The year in review, 2025

Summary

All Songs Considered – The Year in Review, 2025

Host: Robin Hilton
Guests: Ann Powers, Isabella Gomez Sarmiento, Stephen Thompson
Release Date: December 2, 2025
Podcast: NPR’s All Songs Considered

---

Episode Overview

This special year-end review episode unites the NPR Music team—Robin Hilton, Ann Powers, Isabella Gomez Sarmiento, and Stephen Thompson—to look back at 2025’s biggest moments in music. Over an hour, they blend insightful analysis and playful banter to unpack the year’s defining albums, viral phenomena, controversies, generational shifts, and losses, moving chronologically through each quarter. Themes of pop legacy, industry challenges, generational change, and the fragmentation of audiences recur throughout.

---

Key Discussion Points & Timestamps

1. Was 2025 an Exceptional Year for Music? (00:57–01:47)

• The group debates whether 2025 was an unusually strong or weak year for music:
  • Ann Powers: “A fantastic year ... as far as the deep, wide and not very well-defined middle.” [01:09]
  • Isabella notes blockbuster albums missed the mark, but quieter releases and emerging artists shined.
  • Robin and Stephen both agree it was “amazing,” though acknowledge dissent within the wider team.

---

2. Blockbuster Album Releases & Early Year Highlights

Bad Bunny’s Genre-Bending Triumph (03:14–05:05)

• Bad Bunny kicks off the year with a genre-melding, Puerto Rican-rooted album.
  • Isabella: “It was a very, very big, ambitious swing. And he really kind of struck gold with this album.” [03:14]
  • Ann: “He had so much swag to release what he knew was gonna be a huge contender for album of the year in January.” [04:00]
• Bad Bunny maintains prominence: Tiny Desk concert in April, announced as 2026 Super Bowl Halftime performer (foreshadowing future culture wars debates).
  • Stephen: “He’s literally the most streamed artist on earth.” [04:33]

The Kendrick-Drake Feud & Super Bowl Halftime (05:33–06:19)

• Kendrick Lamar’s Super Bowl performance symbolically caps his dominant feud with Drake, considered unanimously a “victory lap.”
  • Ann: “It capped the most amazing feud of the 21st century, which Kendrick won hands down.” [05:33]
  • Stephen (Simpsons meme): “Stop, stop. He’s already dead!” [05:51]
  • Kendrick’s performance lauded for both triumph and playfulness.

---

3. Politics, Institutions & Culture Wars

Trump’s Kennedy Center Takeover (06:19–09:05)

• President Trump fires the Kennedy Center’s board and is installed as chair, appointing Richard Grenell as interim president.
• Fallout includes programming staff fired, high-profile artists and directors resigning or canceling (Ben Folds, Renee Fleming, Issa Rae, Rhiannon Giddens, Hamilton cast).
  • Isabella: “It’s been really interesting to see how different artists ... are approaching it.” [07:47]
  • Ann recounts Yasmin Williams’s on-stage protest and subsequent disruption by hecklers.
• Broader effects: immigration policy leads to tour cancellations for international acts (e.g., FKA Twigs).

---

4. The Grammys, Pop Phenomena & “Changing of the Guard” (09:07–11:46)

• A landmark year at the Grammys:
  • Beyoncé finally wins Album of the Year for "Cowboy Carter" [09:20–09:35].
  • Kendrick sweeps Record and Song of the Year for “Not Like Us” and charts with “Luther” featuring SZA, called an “inescapable R&B earworm” by Stephen [10:44].
  • Rise of Gen Z performers: Sabrina Carpenter, Doechii, Chapel Roan, and others praised for electrifying performances.
  • Ann: “For me, it was all about Gen Z taking the stage. ... We have a Changing of the Guard happening a lot this year.” [11:13]

---

5. Iconic Comebacks & Losses (11:46–14:54)

Reunions & Returns

• Surprise reunions from Alabama Shakes, Rilo Kiley, Pulp, Sugar, and Clipse, with new albums and tours bridging to new, younger audiences.
  • Ann: “To hear thousands singing along and see them up on that stage, it made me so happy.” [12:01]
  • Stephen: “It really is a golden age for these reunions because these artists music never really happened to go away due to streaming.” [12:33]

Losses in Q1

• Remembering Marianne Faithfull, Bill Fay, Roy Ayers, Roberta Flack, and David Lynch.
  • Ann: “I think the beautiful thing with someone like Roberta is that her genius has been recognized ... widely, and she got to experience a lot of love in her final years.” [14:54]
  • David Lynch is mourned for his unique musical influence [15:40].

---

6. Music & Movies: Original Film Soundtracks (17:43–24:43)

Sinners – The Ryan Coogler Vampire Film (17:56–20:33)

• Praised for its artistic music integration and exploration of Black music history.
  • Ann: “It’s a profound meditation on how black Americans have given us so much musically and yet so much has been taken.” [18:49]
• Oscar buzz for “I Lied To You” (Miles Caton).

K Pop Demon Hunters – Animated Pop Phenomenon (21:19–24:43)

• Crossover hit film and soundtrack, especially "Golden." Vocalist EJ becomes a viral sensation.
  • Stephen: “It was a true word of mouth sensation ... a source of almost unanimous joy and praise.” [22:09]
  • Ann: “Please let her sing it at the Academy Awards.” [24:15]

---

7. The Sean Combs Trial & #MeToo Reckonings (24:54–27:12)

• Highlights the spring-long, highly publicized trial of Sean “Diddy” Combs for sex trafficking and racketeering.
  • Isabella: “It was a big story of how ... Sean Combs had over the music and entertainment industry and how he wielded that power and ultimately who it harmed.” [24:54]
  • Acquitted of major charges, but verdict reflects perceived societal regression since #MeToo.
  • Ann: “Very depressing, I have to say, and disturbing.” [26:45]

---

8. Music Documentaries & Mental Health (27:29–30:12)

• Billy Joel’s fall, health news, and resulting doc And So It Goes spark wider discussion on musician mental health.
  • Stephen: “Musicians have access to the mental health care that they need.” [28:33]
  • Ann touts Swamp Dog Gets His Pool Painted as her favorite “movie about mutual care.” [29:19]

---

9. Live Music, Tour Cancellations & The Economics Crisis (30:12–34:10)

• Discussion on scale and impact of Oasis’s reunion tour—huge for fans, but subject to generational and regional divides.
• Dire touring landscape: artists cite high costs, major acts cancel tours (e.g., Garbage).
  • Robin: “It felt like a particularly grim year for live music to me, both in streaming and in touring.” [33:07]
  • Ann: “So many artists feel squeezed ... even airlines changing their policies about how you can ... bring your instrument on board.” [33:13]
  • Artists like Caroline Rose push back in small ways but admit it’s not sustainable. [33:42]

---

10. Third Quarter: Losses & the Power of the Internet

• Final show and passing of Ozzy Osbourne, also Sly Stone, Brian Wilson, and viral resurgence of Connie Francis's “Pretty Little Baby” thanks to TikTok.
  • Stephen: “She got to experience this wave of intergenerational love and appreciation ... the fact that young music fans have at their fingertips access to this incredibly vast archive allows some of these elders to receive their floating flowers.” [37:01]

---

11. The Fractured Pop Landscape & Album Cycles (38:07–44:13)

• Albums from Sabrina Carpenter, Lorde, HAIM, Weekend, Addison Rae spark conversation about fleeting cultural moments and the “morning after” hangover post-2024’s pop peak.
  • Ann: “It was an underperforming year for pop phenomena. That doesn’t mean the albums are bad ... But it didn’t feel like these artists were ruling the Zeitgeist.” [39:58]
• Isabella: “It’s also just a symptom of how fractured audiences and fan bases are ... we’re all in our own individual algorithms and playlists and bubbles.” [41:02]
• Stephen: “How many artists their fan bases exist in silos ... It’s amazing how many artists essentially never hit the Billboard charts but can fill stadiums.” [42:01]
• Ongoing micro-scenes and artist bubbles highlighted with Conan Gray, Addison Rae, Geese, and the "sneaky year for boys in pop" (Alex Warren, Role Model, Benson Boone, Geese).

---

12. The Streaming & Algorithm Effect

• Push vs. genuine demand for acts like Geese, and the cyclical backlash/echo-chamber created by algorithmic recommendations.
  • Robin: “I just assumed all my friends with similar music tastes would also love [Geese], and it’s so mixed. ... This is my point. Like, even the thing that we should all be uniting around, people are not uniting around.” [46:56–47:02]

---

13. Lilith Fair Documentary & the Folk-Pop Revival (47:02–51:08)

• Building a Mystery highlights the legacy of Lilith Fair (with Ann Powers on screen!), sparking renewed interest in women singer-songwriters and folk-influenced pop.
  • Ann: “Women have really firmly claimed their place as visionaries ... and the playing field has changed across the board in every genre.” [50:13]
  • Ann advocates for a Lilith Fair revival: “Bring it back, bring the tour back.” [50:52]

---

14. Bad Bunny’s Super Bowl & the Politics of Pop (51:08–53:19)

• Bad Bunny announced as 2026 Super Bowl performer, generating predictable controversy and some backlash, which the hosts attribute to both latent xenophobia and his unapologetically political stance.
  • Isabella: “He’s standing up for immigrants, he’s standing up for Latino communities ... he famously says he doesn’t care what other people think.” [52:26]
  • Ann: “I honestly can’t think of anyone else who should play the Super Bowl this year.” [53:19]

---

15. Taylor Swift’s “Life of a Showgirl” & the Year of Backlash (54:29–56:38)

• New album arrives, prompting unprecedented backlash, fueled by a pre-release leak allegedly dissing Charli XCX, and “variant fatigue” from 27 limited editions.
  • Ann: “I did not expect the backlash to be so intense.” [54:53]
  • Stephen: “She has reached this level of omnipresence where she’s essentially too big to fail.” [55:58]
• Reflection on inevitable pop fatigue as segment closes.

---

16. Rosalia’s “Luxury” – Album of the Year? (56:38–58:33)

• Rosalia’s surprise drop is a critical favorite among hosts.
  • Robin: “Album of the year for me. Stephen, I think it’s album for you.” [56:38]
  • Isabella: “She’s back and her crown’s on her head. That halo is firm on the top of her head.” [57:24]
  • Ann: “Who else brought it to the level of opera? Who else brought it to the level of La Boheme? Only Rosalia.” [57:36]

---

Memorable Quotes

• Stephen on Kendrick/Drake feud: “Do you know the Simpsons meme where the kid goes, ‘Stop, stop. He’s already dead.’” [05:51]
• Ann on Gen Z at the Grammys: “For me, it was all about Gen Z taking the stage ... Changing of the Guard happening a lot this year.” [11:13]
• Isabella on music in silos: “We’re all so segmented that it’s hard to have ... monoculture moment.” [41:02]
• Stephen on the internet’s role in legacy appreciation: “The fact that young music fans have at their fingertips access to this incredibly vast archive allows some of these elders to receive their floating flowers ...” [37:01]
• Robin, jokingly, on solving national crises: “We should be uniting around Geese. This could solve our national crises, all of them, if we just united around Geese.”
• Ann on Rosalia: “Who else brought it to the level of opera? Who else brought it to the level of La Boheme? Only Rosalia.” [57:36]

---

Conclusion and What’s Next

• The episode wraps with reminders of upcoming year-end coverage: best albums and songs, listener poll, and the annual holiday extravaganza.
• Robin: “We’ve got a whole month’s worth of year-end stuff coming all through December.” [58:54]
• The team’s reflections land on a year that was rich, fractured, and rapid—highlighting profound musical innovation, generational change, renewed respect for legacy artists, and the challenges of a shifting, often fragmented industry.

---

Key Takeaways

• 2025 saw both seismic shifts (Bad Bunny, Kendrick’s dominance, Rosalia, Taylor Swift’s backlash) and the deepening of micro-scenes and audience fragmentation.
• Politics and social issues deeply impacted the industry, from venue takeovers to the legacy of #MeToo.
• The economics of streaming and live performance became a bigger crisis, while the digital realm allowed for previously impossible waves of legacy appreciation.
• Despite monoculture’s decline, music’s power to unite, console, and spark conversation remains undiminished.

---

“It was a fantastic year ... as far as the deep, wide and not very well-defined middle. I think it was absolutely great.”
— Ann Powers [01:09]

“Who else brought it to the level of opera? Who else brought it to the level of La Boheme? Only Rosalia.”
— Ann Powers [57:36]

---

Compiled by All Songs Considered | December 2025

Transcript

[Announcer]

This message comes from the Council for Interior Design Qualification. Safety matters. That's why NCIDQ certified interior designers meet rigorous standards to protect health, safety and welfare. Learn [e-mail] NPR it's the all Songs.

[Robin Hilton]

Considered Year in Review. I'm Robin Hilton. I'm here with NPR Musique's Ann Powers.

[Ann Powers]

Hello.

[Robin Hilton]

You may know her from such hits as All Songs plus the Bi weekly, those deep dives on a single song that you and Dawi Tyler Amin do go out every other Thursday for NPR Music subscribers. Also, NPR Music reporter Isabella Gomez Sarmiento.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Howdy.

[Robin Hilton]

You are joining us from WABE in Atlanta.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yes, sir.

[Robin Hilton]

And if we must, STEPHEN thompson, I'm.

[Stephen Thompson]

Afraid it's it's a contractual obligation. I just camp out in the studio and I won't leave.

[Robin Hilton]

Host of New Music Friday and Pop Culture Happy Hour Hour what do y' all think? Do you think 2025 just broadly, was an unusually great year for music, unusually bad year for music, or just kind of a typical year?

[Ann Powers]

For me, it was a fantastic year. As far as the the deep, wide and not very well defined middle. I think it was absolutely great. As far as the top, the 1%, the pop girlies, not so much. We will discuss.

[Stephen Thompson]

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that I think it's an amazing year for music right at the exact same time that I started hosting New Friday. To me, it's been an outstanding year for music.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah, I really agree with Anne. I think it was a year where a lot of the blockbustery type of albums I was looking forward to didn't quite land. But it was a great year for a lot of really quiet releases, new artists that caught me off guard, new genres.

[Robin Hilton]

I thought it was kind of an amazing year for music. It feels like one of the best in recent memory for me. But I was talking with some other people on the NPR music team. I won't mention any names, but Jacob Gantz said that he didn't think it was a very strong year. And I just thought, man, I don't know. So I thought maybe I'm out on an island here. I thought it was a pretty great year. Well, we're going to have separate episodes all about the year's best songs, best albums, a bunch of other stuff. Look for those starting on December 9th. On this episode, we're going to look back and go through the year 2025. We're going to go chronologically by quarters. We're to going going to talk about memorable moments, milestones, all the things that Sort of define the year in music for 2025 and what we think we'll remember this year for. I think we have to start with something that happened In January of 2025, the very first week of the year when Bad Bunny drops.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Well. So speaking of blockbuster albums that actually did hit, Bad Bunny came out swinging first month of the year with his genre bending, huge love letter to Puerto Rico. He's playing with salsa, plena bomba. He's taking these very traditional rhythms and mixing them with reggaeton, mixing them with Dembo, really paying homage to Puerto Ricans who live on the island and to the diaspora in New York. Nol as he says on the album, you know, I think every time Bad Bunny releases something, it's easy to say that he is doing an unprecedented thing for his career, but this album really sort of knocked it out of the park musically, socially, politically. It was a very, very big, ambitious swing. And he really kind of struck gold with this album.

[Ann Powers]

I think he had so much swag to release what he knew was gonna be a huge contender for album of the year in January. Like, what kind of.

[Robin Hilton]

My goodness, how many albums have we already forgotten about that we loved at the time when they came out at the top of the year and they were like, oh, yeah, that's right. Oh, my gosh, I forgot. They.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he has found ways to stay in the conversation in ways that I think a lot of artists dropping albums in January don't necessarily get to do. He played the Tiny Desk in April, which was incredible.

[Robin Hilton]

One of the all time best.

[Stephen Thompson]

I was there. I got to say, I was there. And, you know, and then late in the year, he was named as the super bowl halftime performer for 2026. And so, you know, his amazing 2025 is sort of sprawling out into. Into subsequent years and wound up kind of, you know, a topic of conversation in the godforsaken culture wars, you know, where there are these excruciating conversations from people who are like, who's this guy? It's like, oh, he's literally the most streamed artist on earth.

[Robin Hilton]

We're going to talk a whole lot more about that when we certainly when we get to the fall quarter when that. That was announced. Should we. Speaking of Super Bowls, should we mention the super bowl this year with Kendrick's performance?

[Ann Powers]

It was incredible. And it capped, you know, the most amazing feud of the 21st century, which Kendrick won hands down.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Right?

[Robin Hilton]

Well, don't you think he'd already won before the Super Bowl?

[Ann Powers]

I mean, that's okay, victory lap, then, you know, victory lap with an extra punch drop.

[Stephen Thompson]

Do you know the Simpsons meme where the. Where the kid goes, stop, stop. He's already dead.

[Ann Powers]

Exactly.

[Robin Hilton]

That's what I thought. I mean, I thought it was a great performance, and I love seeing him, but it kind of felt relentless to me. And, yeah, it was sort of like, okay, you know, you've won.

[Ann Powers]

It was also fun and funny, and it totally slayed in terms of his Marco bootcut jeans. Like, the outfit was incredible.

[Robin Hilton]

Stephen, you mentioned the culture wars of the entire year. We have to mention something else that happened in February, and that was Trump firing the board of trustees at the Kennedy center and then him getting elected chair. So we took over the Kennedy Center. We didn't like what they were showing and various other things. We're going to make sure that it's good and it's not going to be woke. There's no more woke in this country. This woke has cost us a fortune and cost us our reputation.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah, that was a big story that we were following in the spring, you know, the Trump administration sort of takeover of the Kennedy Center. We've seen the fallout of that for. For a couple of months now, especially in the spring. He, you know, he named Richard Grinnell interim president, who's still in that role now. He fired some of the programming staff. We've seen the Trump administration sort of seize on what the Kennedy center has been historically. I think what we have still yet to see is what exactly they want to do with it or how music is gonna play a role in the administration. What do you guys think?

[Stephen Thompson]

I personally, you know, I drive by the Kennedy center all the time, and I don't necessarily get a chance to attend a lot of shows there, but I'm really looking forward to seeing Ba Wit Da Ba performed in such a regal setting.

[Ann Powers]

Well, I think, you know, I think it was very telling what happened when the incredible guitarist Yasmin Williams decided to play at the Kennedy center to honor her commitment, but also to do it honestly as a form of protest. I think you covered that, right, Isabella? You covered Yasmin's appearance?

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah, I was gonna say after, you know, when he installed Richard Grinnell as the interim president, there were a couple of heated exchanges with concerned artists who reached out to Richard Grinnell, wondering about the future of the Kennedy Center. Yasmin Williams was one of them. And, you know, despite the heated back and forth and somewhat, you know, hostile tone of the conversation, she did end up playing there in the fall and doing a Concert because she wants the Kennedy center to stay open. She cares about the people who work there. And, yeah, it's been really interesting to see how different artists, some have pulled out, some have continued with their performances. I think there's been a lot of back and forth on how different people are approaching it.

[Ann Powers]

I believe her performance was disrupted as well, wasn't it? I think there were some.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

There were reports. Yeah. That she was. Yeah. That there were protesters and there was some heckling going on while she was on stage.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, a lot of people did pull up. Ben Folds resigned as the artistic director. Rene Fleming also left. Issa Rae, Rhianna Giddins canceled their performances. Hamilton cast pulled out. I mean, if we want to go even broader and talk about how the Trump administration's policies have on immigration have affected musicians. I mean, so many canceled tours over visa problems, including FKA Twigs.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah, it's true.

[Robin Hilton]

I just want to say we're only up to essentially February, and we've already talked about, like, 500 immigration and things.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

That have happened at other points. I know.

[Robin Hilton]

No, but it's true. I mean, it felt like a very top, heavy year. February in particular was stacked. I mean, we haven't even mentioned that. Beyonce, the Grammys. In February, she finally wins album of.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

The year, as selected by the 13,000.

[Robin Hilton]

Voting members of the Recording Academy. The Grammy goes to Cowboy Carter.

[Announcer]

Beyonce.

[Ann Powers]

Beyonce.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I mean, the Grammys were interesting this year. Like, it was Beyonce's big year. She finally gets album of the year. She seemed genuinely, like, shocked that receiving that award. And it was, you know, a moment that everyone has been waiting for for a very long time. It was also like Kendrick's year, Right. The culmination of this big, you know, the. The rap beef with Drake, the release of his new album, the Super Bowl. Like, Kendrick's, you know, really, like, on a massive victory lap at this point. And I think there were so many performances at the Grammys this year that really solidified this new generation of pop girls, even if, you know, that didn't quite pan out for the rest of the year. But I think Chapel, Dochi, Sabrina, Charlie. I mean, it was like one of the most fun years that I can remember actually watching the Grammy ceremony and enjoying the performances.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah, the Grammys being enjoyable is a headline unto itself.

[Robin Hilton]

Grammys actually enjoyed.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah.

[Stephen Thompson]

But I mean, I do think, you know, they were a huge part of that. Kendrick victory lap. He played the super bowl the next weekend, but was taking home record of the year and song of the year for Not Like Us and I mean, the Kendrick story. I mean, he had one of the biggest hits of maybe the biggest hit of the first half of 2025 with Luther featuring SZA.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Hey, Roman numeral 7B drop it like it's hot if this world was mine I take it James and make them multiply if this world was mine I take it Enemies in front of God Introduce him to that light Hit them.

[Stephen Thompson]

Strictly with the fire which was just an inescapable R and B earworm. I think it's one of his best songs of. Among many, many, many, many, many great songs, you know, so. So the Grammys, I where he just kind of racked up win after win after win.

[Ann Powers]

For me, it was all about Gen Z taking the stage. And that was really through the performances. We had Sabrina, we had Dochi, incredible performance from Dochi Chapel, Roan. And it's interesting because not to leap forward in time too much, but we just had the same thing happen at the CMA Awards in country with artists like the Red Clay Strays taking the stage and Lainey Wilson cementing her absolute number one top status in country. We have changed Changing of the Guard happening a lot this year. And the award shows really brought that home.

[Robin Hilton]

We had Changing of the Guards, but we also had a lot of sort of beloved veteran artists come back this year in big ways that I wasn't expecting. Starting again in February when the Alabama Shakes announced a reunion tour that made.

[Ann Powers]

Me so happy as a former Alabama resident and huge fan of that band. I went to see their show here in Nashville at the Amphitheater, and tears were in my eyes, you guys. I mean, seriously, to hear thousands and thousands singing along and see them up on that stage, it made me so happy.

[Robin Hilton]

Rilo Kiley.

[Stephen Thompson]

I got to see Rilo Kiley this fall. I hadn't seen them live in probably about 20 years, and unfortunately, I was battling a perforated eardrum at the time.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh, God, that's right. I remember that.

[Stephen Thompson]

But it was still incredible to get to experience. I mean, it really is a golden age for these reunions because these artists music never really happened to go away due to streaming. You're able to. It's so much easier for veteran artists. I mean, if they can puncture the din of there being so much out there. There are opportunities to not only reach your old fans, but reach younger ones as well. And I always love to see. I always love to get some email in my inbox. So and so puts out first album in 29 years. Pulp. Pulp put out the first album in a quarter of a century.

[Robin Hilton]

This year, Sugar Sugar came back with new music for the first time in forever. There's so many. I wrote down a whole bunch here.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah, Clips came back with their first album in, I think, nine years.

[Robin Hilton]

I thought it was like 14 or something.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

No, you're right. I think it's since like 2000. Something 2009.

[Robin Hilton]

That's where you're getting the nine.

[Stephen Thompson]

And it was a huge. And it was a huge hit.

[Ann Powers]

And it's a great album.

[Stephen Thompson]

It's a great album. It was a huge hit. It found its audience, and they sound as vital as ever.

[Robin Hilton]

We've got to move on to the next quarter, but I'm just going to rattle off some of the releases we got in the first quarter. Just along with the Bad Bunny, we had the Lady Gaga album that came out her first in five years. Japanese Breakfast came back, first album in four years. We got the FKA Twigs record in that first quarter. Usexua. Sharon Van Etten comes back with the Attachment Theory. Wow. What a wild.

[Ann Powers]

Did you see the show? Did you see the show, Robin?

[Robin Hilton]

I totally went to that show.

[Ann Powers]

Oh, my God. She was just on fire. Like, I've never seen her so thrilled.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah, Full rock.

[Stephen Thompson]

She has become like a rock idol. Yeah, yeah. But also, how did that album come out this year? I feel like that album came out six years ago.

[Robin Hilton]

I made some notes about artists we lost in the first quarter. There were many, including Marianne Faithfull and Bill Fay. I know you wanted to talk briefly, Anne, about Roberta Flack.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah, well, Roberta Flack. Such a huge loss. I think the beautiful thing with someone like Roberta is that her genius has been recognized in the past few years very widely, and she got to experience a lot of love in her final years. But I'm glad we're all remembering her. I feel similar about Roy Ayers, who we lost in March, and Marianne. Marianne is someone who I think wasn't always recognized as central to rock and roll, but. But when she left us, she received the goodbyes she deserved. So I guess it was a good year for legacy in that these artists are being acknowledged as they leave us. Well.

[Stephen Thompson]

And another person we lost in the first quarter, who's a musician, but more music adjacent is David Lynch.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah, huge. Huge. For me, that was very emotional.

[Stephen Thompson]

Absolutely crushing loss, you know, and somebody who not only had his own kind of musical side and his own musical sensibility, but somebody who had always so lovingly provided, you know, showcases for. For the music that he loved and. And, you know, was such a was such a great caretaker of music.

[Robin Hilton]

That was another one. I'm like, that was this year.

[Stephen Thompson]

I know. This message comes from Schwab. Everyone has moments when they could have done better, like cutting their own hair or forgetting sunscreen. So now you look like a tomato. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education and human help when you need it.

[Announcer]

Learn [e-mail] this message comes from Progressive Insurance. Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. This message comes from BetterHelp. The holidays are a time of traditions, like making your grandmother's pudding recipe or watching that movie you've seen a thousand times. Incorporating therapy into your life can help you take time for yourself during what can be a joyful but sometimes tough time of year. And by caring for yourself, you can show up more for the important moments. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Visit betterhelp.com NPR for 10% off. This message comes from Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, let's move to the second quarter.

[Stephen Thompson]

Something I've been wanting to tell you.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

For a long time.

[Stephen Thompson]

It might hurt you.

[Robin Hilton]

Hope you don't lose your mind.

[Stephen Thompson]

Well, I was just a boy about 8 years old. You threw me a bible. One of the biggest movie stories of 2025, but also a huge music story. Sinners. This film, Ryan Coogler's vampire movie, this arty vampire movie full of music, full of vibrant, stylish original music, you know, become this massive phenomenon. And Ann and I, I know, are both huge film buffs. And you know, when you look at like the box office every year for like the biggest movies of the year and it's just franchise, franchise, sequel, franchise, franchise. And all of a sudden just having an original piece of filmmaking, the music from that film is going to be as much a topic of the Oscars conversation as the film itself.

[Ann Powers]

Yes. Oh completely. Well, as a lifelong fan of the blues, I was so excited to see a film that tells the story of the blues so artfully. And of course we have the presence of Buddy Guy. Really one of the Last Standing from the classic era of electric blues. Buddy Guy is still with us. And to have him in the film and just really, it's a profound meditation on how black Americans have given us so much musically and yet so much has been taken.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, this is, I think, the song that we've been listening to. I Lied to you, performed by Miles Caton, is the song from the film. It's most definitely going to be nominated for Best original song, I think when the Oscars come around and it features Miles Caton, who, I mean, at least for me, came completely out of nowhere.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

And that one sequence in the movie, I think that's one of the sequences from any film that's, like, stayed with me the most this year is how Ryan Coogler manages to have these, like, intergenerational conversations with the evolution of black music and black art. And it was just a really beautiful interpretation of that. I was really blown away by the way that he pulled that off. But I think it ultimately worked really well. And it was a very poetic way to make that point in a very show not tell kind of way.

[Stephen Thompson]

I hope you can stand it Stand it all. See I'm full of the blues Holy water.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah. The thing about that was it was just so bonkers, and yet it worked so perfectly. You never stopped and thought, well, wait a minute, what's Parliament doing here? Or whatever, right? You know, it's like, this is brilliant. Well, I think this song, I Lied to youo, will definitely come up at the Oscars this year. And there's another song that will probably come up at the Oscars this year that came from another film that came out in the second quarter, and that's K Poppin Demon Hunters. I live two lives Try to play.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Both sides But I couldn't find my own place Caught a problem child Cause I got too wild but now that's how I'm getting paid could that be on stage? I'm done hiding Now I'm shining like a burn Be we dreaming heart we came so far Now I believe we're going up it's our moment, you know, together we're flowing. Gonna be. Gonna be going.

[Stephen Thompson]

As NPR's K Pop Demon Hunters correspondent.

[Robin Hilton]

We go now live to Stephen Thompson, K Pop Demon Hunters correspondent.

[Stephen Thompson]

I mean, look, this is launching a franchise. Yes.

[Robin Hilton]

No, this is only the beginning.

[Stephen Thompson]

So to suggest that this is some standalone work that will never be monetized again would be pretty naive. But what a wonderful surprise. You know, this animated movie released on Netflix, you know, about two fictional K Pop Groups, the Huntricks, who double as demon hunters and Saja Boys, who are themselves demons, became one of the true authentic pop culture phenomena of 2025. And really like one of the biggest stories in movies this year and in music this year these songs dominated on the pop chart. It was a true word of mouth sensation where it didn't just feel like it just. It didn't just feel like an industry trying to game the char. Felt like people were discovering this on their own and then playing it over and over and over and over again. And it served as a huge gateway into K pop music for a lot of music fans. You know, put some of the most indelible pop songs of the year onto the charts and was a source of almost unanimous joy and praise. People really, really like this movie and really, really love these songs.

[Robin Hilton]

What do you think? Golden's the song.

[Stephen Thompson]

Golden's the primary song. There's submitting for Oscar consideration. It's the one that's nominated for. It's not only nominated for a Grammy in the film category, but in song of the year. You know, it's going to be a big part of the awards conversation and it not for nothing, truly one of 2025's biggest hits.

[Ann Powers]

And it's got a heartwarming story attached to it. Right, because one of the songwriters, ej, ej, she had kind of tried to make it as a K pop performer and then had ended up, I think, moving to la. And then she writes a song and sings it. Right. And that vocal performance is insane. Oh boy.

[Stephen Thompson]

I mean, if you haven't had a chance to go on YouTube and watch reaction videos of vocal coaches hearing that song and speculating about how she hit the notes. Oh my God, did they use any sweetener, et cetera, like the conversations around people just reacting to what a magnificent vocal performance that is, has been fun in its own right.

[Ann Powers]

Can't wait to see her sing it at the Oscars. Please let her sing it at the Academy Awards.

[Stephen Thompson]

I would imagine they're gonna try to figure something out. They like raping.

[Robin Hilton]

I don't think that went well this year.

[Ann Powers]

No.

[Robin Hilton]

I know when they dropped the performances, I don't think they were so wrong.

[Stephen Thompson]

But it was an extremely weak crop of songs.

[Robin Hilton]

It was.

[Stephen Thompson]

I'm not defending the decision. I think those songs should be performed in the ceremony. I think you're completely right, Anne. But I get why they did it.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, there was another really big story that began to unfold in the second quarter and kind of dominated the headlines for months. Starting in May, when jury selection for the Sean Combs trial began.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah, the sex trafficking and racketeering trial of Sean Combs, AKA Puff Daddy P. Diddy, Brother Love as some people know him. I was there for almost all of the trial, starting with jury selection until the very end of jury deliberations. It was a big story that seemed to get crazier and crazier as it went on. I think we were expecting media attention to somehow die down, and it only ramped up. You know, I think it was. It was the big story of the year, of how, like, the power and influence that Sean Combs had over the music and entertainment industry and how he wielded that power and ultimately who it harmed. It was a. There were a lot of music industry cameos. You know, obviously Cassi Ventura testified, his ex girlfriend and the singer Kid Cudi testified. Dawn Richard testified. I mean, it was a big music media story, and it was a. It was a hard one to follow. But, yeah, we were. We were there.

[Ann Powers]

Isabella, do you think the verdict is causing or going to cause a chilling effect around sexual assaults and sexual harassment in the music industry?

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I mean, I don't think it's actually the verdict that's having that impact. I think what was the most interesting to watch was the people who were coming to the trial already had their minds made up that these allegations weren't something to take seriously, or at least a lot of the people there. I can tell you that the vast majority of people I saw during most of the days I were there were pro Sean Combs. They were, you know, pointing and laughing while these women were testifying. I think being at the trial gave me a sense that attitudes towards sexual assault and especially sexual assault regarding very powerful people have shifted in our society. And I think we are not where we were during the rise of MeToo. You know, eight years ago. I think that things, even before the verdict was handed out, I think that that started to become very clear. And I think for a lot of people, the verdict reinforces that. That, you know, we're just in a different place now. And the seriousness with which people address those allegations looks very different today than it did during the beginning of MeToo.

[Ann Powers]

That's very depressing, I have to say, and disturbing.

[Robin Hilton]

I mean, honestly, it was all so upsetting and just messed up that I had a hard time really engaging with it much beyond, you know, like the headlines and the top level stuff, but definitely sucked up a lot of the oxygen in the spring and the summer. And that verdict came in July. In the third quarter, he was acquitted.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Of racketeering and he was acquitted of sex trafficking.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

And he was convicted on two counts of transportation for prostitution. And, you know, ultimately, I think the judge did address the fact that there was a lot of evidence of physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, and that those are things to be taken seriously. But he was not convicted on, you know, those most serious charges.

[Robin Hilton]

Some of the other stuff on my list here, Billy Joel falling down during one of his live shows was so heartbroken by that. And then he was later diagnosed with something called normal pressure hydrocephalus, which you can recover from. But, you know, I worship that guy and his music so much. And I've never seen him live.

[Ann Powers]

Oh, really? That's crazy.

[Robin Hilton]

Never seen him live.

[Ann Powers]

But did you watch the documentary? I will say that that is such sad. That was such sad news about him canceling his tour. But the documentary, that was a really deep and profound look at his life, his psychology, his family history. Really one of the best in a year of very good music docs. That was a great one.

[Robin Hilton]

Yeah. I should have made note of that documentary in the third quarter. I think that came out in July. It was Billy Joel, and so it goes. And I did see that. I think it was two parts.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

And it was really, really well done. I just. I had no idea how much he had struggled, particularly early on in his life, with depression, and he spent time in the hospital.

[Stephen Thompson]

Well, and I think that documentary is part of a larger conversation that has been unfolding very slowly over the course of the years and certainly over the course of this year, about musicians and mental health and how kind of a lot of the structures around mental health that exist for a lot of people don't necessarily. Aren't necessarily available even to very famous and successful musicians. And, you know, the Bruce Springsteen biopic that came out later in the year than we're currently talking about is, I think, part of that conversation where Springsteen has talked openly about his battles with depression. And I think slowly, there's been kind of a drip, drip, drip in favor of making sure that musicians have access to the mental health care that they need.

[Ann Powers]

Yes, absolutely. And it gives me a chance to mention my favorite music doc of the year. Swamp Dog Gets His Pool Painted. You guys have probably not seen this movie, but absolutely have to. It is totally genius. It is about the unclassifiable roots music phenomenon. Who is Swamp Dog? He's an elder. And his life in Burbank, his whole life, but currently his life in Burbank, where he Lives with some of his friends and collaborators after the loss of his wife. And these guys, they had their own struggles, many different kinds. And it's really a movie about mutual care. That's what I have to say, which I think, Stephen fits in with what you're saying. It's a beautiful movie. It's so heartwarming. I encourage everyone to watch it.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, we've kind of already morphed into the third quarter here. Let's talk about the Oasis reunion tour that started in July, on July 4th.

[Ann Powers]

Oh, my gosh, it was so massive. I had friends who went, you know, flew to England to see them. It's just such a cultural event for people who love Brit pop. Yeah, major. But then on the other hand, I don't know, I think it was like a big nothing for people who didn't care about Oasis. So it was strange. Maybe. It's very much indicative of this moment where you can have massive, massive crowds of fans freaking out about something and then a lot of people who are just like, meh, whatever.

[Robin Hilton]

I mean, that's the thing I was gonna ask. Was it a really big thing?

[Stephen Thompson]

It was.

[Robin Hilton]

Did people really care? Because I. It was okay. I mean, Robin was on his end.

[Ann Powers]

Retreat during the ent.

[Stephen Thompson]

I mean, first of all, if Oasis was your band, it's the biggest thing on earth. But it's also worth noting. I mean, this is the product of years and years and years of false starts and canceled plans.

[Ann Powers]

Cain and Abel level brothers fighting.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah. Wheelbarrows full of money being dumped out in front of these guys, trying to get them to reunite and tour together and just get their act together long enough to perform on stage for a few hours each night. And so I think part of it is that story has been kind of self sustaining over the course of the years that these guys just could not get along well enough to tour together. And the fact that they were able to not only reunite and mount this very successful tour, but, like, leave that experience with, you know, the possibility of more touring in the future, you know, is a story.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I think it was also a big, multi generational moment for Oasis. Like, I saw. I mean, I didn't go, but I saw so many videos of parents with their kids. How important it was to, like, for older fans of Oasis to bring their kids to these shows. A lot of young people discovering them for the first time. I mean, NA Scalagher, who is the daughter of one of the brothers, was on tour with them and documenting it. Like, there was a big sort of family aspect to this tour that I thought was really beautiful to watch from afar.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, maybe this is a good time to talk about the state of live music in general, because I felt like 2025 was a year when I heard about more tour cancellations than ever before, and I heard more about just the punishing economics of touring live than ever before. And it was really kind of depressing, like, you know, garbage. They had to cancel their tour, and Shirley Manson told the crowd that, you know, they just can't afford to do it anymore because it's gotten so expensive. And you think, my gosh, if bands that are filling massive stadiums are struggling, how are any bands surviving? Especially when streaming services and that whole model has already sort of cut off all of their money supply and touring and merch were the only things keeping them afloat. It felt like a particularly grim year for live music to me, both in.

[Stephen Thompson]

Streaming and in touring. There are gigantic corporations that are taking all the money.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah.

[Stephen Thompson]

And so it's very hard to make the economics work.

[Ann Powers]

I agree with you guys. So many artists feel squeezed living in Nashville. I see this all the time. And even things like airlines changing their policies about how you can, you know, can you bring your instrument on board because it's so dangerous to check your instrument. Do you have to buy another airplane seat to bring your guitar on board? I saw so many reports of that this year from people I know in.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Nashville, and we're seeing more and more artists stand up to this. Earlier this year, Caroline Rose did. She released an album that she only put on Bandcamp. Like, she refused to put it on any of the DSPs, and she only toured independent venues. And she told me it was, like, the most rewarding thing she's ever done, but it's not sustainable. So I think, yeah, more and more artists are. We're seeing less and less of, like, a middle ground for working artists who can actually support themselves making music and playing on the road. Unless you're, you know, Taylor Swift or Beyonce.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, one other live show that I want to be sure to mention that happened in the third quarter was Ozzy Osbourne's final concert. That actually was on July 5, the day after the Oasis reunion tour started. Ozzy Osbourne's final concert with Black Sabbath, he did much of the show. Well, I think actually the entire show seeded because of his battle with Parkinson's, and then he ended up passing away. I think it was only a couple weeks afterwards.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah. And that was a huge loss. I mean, you talk about somebody who's been a part of the cultural firmament for decades now, not only as a musician, as a heavy metal icon, but as a very, very influential reality TV star. That's true. You know, somebody who's. Who's been a staple of commercials. Somebody who has just been part of the cultural conversation certainly my entire life. And I'm pretty old. It was a huge loss, but the.

[Ann Powers]

Final concert was really heartwarming.

[Robin Hilton]

Thank you. From the bottom of my heart. It is, uncle mama, I'm coming home.

[Ann Powers]

And back to what I was saying before about how it's always hard to lose people and certainly hard to lose legends, but it's been great to see the appreciation for some of these elders while they're still alive. And I really felt that with Ozzie, and I was so happy that that concert happened, and he got to really bask in the love of so many of his. His children, essentially.

[Robin Hilton]

We also lost in the third quarter Sly Stone and Brian Wilson.

[Ann Powers]

Major, major, major. We are, you know, for so many years, even back when I was working at the New York Times many years ago in the 90s, we were kind of preparing for this moment that would happen. It is just a natural life cycle, and we're hitting it with these legends. It's hard, but it's humanity, you know?

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah, but you mentioned this may be the first time that these names are spoken in the same sentence, but, you know, you mentioned, you know, an artist receiving their flowers while they're still alive. Not only did that happen with Ozzy Osbourne, it happened with Connie Francis.

[Ann Powers]

That's true. That's right.

[Stephen Thompson]

Connie Francis had this massive viral moment with pretty little baby blowing up on TikTok.

[Robin Hilton]

Pretty little bab. Pretty little baby pretty little baby.

[Announcer]

Pretty.

[Ann Powers]

Little baby you say that maybe you'll.

[Stephen Thompson]

Be thinking of me and try to.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Love me Pretty little baby, I'm hoping that you do.

[Stephen Thompson]

And she got to experience this wave of intergenerational love and appreciation very, very shortly before she died. And that really is one of the things. You know, it's very easy for us to fixate on all of the terrible things about the Internet and technology right now. But the fact that young music fans have at their fingertips access to this incredibly vast archive allows some of these elders to receive their floating flowers in ways that they wouldn't have in previous generations.

[Announcer]

Support for NPR and the following message come from homeserve. Owning a home is full of surprises. And when something breaks, it can feel like the whole day unravels. Homeserve is ready to help, bringing peace of mind to 4 1/2 million homeowners nationwide. Plans start at just $4.99 a month. Sign up [e-mail] not available everywhere. Most plans range between $4.99 to $11.99 a month. Your first year terms apply on covered repairs.

[Robin Hilton]

I just want to remind everybody that we're going to do the best albums and best songs episodes as separate episodes, which is one of the reasons why we're not spending much time here on individual albums that came out, because there were a lot of big ones. But I do want to flag one that came out in the third quarter at the end of August, the Sabrina Carpenter album, Man's Best Friend.

[Ann Powers]

I get wet that I thought you.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Responsible guy.

[Ann Powers]

Treating me like you're supposed.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

To do tears run down my thighs.

[Robin Hilton]

And I think of this one because this was one of those albums. And again, this could just be my perception because we all live in bubbles, but it felt to me like there were so many artists and albums like the Sabrina Carpenter one that were massively anticipated and get released, and everyone's excited, and then two weeks later or even a week later, it's like nobody's talking about it anymore. Am I wrong? Like, what about. What about the Lord record?

[Stephen Thompson]

Well, sure, I think you're wrong also. Yeah, I think that's a misconception, at least. I mean, certainly in terms of the Sabrina Carpenter. The Sabrina Carpenter record is still in the top 10. You know, she's continued to have a massive year. She had the. You know, she had a number one single with ManChild, which has one of the best videos of 2025. Maybe not to the degree that her kind of the explosion of her career that took place last year, but it felt like a continuation of it. The Lorde record, I think, had a. More of a trajectory, at least chart wise, of the. Of the kind that you're talking about, where she put out this. This massively anticipated record definitely had a lot of interest, and then it kind of quickly subsided.

[Robin Hilton]

I mean, again, I'm not saying these are bad records, but like the Heim record, I don't know. Maybe it's just. Maybe, again, this is just my perception because we consume so much music and we have to move on quickly.

[Ann Powers]

But the weekend record. The weekend record came out this year. We didn't end up really seeing that bubbling in the consciousness. I'm gonna walk the middle line between you two, Robin and Steven. I agree with. With your impulse to say, Robyn, that it was an underperforming year for pop phenomena. That doesn't mean the albums are bad. That doesn't mean they're not selling. But Sabrina is a great example of that. Like, she continued to reach milestones. For example, I saw her play at the Grand Ole Opry for the first time, which was a wonderful moment for her. But it didn't feel like these artists were ruling the Zeitgeist. And maybe. Maybe it's just. Cause the whole phenomenon of women, you know, really ruling mainstream pop, you know, had reached this fever pitch with the ERAS tour, with Sabrina's emergence with, you know, Olivia Rodrigo. Right. Yeah, exactly. That this is the inevitable sort of morning after Come down a little bit.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I agree with you, Van. I do think some of this is a little bit of, like, a hangover from how big 2024 was and just how splashy all of these artists in pop were at the same time. I think this is also just a symptom of how fractured audiences and fan bases are right now and just how much we're all in our own individual algorithms and playlists and bubbles. Because one of the albums, Robyn, that I know you had referenced as part of this was the Addison Rae album, which did come out to sort of a big splash, and then it was subdued. But I went to see her in the fall, and the hype is very much alive. Like, on the tour, it was like, you know, people screaming. I couldn't see anything. It was all phone screens. It was. No one could drink, right? The bar was completely empty. Everyone was 21 and under. I was by far the oldest person there. And it was just like, wow, this is a much bigger phenomenon than I realized or than I would realize if I wasn't just taking the time to listen to the album. So I think part of it is just we're all so segmented that it's hard to have, like, this big sort of monoculture moment the way that we did last year.

[Stephen Thompson]

I think it's important to kind of point out here. I think part of what we're getting at here is how many artists, their fan bases exist in silos that are not necessarily interacting with each other. And it's very easy, certainly for me, as somebody who writes about the Billboard charts every week, to think of the Billboard charts as the only metric to gauge popularity. And it just isn't. It's amazing how many artists essentially never hit the Billboard charts, but can fill stadiums, right?

[Robin Hilton]

Or even have the streams. I mean, I've looked at artists on, say, Spotify to see how, you know, I know they're filling massive stadiums 20,000 people. And then I go to Spotify and they've got under 2 million, you know, monthly listens or whatever. And I think, where is this audience coming from?

[Ann Powers]

I feel like Conan Gray as an artist is kind of in that category. For example, like, he does. I mean, I know he has a huge following. Does he have, you know, has he uncharted hits? I mean, probably, but his albums do.

[Stephen Thompson]

But he's. He kind of has part of that trajectory that Issa referred to a little bit about Addison Rae, where, like, it blows up in the first week, but all of the efforts are focused on getting this album to chart as high as possible in its first week, at which point it just drops into oblivion. And that trajectory plays out over and over and over again. Because every new artist who puts out an album is competing with Fleetwood Max Rumors.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah, exactly.

[Stephen Thompson]

For chart placement or, you know, Lil Wayne's Greatest Hits.

[Ann Powers]

Or Shibuzzi Forever with one song. Teddy Swims. Yeah.

[Stephen Thompson]

Or oh, my God, Ordinary. Or oh, my God, we haven't even talked about Alex Warren. And Ordinary must.

[Ann Powers]

Sweet. Okay, last bit, Robert, you can cut this out, but I just have to note the historic moment that happened in Nashville when Somber and Conan Gray played on the same night. And they did meet. They somehow walked across town and met each other. And like, not in an alleyway, but in somewhere backstage. Historic moment that no one noticed except for tens of thousands of people.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I did see it on TikTok. Oh, yes, yes.

[Ann Powers]

I love it. I love it.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I will say. And like, I'm glad you brought up Somber, because I do think boys are having a sneaky year in pop this year. Like, obviously there's Alex Warren, role model, Somber. Yes, Even Conan Gray. Like, these people have huge fan bases and they play to really big crowds at festivals. Like, the role model phenomenon has been really interesting to watch this year.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

That whole Sally is small compared to Charlie.

[Stephen Thompson]

Well, and yeah, and I went to the. You mentioned festivals. I went to the All Things Go festival here in the D.C. area this fall. And yeah, having that experience around, like, medium build, you know, I love medium build.

[Ann Powers]

That's my guy. I love that guy.

[Stephen Thompson]

He's great. But it was like watching all these 20 year olds freak out and I'm like, is that guy Medium build or is that role model? I can't remember.

[Ann Powers]

Or Joe. Or Joe Djo or whatever. Right?

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Or Djo for sure. Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

No mention of Benson Boone. Come on.

[Ann Powers]

Oh, don't forget Benson Boone.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

But guys, Benson Boone did kind of fall off.

[Ann Powers]

But did he, though? Because I think he's really big globally. But, Robin, to your point, I mean, even indie sensations like Geese, everybody of a certain kind, especially people in New York who are hipsters, they love that band.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Well, call me out, Anne.

[Ann Powers]

But I mean that. It was a. It was a true phenomenon, I think. But for whom? Not for everyone. Not necessarily in Nashville, you know, not necessarily. I don't know if it resonated as much on the West Coast. I think I like the Geese record a lot. I'm looking forward to being able to see them live. I never have, but, you know, I feel like even a huge explosion is happening across a vast expanse from a lot of people.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I feel like Geese was being pushed onto me so heavily. And I've seen a lot of discussion about this online, like, is the hype real, or is everyone just talking about them? And we're creating an echo chamber where everyone is idolizing Geese and obsessed with this album. And because it was like, I would finish listening to something and Spotify would automatically play the Geese record. Or, like, one of those songs is all over TikTok. Like, I think part of it is also just algorithms. I hear it everywhere, so I come back to it, but I don't know how much of it is me seeking it out.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah.

[Stephen Thompson]

I mean, what's that?

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

But I guess that's just music listening today. I don't know.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah.

[Stephen Thompson]

What's the Bo Burnham line? The backlash to. The backlash to the thing that's just begun.

[Ann Powers]

Well said.

[Robin Hilton]

So it came out at the end of September. This is one of those albums that actually I love so much, and I just assumed all my friends with similar music tastes would also love. And it's so mixed. It's just across the board. Some really, really hate it. Some don't get it. Some really, really love it.

[Ann Powers]

This is my point.

[Robin Hilton]

This is my point.

[Ann Powers]

Like, even the thing that we should all be uniting around, people are not uniting around.

[Robin Hilton]

We should be uniting around Geese.

[Ann Powers]

This could solve our national crises, all of them, if we just united around Geese.

[Robin Hilton]

All right, well, so that brings us to the fourth and final quarter. I do want to talk about some more music that came out in this fourth quarter, because there's some very important big releases. But I actually want to start with something that happened in September, and that was on September 13th when the Lilith Fair documentary dropped, Building a Mystery. If you have not seen this. And I want to talk about. Because I finally just watched it recently, and it's really been on my mind because I was so deep into the Lilith Faircore scene back in the 90s. I listened to all of that music so much. I love Sarah McLachlan and, you know, Alanis Morris said Joan Osborne, you name it.

[Ann Powers]

Tori, Tori, Tori.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh, my gosh. Although I don't think Tori ever played Lilith Fair.

[Ann Powers]

No, she didn't. She was divided. Yeah.

[Robin Hilton]

P.J. harvey, I consider part of that scene. Although she also never played Lilith Fair. Fiona. Oh, my gosh. But, you know, it wasn't just that. If you watch the documentary, I get so much grief from friends when I say, oh, Lilith Ferrell. Oh, my God, I love that. Because everyone assumes it's like sappy, overly earnest singer songwriter stuff. But it's not just that. And I mean, you watch the documentary, My gosh. Missy Elliott, her first tour was for Lilith Fair.

[Ann Powers]

Crazy.

[Robin Hilton]

And if you watch the documentary, you get to not only see Ann Powers as a talking head talking about it, you get to see Anne at Lilith Fair over 25 years ago. Oh, my God, it was. I couldn't believe it.

[Ann Powers]

Well, how. Think how I felt. I didn't know that was in there until I saw the documentary.

[Robin Hilton]

I just assumed you had the footage or something and gave it to them.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah.

[Ann Powers]

So they found that they were bugging me forever. Jessica Hopper, the great music critic and filmmaker, was very involved in making of that film, and that's how I got connected to it. But, yeah, they were, like, coming to me for. Ow. I don't know, like a year or two. Don't you have any pictures of yourself? And I'm like, no, I didn't save anything. They found it, though, somehow. So pretty cool. Pretty crazy.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, Anne, I've got to believe that this was really important to you too, and a big moment. And the documentary is arriving somewhere between the 25th and the 30th anniversary. You could say it was the 25th anniversary of the tour ending or the nearly 30th anniversary of it beginning. But it feels like this was a year when I heard people referencing that era more than ever. I think of bands like Muna fronted by Katie Gavin. I heard so many people. Steven, I know you're a big Katie Gavin fan. Oh, my gosh.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yes.

[Robin Hilton]

Make references to Lilith fare in her sound.

[Stephen Thompson]

Yeah. I mean, seeing Moona in concert and having them kind of culminate their set with their performance of A Thousand Miles by Vanessa Carlton.

[Robin Hilton]

Oh, wow.

[Ann Powers]

Yes. We did an episode of All Songs plus on that set.

[Stephen Thompson]

You did.

[Ann Powers]

Well, I think the Lilith revival has landed at exactly the perfect moment because, well, we didn't mention Sarah McLachlan is also back with the new album this year.

[Robin Hilton]

Very good new album came out in September as well. And it is genuinely great. It is so good.

[Ann Powers]

So women have really firmly claimed their place as visionaries and innovators and as really, really popular artists. And I think we talk so much about mainstream pop girlies that we forget that the playing field has changed across the board in every genre. Even in blues, it's kind of wild. But there are so many young women blues guitarists, like, you know, Grace Bowers, for example, that are amazing. So I think this is the perfect time for Lilith Fair to have a revival. We bring it back, bring it back, bring the tour back.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

And I think Lars was the one who was talking about this for a while that, like, this style of sound, like Maggie Rogers transitioning to, like, a folkier sound. You know, we have people like Jensen McRae, like acoustic pop and those sort of, like, women singer songwriters are really. Have been back for a few years, I think, and it's something that audiences are really embracing.

[Robin Hilton]

I want to go back to Bad Bunny because we said he was sort of present all year long, and he ended up having a really big fall as well. September, late September, I think it was September 29th. He gets tapped to play the super bowl halftime show at next year's super bowl, and it completely blows up.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

I mean, as can be expected, there was. There was some backlash to the idea that, you know, a Latin artist was going to be playing the Super bowl in 2026. I think there was a lot of people making the reminder that Puerto Rico is part of the United States. That's not necessarily, I think, the line that we need to underline, but I think it is an important part to bring up. But, yeah, I mean, I think to Steven's point, like, he's one of the biggest artists in the world. He put out this huge, revolutionary album, and it makes complete sense for him to be there. But I think the conversation around it has been a little surprising, just because I truly don't believe that this many people didn't know who Bad Bunny was, to be honest. I agree with you completely, but I think he's kind of on a similar trajectory as Kendrick. Yeah, I think he's having this big year, you know. Then he goes on to win Album of the Year for the first time at the Latin Grammys. He's nominated for Album of the Year, Song of the Year, and Record of the Year at the general Grammys. Coming up in February, he'll be doing the Super Bowl. I mean, I think he's really sort of kicking off a big winning season. And the controversy, I mean, you know, he doesn't really seem like he cares all that much.

[Stephen Thompson]

No.

[Ann Powers]

Isabella, can you explain something to me? Why do you think this controversy is arising, given that Shakira and Jennifer Lopez.

[Stephen Thompson]

Thank you. I was just gonna.

[Robin Hilton]

Why do you think it's happening now? I can think of a few reasons.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah, no, no, no. I know why it's happening, but Mark.

[Stephen Thompson]

Here, he has played the super bowl before. Yeah, he was on the stage with.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

He came out with Shakira and jla.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah, exactly. So I guess you're right. But given the precedent, it's not unprecedented.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah, no. And I think Bad Bunny has become increasingly political and increasingly unapologetic in his music in a way that. I mean, he always has been. But I think it's become more and more explicit, even for people who weren't sort of reading into those messages before. And, you know, I think that rubs a certain part of the country the wrong way, because he's. He's standing up for immigrants, he's standing up for Latino communities. And, you know, he famously says he doesn't care what other people think. So I think, obviously he has haters for that.

[Ann Powers]

I honestly can't think of anyone else who should play the super bowl this year. I really can't. Like, it's such an obvious pick to me.

[Stephen Thompson]

Well, it did seem like, if you recall, the announcement of Bad Bunny performing at the super bowl was delayed by several weeks. It dropped weeks later than it usually does. And at the time, there was a lot of speculation swirling that the halftime performer would be Taylor sw. And when you think about it, I don't know who. I can't think of who else might play the Super Bowl. I think there was an assumption for a time that it would be her. And whoever said yes, whoever said no, that was a lot of the conversation that. I certainly had this assumption it was gonna be Taylor Swift, and she was probably assuming that Travis Kelce would be playing in that game. But, Robin, that seems exceedingly unlikely.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, they announced their engagement. I think it was the end of August. And the Chiefs have gone on to have an absolutely dismal season.

[Ann Powers]

All I can say is I believe Taylor when she says she wants to take a little time off. That's why I didn't. I know it's hard possible to believe, but I actually. I really think she wants to have at least six months where she doesn't have to stage an insane spectacle. I don't know.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, we should talk about Taylor's album that came out at least in October. Life of a showgirl I heard you.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Calling on the megaphone? You wanna see me all alone?

[Robin Hilton]

As legend has it, you are quite the pyro.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

You light the match to wash it blow.

[Ann Powers]

So she puts out this record and I have to admit, I thought there would be a backlash. I did not expect the backlash to be so intense. So she also. I do think it was the way the record dropped and the fact that the track that has widely been interpreted as a diss on Charli XCX leaked the night before the record was released. Right, guys, I'm right about that. And that just like it was like putting, you know, something really sour in the punch. I think that really fed the backlash that was perhaps inevitable. At the same time, did the record work 100%? I don't think it worked 100%, but I was surprised by the intensity of the backlash.

[Stephen Thompson]

Well, I think some of the backlash against this record is also rooted in the way that it was rolled out. Not only the many, many, many, many variant physical editions of this record that were compelling fans to buy. I think there were 27 different physical variant editions of this record.

[Ann Powers]

Yeah, but that's capitalism, everybody. I mean, to a certain.

[Stephen Thompson]

I know completely, believe me, I. I write about the Billboard charts every week. Every single pop star does this. Every pop star, like, hopes and expects that fans will buy multiple copies of their record to help you kind of goose their sales numbers. But felt like there was a little bit of a tipping point in the conversation around that where it started it to feel more like exploitation of fans and fans willingness to shell out money. But, you know, I think she has also reached this level of omnipresence where she's essentially too big to fail. And I do think that fans were disappointed in this record in ways that I haven't heard them be disappointed in other Taylor Swift records.

[Ann Powers]

That is definitely true.

[Robin Hilton]

Well, like I said, we're going to talk a whole lot more about the best albums and songs and everything in separate episodes. But there was one other very big album that came out in this last quarter that I have to mention, even though I just mentioned it on All Songs Considered. Well, it was on New Music Friday. We had it on the show. And that's Rosalia's luxury. Album of the year for me. Steven. I think it's album for you. I don't know, Isabella.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah, I mean, I was just completely like, my jaw was on the ground. Definitely album of the year she exceeded all expectations. And, yeah, she's. She's back. She's back and her crown's on her head. That halo is firm on the top of her head.

[Ann Powers]

I think the rollout has been great, too, and I expected nothing less. But she's, you know, her listening party was gorgeous. If you saw images from it. She's really able to make clear why she created this framework for her music. I mean, who else brought it to the level of opera? Who else brought it to the, you know, the level of La Boheme? Only Rosalia.

[Isabella Gomez Sarmiento]

Yeah. And I think. I think going back to what we were talking about earlier about the algorithm and how fractured everyone is, I think she. It's been really interesting to see her talk about how she doesn't want to make things easy for her audience. I went to one of the listening sessions, and it was really beautiful that she really just wanted you to sit there and spend, you know, the entire time with the music sitting still, taking it all in, reading the lyrics, understanding the translation. Like, I appreciate how much she doesn't want to make this digestion, and she wants you to work and to earn it. And I think that's really commendable right now.

[Stephen Thompson]

The degree to which you can get lost down a rabbit hole of exploring all the sounds and all the vibes and translations of the lyrics and the themes of this record. I mean, I was halfway through this record the first time I listened to it, and I thought, oh, I think this is the album of the year. And how often does that happen?

[Robin Hilton]

Well, we've got a whole month's worth of year end stuff coming all through December, as I mentioned. Best songs, best albums. We're gonna have a listener poll. We're bringing that back. The poll itself is up now, so you can vote for the year's best albums. What else? We're gonna have songs that hit hard in 2025. We've got that ongoing series, Vikings Choice. Stephen, you and I will have our annual holiday extravaganza.

[Stephen Thompson]

We sure will.

[Robin Hilton]

A very tolerable Christmas hitting the road this year. Headed to Wisconsin.

[Stephen Thompson]

That's right.

[Robin Hilton]

But what a ride. We'll see you 2025. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Ann Powers]

That's right. Absolutely.

[Robin Hilton]

Amp hours. Isabella Gomez Sarmiento, Stephen Thompson. Thanks so much, everyone.

[Ann Powers]

This was really fun. Thanks. Thank you.

[Robin Hilton]

And for NPR Music, I'm Robin Hilton. It's all songs Consider.

[Announcer]

This message comes from the Council for Interior Design Qualification, interior designer and CIDQ president Siyavash Madani discusses why Certified professionals know that good design is more than just how something looks.

[Stephen Thompson]

Being NCIDQ certified means you've qualified to protect the health, safety and welfare of the public in the spaces that you design. Good design is never just about aesthetics. It's about intention, safety, and impact. So an NCIDQ certified interior designer must complete a minimum of six years of specialized education and work experience and pass the three part NCIDQ exam. All three exams emphasize and focus on health, safety and welfare of the occupants. Being NCIDQ certified means that you've proven your knowledge and skills through rigorous exams and are recognized as a qualified interior design professional.

[Announcer]

Learn [e-mail] NPR.