Podcast Summary: All Songs Considered – "Is John Williams the GOAT?"
Episode Information:
- Title: Is John Williams the GOAT?
- Host/Author: NPR's All Songs Considered
- Release Date: July 13, 2025
Introduction In this episode of All Songs Considered, Robin Hilton, along with Scott Detrow and producer Mark Rivers, delves into an engaging and spirited debate on whether legendary composer John Williams deserves the title of the Greatest of All Time (GOAT) in film scoring. The conversation explores Williams' iconic contributions, his influence on the industry, and comparisons with other notable composers.
John Williams’ Iconic Contributions Scott Detrow initiates the discussion by highlighting the instant recognition of Williams' music:
"There are certain bars of music and even just a blip of them will do the trick that immediately put me and I'm pretty sure millions of other people in a very specific headspace." [00:15]
He references famous themes such as the dramatic brass of Star Wars, the adventurous march of Indiana Jones, and the awe-inspiring score of Jurassic Park, emphasizing how Williams' compositions are deeply intertwined with these beloved film franchises.
Mark Rivers adds to this by noting Williams’ unique position in the industry:
"John Williams... has become kind of synonymous with the act of film composing." [03:57]
He further explains that Williams’ work represents "capital M movies," embodying the romantic ideal of cinema that transports audiences to different worlds.
Arguments for John Williams as the GOAT Mark Rivers and Robin Hilton present compelling reasons supporting Williams' status as the GOAT. Rivers points out Williams' timelessness and the universal appeal of his music:
"There's a real classical timelessness to John Williams music. I think there's a reason why that they still perform them in these concert venues, because it has an accessibility that kind of transcends any kind of decade." [09:10]
Robin Hilton shares a personal connection, reminiscing about how Williams’ music shaped her childhood:
"He gets his hooks into you when you're a kid. He scored my entire childhood. Right. My life was full of all this magic and awe and wonder because of him." [05:13]
Additionally, the trio discusses Williams' mastery of leitmotifs—musical themes that represent characters or concepts—which enhances the storytelling in films:
"This is Yoda theme. This is Yoda and Dagobah... the Imperial March, you see the stormtroopers marching." [11:25]
Counterpoints and Criticisms Despite the admiration, Scott Detrow and Robin Hilton introduce critical perspectives on Williams’ work. Hilton argues that Williams often borrows heavily from other composers:
"I think it's fair to say that he has borrowed pretty heavily from other composers... like, have you heard Dvorak Symphony Number nine? It's straight up Jaws." [06:24]
She also points out that while Williams has composed for over 100 movies, only a dozen or so are truly iconic, suggesting that much of his work tends to be "safe" and "by the book":
"I think it's Fair to say that apart from his most iconic work, his music's pretty safe." [07:18]
Mark Rivers acknowledges these points but emphasizes the sheer volume and impact of Williams’ most memorable scores:
"Most composers are lucky to have just one theme that hit the hesitis... the fact that John Williams has maybe up to a dozen iconic scores is..." [07:33]
Comparisons with Other Composers The conversation shifts to comparisons with other influential composers. Hilton mentions Bernard Hermann and Ennio Morricone as significant figures who have also left a profound impact on film music:
"Bernard Herman... Ennio Morricone... who had an equally prolific career, equally iconic, instantly recognizable melodies." [05:18]
They explore whether contemporary composers like Hans Zimmer or emerging talents can match Williams' legacy. While acknowledging their contributions, the panel expresses skepticism about whether these composers can achieve the same level of timelessness and cultural integration as Williams:
"I don't think we'll have another composer that will personify the movies the way John Williams did." [19:53]
However, they recognize the evolving landscape of film scoring and the potential for new talents to emerge as influential figures in the future.
Emotional Resonance and Legacy A significant portion of the discussion centers on the emotional impact of Williams’ music. Scenarios from Jaws, E.T., and Jurassic Park are cited as instances where the score elevates the cinematic experience:
"The score was the Shark. That movie is impossible to imagine without that music." [15:53]
Hilton echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the lasting impressions Williams’ melodies leave on listeners:
"Those melodies and those songs made those movies. Without John Williams there's like Star wars is not Star wars without John Williams score." [15:41]
They agree that Williams’ ability to evoke deep emotional responses through his music is a cornerstone of his enduring legacy.
Future of Film Composition Looking ahead, the panel discusses the future of film scoring and whether upcoming composers can reach Williams’ stature. While acknowledging the talents of current composers like Michael Giacchino and Hans Zimmer, they express the view that Williams' unique blend of melody, timelessness, and emotional depth sets a high bar:
"Like the Beatles defining a field, but might not be the greatest of all time." [22:05]
They ponder whether the fragmented nature of modern media consumption will allow for another composer to achieve similar widespread recognition and cultural significance.
Conclusion The episode concludes with an appreciation for John Williams' monumental contributions to film music while recognizing the challenges in definitively naming him the GOAT. The panel reflects on Williams' unparalleled ability to create memorable, emotionally resonant scores that have become inseparable from the films they accompany. Despite acknowledging other influential composers, the consensus leans towards Williams' exceptional legacy and the unique mark he has left on the world of cinema.
Notable Quotes:
- Mark Rivers [03:57]: "John Williams is on Mount Rushmore. He's on the Rushmore."
- Robin Hilton [05:13]: "The first album I ever bought when I was a little kid... was the Soundtrack to Jaws."
- Scott Detrow [10:13]: "If you had to pick one score theme that you feel like gets to the essence of what he's done, what would it be?... I land on the Raiders theme."
- Robin Hilton [15:38]: "I think he has given us some of the most indelible melodies in films of all time."
- Mark Rivers [22:25]: "There's gonna never be another we need."
Final Thoughts This episode of All Songs Considered offers a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of John Williams' place in the pantheon of film composers. Through insightful discussions and heartfelt anecdotes, the panel provides listeners with a deeper understanding of what makes Williams' work so extraordinary, while also inviting consideration of the broader landscape of film music.