in his head. Okay. You also have to understand that there was a lyricist. Robert Hunter wrote the Ly, and it's mostly Robert Hunter. And then Garcia would write music around these lyrics, like Bernie Taupin and Elton John, unconnected. And sometimes they would write together, and sometimes they wouldn't. So he wrote these lyrics, and then Garcia wrote this really nice song around it. That's an example of the, like, I don't know. They're into it just because of the way the words sound together.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, I think. I mean, I would just say yes. Sometimes the lyrics are difficult to understand, and they're very abstract, I think. Robert Hunter was a poet, an incredible poet, and I think part of it, from the things that I've read of him speaking about the lyrics and addressing some of these complaints, actually, with Franklin's Tower, he wrote an essay in 1996 responding to somebody saying that those lyrics didn't make any sense. And it seems like for him, a big part of it is also the experience of interpretation and the way that people create meaning within these words that he has built. I mean, that's a song that, like, if you look at the lyrics, it's, you know, in Franklin's tower, there hangs a bell. And he talked about how he wrote it before the bicentennial in 1975, and that was supposed to be a nod to American independence. So there's all these things that you wouldn't necessarily get. I never thought about American independence listening to that song. To me, that's a song about, like, you know, roll away the dew, Shake off all the bad things. If you get confused, listen to the music play. It's a grounding exercise. But I think the beauty of Robert Hunter is that they are kind of hard to decipher because you're supposed to kind of interpret it for yourself. They're not. He's not spelling it out for you.

[Felix Contreras]

Okay, so there's a couple of things we can do here. Let's try Ripple. It was on American Beauty. And American Beauty is where they really, really came together with their Americana thing. They went from the psychedelic, LSD influenced, okay, we're gonna just try everything. And then they got. They really refined it in 1970, released two albums, American Beauty and Working Man's Dead.

[Issa Rae]

And like, it's the studio album, I would say, yeah, for sure.

[Felix Contreras]

Friend of the Devil, Sugar Magnolia, Ripple Broke Down Palace, Addicts of My Life Trucking. A lot of these songs, man, they stayed with them forever.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine and my tunes were played on the hall on strum Would you hear my voice come through the music? Would you hold it near as it were your own?

[Felix Contreras]

You know the line let there be songs to fill the air like played on a harp on Strong ripple on still water where there is no pebble tossed There is no wind to blow. It's so, to me, in my personal journey, there's a direct parallel, and it's about looking for a path to perfection and my own path to perfection. And just listening to the lyrics just always brings me to that point.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, I would say the line that really always gets me in this song is if I knew the way I would take you home. I think, I mean, in my personal relationship to the Dead, I am an immigrant and a young woman, and I think that when I was getting into the duds music, it was like a coming of age moment of trying to connect to an American identity and culture that felt like it was rooted in kindness and love and, like unity and communion. And I think this song in particular, like, when you hear that everyone singing along together at the end, if I knew the way I would take you home. I think a lot of people that are drawn to the. Are people that feel like they don't fit in in some way. Whether that's because, you know, like, with me being. Not being from this country, or there's just something about, like, Deadheads sort of feeling like there's a friction with the way that they're supposed to be or the lives that they're supposed to lead and finding, like, that communion and that home within the Grateful Dead's music. And I think this is the song that really encapsulates that. And when you hear everybody sing it together, I always cry. It just feels. Feels so. It's like this is the home that we all built together.

[Felix Contreras]

One of my career highlights was bringing in Bob Weir with the Wolf Brothers for a tiny desk. And when they started singing this part at the end, the La da da da.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah.

[Felix Contreras]

Bobby Carter caught me crying. Yeah. I was bawling to hear the whole crowd just, like, just start singing. Gonna start again.

[Issa Rae]

It's like a lullaby, too. It's just really. It's like reaching for a home that might not exist and might not be perfect, but we're all reaching for it together.

[Robin Hilton]

I don't know. It sounds like the message of the music, of course, is about letting go, but that in order to really enjoy it, you also have to let go.

[Issa Rae]

This is the thing, I think a lot of the Grateful Dead's music and really leaning into it does force you to sort of. It is an ego death experience. And I know that that's kind of like a stereotypical way to talk about it, but you can't have these walls up and be embarrassed and have ego around other people. Like, I think even the experience of the way that people dance at the shows, Right. And it's kind of a thing to make fun of, but everyone is so free and so uninhibited in a way that, like, I love indie rock, but you go to indie rock shows, and everyone is just standing there, like, rigid, kind of nodding along, and you can tell everyone's caught up in all their own stuff.

[Robin Hilton]

I just had this conversation with a friend of mine who plays live. He plays dance music, and he plays these massive shows out in Portland where everyone's just dancing and freaking out. And we talked about the ways that people watch music, watch live music. And I said, you know, I think I've watched every live show I've ever watched, just standing there with my arms folded, just watching the musicians.

[Felix Contreras]

Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

And I remember all my friends, we'd go out and we'd go see shows, and we just stand there right by the stage with our arms folded, just very passively watching. And my. My thought was always, well, it's because we're musicians and we're. We're listening for and watching.

[Felix Contreras]

Right.

[Robin Hilton]

Something else.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

And everyone else around us is kind of letting go.

[Felix Contreras]

And you know what was always fascinating to me? Like, after my first show, you see people out in the street, you know, filing out of the. You know, the theater or whatever, the venue, and. And people were just like, hey, man, did you have A good show? Did you have a good show? That's always the question after. It's like, did you have a good show?

[Robin Hilton]

Did you have a good person? Yeah.

[Felix Contreras]

Did you enjoy yourself? Did you have a good show? It's always about the audience experience. Even when I went to go see them In Vegas, Denning Co. In Vegas, at the Sphere. Walking back to my hotel in Las Vegas and all the lights and everything's going on, but we just had this experience and everybody was still just sort of not, you know, mind alteringly, substantially buzzing. It was just everybody still glowing from the experience. It's like, hey, man, did you have a good show?

[Issa Rae]

And you do it in your own way. Like, that's not to say everyone's dancing. Some people are standing there locked in on what they're doing, and that's okay, too. But I think it' this comfort of just doing what really feels natural and what really feels freeing for you in the moment as opposed to being. Yeah. Within your preconceived notions and within this. Within these, like, rigid structures of how you think you're supposed to be behaving at the show.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, I think we were ostensibly talking about lyrics there. That was complaint number two. Let's get to another complaint. You both mentioned how sometimes when they get into these jams or they're trying to take the song in a certain direction, it all kind of starts to fall apart. That brings me to complaint number three. Complaint number three. Not great musicians. Very sloppy performances. Well, you know, that's just like your opinion, man.

[Felix Contreras]

That just.

[Issa Rae]

Wrong. Just categorically wrong.

[Felix Contreras]

That just shows how little you know about music.

[Robin Hilton]

I'm just.

[Issa Rae]

I'm just.

[Felix Contreras]

No, not you, man.

[Issa Rae]

Not you.

[Robin Hilton]

Whoever said it, I'm just a vessel here for. For these complaints.

[Felix Contreras]

That's exactly it. All musicians are just vessels for the energy coming from the universe. I read that from Coltrane in high school, and it took me forever to understand.

[Robin Hilton]

Okay, well, I'm just channeling the complaints here, and one of them is that maybe these guys actually aren't that good at their jobs.

[Issa Rae]

I have something to counter that.

[Robin Hilton]

Go for it.

[Issa Rae]

It's called Morning Dew. Europe 72.

[Felix Contreras]

Oh, my God.

[Robin Hilton]

Is there a particular post or part I should skip ahead here to further in?

[Issa Rae]

For sure.

[Felix Contreras]

Are you talking about the guitar solo?

[Issa Rae]

Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

All right, let's get to the guitar solo then.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Sam,

[Issa Rae]

I would say to get the full context of this song, because this is a song that really takes you on a journey. It's a folk song. The dad did not write it. About waking up in a post apocalyptic world after the nuclear bomb or after a nuclear war, essentially.

[Robin Hilton]

The Dead. Didn't you say the Dead didn't write this one?

[Issa Rae]

No, this is one of those cover songs that they really turned into their own thing. The Dead did a lot of covers. And yeah, this was written about sort of waking up in a post nuclear war reality. And, you know, I can't walk you out into the morning dew. Like, you can't go outside. The air is literally toxic and nuclear. But I think the emotion that he conveys both through his voice. I know people have complaints about Jerry Garcia's voice. I think it has this incredible twang and the way that he uses the guitar to really sort of hone in on this, like, desperation and melancholy of the situation. And then it kind of transforms into something else. I think the original song is a lot darker. And I think to me, this song almost has like a hopefulness that comes through at the end. And there's these moments where like, Jerry's guitar is really the protagonist here. But the way that everybody else in the band is able to come in and support him. And there are moments in the song where it gets really intense and the drummers are playing and you can hear Bob and everyone's sort of around him. And then everyone kind of melts away. And it's just Jerry and the guitar and his voice. I think it just tells a story in a way that I have never heard other instruments be able to do without having. You don't have to listen to the lyrics, in my opinion, for this song to feel the journey that it's taking you on.

[Felix Contreras]

I have another suggestion so that you can hear some of the emotion of Jerry Garcia's guitar. This is from the Jerry Garcia Band, his side project that he always had going. Played smaller venues, mostly played old rock and roll. Played a lot of Dylan. They were big, big fans of Bob Dylan. This is from the Jerry Garcia Band album. It's a live album, was recorded. I think it was recorded at the war at Warfield. At the Warfield in San Francisco. This is his solo on I Shall Be Released, Bob Dylan's masterpiece about facing eternity. If you go into like at 6:20, you'll hear him take that song to another level.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Sam.

[Robin Hilton]

There's a gentleness in the way that he plays that I think could be mistaken for. For not weakness, but just sort of like kind of like a flaccid way of playing or something. You know, like, it's not like he's coming at you hard and fast. Right. It's. He lets. Lets it breathe.

[Felix Contreras]

Lots. Lots of space and lots of melodicism. And when you, when you hear him play and he's doing all the, like, a lot of notes. That's his bluegrass background. He played banjo. He started out as a banjo player. Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

There's a narrative quality to the way that he plays guitar where I feel like I'm every guitar solo. It's like I'm hanging on to every word of what he's doing. But it's not words. It's just the way he's playing the instrument and also making room for everybody else in the band. Like, I think it's really amazing he has these solos, but everyone else is also doing their thing. Jerry is not really. He's in the spotlight, but he lets it be big enough to include everyone. It's a really beautiful dialogue between everybody on stage.

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[Robin Hilton]

All right, so that's. That's complaint number three. Not. Not great musicians. Again, these are just the complaints. I'm not saying this is a fact. It's just. Don't at me, bro. Don't. Don't come at me. Deadheads. Actually, we don't need to worry about the Deadheads coming for anybody.

[Issa Rae]

Right?

[Felix Contreras]

I mean, that's never.

[Robin Hilton]

That's. That's not happening. Let's get to complaint number four. Complaint number four. And this has come up along the way here. Jerry Garcia can't sing. I think that that's actually a complaint that you could. Could make against just about the whole band. I was listening to the top of Dark Star. Like, I'm not a little pitchy. Not quite in tune there.

[Felix Contreras]

You know, Again, I grew up with Bob Dylan. Right. He's not a Sinatra singer. There are a lot of vocalists that they just. Their voices weren't there. And I think Garcia's voice matched the material.

[Robin Hilton]

I mean, this is sort of the argument of like Ringo Starr, people saying Ringo couldn't drum, but he met the moment he matched the Beatles. Like, he was the perfect drummer exactly for that band.

[Felix Contreras]

Yeah. Even if you go on into later Years. Like, in one of the songs I was going to suggests a song called Black Muddy River.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

When the last rose of summer breaks my face and the hot sun chills me to the bone When I can't hear the song for the sake and I can't tell my pillow from a

[Felix Contreras]

stone it's world weary, it's craggy it's been around and that's the essence of the song. The essence of the song is about being in that spot. And I think his voice matches it.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, I agree with Felix. He has a fragile voice, but I think that's what helps carry the tone and the message and the stories of the songs. And I agree, like, I think saying someone can't sing, it's like you could say that about a lot of people who have really distinct voices. And that's part of the beauty of their music. You know, it's not about having the cleanest, highest quality vocal. It's kind of like what that texture brings to the material. And I will say I love Bob Weir's voice. It was, like, fiery and strong and husky. It's kind of the complete opposite of Jerry. And I think they both. Those songs, like, balance each other out so well. And when they sing together, I love the sort of dissonance between their two approaches to singing. Bob's like, in your face yelling. He would do these big yells sometimes in the middle, like, one more Saturday night.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Saturday night yeah, one more Saturday night

[Issa Rae]

Hey, Saturday night He's, you know, rocking out in such a different way than Garcia's. Mellowed out floating behind and I will come to Donna Gottschow's defense she frickin ruled and turning to the fire

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

he

[Issa Rae]

clears the air and cuts. Sometimes it went off the rails and that's part of the beauty of the Grateful Dead is sometimes everybody went off the rails. But she also brought this, like, kinetic, untamable energy to the whole thing. And to me, it just. It really works. I love hearing their three voices together anytime they're harmonizing. It's gritty, but it's really satisfies something for me.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Slowly round the fire when he is gone I wanna know you better.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, Felix, you talk about how Jerry Garcia had the right voice for this band. One of the ways that I thought Jerry Garcia's voice did work really well for me was in his bluegrass and folk side projects that he did, and he had many. Yeah, I really love, like, that album Shady Grove that he did.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Peaches in the summertime Apples in the fall if I can't have the girl I love I don't want none at all Shady Grove my little love Shady Grove I know Shady Grove my little love I'm bound for Shady Grove really

[Robin Hilton]

love hearing him sing those old bluegrass songs and folk songs his voice had. It was kind of old timey in a way. It worked with that music. And I think whenever I tried listening to the Dead, I was wanting a rock voice or something. And it didn't ever quite click for

[Felix Contreras]

me because that's what he brought to the whole rock n roll spirit. That was his whole thing. It's just transferred into this rock and roll band that was playing jazz one layer after another. It fit the band.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Shady Grove, I know Shady Grove my little love I'm bound for Shady Grove

[Robin Hilton]

well, much like the band's music, I feel like this show has just kind of meandered around a little bit.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Oops.

[Robin Hilton]

Here we. We're just sort of. We're just letting go and seeing where it takes us. But we have been working through a rough top five list of complaints. They're jam banned. The lyrics are nonsense. Maybe not great musicians. Jerry Garcia can't sing. Which brings me to number five. What do you think is left in this list of principal complaints?

[Issa Rae]

Stoner culture.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh, my God. The culture of the scene. They're a stoner band. Felix is here. He's just like playing with things. He's like, wait, what are we doing to show? He's like playing with the mic. Mic stands. He's like, what?

[Felix Contreras]

I think that people have said that being under the influence of one thing or another enhances the experience. I personally have, like, since going to concerts, since 1973, I've never been in an altered state at all in any of the shows I've ever been to. Ever. Seriously. Never.

[Robin Hilton]

I'm giving him the most skeptical look I think I've ever given anybody in my life.

[Felix Contreras]

I have never been mind altered. When I've gone to any show of any genre, any style, anything. I can see where people will say that, oh, it's a stoner culture. It's a stoner band. They're just sort of meandering. You have to be high to get it. You know, my own personal experiences. Like I said, I've never been high. And when it finally hit me, it really hit me and I got it.

[Robin Hilton]

But that is the scene. I mean, that is for.

[Felix Contreras]

No, you can seriously. You can buy mushrooms in the parking lot. Yeah, I've been with people. We've done that.

[Robin Hilton]

Just think. I don't just. I Just don't want to be around it. I don't want to be in the whole hippie scene, and I. I don't want to hang out. Hang out in that crowd.

[Felix Contreras]

Yeah.

[Issa Rae]

I will say I can't say the same thing as Felix. I'm not gonna say I've never been to a show without having some sort of being in some sort of altered state. I've been to plenty of shows where I haven't. I think it's an incredibly welcoming scene. And I know that's not everybody's experience, but to me, it's kind of like everyone's doing their own thing. There's all kinds of people there. You know, we talked to Jim James about his appreciation for the Grateful Dead, and something he said that really stuck with me is that for people who are interested in experimenting with different levels of consciousness, that the Grateful Dead created a really safe space to do that, and particularly when those are things that are kind of stigmatized in the culture. I mean, you think about, like, the Grateful Dead had a giant, massive blow up in the 1980s with touch of Gray, and that was during the Reagan say no to drugs crackdown on drug enforcement.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

And.

[Issa Rae]

And I'm not saying, like, drug use is okay, or I'm not advocating for it, but I think they created a place where people could, for the most part, safely experiment and dive into these different experiences that they were curious about and be guided by music and art in doing so. And I think there is value to that. I don't think it permeates all of the scene. I've been to lots of Dead shows or Dead gatherings where it's like, a lot of little kids running around. It's a lot of families, it's a lot of older people. Like, that always made me feel really safe at shows when I was, like, 18, and there were, like, grandparents around us wanting to talk about why we were there and why we liked the Grateful Dead if we were so young. Like, there is a community aspect to it, and some part of that community might be engaging in the stoner culture, but not everybody is. And I think the bigger part, the bigger thing is that it's a very accepting place.

[Robin Hilton]

I think the community that you describe and how welcoming it is and the love and just sort of how peaceful it is. Do you think you would love the music just on its own if you were just listening to studio albums or.

[Felix Contreras]

I think that there's an entry place for people who are. Who are into listening to. If they really spend the time listening to the Lyrics and the lessons and the characters and, you know, there's so many different ways to enter and just, you know, try to decipher the metaphors. Try to decipher. What does it mean to you. Just like any other spiritual text, it's there. I. I think that the short answer is, yeah, I think that there's a place for people to spend time. Really. I would suggest, like, I did this with a bunch of Tom Wait stuff, too. For a long time. I would sit there with the lyrics and listen to his storytelling and listen the way his voice. Talk about a voice. Right.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah.

[Felix Contreras]

You know what I mean? It's like. Listen to how his voice and his Persona and his lyrics interpret life.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. I think there's a dead for everybody, and there's a way to connect with the dead for everybody. And I think for a lot of people, it doesn't have to be going to the shows, but I think if you've been to a show, it's hard to separate, because I think that those experiences that you have with people become a part of how you feel the music and how you feel the songs, even when you're by yourself. Like, I remember being in a show at Shoreline Amphitheater, and they played Birdsong, which wasn't a song that I really like that much.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

All I know she sings little while, then flew on.

[Issa Rae]

But I was, like, laying back on the grass and there was birds flying over, and the guy next to me was like, oh, my God, you see the birds? And now every time I listen to that song, I think about that guy and I think about that experience.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

If you hear that same sweet song again, you know what? Anyone who sings a tune so sweet is passing by,

[Issa Rae]

so it just becomes, like, a part of the music's DNA. And I don't think I would not enjoy the music without it, but it definitely makes it richer, and it keeps adding layers the more experiences that you have with the music.

[Felix Contreras]

And your example is a perfect example of the power of the song, because that song was written for Janis Joplin shortly after she passed. So it's, you know, a bird who came in and sang a song just for a little while. It's such a beautiful. They played it here at tiny desk with the harp. It's a beautiful homage to her spirit. But then people like her that have that same kind of spirit.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah. And I would say that, like, that's, to me, so much of the beauty of the dead is the humanity of it. They go on these big adventures. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Work. But listening to those shows, like, even listening to something where Bob comes in too early or somebody comes in too late and you can tell they messed up, it's a reminder I'll be listening. And I'm like, these were real people on a stage, performing all together in the same space for an audience and having this very human connection and experience through the music and through the art that is just so visceral and so fun. Like, I love having those little interruptions in the show or hearing something kind of go off the rails and then they find it again. I think especially as, like, our lives become more dependent on phones and technology and AI becomes a bigger thing. There is something so grounding about the Grateful Dead just being this human quest for something greater than all of us is there.

[Robin Hilton]

Like, if you picked one song to try to get somebody into the Dead, like, to me, it's probably like Truckin or something.

[Felix Contreras]

I think Truckin Deal, the kind of

[Issa Rae]

like rootsy rock Americana ones, I think are really good.

[Felix Contreras]

I think that that's a great.

[Issa Rae]

Uncle John's band is a great one that I think. People don't know as much, but it's so beautiful.

[Felix Contreras]

Yeah.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Well, the first days are the hardest days don't you worry anymore Dolls when life looks like easy street There is danger at your door Think this through with me Let me know your mind what, oh what I want to know is Are you kind.

[Felix Contreras]

This is the era when they were working a lot with Crosby, Stills, and Nash, so there was an emphasis on getting these vocals right. They were very, very rehearsed.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah, no, this is the tightest.

[Felix Contreras]

The vocals. Yeah. American Beauty and Working Man's Dead.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

You know all the rules by now and the fire from the ice Will you come with me? Won't you come with me? Whoa, oh what I want to know Will you come with me?

[Robin Hilton]

Well, remind everybody what you all are working on and tell us when the series that you've been working on launches. And I think you're also doing a call out.

[Issa Rae]

Yeah, so it's a multi part series. You know, we're gonna be doing podcasts, digital stories, photo essays, all kinds of pieces looking to answer what people love about the Dead and how they stay connected to the culture, especially in a moment like this one. And it launches August 1st.

[Robin Hilton]

And what's the callout you're doing?

[Felix Contreras]

We're asking people to write in to tell us what it is that they like about the Dead. What does it mean to them? When did they first get exposed? Personal stories about their connection to the dead.

[Robin Hilton]

And that call out's already up, I think. And people can also record voice memos and email those to the allsongs address. Allsongspr.org yeah, we want to hear from the dead heads.

[Felix Contreras]

There you go.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, I have to ask, did you have a good show?

[Issa Rae]

Yes, one of a kind.

[Felix Contreras]

Okay. Robin, are you on the bus? Are you getting close there? Are you waiting? Are you waiting for the bus to show up?

[Robin Hilton]

I tell you what, when the bus shows up, I'll get on and I'll go with you for a while and I'm happy to see what happens. That's where I am.

[Felix Contreras]

Yeah. Listen, to some of us, that's all

[Issa Rae]

we can hope for.

[Felix Contreras]

Yeah, that's it, man.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

I live in a silver mine and I call it Baker's Tomb. I got me a violin and I beg you, call the tomb.

[Robin Hilton]

Isabela Gomez Sarmiento, Felix Contreras, thanks so much to you both.

[Felix Contreras]

Thank you, man.

[Issa Rae]

Thank you, Robin.

[Robin Hilton]

Pretty strange trip, man.

[Issa Rae]

Long strange trip.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

All right.

[Robin Hilton]

You're listening to ALL SONGS CONSIDERED from NPR Music.

[Isabela Gomez Sarmiento]

Come here, I'll Uncle John's bend by the builder side got some things to talk about. Hill beside the rising tide. Come here, Uncle John's man playing to the tide. Come on alone. Go alone. He's come to take his children home.

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[Robin Hilton]

Hi, it's Terry Gross, host of FRESH AIR. Hey, take a break from the 24 hour news cycle with us and listen to long form interviews with your favorite authors, actors, filmmakers, comedians and musicians, the people making the art that nourishes us and speaks to our times.

[Issa Rae]

So listen to the FRESH AIR podcast

[Robin Hilton]

from NPR and WHYY.