Julie Height (3:17)

And you.

Kacey Musgraves (3:18)

Well, thanks. I was craving humor again. Like, I think that that was a big part of like earlier albums. And then I maybe purposefully steered away from that just so I didn't paint myself into some sort of like bumper sticker lane.

Julie Height (3:32)

Absolutely, yeah.

Kacey Musgraves (3:33)

And then like, you know, life happens, there's a divorce album, and then Golden Hour is its own thing, Deeper. Well's pretty introspective, kind of like, like calm and therapeutic. And then now we're here.

Julie Height (3:45)

I mean, I really can't think of many or maybe even any other examples of ever hearing an artist working in country songwriting lineage. I mean, male or female or any gender, you know, writing about this notion of, well, thirstiness. I mean, how about you? Could you think of anything else that you were.

Kacey Musgraves (4:11)

No, I mean, I don't think so. I think a lot of songs, people are trying to convince you of how sexy they are. And I'm telling you how I have not been getting any. You know, even the chickens are getting laid and I'm not. You know, you look over on a table beside you and it's two flies going at it and you're like, great. Must be nice. You know, like, awesome.

Julie Height (4:29)

Listening to Dry Spell made me think of when you released Merry Go Round. It is what it is. Follow your arrow. These songs where you're conveying sentiments in this really kind of low key, matter of fact way that sounds completely natural coming from you. But songs, you know, ideas in those songs that land in this kind of slightly transgressive way in the context of country music. And I think that you just have had a knack for doing that. I mean, that is a hallmark. It's one of the hallmarks of your work. And I wonder what you think it is about your voice as a writer and a vocalist that has kind of made that a thing. I don't know.

Kacey Musgraves (5:22)

I find the human condition pretty hilarious. You know, I feel like the universe has a pretty killer sense of humor. And so I just find a lot of humor in the everyday. And also, you know, one of my all time favorite writers did it best, John Prine. You know, also, I can be quite introspective and maybe like heady or whatever, but I really love anchoring something with that, you know, and I also feel like we need to laugh more in this modern crazy time, you know, that's true.

Julie Height (5:58)

Bringing forth the absurdity. But I think it wouldn't land the way that it does. It wouldn't be as successful or as funny if you didn't deliver it the way that you do. I mean, that seems really essential too. Cause they always say that timing is so important in the world of comedy. Delivery is so important. So I feel like that's also part of that hallmark for you is the, you know, just how. How cool you are laying it out there.

Kacey Musgraves (6:27)

Well, it started because I. I knew, like, I'm not a. I'm not a, like a textbook, like, singer. Like, you know, finger on the ear, like, finger waving in the air. Mariah Carey salt. Like, I just don't really. I don't consider myself that type of vocalist. So I like to rely more on the subtleties of things. And I. I love restraint in art. And I think it's hard to do especially. Especially, like in production. I think a lot of people love to, like. Well, I don't wanna say a lot of people. Everyone's different. But, you know, loading up a track with as much as possible, I just don't feel inspired by that. I love for there to be room to breathe, think and like some negative space in there, you know. And I think with the delivery of the lyrics or the melody or whatever, there has to be that same sort of approach to that. Like, I'm not convincing anyone of anything. It's there. If you want, fine. If you don't, you know.

Julie Height (7:24)

I also wondered what, you know, what might be appealing about kind of returning your focus to a small town setting when you can bring all of this accumulated insight to it. Cause it made me think back to the song deeper. Well, and talking about, you know, appreciating what you were, what was instilled in you growing up, but needing to wander far and wide, to take in so many other things. So now you're returning to contemplating this setting with all of this, all of this that you've taken in?

Kacey Musgraves (7:59)

Yeah, I think it's a little bit of that, but it's also just finding myself being totally okay in this proverbial sense of a middle of nowhere. You know what I mean? And that can apply to many different things. It can be how you feel relationally or emotionally. It can be, you know, someone in between jobs. It can be, yeah. Between relationships or even. Yeah, geographically speaking. I do come from the, quote, middle of nowhere. And like, actually the the title track for the record, the general concept of it came from, you know, being in this very singular period, you know, exploring all lot of my roots again, like my, you know, where I'm from in Texas, you know, spending time there more and getting back into horseback riding and all these things. And it was on a little trip to my hometown where I just was like simply, literally just wandering around the town. There's like not much there. And I had noticed this sign that someone had put up there that I had never noticed before. And it just says, golden, Texas, somewhere in the middle of nowhere. And I loved that. It was a bit self deprecating, but also kind of confident in the sense that it's like we know what we are and we own it. And it was just. It made an impression on me. And then like I was saying, I got really obsessed with the idea of liminal. The concept of liminal space. Liminal spaces are defined as the transitional space in between like a point A and a point B. Typically not designed to actually hang out in. And if we're speaking about a physical space, they're usually filled with people. We're talking like airport terminals or like places where you are meant to pass through. And there's an eeriness to them and a nostalgia a little bit. They can be a little anxiety inducing because they are normally filled with people. And then when they're not, you're like, oh, this is odd, this is strange. But I've felt. I feel really drawn to those places for some reason. And then they also apply to like. Like we're always rushing to define ourselves in the next thing, whether it's a job or a relationship or whatever. And I just really loved accepting that I was in this qu. This literal middle of nowhere in many senses. And I was just totally fine with that. I found a lot of clarity there and a lot of like it's such a fertile breeding ground for anything that's coming next.

Julie Height (10:21)

I mean, you. You were talking about kind of going through a single phase, but I think you deserve more credit than just doing like literal reportage on, you know, what was going on in your relational life. I mean, one of the. To me, one of the overarching themes of the album is aloneness and isolation, but it's really worlds away from something like, I'm so lonesome I could cry. I mean, listeners are not going to hear you, you know, pining for someone or wallowing in heartbreak. I mean, you.

Kacey Musgraves (10:54)

It's not lonely.

Julie Height (10:55)

Yeah. Because you've. I mean, you are exploring like wounds of absence. But you're also making all the things but sovereignty and.

Kacey Musgraves (11:05)

What's the word? Sovereignty and I guess power in that. You know what I mean? And it's powerful to know now that I don't need anyone to be happy. Because now whatever I do choose to put back into my life, whether it's friends, opportunities, relationships, whatever it can be, because it actually really serves me. Because now I know I'm free, freaking good without it.

Julie Height (11:24)

There is this perception that I'm. That I'm sure you've encountered, that traditional country music is simple in execution and simple in sentiment and that kind of thing. And you have, I mean, leaned probably further into that side of your sensibilities than any time since your Texas two bit kid yodeling or pageant materials maybe. Yeah, yeah. Days. And in doing that, made music that carries all of this emotional complexity and kind of captures all of these different kinds of ambiguity and ambivalence. So how did you choose the sonic palette that would suit the album's perspective?

Kacey Musgraves (12:09)

Yeah, I mean, I love traditional country music and the sounds that come along with that. And it might sound cliche, but, like, when I am in a period of sadness or heartbreak, I really do turn to that old school country music, you know, the traditional side of the genre. And it's so comforting because, I mean, it's. First off, it's all depressing songs about being heartbroken. So you feel very seen. And, you know, I grew up singing traditional western swing yodeling. Very, very traditional country music. And so those sounds are very baked into, like, what feels like home to me. So exploring them doesn't feel like I'm trying on a hat that doesn't fit. It just feels like part of me. And throughout my career, I feel like I've chosen different degrees of how much I pull it into different projects. It's always there to some degree. But it felt really good this time to really lean into it. And for me, it's always about finding the balance. If a lyric is inherently very. Going in that direction really hard, maybe the balance is that the track isn't that. So it's never too on the nose in the studio. They call me the Axeman. It's my nickname. Because we will, like load up a track with all these production elements. And then my favorite thing to do is get in there and just like, one by one, start muting things to see where the perfect balance is and what crosses the line a little too much in terms of, like, taste or space, I guess. And so I love the eraser tool. It's almost like I can feel the balance, like in my body, like when I'm hearing something. It's like the architecture of the thing is, like, really important to me.

Julie Height (13:51)

I want to be able to wrap my head around what the process actually looked like. Because you've cultivated these two really intimate circles of collaboration. I mean, first writing and recording with Shane McAnally, with Luke Laird. I mean, primarily them, you know, and

Kacey Musgraves (14:08)

then Brandy Clark, Josh Osborne, kind of that crew a little bit, Natalie Hemby.

Julie Height (14:13)

And then in the Golden Hour era, moving into working with Daniel Tashen and Ian Fitchhuk. And you enlisted both of those teams to write with for all this new material. And then you co produced and employed as your primary band Daniel Tashen and Ian Fitchuk. So how did that work? What did that look like? How did that help you kind of, you know, nail all the different specialties that you've developed with those collaborators?

Kacey Musgraves (14:47)

Yeah, well, both sets of both crews are. Have different strong points, you know, neither is better than the other. They're just. They just bring different things to the table. And I was craving, like, I'll always love what I've done with Daniel and Ian. I mean, they are, like, they are true musicians through and through. I was craving some of the bite that I can achieve in some of those rooms with some of those other people, you know, for this thing specifically. And it was just fun. I had the time to just kind of amble, you know, just kind of see what was out there. There was no, like, pressing deadline or anything. So I was just like, hey, would you guys want to get together and write some, like, super country shit? You know, like, just. Even for. Just for fun, like, just see what we can get. I was like, I have all these titles I've been saving and, you know, I think it's going to be really tempting for a lot of people to say that. It's a return for me in a lot of ways. But I would also like to say, while I agree with some of that, I also want to say that I never left that, you know, and so, you know, I've never taken some stand. Saying I'm leaving country or like, whatever is a huge part of me. I don't think I could shake it if I even wanted to.

Julie Height (16:05)

I revisited the first sit down that we did back in 2013. The thing that really struck me about it was at that point in time, in that conversation, the publicists that you were working with were pulling you toward or really trying to strongly guide you toward talking about your devotion to the Nashville country, the Nashville centric country music industry. And I think that there are multiple realities that people might be conflating. And I wonder for you, how do you think of the difference between identifying with and participating in industry, community or format versus having a connection to musical tradition and living lineage?

Kacey Musgraves (17:02)

I mean, moving to Nashville back in 2008, you know, it completely changed my life. I think it was the best move I ever made. And I have a deep respect for the community here. I mean, that has never changed. That being said, regardless of what community is, I would. Wouldn't want to be beholden by that either. You know what I mean? So while I have always had to continue to respect and still very, very much do and feel part of it, I have always just wanted to make sure that the only compass I'm following is the one that feels right to me, whether that makes sense to the rest of the community or not.

Julie Height (17:45)

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of unencumbered mentality that I have picked up on.

Kacey Musgraves (17:51)

Well, I. I've seen, you know, I've seen people try and pretzel themselves into every ideal of the moving target that can be any industry, and it just does not bode well for them. You know, it might, it might. They might get lucky and strike gold in a small period and have a moment with that, but at the end of the day, you know, they don't really have that foundation to fall back on that has really let people know who they are. Because I don't know, and I just don't. I don't like that. And I think I was scared from an early age of like getting trapped in that.

Julie Height (18:24)

I was thinking about the geography of how you situate yourself and your music. I mean, that's always been kind of, you know, one defining facet of it, you know, beginning with kind of depicting this kind of small town Texas world, you know, but challenging simplistic portraits of that, you know, and then, I mean, eventually kind of playing, pulling in elements of Hollywood. And with Star Crossed and then with deeper, well, kind of moving into a different kind of pastoral space, it's giving more Greenwich Village kind of urban folk revival, kind of pastoral retreat. So what is appealing to you about returning your imagination to small town Texas with these 13 songs?

Kacey Musgraves (19:17)

Well, for me, sonically, it's always about exploring the borders of country music. I think this album has a lot to do with borders. And honestly, every album of mine, you know, because country shares fence lines with so many other styles, you know, and I'm really interested in where those two meet and them making something new, you know, Like, I love bluegrass, and there's. There's a little bit of that. There's, like, where country kind of meets bluegrass, then, you know, there's your sort of, like, kind of nostalgic, kind of breezy, 70s, 80s, 90s country that I love so much. And then there's also a lane where, like, country meets things like traditional Mexican music, nortegno, and even zydeco down into Louisiana. And, like, in a way, like, I don't think the record is any different than anything else I've done, but it does lean a little harder into the country palette, you know what I mean?

Julie Height (20:10)

You mentioned the western swing and stuff that you came up on. I wonder how present was Mexican regional music in your Texas upbringing.

Kacey Musgraves (20:22)

God, we're neighbors, you know what I mean? And so hearing those sounds come out of radios whizzing by or just in my environment in either, like, my small town or in Fort Worth or Dallas, you know. Yeah, it's definitely a very real part of Texas culture. And, you know, the truth is, Texas would not be Texas without Mexico in many ways. And though I've always been drawn to it, I've been really fortunate to get to really experience that firsthand myself down there. Seeing a lot of the, you know, vaquero and, like, rodeo culture and, like, where it comes from, and seeing how far back it goes and seeing, like, the direct influence that it has had as it's worked its way into our Texas western culture. And I just have a lot of great respect for it. And whenever you really listen to, like, traditional mariachi music and you listen to traditional country, the themes are the same. The instrumentation is quite largely the same. It's coming from the same heart in the same place, just slightly different regions. And I wanted to really explore, like, that kinship, you know? And I think, like, a lot of people don't know this about me, but I spend half my life living in Mexico, and I. That's where I go to decompress, to reconnect with the physical world. I live in my head a lot, and it's just. There's a pace there that feels very down to earth and very simple and very primal and very free. And I just, like, really. I really need it. And so I think through osmosis, not only from just growing up where I did, but just in my adult life and being around that, I think it has, like, just worked its way into the music. And, you know, I mean, we can

Julie Height (22:08)

certainly follow the thread in your work, from the version of a Chilean folk song that you. That you included in Star Cross, to doing, to collaborations with Cuco Khalil, you know, paying tribute to Selena, Houston Rodeo, Mexico City, you know, those kinds of things, and then incorporating some Tejano textures on. On this album. So definitely, I definitely had. Had seen you Seen your interest, your focus on. On that growing. And I wondered if it was more about, you know, exploring the history, connecting with the audience, you know, what kinds of dots you were seeking to connect.

Kacey Musgraves (22:50)

Right, right. It's. It's like there's such a shared kinship with the subject matter. And, like, you know, like, the songs in the. It's. It's their version. Traditional mariachi music is their version of our traditional country music. Basically, it's their folkloric country, so to speak. And it's just so passionate and colorful and beautiful and full of emotion, and it's sung with such gusto. I mean, you gotta. Basically, when you're singing those songs, you gotta sound like you're bleeding out on the ground. And, like, it's. It's a challenge for me because it's. I don't sing like that in my own music. Like, I'm very. It's chill and it's kind of restrained and it's. Whatever. So learning some of those songs has, like, pushed me to tap back into some of that more guttural, like, singing with a bit more zest and, like, gusto and meaning behind it. Because if you deliver it chillax, it ain't gonna translate. I think in this modern time that we're in, like, I think, like, showing, like, I really wanna go and extra mile to, like, really show the Mexican culture, like, that I really deeply appreciate it, that I see it, that it matters, and that it's ultimately, like, in ways that I wasn't even aware of, influenced me as a person, who I am and the music that I make today.

Julie Height (24:06)

You know, I just mentioned a couple of the duets that you've done over time. I mean, Colleen Leone, Cuco. I mean, Zach, Bryan. There are so many others that just show how broad your musical interests are kind of across the pop landscape. I mean, Miguel and just so many Flaming Lips, when I was going Rainbow Kitten. Surprise. Yeah. So all of that, over many years, kind of demonstrated that you're kind of moving through, engaging with this kind of broad musical landscape. And then on this album, I mean, you have a number of different guests, but I think particularly the pairing with. Doing another song with Willie Nelson and doing this duet, Horses and divorces with Miranda Lambert. It feels like those kind of situate you in a different way than many of the pairings that you've done over the last many years. I mean, what does teaming up with these other kind of towering figures of Texas country music mean for you, right here, right now, where you are?

Kacey Musgraves (25:25)

Well, sometimes I feel like country music is very eager to accept people from other genres partaking in our world. And the same lenience is not shown for people who have started or been rooted in country and are inspired to explore some of those same other genres,

Julie Height (25:45)

especially if those artists happen to be women.

Kacey Musgraves (25:47)

That's my observation, 100%. It can be seen in some sort of, like, Trader Light or whatever. And for me, no matter who I'm collabing with, my viewpoint on it is that I'm bringing people to country. I'm not leaving anything. It's bringing it to a wider audience and people that may not have known about it or known that they would actually like it in the first place. Willie. I had to have Willie on this song. I know it's not a new thing that I have collaborated with him, but he's like the patriarch of truth in so many ways. And it was important for him to be the narrator on that song for me, because that song, uncertain Texas, while it is about a real town in East Texas, very, very small, I had fun imagining that it's this place where actually people can never really, actually make up their mind. Like, I'm like, is everybody uncertain in uncertain Texas? Like, is it a town full of fuckboys? Like, in this world where, like, accountability is optional, and you just swipe, swipe, and swipe and swipe to the next option. The song is, like. Is an acknowledgement of that very transient behavior, modern dating behavior, after kind of what I went through. And I was like, the perfect person to help throw a little bit of shade to that. Is everybody's favorite grandpa Willie Nelson. Also favorite grandpa gangster Willie Nelson. And then, yeah, the collab with Miranda, There's a whole story there.

Julie Height (27:16)

Well, I mean, I certainly was aware that way back, you know, we're talking a decade and a half ago, roughly. I mean, when you were approaching releasing your first major label album, you know, you'd written a song, and she wound up getting to record it, put it on her album. So I know that was the distant history. Yeah, but it does seem distant at this point.

Kacey Musgraves (27:44)

It is distant. There is no active beef. But it's also had been years and years and years since we had really even interacted with Each other. But, yeah, there's a lot of that. It's like it was two singers from two nearby small Texas towns. We each take our own different paths, both leading us to Nashville at different times. And then, yeah, like, there was all this excitement behind Mama's Working Heart for me, and it was gonna be my first single. And I loved the song so much. And I had been a staff writer for years at that point, like, writing for other people, and had finally felt like I was collecting songs that felt like me that I didn't wanna pitch to anyone else. And then, you know, the song gets pitched to her without my consent or even knowledge. And, like, it was a tricky situation. She ended up loving the song and she really wanted it, and I had other co writers to consider, and I knew I would have to go back to the drawing board. And ultimately, I'm really glad that I did because it forced me to write Merry Go Round, which ended up making way more sense for me anyways, aesthetically and lyrically to kick my whole thing off versus mom's broken heart. And that ended up going number one for her. So, really, in the end, everyone won because I was able to let go of something. And so that taught me a lot about, you know, letting go. Like, you have to believe that if there's magic there in the first place that you're part of, there's the. The opportunity for that. Magic still exists somewhere else. You just have to spend a little bit of time trying to find it. And so we'd lost touch for years and wouldn't. Wouldn't consider each other friends. And then, yeah, I saw her on Instagram or something one day, like, riding one of her horses or something, and I was like, well, we ain't friends, but I guess we have two things in common. Horses and divorces. That's for sure. You know? And I was like, wait, that could be a really funny song. And then I was like, wait, what if it's a duet with her? What if I got her to write on? Just like, what if? So I was like, fuck it. I just randomly reached out to her and I was like, hey, I have this idea, and if anybody would get it, it would be you. Like, are you around? So I call her and I'm just like, hey, I know we've had our shit over the years, but listen, we've at least got two things in common. I'm not trying to be your friend. You know, you got your life, I have mine. But I think this would be a pretty fucking funny song. And we should write it with Shane. And she was like, hell, yeah, I'm in. Let's do it. So it was very full circle in so many ways. We aired out any of the old past laundry. We, you know, had some laughs and wrote the song in, like, a matter of a few hours.

Julie Height (30:07)

It is kind of an epic pairing since you're both veteran Texas country artists in your own lanes.

Kacey Musgraves (30:15)

It's really real, and I think it's connected. Could be also, like a micro representation of what I kind of wish that the world would do sometimes is just fucking sit down and say, look, you're different in this way. Poke fun at each other, have a beer and just fucking call it a day.

Julie Height (30:29)

I'm excited that we're gonna get. We're about to get a little taste of the visual aesthetic. How are you fleshing out the way to embody and present this. This chapter, this body of work?

Kacey Musgraves (30:44)

I mean, I think that it's about taking these very intrinsic things that almost go unnoticed where I'm either from or, like, you know, in my past. Those pieces of Texas and I guess country life that often gets overlooked because it's so mundane. It's not trying to convince anyone that it is overly country or western, because that's what can make something feel cliche or. Or overplayed. But it's just about finding those little elements that are so mundane that they're so overlooked sometimes. Have you seen the album cover? Did we show it to you?

Julie Height (31:21)

No, I don't think. No.

Kacey Musgraves (31:23)

Well, it's projected on the wall out here, but my sister took those photos in Dallas one day, and haters are gonna say that that bull is AI, but it's definitely not. We had my friend Evan bring a bull from his ranch, and we just rode around Dallas and would quickly get out and try to block off our own traffic with some cones and just take. We'd had no apart. And, like, at one point, the police came up and they were like, do y' all need any help? We were like, literally in downtown Dallas. We found this big white wall. And we were like, no, we're good. And they were like, all right. They just like, let us do our thing. Oh, and one other thing is, you know, during this kind of single open air kind of time period, I wound up in Austin one night and, you know, I went out to, like, a super divey dance hall and there was a live country band playing. And it was just really. It was really nice to see so many different kinds of people having the best time decked out in their Western wear. And it was like hot Latino couples. It was like hot black cowboys. It was like older white cowboys dancing with like younger, younger cowgirls. Like, and everybody was having such a good time dancing with each other. And I was like, damn, America needs a two step together. Like, America needs to be out on the dance floor. It's really a, it's a great equalizer and it's where your kind of your differences sort of melt away. And the one goal is to connect via music and have fun and move your body. And it made me really inspired to infuse some of that Texas dance hall feeling and rhythms into the record.

Kacey Musgraves (singing) (32:55)

Ain't nobody's tool up in my shed Ain't nobody's boots under my bed Ain't nobody's truck up in my drive For a late night call for a real good thing.

Ann Powers (33:10)

That was reporter Julie Height chatting with Casey Musgraves about her upcoming album Middle of Nowhere, which is out May 1st. Thanks for joining us for this special Saturday episode. It was produced by Noah Caldwell and edited by Jacob Gans. I'm Ann Powers. Till next time,

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