Saying 'goodbye' to SXSW Music

Summary

Summary of "Saying 'Goodbye' to SXSW Music" Episode of All Songs Considered

Released on March 25, 2025

---

Introduction

In this poignant episode of NPR's flagship music discovery program, Robin Hilton hosts a heartfelt discussion with Ann Powers, Stephen Thompson, and Carrie Brownstein as they bid farewell to the iconic South by Southwest (SXSW) Music Festival. The hosts reflect on the festival's nearly four-decade legacy, its unique role in music discovery, and the profound implications of its impending hiatus.

---

The Unique Essence of SXSW Music

Ann Powers initiates the conversation by announcing the significant news: while SXSW Music Festival is technically continuing, its scale is being drastically reduced, signaling the end of an era for what once was the world's largest music festival. Ann recounts personal connections, mentioning how she and Stephen first met at SXSW, highlighting the festival's role as a crucible for meaningful relationships in the music industry.

Stephen Thompson reminisces about his initial impressions of the festival:

“I remember walking into a room and seeing all these glamorous NPR people. I was so impressed.”
(00:24)

Carrie Brownstein adds her own memories, emphasizing the festival's role in discovering diverse and unexpected musical talents:

“I hold Don Walzer in my heart till I can hold you in my own.”
(08:35)

The trio discusses how SXSW differed from typical music festivals. Unlike other festivals confined to sprawling open fields with scattered stages, SXSW was deeply embedded within the Austin community. It sprawled across bars, coffee shops, theaters, and even convenience store doorways, creating an intricate tapestry of venues that fostered spontaneous discoveries and intimate performances.

Carrie elaborates:

“South by Southwest was sort of an industry discovery festival, taking place across dozens and dozens of bars, coffee shops, kind of makeshift venues...”
(05:55)

---

Memorable Discoveries and Experiences

The hosts share vivid anecdotes of unforgettable performances and the serendipitous nature of discovery at SXSW. Ann recalls witnessing an electrifying performance by the band Thick:

“They were laying waste to this little room... Thick put on the most incredible show.”
(09:49)

Stephen shares his experience of discovering Raphael Siddiq’s band during an unofficial set:

“It was full of kids on spring break just grooving to this guy. I was amazed by his talent spilling out of the room.”
(12:23)

Carrie highlights the emotional impact of witnessing emerging artists, mentioning her first encounter with Don Walzer and later discovering Phoebe Bridgers:

“I ended up recording a field recording with her before she was even signed.”
(13:11)

These stories underscore SXSW's unparalleled ability to serve as a launchpad for artists who would go on to achieve significant acclaim.

---

Challenges and the Decline of SXSW Music

The discussion shifts to the factors leading to SXSW Music's decline. Ann and Stephen identify several key issues:

1. COVID-19 Pandemic: The pandemic severely impacted festival operations, exacerbating existing challenges.

2. Overgrowth and Bloat: As SXSW expanded, it began catering to mainstream tastes with big-name acts, diluting its original focus on discovery and independent artists. Stephen observes:

   “South by Southwest had lost its utility. It was so expensive for smaller bands... the spirit of discovery... went by the wayside.”
   (18:19)

3. Corporate Sponsorship and Commercialization: The influx of big brands and corporate elements, such as the infamous 70-foot Doritos vending machine, introduced a commercial aspect that clashed with the festival's grassroots charm.

   “There was the Doritos vending machine... bands would play in the mouth of the vending machine like they were a snack being dispensed.”
   (18:36)

4. Safety Concerns and Tragedy: The tragic car crash in 2014, which resulted in four deaths, cast a shadow over the festival, highlighting safety issues amidst overcrowding and mass attendance.

   “In 2014, a car drove into a crowd... it cast a really heartbreaking pall over the festival.”
   (20:11)

Carrie further explains how these changes made navigation within the festival increasingly difficult:

“It felt like navigating through layers of festival, piled on top of festival, making it hard to find and experience the discovery aspect.”
(21:25)

---

Impact on the Music Industry and Artists

The hosts delve into the broader implications of SXSW's contraction on the music industry:

Ann raises concerns about the loss of a vital platform for emerging artists:

“With so much bloat, it just doesn't support the discovery of new artists the way it used to.”
(25:48)

Stephen contrasts the decline of SXSW with the rise of digital platforms like TikTok and Instagram, noting that while these platforms offer new avenues for discovery, they lack the tangible, communal experience of live performances:

“The physical experience of seeing an artist doesn’t seem as valued, which is really tragic.”
(25:48)

Carrie discusses the hollowing out of the middle class in the music industry, where the proliferation of music makes it increasingly difficult for non-superstar musicians to make a living:

“The decline of SXSW is accelerating the hollowing out of the working middle class in music...”
(30:19)

Stephen provides a glimmer of hope by mentioning other thriving festivals like Big Ears in Knoxville, Americana Fest in Nashville, and Folk Alliance, which continue to support artistic discovery and community engagement:

“There are great music festivals right now that are thriving... Big Ears, Americana Fest, and Folk Alliance.”
(31:27)

---

The Irreplaceable Communal Experience

A significant theme in the discussion is the loss of communal experiences inherent to festivals like SXSW. Ann emphasizes the intangible value of being part of a collective musical journey:

“There was massive value in being out in the mix, being part of a huge collective experience, and engaging with real music fans.”
(33:30)

Carrie echoes this sentiment, lamenting the absence of spaces where discovery-minded individuals can congregate and share diverse musical experiences:

“It's a real loss that there are fewer places to experience live music in a discovery sense.”
(27:07)

---

Looking Forward: Hope and Reconstruction

Despite the somber tone, the hosts express optimism about the potential for rebuilding and redefining music discovery platforms. Carrie believes in the enduring value of communal discovery and hopes for new initiatives that can replicate the unique SXSW experience:

“I really hope that something pops up to replace that experience.”
(27:07)

Stephen encourages locals to support regional music scenes, advocating for travel to music hubs like Austin during times outside the festival to sustain year-round musical engagement:

“Book a little trip to Austin... it's really fun.”
(28:36)

Carrie also commends the festival organizers for their efforts to keep SXSW on life support, expressing gratitude toward those who have maintained its legacy:

“People behind the festival have done such good work... they deserve our thanks.”
(35:07)

---

Celebrating SXSW's Legacy and Moving Forward

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts reflect on memorable moments and influential performances that defined SXSW's legacy. Ann shares a list of favorite bands discovered at the festival, including Mini Mansions, Bon Iver, and Vampire Weekend, highlighting the festival's role in shaping contemporary music landscapes:

“I saw Bon Iver in 2008 at her showcase... Vampire Weekend played that.”
(36:18)

Stephen acknowledges the enduring impact of SXSW's community and the personal and professional connections it fostered:

“It was lovely to walk down memory lane, even if memory lane was sometimes crowded full of drunk kids on spring break.”
(38:38)

Carrie concludes with a tribute to the festival's founders and the countless artists who dedicated their passion to making SXSW a beacon for music discovery:

“Thank you to the people who've put on this festival... they really deserve our thanks.”
(35:57)

---

Conclusion

"Saying 'Goodbye' to SXSW Music" serves as a heartfelt farewell to a festival that was instrumental in shaping the music industry over nearly forty years. Through personal anecdotes, critical analysis, and emotional reflections, All Songs Considered pays tribute to SXSW's unparalleled role in fostering musical discovery and community. As the festival faces its uncertain future, the episode underscores the need for new platforms and communal spaces to continue nurturing emerging talent and the shared joy of live music.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Stephen Thompson: “I remember walking into a room and seeing all these glamorous NPR people. I was so impressed.”
  (00:24)

• Carrie Brownstein: “I hold Don Walzer in my heart till I can hold you in my own.”
  (08:35)

• Ann Powers: “Thick put on the most incredible show.”
  (09:49)

• Stephen Thompson: “It was full of kids on spring break just grooving to this guy. I was amazed by his talent spilling out of the room.”
  (12:23)

• Carrie Brownstein: “South by Southwest was sort of an industry discovery festival...”
  (05:55)

• Ann Powers: “With so much bloat, it just doesn't support the discovery of new artists the way it used to.”
  (25:48)

• Carrie Brownstein: “I really hope that something pops up to replace that experience.”
  (27:07)

• Stephen Thompson: “Book a little trip to Austin... it's really fun.”
  (28:36)

• Ann Powers: “There was massive value in being out in the mix, being part of a huge collective experience, and engaging with real music fans.”
  (33:30)

---

This comprehensive reflection not only honors SXSW's storied past but also calls attention to the evolving landscape of music discovery and the enduring need for vibrant, communal experiences in the arts.

Transcript

[Robin Hilton]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial. When your celebration of life is prepaid today, your family is protected. Tomorrow, planning ahead is truly one of the best gifts you can give your family. For additional information, visit dignitymemorial.com let's just.

[Ann Powers]

Do a show where we all try to remember all the names we've forgotten and the memories we've made.

[Stephen Thompson]

That show is called My Life. Hello.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ann Powers]

So this past week, we received what I think counts as pretty big news in our world, staggering news, really. And even I would go as far as to say unthinkable news in a lot of ways. And that is that the south by Southwest Music Festival is all but going away. And I say all but going away because technically it still exists. But starting next year, organizers are cutting it so much that I think it's safe to say that it'll kind of just be a shell of itself and what it used to be. Ann Powers, Steven Thompson, both here to talk about this. I think, Anne, you and I actually met for the first time at south by Southwest.

[Stephen Thompson]

I met all of you at south by Southwest.

[Carrie Brownstein]

I'm pretty sure that's true.

[Stephen Thompson]

I remember very vividly the walking into a room and you and Bob Boylan and. And who else? I think Anya Grundmann was there.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah. Wasn't Carrie Brownstein there, too? Yeah.

[Stephen Thompson]

I was like, oh, my goodness, the glamorous. Look at these glamorous NPR people. I was so impressed.

[Ann Powers]

I thought the same thing. Look at us.

[Stephen Thompson]

Exactly.

[Ann Powers]

Well, so we should say south by Southwest. It's been happening every year for nearly 40 years, and once, at least the largest music festival in the world, south by Southwest, it's basically being folded into the film and interactive festival that historically has happened the week before the real music festival begins. And they're also shortening all of it. So the bulk of the festival, you know, it used to really take off around Wednesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Those were the huge days. Now it's ending on Wednesday, the day I often think of it normally taking off. That is when it's ending. And we're going to talk about a few things here on this episode. We're going to talk about what was so special about the festival, why it was so unique, why it mattered. And we're going to share some memories of our time there, the bands that we discovered, what it meant for us to be there. We're also going to talk about what this means for the future of music, for the industry, for the artists, music discovery, how all of that could be affected by this. And of course, we need to talk about how exactly we reach this point, but I want to get some music in here, right at the top. And maybe, maybe this is a good place for us to, you know, talk about why it was so special. We can get to some of the bands that we discovered there. And maybe it's best if I kick this part of the conversation off with a song.

[Carrie Brownstein]

And let's see, I'm gonna try to. Wait, I'm trying to name that tune. Is that Oceano or is that Abiotic?

[Ann Powers]

This is the song I have to have a half of. Half and half.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Oh. Oh, no. The Locust.

[Ann Powers]

No, it's Sign. Tzun Toad. Sin Tzun Toad. So many amazing metal bands. Let's call this the Sound of Wednesday at 11am and then maybe after this you go to this. And then from this maybe to this. Hey, I've been solid, baby, since day one. So I can't just throw around who I love. And that's, I trust if it's up, it's stuff stuck. And at this point, let's say it's 1:00 on Wednesday afternoon, right? And then. And then you go to this and you're just getting started with your day. Right?

[Stephen Thompson]

Exactly.

[Ann Powers]

And don't you think that that just sums up one of the biggest things that was so special about south by that you could have the most bonkers slate of concerts all happening at the same time, same day, and before 3:00 in the afternoon. You haven't even started your night stuff yet.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yes. I don't know how we kept going, except for perhaps the existence of Red Bull. Thank God Red Bull came to exist.

[Carrie Brownstein]

That intoxicating cocktail of Red Bull and youth.

[Ann Powers]

I have never. I've never had Red Bull in my entire life.

[Stephen Thompson]

You're a Red Bull. You're like a living Red Bull, Robinson.

[Ann Powers]

I had the exact opposite. I always had to have wine to sort of bring me back down to earth after it was all done. But jump in here with what you remember about south by and what you think made it stand out so much and why it matters so much.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Well, I think that one thing that's worth keeping in mind here is that music festivals are all over the place. And when we talk about music festivals, how they currently exist in most cases is you go out to some open field somewhere and there are four, six, maybe eight stages kind of scattered across this expanse. And you go from place to place, checking out kind of a festival approved major or rising artist and that's a very different experience from what south by Southwest has been over the course of its history. South by Southwest was sort of an industry discovery festival, taking place across dozens and dozens of bars, coffee shops, kind of makeshift venues, theaters, outdoor amphitheaters, a convenience store doorway.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yep, exactly.

[Carrie Brownstein]

And some of the best and worst venues that you've ever tried to see music. And all of this stuff is kind of happening on top of each other. It was an incredible way to do one stop shopping and take in little pieces and kind of scout different acts that we would then go on to champion over the course of their careers. Book them at our showcases. Book them at the tiny desk. A lot of discovery happened at south by Southwest.

[Ann Powers]

One of the things I hear you saying here, Steven, is that made it really unique is how integrated it was into the community and sort of became a part of that whole little universe. It wasn't like you went off to a field out in the middle of the country somewhere isolated.

[Stephen Thompson]

That's very true. And I think we have to talk about south by Southwest as an Austin festival and as the elder in this group. You know, I started going in 1994.

[Carrie Brownstein]

We were all basically the same age.

[Stephen Thompson]

I know. Okay. But I just started going in 1996.

[Ann Powers]

Fully, fully prepared to allow Ann to just go with that and just let that go.

[Stephen Thompson]

I saw the Beatles at South by Southwest in 1964. No.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Who could forget seeing Dennis Day? And.

[Stephen Thompson]

No. But when I started going in 1993, south by Southwest was growing toward what you're describing, Stephen. But I think it's important to acknowledge that it was very much rooted in the Austin music community and in the spirit of music that runs through that town. I mean, it used to feel like when you went to La Zona Rosa, which is one of the venues that we loved at south by Southwest, it felt like you were walking all the way to Waco. Like, it felt so far away. And. And so it grew. The fact that it grew from this smaller festival that was focused a lot on Texas acts, kind of roots acts, to this bigger thing, I think is key to its charm.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Well, and for me, one of the first artists that I discovered at south by Southwest, I've been going. I've been going. I went every year from 1997 to 2019. It's 24 years in a row. And then the pandemic stopped it, and then I haven't been back, like, I think a lot of people. But in the late 90s, I saw performing in the convention center at some nondescript day stage. I was, you know, browsing through different stuff and I hear this voice kind of swooning in the distance. And I like. It was like a cartoon character drifting toward the scent of a pie. The experience of. The experience of hearing this voice. And it was the singer, Don Walzer. I hold you in my heart Till.

[Anya Grundmann]

I can hold you in my arms like you've never been held before.

[Carrie Brownstein]

And Don Walzer, who since passed, he was known as the Pavarotti of the Plains. And he was singing this song called I will hold you in my heart till I can hold you in my own. And just that voice, man. And that was an early kind of formative experience I had at south by Southwest of having my mind blown by not only an artist I'd never heard, but a genre I'd never appreciated.

[Ann Powers]

Well, this is sort of something that you both have been touching on. The fact that they created this vast. Well, it eventually became vast universe that you could step into and wander around in. The potential for discovery, accidental discovery, were very, very high if you just stepped out of your hotel and just started walking around. And I'll never Forget it was 2018 when I was just walking down the street thinking, I wonder what I'll go see. And I heard the most incredible noise coming from this little Hole in the Wall venue. And it was the band Thick.

[Anya Grundmann]

You're wasting my time. You're wasting my time. You're wasting my time. You're wasting.

[Ann Powers]

And it was this group of women who were just absolutely just laying waste to this little room where barely anybody could stand in. It was like they found, you know, maybe a medium sized walk in closet and they thought, we'll just put the band here and everyone's crammed in there and sweat's pouring off of everyone. And Thick put on the most incredible show. And I am certain that in addition to probably not even getting booked to play one of the big festivals, this just would not have happened if south by Southwest hadn't been set up the way that it was, where you could have bands literally everywhere, including just sitting on the curb of some random street.

[Stephen Thompson]

Oh, I have a great story about discovering someone completely accidentally. And I remember like eating breakfast at 2pm because of course I've been up till 4 in the main part of south by in the downtown area. A group of people came by my table and somebody's like, oh, there's this guy you should see. He doesn't have an official showcase, but he's playing tonight on 6th street, right? And I happened into this bar. And here is this completely dorky looking blonde, curly headed nerd guy with giant glasses. He kind of looked like your favorite Stephen Weirdel. And I'm like, what's gonna happen here? He has this band.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Alan Stone.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yes, he has this band. The band was Raphael Siddiq's band. And they cooked so hard. And Alan Stone is such an amazing singer.

[Anya Grundmann]

I've been giving you love. You've been giving me pain and sorrow I've been giving you love and I was hoping your love would my low but now it seems I'm just another Carter in your ring now it seems I'm just a victim in your scheme we going to take how many CRS you going to break for your friends? Satisfaction you like a snake let me eat your fruit and then you shoot, shoot Take your fire satisfaction Just like.

[Stephen Thompson]

The soulfulness, the wild energy of that set. And it was full of kids on spring break. It didn't have anyone else. There was no other journalists in the room, no other industry people. It felt like just kids on spring break completely grooving to this guy. And I was just amazed by his talent spilling out of the room. That was a discovery that could have only happened not only at south by, but at an unofficial set. You know, an unofficial showcase, which was a big part of it. Those things you would discover just cause somebody whispered in your ear, oh, you.

[Ann Powers]

Never, you never had to step foot in a single official showcase.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah, you did.

[Ann Powers]

You didn't want to, right?

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah, it's true.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Part of what I loved about south by Southwest, and you know, we're talking about it in the past tense, I noticed that.

[Ann Powers]

Are we gonna keep this?

[Carrie Brownstein]

I really don't want us to like have this be a funeral for south by Southwest. But you would find artists who would become your new favorites. I remember finding Phoebe Bridgers. Yeah, but like Phoebe Bridgers was a perfect example of somebody who had put three songs out into the world. She had three songs in circulation. I happened to hear one of them while preparing for south by Southwest. And by the time we got there, like I'd gotten Bob and Bob Boylan into her, I'd gotten Robin Hilton into her. We ended up recording like a field recording with her before she was even signed.

[Ann Powers]

Well, Stephen, everything you're saying, discovering artists who we end up falling in love with and following for years and who get a lot bigger and speaking to the idea of how special Austin was. It's the only place and festival I know of where you could go to see the most amazing shows ever at two different churches that were Downtown Central Presbyterian and St. David's and I'll never forget, I think it was 2009 when I went to see a show by this artist.

[Anya Grundmann]

I wish I knew what to do with you.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Something in my eye.

[Ann Powers]

I'm getting choked up again now just hearing her voice again. Sharon Van Netten.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Robin. I'm really.

[Stephen Thompson]

Robin crying to Sharon Van Etten. I've seen you cry to Sharon Van Etten in so many settings.

[Carrie Brownstein]

I really feel like that show brought us closer together. Robyn. We'd known each other by that point for less than three years. And I remember we'd only known each.

[Ann Powers]

Other 17 years at that point and just hadn't clicked.

[Carrie Brownstein]

But I remember sitting next to you and really having a small cry together.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah. Do you remember what Bob Boylan was doing during that show? He was scrolling through his phone trying to see what the next show was.

[Stephen Thompson]

I couldn't handle that aspect. I couldn't compete with you and Bob. Steven. That was. I had to, like, eventually give up because I remember one time we were taping a late night session and I think you had seen 34 bands that day and he had seen 35. And I was just like, I'm going to get a margarita.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Well, yeah. And as somebody, as somebody who one, hates logistics and two, has adhd. South by Southwest was a fascinating combination. Was it still exists. Is a fascinating combination of stimuli because there's always something else to see. And if you're trying to see everything, you are constantly trying to map out your next move. And I would try to see three shows in an hour. I would try to catch like eight minutes, like two songs by three different artists at three different venues in the same time slot to try to take in as much as possible and get a sense of. Of what I'm seeing. But you can, in effect, turn off the part of your brain that is most open, most receptive to discovery, because you're always thinking about the next thing. And so that push and pull was something you constantly had to navigate.

[Sarah Levy]

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[Robin Hilton]

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[Ann Powers]

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[Robin Hilton]

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[Ann Powers]

We'Ve talked a lot about why south by Southwest was so special and how incredible it was and how hugely important it was to us and to so many other people, really, all over the world. So the big question right now is yes, it is still going to continue and it is, I would say maybe on life support, but how on earth did we get to this point? And there's so many things and we can get into all of them here, but I think if we had to pick one thing, it's probably Covid. Yeah, I think it's Covid.

[Stephen Thompson]

But I also think there was bloat. Let's be honest. It had gotten so big. There was a lot of criticism, Robin, as you alluded to, of the admission of big brands sponsoring shows. There was the infamous Doritos Doritos vending machine in the 20s.

[Ann Powers]

That was quite a vending machine though. What was it like?

[Carrie Brownstein]

It was like a 70 foot vending machine and bands would play in the mouth of the vending machine like they were a snack being dispensed.

[Ann Powers]

If you don't think the festival had jumped the shark at that point, then. I know, but I mean, I know what you're saying, Andy.

[Carrie Brownstein]

I saw some good shows at that vending machine. I saw Hailey Bonner there and she was great.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah, honestly, it was iconic, but you know, there was bloat. It did get so big and so corporate. And I think what got very difficult for smaller bands. Andy Langer, who's been a longtime Austinite and observer and participant in the music scene, wrote an excellent analysis of what happened. And the thing that sticks in my mind from what Andy wrote was he said south by Southwest had lost its utility. It was so expensive for smaller bands or even mid level bands to do the festival. It was so difficult for them to get any attention that. That thing we're talking about, that spirit of discovery, kind of went by the wayside.

[Ann Powers]

So I think what I'm hearing you say, Ann, is that Covid maybe expedited things, but it had already started to lose some of its shine. Well, before COVID I think.

[Stephen Thompson]

So. I mean, discovery is great until you get to the point where you can't even see the forest for the trees. And despite your incredible Herculean skills, Stephen, I think even you must have started to feel that way at a certain point.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, if I'm charting the contraction of south by Southwest, the first year that I would bring up is 2014.

[Stephen Thompson]

Wow. Okay.

[Carrie Brownstein]

And in 2014, that is the year that you had the tragic, fatal crash.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yes.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Where a car drove into a crowd of people. Four people died, many people were injured. At the Mohawk Club outside the Mohawk, which is one of the best clubs in Austin.

[Stephen Thompson]

Absolutely.

[Carrie Brownstein]

And it cast a really heartbreaking pall over the festival. And it was right around the same time, 2014 and 2015, where I was really starting to feel like it had become extremely difficult just to navigate from place to place in the city, because so much was laid on. Like, you just had layers of festival piled on top of festival piled on top of festival. And I alluded to this in the beginning of this discussion when I said, like, it's Discovery, part mainstream festival, part Mardi Gras, part spring break, where you would just try to get from place to place. And it meant wading through what felt like a dangerous throng of people just outside. Like, you couldn't navigate outside because there were so many people. And I think, you know, and part of that was a byproduct of the fact that the festival was bringing in free outdoor concerts by Lady Gaga or Coldplay, These, you know, really, really massive.

[Stephen Thompson]

Audiences, major rappers, like future people like that. Yeah.

[Carrie Brownstein]

And those functions, which were not so much about music discovery, but about bringing in people kind of outside of the discovery realm, made the festival really hard to navigate. And I remember around 2014, 2015, it was the first time that I was thinking, I can see a world where I stopped going to this festival.

[Stephen Thompson]

Wow.

[Carrie Brownstein]

That, for me, is a big thing to admit, because that festival was such a big part of my life.

[Ann Powers]

It's interesting to hear you guys talk about the bloat, because I hadn't even thought about that. But it's all. Everything you're saying is so true and really resonates with me. But all the. You'd be looking at your schedule and you think, well, I'm here. And this band that plays 15 minutes from now is a two mile walk through a sea of people that I will never get through. So I'm never even gonna make it to that show and discover that artist that I really wanna see. Yeah, the bloat was. It was real.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah.

[Carrie Brownstein]

I had recently, I was doing an interview with Matt Riley from KUT for New Music Friday, and Matt and I were chatting kind of in the run up to the taping, and I said, oh, man, you great time at south by Southwest. I'm so, so jealous. And he's like, well, it's really shrunk. And I was like, oh, don't threaten me with a good time.

[Stephen Thompson]

Exactly.

[Ann Powers]

Well, yeah, this is all really interesting because I was really just thinking about how corporate it had become and how I think it had lost some of its soul and its original intent, the move towards bigger and bigger bands. And, you know, then if you don't get the bigger bands, then you're not making more money, you know, I'll never forget being at breakfast one day and this might have been around 2014, 2015, and hearing a person on their phone at the table next to me yelling into the phone, where's the money?

[Stephen Thompson]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ann Powers]

Seriously, where's the money? Yeah. I remember talking about this on one of our late night dispatches. It was right out of Jerry Maguire's Show Me the Money.

[Stephen Thompson]

I mean, that's crazy.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah. And I thought, well, that's a moment that's really, you know. But I want to say, I mean.

[Stephen Thompson]

You could still see great shows at southwest, even late 20s. The last time I went was in 2018, and I actually went in to do a film panel. It's interesting that film is kind of the dominant now, the dominant aspect of the south by Southwest Festival. I got invited to do this film panel and I stayed for one day of the festival, which was the Wednesday. And on that day, Pussy Riot performed.

[Anya Grundmann]

You thought that I just made this for the club? No way. I got this microphone to wake you up and say, look, I can do just what I want right here today. And I don't hear those sirens anyway. Okay.

[Stephen Thompson]

And just the privilege of seeing the great subversive Russian band Pussy Riot at all was incredible, you know, and it was an afternoon set. And Robin, what you were saying about seeing, like a band that blows your mind at one in the afternoon, it was at Emos on their outdoor stage. So it was small and so crazy and so exciting. There were still artists who could grab that moment, even in those final years before the pandemic, I don't want to say they did.

[Ann Powers]

I saw Chance the Rapper at a little cafe bar thing on a Wednesday afternoon, you know, like at 1:00, well before he blew up.

[Stephen Thompson]

Clearly, Wednesday was the best day.

[Ann Powers]

Wednesday is the best day. You know, I think so. When I think about how we got to this point, I guess what I'm hearing everyone say here is that there was, it was kind of inevitable, maybe we were kind of moving in this direction where there needed to be sort of a correction, a contraction of some kind. You know, I, I think that the, you know, obviously so many bands used to go there because they wanted to be discovered and that was where they were going to get their big break. And, you know, with so much bloat, with so many big bands playing and so much money at stake, I just don't know that that was happening that much in those last several years. Although I did read we just had this band on All Songs Considered called Mail M H A O L Mail. And they got signed to Merge, apparently on the strength of a performance they gave at south by Southwest in 2023.

[Stephen Thompson]

Oh, wow. Well, see, the old indie rock stalwarts are still out there ar ing, which I love. I mean, the fact is, so many artists now are getting signed via their TikToks, via Instagram, via their soundclouds, and the physical experience of seeing an artist doesn't seem as valued, which I think is really tragic. Of course, there's nothing, nothing can replicate that feeling of being in a room with a band.

[Robin Hilton]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Lagunitas Brewing Company. Since 1993, Lagunitas has been challenging the status quo, brewing innovative beer and crafting stories along the way. Featuring a wide range of craft brews, cult classics and non alcoholic options. There's a seat at the bar for everyone. Bring the dog to Lagunitas Brewing Co. Because every great song deserves a great beer. It's good to have friends. Learn [e-mail] so let's talk a little.

[Ann Powers]

Bit about what we're losing here. Even though south by Southwest isn't entirely going away, the music part of it isn't entirely going away. I'm wondering how you think we're going to feel this down the road or even right away. I think a lot of it is kind of hard to measure.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Yeah, I mean, I think that the first thing that springs to mind is just the sense of having communal experiences in which people are Hearing artists for the first time. And as Anne kind of alluded to with TikTok and YouTube and so many ways that you can hear bands before you get a chance to see them live, I think that sense of like a whole bunch of discovery minded people all kind of crowding around one place to have a hundred different experiences simultaneously is something that is very, very hard to replicate. And obviously like the industry's in a very different place. The country is in a very different place. Artists ability to travel around the world is in a very different place. There are many ways in which you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. But I think that it is really unfortunate that there are fewer places to experience live music in a discovery sense. A bunch of bands at once, you know, you can obviously like go, you know, if you live in a major city, you can go to different clubs and just kind graze and you know, check stuff out. You know, you got to pay a cover or whatever. But I think that that's a real loss and I'm really hoping that something pops up to replace that experience. And I do think having a way, even though obviously the local vibe of south by Southwest and how much south by Southwest has meant to people who live in Austin, I do think having a travel destination that is combined with music discovery can be really special.

[Stephen Thompson]

That's what I was going to talk about. The regional aspect of south by Southwest really did matter even when it did get more bloated and bigger and in a good sense more international, really a global festival. But I do worry for the city of Austin and how this is going to affect Austin. As someone who lives in Nashville, it's always important to remember that New York and Los Angeles are not our only music cities in the US and we sometimes need those festivals highlight what's there all year round and hopefully bring people back at other times of the year. So I would just encourage everybody to, hey, book a little trip to Austin. Maybe it could be in July, it could be in October or whenever.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Yes, everybody should go to Austin in July.

[Stephen Thompson]

I live in the South. I'm like, go to the south in the summer. It's actually really fun. No one's there.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Go to Phoenix in August. You know, nobody's going to Phoenix in August.

[Stephen Thompson]

There's nothing like New Orleans in July, I tell you.

[Ann Powers]

I mean, do you all think though that bands are going to feel this in any way or that this will have any sort of impact on, I don't know again, discovery, but also the arc of a band's career and success or do you think that everything has shifted so much to TikTok and social media and that sort of stuff that it just doesn't matter anymore? Also the fact that artists don't even need bands anymore. Artists can just do it alone at home and, you know, they don't even need labels. You know, does all that, all those sorts of things that bands used to get from south by. Do you think that doesn't matter anymore?

[Carrie Brownstein]

Yeah, I mean, I think one thing, if you're looking for what south by Southwest's decline speaks to, it is a larger trend kind of paralleling what we've seen in movies where the, the movie industry has become so blockbuster focused that we've really lost a lot of the middle class. We've lost a lot of mid budget and genre films. And I think in music you're seeing some of the same stuff happen where there's been a real decline of the middle class in the music industry. And look, it is not a new phenomenon that it can be very, very, very hard for non superstar musicians to make a living. It has long been exceptionally difficult for independent musicians who do not have family wealth to survive making a pittance playing music and you know, touring the country, playing small clubs. But I do think the decline of south by Southwest is accelerating the hollowing out of that workaday kind of working in middle class in music where it is getting harder and harder for artists to mount tours, to be heard, to Lord knows, to hit the Billboard charts. I mean, that's a pipe dream.

[Stephen Thompson]

Forget it.

[Carrie Brownstein]

For most, for most artists, the way the Billboard charts are set up, you know, I write and talk about the Billboard charts for NPR every week and it's remarkable how few artists you're really talking about in the grand scheme of things, while at the same time there's more music being put out into the world than ever before. And so you have this, this weird process where the more music is made, the harder it is for any one artist to be able to make a living. And so that's one thing that I'm concerned about is just how do you mount a career as a musician who is not working with or is a superstar?

[Stephen Thompson]

It's very difficult. Now I do want to inject a little ray of light by saying that there are great music festivals right now that are thriving. And I'll just mention three Big Ears in Knoxville, which also takes place in March, which is really the vision of Bonnaroo founder Ashley Capps. And it focuses on jazz experimental music. But this year. The headliners are Anne O'Neill and Michelle and Degiciello. I actually joke that Big Ears is kind of the NPR Festival. Really, a lot of the artists we love play there. Also want to mention Americana Fest, which is still happening here in Nashville in September. And then finally, one that might be not on many people's radar is Folk alliance, which moves around. I'm on the board, full disclosure. But Folk alliance is this amazing festival where they actually rent out four. I think it's four floors of the hotel where they have the conference, and then artists play in the hotel rooms. And you go from one room to the other in the hotel rooms, and it's like an indoor 6th street, but inside a hotel. It's pretty incredible. And I've seen breakout sets at all of those festivals. I mean, aroujoftab at Big Ears when she just put out Vulture Prince or the Warren Treaty at Americana Fest, introduced by Buddy Miller and Emmylou Harris. Those are two examples of just sets that knocked my socks off and really elevated those artists to the next level.

[Ann Powers]

Well, when I think of the things that you can't really take the measure of, the things that are less tangible, it's kind of to something you were saying earlier, Stephen, about sort of the communal experience, this shared experience that's being lost in a lot of ways. I remember having lots of discussions with upper management at NPR about why exactly we were spending so much money to go to that festival and put on showcases when it was nothing but a money loser. I mean, we spent tens of thousands of dollars going to the festival and putting on massive showcases that were wildly successful. And the conclusion was that there was massive value in just being out in the mix, being a part of this huge collective experience, being in the conversation and being part of the conversation and engaging on the ground with real music fans who were also our audience. I made so many amazing connections with people on the ground there that I never would have ever. You know, I will also say, and I know my reputation precedes me here, I'm not really one who likes to be out in the midst of hordes of people, but it was pretty magical. It was pretty magical. And I had actually gotten to a point where I was starting to think, just this year, before we got this news, I was thinking, I really need to start going back to south by. I don't know if you guys were thinking anything like that.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Oh, absolutely.

[Stephen Thompson]

I'm happy with my. I mean, I'm happy with the festivals I'm going to this year, but I would maybe consider going back to south by now, you know, actually.

[Ann Powers]

Oh really?

[Stephen Thompson]

A streamlined quote unquote diminished south by is way more attractive to me than reinserting myself into the choppy ocean that it was.

[Carrie Brownstein]

One thing that I really appreciate about the way they're handling this because sometimes the most important thing you can do with a long running property like this when it's struggling is just find ways to keep it on life support until you're able to rebuild. And I still think there is enormous potential to rebuild this into something better than it was. But I want to express my gratitude to the people who've put this festival on over the years. The people who've put on this festival have done such good work. And as much as there is legitimate criticism for how this festival has developed over the years, there are people behind it who really deserve our thanks.

[Stephen Thompson]

Absolutely. And we should pour one out for Brent Groelke, who was one of the founders of the festival. He tragically passed away at only 51 in 2012. But I remember when Brent died and just the shockwave that went through the music community and here was this person who had taken this festival, you know, led this festival into a new space. So thank you for shouting out the.

[Ann Powers]

Founders and shout out to all the amazing bands that put all of their time and energy and money that they didn't have to probably deficit funded their trips to south by to put on performances. I made a list here of some of my favorites I discovered there. Mini Mansions, artist named Blush, Big Phony, Fang Island. I saw Bon Iver 2008 at her showcase.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah, who's heard of them?

[Carrie Brownstein]

Who are they?

[Ann Powers]

Kishibashi. Vampire Weekend played that. I mean so many.

[Carrie Brownstein]

We put on that one show and we had Adele was on the lineup and she had to drop out because of visa issues. But our lineup was Adele, Bon Iver, Vampire Weekend, the Shout Out Louds and Jens Leckman all on one bill at one party.

[Stephen Thompson]

As long as we're singing our own praises, I'll never forget St. Vincent's set.

[Ann Powers]

Oh my God.

[Stephen Thompson]

And I think that was actually the year of the accident that happened. She played right before that. But that was one of those like anointment sets where she just. She killed it.

[Ann Powers]

She was a guitar God on that stage. It was incredible.

[Stephen Thompson]

It was really, really amaz.

[Anya Grundmann]

What's the point of even sleeping if I can show it? You can see me. What's the point of doing anything?

[Ann Powers]

Well, we could take a walk down memory lane and talk about all the memorable moments and you know the bands and everything that we discovered from our years at south by Southwest. We could do this all day well into the night, but we'll wrap it up here. And speaking of looking back at memorable moments, All Songs Considered is celebrating its 25th anniversary this year. And all spring and summer, we're looking back at our number one songs from each year. We're doing a different year on each episode. We're actually going to take a break from that this week, but we'll be back next week with a look at our number one songs from 2007. But until then, Ann Powers, Stephen Thompson, thanks so much as well. Always.

[Carrie Brownstein]

Thank you.

[Stephen Thompson]

It was lovely to walk down memory lane, even if memory lane was sometimes crowded full of drunk kids on spring break.

[Ann Powers]

And for NPR Music, I'm Robin Hilton. It's All Songs Considered.

[Anya Grundmann]

It.

[Stephen Thompson]

Sam.

[Robin Hilton]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Lagunitas Brewing Co. Challenging the status quo and crafting stories along the way, featuring a wide range of innovative craft brews and non alcoholic options. It's good to have friends. Learn [e-mail] this message comes from Warby Parker. If you wear glasses, you know how hard it is to find the perfect pair. But step into a Warby Parker store and you'll see it doesn't have to be. Find a Warby Parker store near [e-mail] retail. This message comes from Sony Pictures Classics presenting on Swift Horses starring Daisy Edgar Jones, Jacob Elordi, Will Poulter, Diego Calva and Sasha Callet. Sparked by the arrival of her husband's brother, Muriel embarks on a secret life, discovering a love she never thought possible. Only in theaters April 25th.