Is John Williams the GOAT?

Summary

Podcast Summary: All Songs Considered – "Is John Williams the GOAT?"

Episode Information:

• Title: Is John Williams the GOAT?
• Host/Author: NPR's All Songs Considered
• Release Date: July 13, 2025

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Introduction In this episode of All Songs Considered, Robin Hilton, along with Scott Detrow and producer Mark Rivers, delves into an engaging and spirited debate on whether legendary composer John Williams deserves the title of the Greatest of All Time (GOAT) in film scoring. The conversation explores Williams' iconic contributions, his influence on the industry, and comparisons with other notable composers.

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John Williams’ Iconic Contributions Scott Detrow initiates the discussion by highlighting the instant recognition of Williams' music:

"There are certain bars of music and even just a blip of them will do the trick that immediately put me and I'm pretty sure millions of other people in a very specific headspace." [00:15]

He references famous themes such as the dramatic brass of Star Wars, the adventurous march of Indiana Jones, and the awe-inspiring score of Jurassic Park, emphasizing how Williams' compositions are deeply intertwined with these beloved film franchises.

Mark Rivers adds to this by noting Williams’ unique position in the industry:

"John Williams... has become kind of synonymous with the act of film composing." [03:57]

He further explains that Williams’ work represents "capital M movies," embodying the romantic ideal of cinema that transports audiences to different worlds.

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Arguments for John Williams as the GOAT Mark Rivers and Robin Hilton present compelling reasons supporting Williams' status as the GOAT. Rivers points out Williams' timelessness and the universal appeal of his music:

"There's a real classical timelessness to John Williams music. I think there's a reason why that they still perform them in these concert venues, because it has an accessibility that kind of transcends any kind of decade." [09:10]

Robin Hilton shares a personal connection, reminiscing about how Williams’ music shaped her childhood:

"He gets his hooks into you when you're a kid. He scored my entire childhood. Right. My life was full of all this magic and awe and wonder because of him." [05:13]

Additionally, the trio discusses Williams' mastery of leitmotifs—musical themes that represent characters or concepts—which enhances the storytelling in films:

"This is Yoda theme. This is Yoda and Dagobah... the Imperial March, you see the stormtroopers marching." [11:25]

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Counterpoints and Criticisms Despite the admiration, Scott Detrow and Robin Hilton introduce critical perspectives on Williams’ work. Hilton argues that Williams often borrows heavily from other composers:

"I think it's fair to say that he has borrowed pretty heavily from other composers... like, have you heard Dvorak Symphony Number nine? It's straight up Jaws." [06:24]

She also points out that while Williams has composed for over 100 movies, only a dozen or so are truly iconic, suggesting that much of his work tends to be "safe" and "by the book":

"I think it's Fair to say that apart from his most iconic work, his music's pretty safe." [07:18]

Mark Rivers acknowledges these points but emphasizes the sheer volume and impact of Williams’ most memorable scores:

"Most composers are lucky to have just one theme that hit the hesitis... the fact that John Williams has maybe up to a dozen iconic scores is..." [07:33]

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Comparisons with Other Composers The conversation shifts to comparisons with other influential composers. Hilton mentions Bernard Hermann and Ennio Morricone as significant figures who have also left a profound impact on film music:

"Bernard Herman... Ennio Morricone... who had an equally prolific career, equally iconic, instantly recognizable melodies." [05:18]

They explore whether contemporary composers like Hans Zimmer or emerging talents can match Williams' legacy. While acknowledging their contributions, the panel expresses skepticism about whether these composers can achieve the same level of timelessness and cultural integration as Williams:

"I don't think we'll have another composer that will personify the movies the way John Williams did." [19:53]

However, they recognize the evolving landscape of film scoring and the potential for new talents to emerge as influential figures in the future.

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Emotional Resonance and Legacy A significant portion of the discussion centers on the emotional impact of Williams’ music. Scenarios from Jaws, E.T., and Jurassic Park are cited as instances where the score elevates the cinematic experience:

"The score was the Shark. That movie is impossible to imagine without that music." [15:53]

Hilton echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the lasting impressions Williams’ melodies leave on listeners:

"Those melodies and those songs made those movies. Without John Williams there's like Star wars is not Star wars without John Williams score." [15:41]

They agree that Williams’ ability to evoke deep emotional responses through his music is a cornerstone of his enduring legacy.

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Future of Film Composition Looking ahead, the panel discusses the future of film scoring and whether upcoming composers can reach Williams’ stature. While acknowledging the talents of current composers like Michael Giacchino and Hans Zimmer, they express the view that Williams' unique blend of melody, timelessness, and emotional depth sets a high bar:

"Like the Beatles defining a field, but might not be the greatest of all time." [22:05]

They ponder whether the fragmented nature of modern media consumption will allow for another composer to achieve similar widespread recognition and cultural significance.

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Conclusion The episode concludes with an appreciation for John Williams' monumental contributions to film music while recognizing the challenges in definitively naming him the GOAT. The panel reflects on Williams' unparalleled ability to create memorable, emotionally resonant scores that have become inseparable from the films they accompany. Despite acknowledging other influential composers, the consensus leans towards Williams' exceptional legacy and the unique mark he has left on the world of cinema.

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Notable Quotes:

• Mark Rivers [03:57]: "John Williams is on Mount Rushmore. He's on the Rushmore."
• Robin Hilton [05:13]: "The first album I ever bought when I was a little kid... was the Soundtrack to Jaws."
• Scott Detrow [10:13]: "If you had to pick one score theme that you feel like gets to the essence of what he's done, what would it be?... I land on the Raiders theme."
• Robin Hilton [15:38]: "I think he has given us some of the most indelible melodies in films of all time."
• Mark Rivers [22:25]: "There's gonna never be another we need."

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Final Thoughts This episode of All Songs Considered offers a comprehensive and nuanced exploration of John Williams' place in the pantheon of film composers. Through insightful discussions and heartfelt anecdotes, the panel provides listeners with a deeper understanding of what makes Williams' work so extraordinary, while also inviting consideration of the broader landscape of film music.

Transcript

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[Robin Hilton]

It's All Songs Considered. I'm Robin Hilton. Summer blockbuster season is well underway. We've got a lot of big movies out right now. There's Jurassic World, Rebirth. There's, there's a new Superman movie, even got a 50th anniversary version of Jaws that's coming to theaters, that's coming out in August. You can't really think of these movies without thinking about John Williams and all of the amazing music that he has done over the years for these big film franchises and, of course, for so much more. And given how big he is and how present his music is and how important it is to so many people, we started asking a question that maybe a lot of music geeks have asked, and that is whether or not John Williams is the greatest film composer of all time. So weekend ALL THINGS CONSIDERED host Scott Detrow asked me to join him and producer Mark Rivers to talk about it. This is an extended version of our conversation. You could call it a director's cut of what originally aired on WEEKEND ALL THINGS considered. Here's Scott.

[Scott Detrow]

There are certain bars of music and even just a blip of them will do the trick that immediately put me and I'm pretty sure millions of other people in a very specific headspace.

[Mark Rivers]

From.

[Scott Detrow]

That first blast of brass. You are in a galaxy far, far away reading a scroll of text that is somehow zipping across outer space. Or this march puts you in the mindset of a globetrotting whip cracking adventure. And I will mention one more the swelling score that puts me in a place of wonder with images of people reacting to seeing dinosaurs with their own eyes for the very first time. These film scores are among the most iconic in history, and they are all the work of one man, John Williams. Best known for his collaborations with Steven Spielberg and George Lucas, Williams has created a body of work that generations of moviegoers can recognize with just a couple notes at the movie theater this summer, you will hear echoes of his work in the new Superman and Jurassic park movies, two franchises that are totally inseparable from Williams themes, even if other composers are doing most of the legwork on these current sequel scores. So we thought now is as good a time as any to discuss this legendary film composer. We brought in NPR Music's Robin Hilton and All Things Considered producer Mark Rivers, who spearheads these Weekly movie Talks. Welcome to you both.

[Mark Rivers]

Hey, Scott.

[Robin Hilton]

Hey, Scott.

[Scott Detrow]

Let's start. I have built this up, and clearly my mind is made up.

[Mark Rivers]

But.

[Scott Detrow]

Mark, argument to be made that John Williams has composed the most recognizable themes in movie history. But is he the greatest film composer?

[Mark Rivers]

It's always hard to kind of gauge great, right? Or greatest. I mean, if we're talking about most awarded, you know, someone like Alfred Newman, he's won more Oscars, you know, nine. So John Williams is five. We're talking about, you know, most influential. Someone like Bernard Herman was probably more groundbreaking. But when I think about someone like John Williams, I think for generations of people, when you think of. You think John Williams in the same way you think. You know, when you think about basketball, you think Michael Jordan or inventor. You might think Edison. He's become kind of synonymous with the act of film composing. And for me, also John Williams, while other composers, you might think of a certain movie or movies. With John Williams, I think of the movies. You know, capital M movies.

[Scott Detrow]

Decades of movies.

[Mark Rivers]

Yeah. And just like the romantic ideal of where movies are supposed to take you, of what movies are supposed to be, they're supposed to take you someplace. They transport you somewhere. And I think John Williams work kind of embodies that. And, you know, in the same way that Spielberg's best stuff has kind of tapped into the inner child in all of us, you know, Williams best music taps into that inner child as well. So when you hear his music, you're kind of like hearing a part of yourself. So I think if you take in all of that, you know, there's a solid case to be made that he is the goat. Maybe not definitive, but solid.

[Scott Detrow]

So, Robin, Mark, and I are just guys with opinions. You actually host a music podcast. You actually compose yourself.

[Mark Rivers]

He's the only one here who actually knows what he's talking about.

[Robin Hilton]

Yes. To be clear, I got to say.

[Scott Detrow]

We'Re just saying professionals, we have obviously laid out our point of view. What do you make of it? Is John Williams the Goat when you're talking about moving composers?

[Robin Hilton]

I mean, it depends on what we're judging. I mean, are we talking most prolific, most influential, most innovative, or maybe just most beloved? I mean, for me, honestly, I adore John Williams. Kind of like what you were saying, Mark. He gets his hooks into you when you're a kid. He scored my entire childhood. Right. My life was full of all this magic and awe and wonder because of him. Actually, the first album I ever bought when I was a little kid in elementary school was the Soundtrack to Jaws.

[Scott Detrow]

Really?

[Robin Hilton]

I'm not kidding. I bought it on eight track.

[Mark Rivers]

Little Light Saturday Listening.

[Scott Detrow]

Pluck that eight track in pop.

[Robin Hilton]

That eight track in that movie lived in my head for years before I was ever old enough to even see it. I think he's brilliant, but I think there are way too many other composers in this conversation that you have to consider before you would ever call him the greatest of all time. Mark mentioned Bernard Herman, the work he did with Alfred Hitchcock in particular. He completely upended the way Hollywood thinks about scores.

[Mark Rivers]

Who else?

[Robin Hilton]

Well, I would say Ennio Morricone. You have to think about him. You know, he is someone who had an equally prolific career, equally iconic, instantly recognizable melodies. When you think of particularly of all the stuff he did with Sergio Leone. And, you know, also, I think as much as I love John Williams and as brilliant as I think he is, I think there's some legitimate criticisms of his work.

[Scott Detrow]

What are they?

[Robin Hilton]

Well, I think it's fair to say that he has borrowed pretty heavily from other composers. This is a complaint that you can make about a lot of film composers, to be fair. But like, have you heard Dvorak Symphony Number nine? It's straight up Jaws.

[Mark Rivers]

I have not.

[Robin Hilton]

It is straight up Jaws.

[Scott Detrow]

Oh, wow.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah, right?

[Scott Detrow]

Oh, wow.

[Robin Hilton]

And, you know, there are parts of the ET Score that I think are right out of Herman's Psycho score. And there are many other examples, you know, like Star wars pulling from Gustav holster planets or Close Encounters, cribbing from the Getty's Atmospheres, you know, but also, like, you know, John Williams, he's done like over 100 movies, right? Yeah, but out of those hundred movies, like maybe a half a dozen to a dozen are truly only a half.

[Scott Detrow]

Only a half a dozen.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh, come on. I mean. All right, so you got Jaws, Star Wars, Superman, ET, Indiana Jones and Jurassic Park. That's a great run. Harry Potter, Harry Potter's very beautiful.

[Mark Rivers]

And Robin. And Robin. Like, you know, most composers are lucky to have just one theme that hit the hesitis. Right. You think about someone like Lalo Schifrin who did the Mission Impossible theme. We all know that one. But does anyone know the Amityville horror theme? The fact that John Williams has maybe up to a dozen iconic scores is.

[Robin Hilton]

We're also talking about stuff of many, many years ago. Like, now let's start talking about the last 10 years. 20 years, 30 years. Yeah. Again, I love John Williams, but I also don't know, do you? I really, really, really do. I, I, I also think it's Fair to say that apart from his most iconic work, his music's pretty safe. You know, it's pretty by the book. It's very often, like, right on the nose, really tugging at your heartstrings. I think it's honestly, he and Steven Spielberg go together so well because Steven Spielberg's movies are very much the same way. Brilliant up to a point, and then kind of in need of an editor. You know, they get a little schmaltzy, a little corny.

[Mark Rivers]

There's some small, some sense. But I think. I think when you're saying traditional, you know, it's classical. Right. You know, I think there's a timelessness to John Williams best work in a way that you would like. When you hear, let's say, the composer Vangelis. Right. Like, when you hear that work, music in Chariots of Fire, like, you're immediately. This is the 80s, and it can't be any other decade but the 80s.

[Scott Detrow]

Yeah. You just want to start running.

[Mark Rivers]

Are you thinking about the. You think about those jazz scores that we have, like in like, the mid-60s, like those. Those pieces you kind of. You can't really take out of or out of the decades that they were released. But there's a real classical timelessness to John Williams music. I think there's a reason why that they still perform them in these concert venues, because it has an accessibility that kind of transcends any kind of decade.

[Scott Detrow]

I have a thought and a question, and one thing I've been thinking a lot about, and I truly don't know the answer is how much, like, we're talking a lot about the emotional reaction that you get. How much of it is intricately tied up with. You are imagining that movie, you are imagining that scene, and how much of it would stand on itself. Like, I've heard John Williams scores pieces being played at, like, Fourth of July concerts or something like that, and that's still a nice feeling. But you're thinking of E.T. you're thinking of Raiders. But the thing I wanted to ask everybody is if you had to pick one score theme that you feel like gets to the essence of what he's done, what would it be? I think for me, I go back and forth between Superman and Indiana Jones, but I think I land on the Raiders theme.

[Robin Hilton]

Really Interesting.

[Mark Rivers]

What a.

[Scott Detrow]

Seems like you disagree.

[Mark Rivers]

Well, go ahead. No, go ahead, Robin.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, I mean, I think his most accomplished score is. Is Close Encounters. Yeah, it. It is so intricate. It's vast. It's. It's incredibly complex. And by the way, he did Close Encounters the same year. He did Star wars hall of Fame year. Hall of Fame year. I mean, he's had other years like that. He did Jurassic park and Schindler's List in the same year as well. But I guess if the essence of William's art is his ability to really make you feel something and really get in your bones and be a part of your DNA forever, then for me, it's forever and always. ET.

[Scott Detrow]

Yeah.

[Mark Rivers]

And I think when I think about what makes John Williams special, I think about his use of leitmotifs. This is, you know, essentially just a musical theme that corresponds to a person or situation. And, you know, Scott, when you hear this music, what do you envision? This is Yoda theme. This is Yoda. It's Yoda and Dagobah. And it's Yoda and Dagobah. And, you know, if you hear the Imperial March, you see the stormtroopers marching. You see Darth Vader. So I think it's that ability to just conjure the movies without you having even watched them that makes Williams work so special.

[Scott Detrow]

Yeah. And a related question not quite the same question is, I'm wondering what to each of you is the most, or maybe Robin, maybe it's the exact same answer for you when you're talking about E.T. but, like, what. What gives you the most emotional, immediate resonance? And I think for me, that would be the Jurassic park theme. Like the first time in the movie where it really comes to a head when they see the dinosaurs for the first time and you have that gif.

[Mark Rivers]

Yeah.

[Scott Detrow]

They stand up at the Jeep and their jaws drop and you just hear, hear it swell like that. That will always get me.

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[Robin Hilton]

Have you heard people saying things like palm colored people? That would be white people or unalive, depending on context. It could be kill, murder, suicide, anything related to death. Listen to how self censorship online impacts the way we talk about real life issues. That's on code switch from npr, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mark Rivers]

Well, this is probably not an unexpected take, but I think about the end credits music in Minority Report. Kind of underappreciated film from Spielberg in 2002. And you know, the most of that music is very kind of anxious and there's some electronic work going on. But this last theme I think is just textbook Williams. Just these kind of warm and melodic kind of strings. And it's so unexpected in the movie. And it was also the last movie that I watched with my grandfather. And so whenever I hear it, I always kind of think of him. But that music to me always kind of, always kind of always gets me.

[Robin Hilton]

I think for John Williams, his greatest gift is the gift of melody. I think he has given us some of the most indelible melodies in films of all time.

[Mark Rivers]

Indelible and hummable. You know, you can, you can actually. You can hum them.

[Robin Hilton]

And I will say that those melodies and those songs made those movies. Oh yeah, like with, with. Without John Williams there's like Star wars is not Star wars without John Williams score. And true of in many cases.

[Mark Rivers]

And you think about something like Jaws, which I now realize he definitely riffed on about previous composers. You think about a score like Jaws, you know, and that movie, that movie production, notoriously the Shark didn't work and ultimately Spielberg didn't need to make it work because the score kind of became the Shark. The score was the Shark. That movie is impossible to imagine without that music.

[Robin Hilton]

Which is why I say that it lived in my head for years before I ever even saw the movie.

[Scott Detrow]

I like this idea of young Yu listening to the theme over and over having not seen the movie.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh well. There was also that incredible photo on the movie. The movie poster. Right. So I had that image in my head. So when you think of melody, for me, the melody that grabs me the most is maybe the main thing to Schindler's List, like instant tears.

[Scott Detrow]

Is there any that you feel like are underrated or not brought up in the conversation that should be more. I think the theme from Hook is a good one. Hook is a very. It might just be my exact age.

[Mark Rivers]

I don't return to that movie often enough.

[Scott Detrow]

I think that's because I'm 10 years older than you and I'm younger than you. I think. I think it's a very narrow bandwidth of people that movie speaks to and I'm in it. But it's a good. It's good. The flying theme.

[Mark Rivers]

I will return to that. I mean, not. I mean, maybe not underappreciated because this was also one of his many Oscar nominations, but the work that he does for Saving Private Ryan, I mean, if that doesn't get you to feel patriotic about America, I don't know what will.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah, there's another one in the. It's called the Chairman's Waltz from Memoirs of a Geisha. That is really, really gorgeous. Sam.

[Scott Detrow]

The movies are a lot different now. The monoculture is like basically non existent, which we talk a lot about. Robin. I'm wondering, do you think there are any composers out there right now who could become as synonymous with films as John Williams has been?

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah, I mean, I think there already are.

[Mark Rivers]

Hot take, very hot take. Scalding hot take right here.

[Robin Hilton]

I mean, like Michael Cicchino, who did the most recent Batman movie. Or Up. That instantly recognizable melody from Up. I think, you know, there's Hans Zimmer. All this stuff that, that all the big action movies.

[Mark Rivers]

These guys have been around for a while, though. We're talking the next.

[Robin Hilton]

Okay, true. That's true. All right, so I was thinking about, like, all right, who could we be talking about, you know, 20. Well, not us, but, you know, who will people be talking about in 20 years? I think you have to think about Hilder Guna Doter, who very famously won the Oscar for the Joker score.

[Mark Rivers]

Haven't thought about that score since.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh, my God, that score's incredible.

[Mark Rivers]

Haven't thought about since.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh, my God. You have to think of Mika Levy. Mika Levy, groundbreaking work. Neither of them have done a ton.

[Mark Rivers]

Yet, but I think also terrifying stuff you would not want to listen to on your downtime.

[Scott Detrow]

Can I say one thing to that? In this moment where a new Superman movie is out, I appreciate Hans Zimmer. Head to head competition of Superman themes. Hans Zimmer and John Williams, there's a clear winner there.

[Robin Hilton]

Okay. I think I like John Williams way more than Hans Zimmer, but I don't. But is Hans Zimmer synonymous with film scoring?

[Scott Detrow]

Sure, yeah.

[Mark Rivers]

He is synonymous with the bl. I mean, the composers you mentioned. Mika Levy makes music that's probably more akin to soundscapes. If you look at the. Listen to the music for Zone of Interest, that's like the Banshees of Hell. Reaching out to meet you. I don't know if we'll be listening to that on Saturday mornings. Same with Gnedotra. I mean, I don't know if 50 years from now we'll be listening to the music from Joker, you know, Come on. And I think, like you said, Scott, the culture's too different. I think the movies don't matter as much the way they used to when William Williams was at his height. And our relationship to the movies is so different now and so kind of fractured that I don't think we'll have another composer that will personify the movies the way John Williams did. And we didn't even get into the fact that Williams has also composed the music for NBC News.

[Scott Detrow]

The Olympics.

[Mark Rivers]

The Olympics. You know, Sunday night. Sunday Night Football. Like this. This guy.

[Robin Hilton]

Yes.

[Mark Rivers]

Yeah. Like, this guy has composed most. You know, this guy has composed part of America's soundtrack to me.

[Robin Hilton]

Here's the thing. Like a lot of people think, oh, John Williams burst onto the scene in the. In the 70s. When he did, he'd been slogging it out for decades at that point. Yeah, he was already in his mid to late 40s, like, pushing 50 when he hit that point in his career and suddenly had this massive breakthrough when he started collaborating with George Lucas and Steven Spielberg and changed everything. Fore. I want to say, by the way, in addition to reminding everyone I do love John Williams, that not calling him Williams hive or whatever, I do not want the Williams hive coming for me. No, I do love his work, but not calling him the greatest of all time does not diminishes what he's accomplished. It's amazing. He really is incredible.

[Mark Rivers]

And there'll never be another we need.

[Scott Detrow]

Like a goat parallel. For somebody who defines a. A field, but might not be the greatest of all time. I don't know. I'll work out.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah. I mean, he's.

[Mark Rivers]

I said. I said maybe. I mean, you know, people are going to say Michael is the greatest of.

[Robin Hilton]

All time, but like the Rushmore. I mean, is John Williams on the Mount Rushmore? Hundred thousand percent. He's on the Rushmore.

[Mark Rivers]

Yeah.

[Scott Detrow]

Robin Hilton, Mark Rivers, you're both on my Mount Rushmore of movie guests to talk about for these weekly conversations. Thanks to both of you.

[Mark Rivers]

Much appreciate it, Scott.

[Robin Hilton]

You're welcome. And if I still have a career after this, I hope I'm on again. That's weekend All Things Considered host Scott Detrow, producer Mark Rivers, and I talking about John Williams and his music. If you're new to All Songs Considered the podcast All Songs Considered. We drop new episodes every Tuesday. You'll find a bunch of other stuff in this feed as well, like Alt Latino on Wednesdays, New Music Friday, which, as you might guess, comes out on Fridays. Lots to discover in our archives as well. Check it all out. Thanks for listening. And from NPR Music, it's All Songs Considered. I'm Robin Hilton.

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