Robin Hilton (2:43)

Did your heart sink a little bit when you saw my email? You're like, oh, no, not again.

Ann Powers (2:47)

It's true, it's true.

Robin Hilton (2:49)

So you host Big Bandsplain, you host the Bandsplain podcast. Do you want to make a quick, shameless plug for your show?

Yasi Salak (2:55)

Sure. We explain bands on the Bandsplain podcast, often at great and excruciating detailed length. So if you like what you're hearing now in this vocal fry container, there's more for you in the Bandsplain podcast. And if you don't, that's so wonderful. And I wish you the best in your life.

Robin Hilton (3:14)

And I know you and Yossi have done at least a couple episodes together, including the history making nearly seven hour, two part discussion about PJ Harvey. And you also talked Kate Bush for a poultry, like three hours or something.

Yasi Salak (3:30)

That was earlier in the show where we hadn't really spread our wings. We hadn't realized what we were capable.

Robin Hilton (3:36)

Of, the full potential, just how long you could go. Well, this is an episode that I thought honestly, maybe we could have done last fall, late last summer or so, because that's when the band was really starting to blow up. And, you know, their album came out, Getting Killed came out like late September, September 26, and then it just very quickly blew up, it felt like. But honestly, the. The buzz has not stopped. People are not giving up on this band. I. I kind of thought it would have died down by now, but like, you go to Reddit threads and stuff like that, people are still arguing about this band, partly because the Saturday Night Live performance just really wound everybody up all over again.

Ann Powers (4:14)

That's true. I don't think any rock artist compares as far as both acclaim and derision at the same time.

Yasi Salak (4:22)

People are really weird about this band is all I'm gonna say. I feel people are just real weird.

Ann Powers (4:27)

There's a cult vibe that we'll get.

Yasi Salak (4:29)

To in both directions. Right. It's like both ways are lightly off putting. So I kind of understand maybe why that's. The buzz keeps going. Because what does this world love more than anything else? Punitive and unending discourse.

Robin Hilton (4:45)

That should be the tagline for this show. Just punitive unending discourse.

Ann Powers (4:50)

We need art that causes us to foam at the mouth, at each other.

Robin Hilton (4:56)

Well, we're gonna talk about all of this stuff and try to explain where some of this hate is coming from. Where some of the love is coming from. Some of it, I think, is very obvious, and then some of it I think we can go a little deeper on. But I thought we could start with just kind of how we got here, like, chart how the band even got to this moment. Because it's not like they were an overnight success or anything. This is a band that's been around for a decade now, since they were 13. Yeah, I mean, they were. They were kids. They were, like, in middle school.

Ann Powers (5:25)

They were very special kids, though. When I say that, what I mean is that they are a Brooklyn band, a New York band, Children of seasoned New York bohemians. So these kids were destined to. For artistry from, you know, preschool. Their parents are writers and artists. I don't know about all of their parents, but I know Cameron Winter, the singer. His father, I think, is a composer. Isn't that right?

Yasi Salak (5:49)

Yeah. For Sesame Street, I believe. Did sound design for Sesame Street.

Ann Powers (5:52)

Wow.

Robin Hilton (5:53)

And he owns some sort of music company.

Ann Powers (5:56)

Right, right. And his mom's a writer. But I think of Gies as coming more from almost like an incubator than a scene. And what I mean by that is that, to me, they represent a generational shift that we're seeing in rock in a lot of places. But it's not the same as, say, the Meet me in the bathroom era of New York music that Lizzie Goodman wrote about in her book of that name, when it was like, actual artists playing with each other. You know, the yeah yeah Yeahs and LCD sound system and the Strokes all playing together. It's not that this band developed in a very insular way. I mean, they started playing together truly, as kids, you know, as teens, young teens. And then they did professionalize very quickly and started making records, touring. What is this, their fourth album, Robin?

Robin Hilton (6:48)

I think fourth if you count Cameron Winter's solo album.

Ann Powers (6:51)

If you count heavy metal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they've been out there. Like, for example, they opened for King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. They've been out there. But really, to me, this is a very Gen Z thing.

Yasi Salak (7:05)

You know, it's like Turnstile is probably a great comp of the complete opposite of this. Right. Like, comes so much from a scene played in other hardcore bands. Very rooted in a scene of bands that put on shows and festivals and play in DIY spaces and stuff. One of the major indictments of this band is that they don't come from a scene.

Ann Powers (7:27)

It's very.

Yasi Salak (7:27)

It reminds me of like Radiohead, like early Radiohead stuff, which people don't remember. But Radiohead also kind of had a similar trajectory where, like, they played a bunch together as kids, like kind of precociously talented kids, put together a demo and got signed. Geese had a soundcloud and got signed, you know, like, it wasn't from like pounding the pavement or playing with other bands or sort of like forging an identity that way. Like they are gutting a body of water, you know, I'm pulling really random examples, but.

Ann Powers (7:57)

Right, right, right. The immense talent that takes us by surprise actually was nurtured for a long time.

Yasi Salak (8:03)

Yeah, they really kind of like came out of Zeus's skull, if you will, you know, And I think. I think that's part of what makes people so uncomfortable is they don't have context for them. And like, one of the most major things, particularly for rock music, is people want context. They want a story. They want to know the Beatles played in Germany for a year, you know, before they got big. They want to know how you earned it. And I feel like people don't feel that.

Ann Powers (8:30)

I'm really interested in this idea that they sprung from the head of Zeus, because I want to go back to what you were saying about Radiohead and Robin. I know you have some thoughts about Geese in relation to Radiohead too, because we've talked about it in the past. Radiohead also really made a pivot. They had a hit with Creep, but it was only after that with OK Computer, that they became Radiohead as we know them. And I think that's what's interesting about Geese too, is that they have these earlier albums, but this is almost like their re debut or something. It's like complete relaunch.

Robin Hilton (9:06)

I mean, honestly, in some ways there's not a lot about this band that's terribly remarkable. And I don't mean that they're mediocre or that they're not talented or whatever, but just that the trajectory that they were on, at least up until the moment that they blew up, it was pretty typical, you know, they put out a couple of albums. Their first one was projector in 2021. And it's interesting. You listen to it, you can hear the roots of some of the things that they were working toward. But mostly it's pretty standard, sort of indie rock or art rock. Kind of reminded me at times of Alt J, the band Alt J, like on this song called Low Era Modern magazines and holy scriptures My play rehearsals all go one high Love is running a little faster Losing my body with one ancient web. Then 2023, a couple years later, they have 3D country, which was kind of a bonkers record.

Ann Powers (10:08)

Yes, definitely bonkers.

Robin Hilton (10:34)

And you. You listen to them and it's very much just a young band to me, kind of figuring out their sound, what they want to sound like. Then Cameron sh drops heavy metal in 2024, and that's kind of like a holy moly moment for people with him.

Yasi Salak (11:10)

Feeling for a pipe to go down.

Robin Hilton (11:13)

Love will be real.

Yasi Salak (11:18)

I do think, like, I mean, to my ear, the difference between getting killed in 3D country is you can tell it's the same band, but it's quite a leap. It's toothier, right? It doesn't have the edge. 3D country, there's like. There's a real, like, sharpness and like, edginess to getting killed. And also to my ear, I hear it pulled more towards what Cameron was doing on heavy metal. Like, it's almost like perhaps he found his way into this sound and then brought it back to the table for the next Geese album.

Ann Powers (11:52)

I think there's something there. Although I also think the band and their producer, Kenny Beets. Is that the name of the.

Yasi Salak (12:01)

Who I think now goes by Kenny Bloom again.

Ann Powers (12:03)

Okay, Kenny Bloom. You know, it was the dynamic among all of them in the room that really changed when I listened to 3D country. It is a wild record, but there is sort of like this weird ghost of like Americana, you know, I mean, the word country is in there for a reason. They're not in Americana band, but there's like a rootsy, chiggling side to that that is gone. On Getting Killed On Getting Killed, what we have is a. A lot of the songs, a slower pace, a lot of space and a lot of attention. And both the drive of the drummer, we have to give credit, right?

Yasi Salak (12:41)

Max Bass, an incredible, incredible drummer.

Ann Powers (12:43)

I mean, he really delivers. And I think in the Tiny Desk and Gies Tiny Desk, he just shines like on some of those tracks. And also the guitarist Emily Green really figures out what she's doing on getting.

Robin Hilton (12:55)

Honestly, she's the most interesting person to watch in the band when it comes to performing live. Like, she gives great, great performances and it's so dynamic to watch. But I think Ann, when you're talking about how it's a lot slower, the album Getting Killed, I think it's all about the build. All of the songs have this long, slow build and there's always this rewarding drop or this convergence when all the wild, weird things you've been hearing all suddenly come together. Like when he screams, there's a bomb in my car on Trinidad.

NPR Announcer (13:33)

There's a.

Robin Hilton (14:01)

But that's also part of the reason why, when we think about how did we get here, why this band is the most confounding band on the planet to me is there is nothing about any of this that makes sense to me. I mean, I know why I love it. I like weird, unpredictable stuff. But I don't understand why, like, young people necessarily would latch onto them so hard. Like they have. I mean, they're not a singles band. They're not really built for TikTok or other spaces where you think of young people discovering music. Maybe that's becoming true of everybody, I don't know. But, I mean, like, if I played just about any of their songs for my teenage son or any of his friends, they. They just wouldn't have the patience for it. I mean, if a song has an intro that lasts more than, say, five seconds or something, he's out. And he says his friends are the same way.

Yasi Salak (14:49)

You know, I. Again, 43 years old, absolute old man yelling at the clouds. So take this with a grain of salt.

Robin Hilton (14:58)

Oh, my God, what's with the clouds?

Yasi Salak (15:01)

I'm not a teenager, but I have. I know a couple of teenagers who like this band. And one in particular I'm thinking of. She's a girl. Her last favorite band was Arctic Monkeys. I mean, she's maybe like 18 or 19. And I think. And maybe I just hope that there is just kind of a hunger amongst younger people for a sort of legible rock band to grab onto. Cause, like, in a just world, this would have been Wednesday, you know.

Robin Hilton (15:32)

Well, that's the same. You would use the word legible to describe geese, because I would almost use the exact opposite to describe geese.

Yasi Salak (15:39)

I think so, because I think, you know, they have. I'm talking maybe more contextually than within the music, but, like, it is five, four people. Four distinct people with almost, like, distinct identities. So kids can be like, oh, my favorite is Emily, you know, or like, Cameron is so dreamy. Like, it almost has, like a pop group element to it. And I do think the young people I've talked to, like, I saw Cameron Winter solo back in February of last year. And there was, like, a young girl, she was probably, like, in her early 20s. And she asked how we knew about Cameron Winter. Me and Chris Ryan were there. And she said, did you like geese. And we were like, oh, no, we just found Cameron Winter. And she was like, oh, I came here because I love geese. I love 3D country. So I do think it had more of an impact on young people. And maybe we're not giving them enough credit for what they're able to listen to and how complex music. Because what that music really is is emotionally hitting, you know, it reminds me of, like, Pavement in a way. And young people loved Pavement, you know, like you. You have a visceral reaction to this rock music. It's visceral.

Ann Powers (16:51)

I want to pick up on your word legible, because I think there's a way to think about legible, illegibility, as it were, which we might also call.

Robin Hilton (17:01)

Known knowns and unknown. Known knowns.

Ann Powers (17:03)

Unknowns, exactly. Which we might also call mystery, you know, and becoming open to something that you don't understand at first. I think that that's really what is attractive about geese. I mean, Yasi, you've been saying. And I think you're absolutely right. Like, the songs are very vulnerable. His vocals are very vulnerable in a way, although they're also very staged. So it's both at the same time. There's a lot of paradox in this music. There's a lot of kind of things you can unravel. I think trying to figure out the influences is a fun guessing game. But then there is also just this way it hits you in the heart.

Robin Hilton (17:48)

You know, it's very beautiful. So much of it, I find just absolutely breathtaking. There's some songs on heavy metal. Like, there's a song Love Takes Miles.

Ann Powers (17:58)

Love will come, Love will make you.

Robin Hilton (18:03)

Fit it all in the cold.

Ann Powers (18:09)

Yeah, that's very lovely.

Yasi Salak (18:12)

Goodbye.

Robin Hilton (18:14)

But then I will say, you know, there's a song near the end, maybe it even closes it called Zero Dollars, which is almost. It's kind of hilarious. It is so weird and different from everything. And that's. It's that contrast that I love so much. And you were just kind of talking about that, Anne. You know, I love. I love how he can have something really, really, really beautiful and then sort of subvert it very intentionally with something that's just kind of bonkers.

Ann Powers (18:50)

That's the song where he screams, God is real. God is real. I'm not kidding. God is real over and over again. Which is part of. You know, when I said I had this reaction of laughter, which may have been a discomfort reaction. Yossi, I think I can feel you there. It's just like part of me says, oh, my God, kid, You are really, you know, you are putting your finger out and pushing those buttons. You are just pushing those buttons, you know.

Robin Hilton (19:16)

But I think that this again points to one of the issues that people have, which is, you know, I just don't know how. I never know what to believe. I don't know how much he means everything that he's saying or how ironic he's being or.

Yasi Salak (19:28)

But I think he means it.

Ann Powers (19:30)

Can I float another theory? I just. I gotta float another theory. So King Princess did this amazing cover of the Geese song Au Pais du Cocaine, which. I love that song. I love the Saturday Night Live performance. That might be my favorite Geese song. But King Princess, who is an amazing young queer artist, calls that song a lesbian anthem. Here's where I'm going. Gender is very fluid among many members of Gen Z. And sexuality is very fluid. And I think one thing about this music is that it's about trying to figure out love, romance, sex in a very fluid and sometimes confusing world. I really think that is a thread in this music that maybe nobody's talked about. Here's this guy with this incredibly deep masculine voice singing these totally bereft love songs toward to someone. We don't know anything about the subject of these songs. Maybe it's a woman named Nina sometimes, but there's a lot of names in these songs. We don't know anything about how these are directed. And there's so much instability in his desire, so much instability in his hope. I think that's another major thing along with spirituality. I think the sexuality of this music, it's so destabilized that that is very attractive.

Yasi Salak (20:53)

I do think you also like just to cotton onto that. I do feel like it's libidinal, which I think a lot of. Yes, I do. I agree. Contemporary music for Gen Z is not libidinal. And maybe I'm totally off base. You know, I think that, I mean, rock music, of course, young people love this. Who else is supposed to love this? They are supposed to love this. I'm the woman in the meme that's like, there's a 56 year old woman here that's I'm not supposed to be there. They are supposed to be there.

Ann Powers (21:20)

But that's fascinating. But that's also what's fascinating about Geese because like boomers love geese, jxers love geese.

Robin Hilton (21:28)

I guess what I'm thinking is that they're a band that to me asks a lot of their audience.

Ann Powers (21:34)

They do, Yes. I agree.

Robin Hilton (21:36)

And I don't know, at least the young kids that I see because of my kids and their friends and everything, I don't see them again. The attention span it requires or this is music you need to sit with, you need to hear multiple times. And so when I say they're the most confounding band, to me, I guess what I mean is the Gies phenomenon is confounding. Like they're getting the kind of heat that you would expect from a band that does put out singles and pop up all over TikTok or wherever. And I mean, just for a quick sort of reality check, I was looking at all the different kinds of numbers for this band. I mean, and this is all, this is just anecdotal stuff, but they were. This album getting Killed was number one or within the top five on a lot of lists, including Rolling Stones paced, you know, my personal lists. But apart from being on those lists, zero Grammy nominations, zero songs on the Billboard Hot 100. They've got a few hundred thousand followers on Spotify, which isn't bad. But I mean, that's on par with, you know, a lot of the smaller indie bands that we love. And it's just, I think they're just, they're getting the kind of attention that I usually think of with much bigger bands. And that's partly the thing that's so baffling to me, just, you know, how much they've captured.

Yasi Salak (22:51)

Is it baffling to you because who is the audience? People who work in media. It's all of the people that work.

Ann Powers (22:57)

Exactly. I mean, yes.

Robin Hilton (22:59)

Is it just us?

Yasi Salak (23:00)

It's an echo chamber. Exactly. It's an echo chamber.

Ann Powers (23:02)

It's classic critics favorite.

NPR Announcer (23:07)

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Robin Hilton (23:55)

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Yasi Salak (24:25)

This is a great segue into why people hate them because, okay, I have working on the theory. I'd love to hear what you guys think about it.

Robin Hilton (24:32)

Let's do it.

Yasi Salak (24:33)

As you know, I'm deeply obsessed with the monoculture and think we should bring it back. But as we don't have it anymore, what I think is happening now is the algorithm has replaced the monoculture. So we each have our own personal monoculture, but it feels the same as the regular monoculture because it is pummeling you with whatever it is. And if you are a person who likes guitar, rock music, or you've ever checked Pitchfork, or you're interested in contemporary criticism or music or whatever, you are gonna have Geese shoved down your throat left, right and center because of what we just said. Because people in the media love it and the people who talk about music love it. And so people who maybe never had a chance to come across this band in any sort of organic way are all of a sudden have like 60,000 tweets or whatever about whether this band sucks or not, or that this is the band is the second coming of Christ to save rock and roll. And I would be like, I'm good, thank you as well, if I hadn't have found it on my own before that. I completely understand that reaction because I'm a bit of a hater too, babe. I'm a total hater. If it's popular, it can't be good. I'm a child of the 90s.

Ann Powers (25:40)

Well, this is totally. I am a. I guess I'm an adult of the 90s. And that was a lot of my reaction to Geese too. Like the H for me for a while.

Robin Hilton (25:49)

Well, we've already kind of been bringing up some of these, but I want to talk about the most common complaints that I hear about this band. I made a list of what I see as the top five complaints that people have about this band, and we can go through this list and we can address each one and talk about whether or not they're a feature or a bug or maybe both. I would say, number one, Number one complaint. Cameron Winter can't sing. I've went through all kinds of social media posts and Reddit threads and things. Here are Some of my favorite quotes that I pulled from them. Unlistenable. He drones over everything. Another one is he sounds like Jim Morrison gave Chewbacca singing lessons. My personal favorite, he sounds like Fozzie Bear being puppeted by Jeff Mangum.

Yasi Salak (26:35)

That sounds awesome.

Robin Hilton (26:38)

I want to hear that band.

Yasi Salak (26:39)

Yeah. I'm like, that would make me want to listen.

Ann Powers (26:42)

I mean, it's obvious that he can sing. I mean, he can project. He's on tune. I mean, he's not Taylor Swift. People said Taylor Swift couldn't sing for, I don't know, half a dozen years until he pushes the notes really hard. He pushes that drone in his voice. You know, it's the way he structures his melodies. And I think, again, we're returning to Yossi your great insight about how uncomfortable this makes us feel. It's just when he holds a note for as long as he holds those notes, it feels uncomfortable. I mean, I feel like he's just.

Yasi Salak (27:18)

Like in the lineage of many other men who, quote, unquote, can't sing. Right. Like the classic Lou Reed, Bob Dylan. We were just.

Ann Powers (27:26)

Yeah. Actually, the people he reminds me the most of are Bill Callahan, AKA Smog. So much like Bill Callahan. And Will Oldham is another one. Bonnie Prince Billy. And again, you know, these are crooners, David Byrne, who have kind of conventionally good voices who are in rock and roll, doing something in rock and roll that doesn't feel right in rock and roll. And I think that's one reason people feel like Cameron Winter can't sing. You know what I mean?

Robin Hilton (27:55)

I mean, I would say the exact opposite. Not only can he sing, he has an incredible range and diverse range of what he can do with his voice. And you listen across those records like Projector, he kind of sounds like the Strokes, but then you listen to, like, 3D country, and it's like this weird alternate universe take on Motown.

Yasi Salak (28:18)

Well, there's a lot of Randy Newman in there, too.

Ann Powers (28:20)

Oh, that's an interesting.

Robin Hilton (28:21)

I can hear that.

Ann Powers (28:21)

I mean, we could think Captain Beefheart, Don Van Vliet. There's so many different test shows. I've heard people compare him to Rufus Wainwright, you know, who, of course, is an operatic singer. Aspirationally operatic singer. But that's interesting. You know, Robin, listening to those early records, I think what happened is Winter shed a lot of his affect that led toward one identification or another. In other words, at a certain point, he could sound kind of soulful or he could sound a little bit country. On Getting Killed, that's all kind of erased. You Know what I mean?

Robin Hilton (28:57)

I mean, if you listen to his interviews, I think he sounds like I would expect him to sound. I mean, it sounds real to me. And I think all of these complaints we're gonna go through, I think at the heart of all of them, or the root of them, what people are really all wound up about is the idea of authenticity. So when they listen to him on these records, especially getting killed, they think he's faking it. That this is just some funny, weird.

Yasi Salak (29:26)

Affected voice as a fellow person, of being called annoying voice. Authenticity. Cameron Winter. I'm with you. I stand with you. Leave us alone.

Ann Powers (29:38)

But at the same time, I think that's what made me laugh, though, when I was first listening to him, because I also did feel like. And I never feel like this about you, Yossi. I did feel like he was pulling the wool over my eyes or he was trying, and I didn't like that. You know, I didn't like the idea that he was putting on this voice. It doesn't. It's not a natural feeling voice. Whatever you say, whatever, however much we love it, it doesn't feel natural.

Yasi Salak (30:01)

It's like Stephen Malchimus to me, though, also. It's like when you first hear Stephen Malchus sing or talk, like, it sounds affected, and then you realize, but that's just who that person is.

Ann Powers (30:10)

Or as I mentioned, Will Oldham, same thing, right?

Robin Hilton (30:14)

All of this requires us to make a lot of assumptions of what his intent is when he does any of this, sings or writes these songs or anything. And I guess the. My feeling when I listen to it is that this is real, that this is. This is what. This is just what this dude sounds like. You listen to the early, early records and you hear him trying to find his voice, and he found it here. Now, that's not. You know, maybe it'll be totally different on the next record.

Ann Powers (30:39)

Still a choice. He found his voice, but it's a choice, okay?

Robin Hilton (30:42)

It is a choice.

Yasi Salak (30:43)

There's something to be said about who has to be authentic and who doesn't, right? Like, it's like, I just. I think it's funny. It's a genre thing, right? It's like, oh, rock. This rock music, it has to be from the streets. They had to, you know, do this. Everything has to be real. And then I'm like, do you guys remember David Bowie?

Ann Powers (30:59)

I don't.

Yasi Salak (30:59)

Just like, what is this? What are we talking about here?

Robin Hilton (31:02)

But there have been similar complaints about artists across different genres. And I think of, like, Lana Del Rey. I've thought of her a lot when listening to Geese and when I watched the SNL performance because, you know, she was just completely eviscerated for her SNL performance. And the complaints were, oh, she's mumbling her way through this. It's totally flat. She's fake. She's assumed this whole Persona for this performance, and people, like, totally took her down for that. And if you go on the discussion threads and everything, you hear what people are saying, it's very similar for the Gies performance on Saturday Night Live. Again, because people think that it's inauthentic.

Ann Powers (31:38)

I find that baffling. I mean, I find it baffling about Gies SNL performance. I thought it was a completely standard rock band performance. I think we've forgotten what that's about.

Robin Hilton (31:49)

They could have led with Trinidad. They led with the sleepiest cut. They could. They could have maybe flipped that a little.

Yasi Salak (31:56)

I love that. That's my favorite song on the record. That's the one that jumped out to me.

Ann Powers (32:00)

That's when Trinidad is like, for the.

Yasi Salak (32:02)

Less the banger. Yeah, the. Trinidad is the banger because it's the heaviest and they're screaming and it's like, finally something for the men, you know, or whatever. But, like, that is. That's not what the rest of the album necessarily sounds like. So I think it's very cool that they played all pod duck cooking. I can't pronounce that.

Robin Hilton (32:20)

It pays to cook.

Yasi Salak (32:21)

Sure.

Robin Hilton (32:22)

All right, let's get to complaint number two. Complaint number two. The lyrics are nonsensical gibberish.

Yasi Salak (32:28)

I will fight a person who said that.

Robin Hilton (32:31)

Okay, I just want to talk.

Yasi Salak (32:33)

Where do you live?

Robin Hilton (32:34)

All right, well, I'll start with my wife, who when I played them. Okay, well, she said. She said, is he even singing words? And she's like, but, yeah, you go on any of the Reddit threads and people are like, what is he caterwauling about? What is he even saying?

Yasi Salak (32:52)

You don't think I will break my own heart from now on Is a God tier lyric. You don't think you can change and still choose me? Is a God tier lyric. I hear you show me someone else writing lyrics on this level.

Robin Hilton (33:07)

You know, I think people are focusing more Yossi on lines like, yeah, I'm taking off my pants. I'm getting out of this gumball machine metaphor.

Ann Powers (33:15)

But, you know, I mean, I agree and disagree again. I think there's some destabilization going on here or the theme of our discussion. Right? Like, he has beautiful, poignant Lyrics. He has nonsensical lyrics and they're juxtaposed against each other. And again, that makes people uncomfortable. It's not one or the other, it's both.

Yasi Salak (33:34)

But I think it's like you said, a feature, not a bug. I just interviewed Barry Johnson from Joyce Manor, a wonderful band, a, about this exact thing where it's like. It would be so overwrought and heavy handed if every lyric was, you can change and still choose me having those sorts of not. It's the same as his voice, right? Where there is like such a, like ragged vulnerability, but also a winking and smirking. It's the balance that kind of makes what is special about the sound of this band.

Robin Hilton (34:03)

Yeah, it's sort of like I bring this example up all the time on this show when we talk lyrics. But like wilco, you take a lyric like, I'm an American aquarium drinker, I assassin down the avenue. Like, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But then he ends it with, I'm hiding out in the big city, blinking, what was I thinking when I let go of you? Like, you can hold on to that. And then the weirdness that he frames it with, it just invites all this deep consideration. So you take a line like on the title cut of getting killed when he says, yeah, I'm taking off my pants, I'm getting out of this gumball machine. But he follows that with saying, I'm getting killed by a pretty good life, right? Which is now that now you've got me and I'm going to sit with this for a while.

Yasi Salak (34:45)

I have multiple pavement lyrics tattooed on me, babes. And maybe I'm not the correct audience for this. I'm like, you know, I saw your girlfriend and she was eating her fingers like they're just another meal.

Ann Powers (34:53)

And I'm like, I mean, surrealism has been a huge influence on songwriters since, you know, I don't know, Paul McCartney. Onward we could go. We go through the whole history of rock and talk about this. And people like to compare him, Cameron Winter, to Bob Dylan. Dylan definitely has some zingers in there too, and some lines that you're just like, what are you talking about?

Robin Hilton (35:15)

Yeah, I mean, I think he's kind of a brilliant lyricist, actually.

Ann Powers (35:19)

He's also 22, right? Or 23 or whatever he is now. So let's see where he goes.

Robin Hilton (35:26)

All right, complaint number three. They're ripping off every rock band that came before them. This is a topic we can go very, very long on because there are so many examples. I'm going to just start listing some. And you stop me if it's one you've thought of or if you want to weigh in here. Bowie. I think Bowie's pretty obvious. That's like a little glamorous.

Ann Powers (35:45)

I would argue with that, but we'll take that offline.

Robin Hilton (35:48)

Okay. Epic.

Yasi Salak (35:49)

All right.

Robin Hilton (35:50)

Animal Collective.

Ann Powers (35:51)

Yeah, Makes sense.

Yasi Salak (35:52)

Okay.

Robin Hilton (35:53)

All right, how about this one? Dave Matthews.

Yasi Salak (35:56)

Okay. I was going to bring up David Matthews earlier. Thank God that you did it because people. There she goes talking about David Matthews again. Polarizing voice.

Ann Powers (36:04)

Yeah, for sure. Oh, my gosh. Such a polarizing voice. People thought he was a Muppet.

Robin Hilton (36:08)

Yeah. I guess I was thinking it was more the sort of the jam band aspect.

Yasi Salak (36:13)

Jam band, jam band and jazz. People forget that the members of the Dave Matthews Band are classically jazz trained musicians. And Cameron Winters talked a lot about the influence of jazz.

Ann Powers (36:23)

Yeah. I think several of the members of Gies were actually admitted to schools like Berkeley and turned it down so they could go on to become what they are today.

Yasi Salak (36:32)

If we're trying to get people to like this band, I don't know if we've helped with the Dave Matthew's band. Maz. I live and die for David Matthew.

Robin Hilton (36:38)

All right. Rolling Stones.

Ann Powers (36:40)

I think that's because he has a song called the Rolling Stones. That's kind of.

Robin Hilton (36:43)

No, I think you listen to the chug of islands of men that kind of chugs along. I. I thought Rolling St. Smash mouth.

Ann Powers (37:05)

Okay, you got this one. You got to explain. I need to have a good to hear.

Robin Hilton (37:09)

If you listen to this comes courtesy Otis Hart on the Impure Music Team. If you listen to about a minute and a half into the song Taxes. Somebody once told me the world's gonna roll me.

Yasi Salak (37:29)

It's a stretch, but it's not the.

Robin Hilton (37:31)

Chorus of All Star. It's the opening to All Star. I hear it, but that's the thing. I will hear 10 different references in a single song.

Ann Powers (37:41)

Yeah, I think that's happening for sure. Yes, that is totally happening. I have a whole playlist, by the way, that I've made that I will share with people. Called this reminds me of Geese. So I have more I could throw in the mix. I mean, our favorite, PJ Harvey. I definitely think a song like 50 Foot Queenie connects with what Geese is doing.

Robin Hilton (38:00)

What else is on that playlist, Daniel?

Ann Powers (38:01)

A lot of people have talked about Captain Beefheart. I think the art rock side of things. And also Don Van Vliet's very unusual voice. The Pixies Pretty obvious choice. Nick Cave, obviously. Nick Cave and the Bad Seas. And then I'll just say an unexpected one. And this is a shout out to the rhythm section. I think some dub reggae artists, like all the whole on youn Sounds catalog.

Robin Hilton (38:28)

I think Talking Heads is the most obvious reference point for me. I think it's obvious to me in his voice. He sounds very David Bernie to me. It's adventurous in the same way.

Ann Powers (38:37)

I hear that. But I have to say, I think Talking Heads rarely, if ever, got so loose and spacious. I think Talking Heads was like a dance band in some fundamental way, even at the beginning. But I hear you on the kind of. Especially the early. So maybe Fear of Music era. Talking Heads.

Yasi Salak (38:54)

Well, because it's like, what other band could we talk about that sounds like Dave Matthews and the Talking Heads? Do you know what I'm saying?

Robin Hilton (38:59)

Again, it's a feature, not a bug.

Yasi Salak (39:00)

It's like, I feel like this is a funhouse mirror. Because you could name any band on earth and probably find some. Like, I was explaining to a friend, like, I see geese as. Like, when you see the caveman going all the way to the upright man, you know, thing where I'm like, that was rock music, and it's coming and now it's here. Like, Cameron Winter put up. I don't know if it still exists, but he had put up some playlist of influences. And it was like Nina Simone. And I was like, yeah, it's just music.

Ann Powers (39:30)

That's what kind of irritated me, though. He's claiming all the greats, and that's fine. I mean, I agree with you. I think that's one of the most fun things about this band is the name, the Inspiration Game. And I noticed that when people were reviewing Getting Killed, often critics would say, I don't really know what this is inspired by. Like, somehow the band. And I'm gonna say the whole band, not just Cameron Winter. Cause we haven't been talking about the whole band enough.

Yasi Salak (40:00)

That's true.

Ann Powers (40:01)

They throw enough into the mix that it gets, you know, confused.

Yasi Salak (40:05)

Well, yeah. If you're 23 years old, you have everything that's ever been made at your fingertips to take in and put through your own ability to play at that level. Like, all of these musicians, each one of them is such an accomplished musician for their age that they kind of. I think that's what comes out the other side is that they're so good that they can take all these inputs and make something incredible on the other side.

Robin Hilton (40:31)

I'm with you. Yossi, I think I don't hear them ripping off these bands. I hear what naturally happens when you're young artists making music now and you can hear anything by anybody that's ever been done in the history of making music, and you're just a sponge and absorbing it.

Yasi Salak (40:46)

And all bands are like this. I'm sorry. Like you could. I can hear 3:11 in turnstile. That's not bad. That's good. You know, like, it's not Greta Van Fleet, where you're like, oh, incredible cosplay.

Robin Hilton (40:56)

You know, Whatever happened to Greta Van Fleet? Wow.

Ann Powers (40:58)

You're right. I mean, like, when you're young and hungry. Yeah. You're, like, reaching for whatever seems right.

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Robin Hilton (41:37)

Okay, complaint number four. They're privileged nepo babies.

Ann Powers (41:42)

They are nepo babies, but not in the usual sense. In my opinion, they are bohemian Nepo babies. These kids grew up in New York City. I don't know about all of their parents, but definitely Cameron Winter's parents were in the culture industries, in the arts.

Yasi Salak (41:59)

Emily Green's dad played with John Caleb.

Ann Powers (42:01)

That's right. Emily Green's dad also played with my friend David Driver, who, interestingly, also played in a band with Andy Booze, who is Somber's father. So. Wow.

Robin Hilton (42:12)

Yeah.

Yasi Salak (42:13)

It's all one thing. It's a psyop.

Ann Powers (42:15)

It is.

Yasi Salak (42:16)

I'm back on. It's all a psyop. It's all a psyop.

Ann Powers (42:19)

Somberg collab now. Sombergies collab now. I demand it.

Robin Hilton (42:24)

So a couple comments I pulled from online. One, here's one. They're insanely privileged. Another one. I'm glad the youth of today have their own New York trust fund indie rock band to rally behind. I mean, and I mean, out of all of the complaints, this one and maybe number five that we're going to get to just drives me absolutely nuts. I get it. If they're like no talent people whatever who, like, you know, get everything, even though they. They don't do any of the work or don't have any of the talent, but they're doing the work and They've got the talent, maybe they're privileged and they're lucky to be able to make the music that they've been making. But the whole idea of, of you coming from people who are also talented or successful, therefore you don't deserve anything, is complete nonsense. To me, that's like saying, well, I guess, you know, I'm never gonna watch Spinal Tap or When Harry Met Sally or any other Rob Reiner movie, because Rob Reiner was a Nepo baby.

Yasi Salak (43:23)

I mean, this is. This is like the oldest complaint on earth, right? This is blur. This is like, will never be free of this complaint. And that's fine. I think it's an important one for people to have, you know, like, let them have it. It doesn't really change anything. It's always gonna be like, oh, those are privileged art school kids, or those are the Strokes or those, you know, and that's okay.

Ann Powers (43:47)

Like, I mean, it's the Rolling Stones, you know, art school kids, whatever. Bowie, you know, I mean. But I'll stick with my point, which is that the music is what it is in part because from childhood on, they were. I mean, Rob Reiner actually RIP you know, Rob Reiner's a great example because it was actually such a plus. I mean, the fact that Carl Reiner was his father, right. It's like, that is. That's why he was so great. He came from that. You know, I mean, I think people are express.

Yasi Salak (44:20)

They're expressing frustration at their own, understandably. Like, you know, like, I would love that if I had.

Ann Powers (44:26)

Yeah, yeah.

Yasi Salak (44:27)

I would love it if I had bohemian parents that encouraged me to play music from a young age. But I do think it's worth making the distinction that they didn't become. They didn't take their place within the world of music because any of their parents had any pull that didn't happen, you know, and that's the difference between being a Nepo baby and having a nurturing, artistic. And, you know, maybe. I'm pretty sure they live. I thought I heard Cameron Winter still lives at home. So, I mean, they're 23 years old.

Ann Powers (44:54)

Yeah. No, he has a great line in one of his interviews. I'm not afraid of living with my parents.

Robin Hilton (44:59)

He's a stay at home son. Yeah, I just. I guess I listen to these sorts of complaints and then I think, well, why wouldn't this be the field that they kind of find themselves going into, if that's what you grew up with? And why wouldn't you naturally have some talent in this field if that's what you grew up with.

Yasi Salak (45:17)

If Cameron Winter was a woman, this would be so much louder. And they would be, absolutely. This is an industry plant. These people are fake. Someone put them here.

Ann Powers (45:24)

I mean, that's. I'm sure that's true.

Robin Hilton (45:26)

All right, complaint number five, and we've already talked a little bit about this, but the complaint is they're overhyped and hype kills. Couple comments I pulled. I keep hearing about them, but have managed to never hear them. At this point, I'm intentionally avoiding them just to see how long it takes. Here's another one. I'm avoiding them on purpose. Now. I've never heard their music, and somehow I'm still sick of them.

Yasi Salak (45:49)

I can't knock it. I mean, listen, when the most annoying person you know is posting videos from the Geese show and you've not heard them, you might be a little bit.

Ann Powers (45:59)

Like, you know, what Interesting correlation to Moby Grape, who I keep mentioning. But, you know, when Moby Grape was like the most hyped band in the San Francisco scene at a certain point, and their label, I think it was Columbia, released five singles at once, and that wrecked the band. That, along with Skip Spence, their leaders, he struggled from mental illness. That also didn't help. But, I mean, if. If Hype's going to hurt anybody, it's going to be the band themselves. You know what I mean? Ultimately, that's a problem that they. That will affect them more, that will affect you or me. You know, I mean, whatever. We can always turn it off.

Yasi Salak (46:38)

I mean, I think it's back, just back to my thing about the algorithm. Like, you don't have to listen to. No one's forcing you. You don't have to listen to Geese, you don't have to listen to Bandsplain. You don't have to listen to npr. You don't have to do anything. It's free country and just get off your phone and then you can feel free and beautiful.

Robin Hilton (46:53)

Well, forgetting for a moment that so much of this, I think, is just rooted in deep cynicism. And I just think that robs people of so much joy.

Ann Powers (47:02)

Okay, but I gotta say one thing, though, before we put anything aside, because I do think one thing is bogus. I'm sorry. When Cameron Winner performed at Carnegie hall and he performed with his Back to the Crowd, and Paul Thomas Anderson and Benny Safdie were filming that at the same time, that was a bridge too far for me.

Robin Hilton (47:22)

Which part? The fact that they were filming or.

Ann Powers (47:24)

That he was playing the whole thing? It was just like, well, he always.

Yasi Salak (47:27)

Performs with his back. He did that in February when I saw them before any of this hype had happened.

Ann Powers (47:33)

That's just how about it?

Yasi Salak (47:36)

I thought it was kind of charming. I don't know. Again, I like this spin. So. And also this is all pre the hype. So I just went in being like, this is giving Charlie Brown Christmas in such a funny and adorable way.

Robin Hilton (47:48)

And.

Yasi Salak (47:49)

And he's just so awkward and just hunched over this piano and made zero small talk.

Ann Powers (47:53)

But he's also an objectively good looking guy. He looks like a rock star. So I don't get the Charlie Brown. He's not, you know, he's not to.

Robin Hilton (48:01)

Maybe. Maybe we should be pitching the tiny desk to people as an opportunity to see him from straight on.

Ann Powers (48:07)

But you know what?

Robin Hilton (48:07)

For the entire performance. Because he sits there.

Ann Powers (48:09)

It's so interesting though, because he sits there but he never looks like his eyes are anywhere. Like he does not connect, you know, And I found that. So maybe he just really doesn't. Maybe it's genuine. Not in an affect.

Yasi Salak (48:23)

I think the Lana comparison is actually a good one because I think what Time has shown us about Lana, who has, you know, I'm a major Stan. That's who she is. Like that. There's nothing actually more authentic than what she is presenting. And I think it's. I think time will show the same about Geese and about Cameron Winter as a frontman. Like, that's just how I feel about it. Ultimately it doesn't matter.

Ann Powers (48:45)

No, that's absolutely true. You know, but the thing about Hype, and even though I have a knee jerk reaction to Hype, I just can't help it. It's because I was a very unpopular child. I mean, I genuinely like react to Hype the way I reacted to not being invited to people's birthday parties. It makes me feel bad. But in fact, hype is generated by other people. It's not generated by the band. So should we blame them?

Robin Hilton (49:09)

Well, this is interesting, Ann, because I think there's something going on with all of this Hype stuff and how polarizing it's made people over this band where it's a kind of inverted fomo.

Ann Powers (49:24)

Yeah.

Robin Hilton (49:25)

Where like what's really happening is people need to feel normal. It's a basic human need. People like to feel normal. And when something they don't like becomes a thing and blows up, whether it's a rock band from Brooklyn or Masks during the pandemic or whatever polarizing thing you can think of, if enough people Embrace it. Then everyone who hates it feels like they're the outlier, and people hate that feeling. They're even threatened by it.

Ann Powers (49:55)

You know, there was. Sorry, yeah.

Robin Hilton (49:58)

No. So they end up pushing back harder, I think, than they otherwise would.

Ann Powers (50:02)

There was a great issue of the literary magazine Granta that was published after Princess Diana died, and it was just interviews with English people who didn't care that she had died and, like, how alienated they felt because the entire country was, like, so in the depths of mourning around this death. And it just proves your point, Robyn. Like, if you don't feel like you're part of this wave that everyone else is part of. Yeah, it's the worst feeling in the world, I think. And maybe in our very divided times, too, we want to be welcomed into something. If you think about what I think Geese is the antidote to, which is kind of the arc of poptimism, of loving really popular things like Beyonce and Taylor Swift and the Marvel Universe. If Geese is sort of the antidote to that, it is a turn away from the idea that a form of cultural expression, whether it's a band or a movie or whatever, should welcome all of us, and a turn toward the idea that art should be a little bit exclusive. It should be a little bit difficult. And that's going to cause some people a little bit of tourists. It's going to make people feel nervous.

Yasi Salak (51:23)

It's also just so funny to me, this is not a pejorative, but the fact that this band is what's causing this commotion and controversy because, like, ultimately, they're very milquetoast, you know, like, and not in a bad way. But I'm like, you were just some love. Some talented kids who play music. They're not, you know, this isn't Screwdriver, you know, like, we are not.

Robin Hilton (51:46)

I mean, that's why I say it's.

Yasi Salak (51:47)

Apologies to the NPR audience. Don't Google Screwdriver.

Robin Hilton (51:51)

But that's what I mean. It's, like, why I say that. There's not really that much that's terribly remarkable about him. I love him. I. I think it's great, but I can't believe this.

Yasi Salak (52:00)

Okay, if you don't. It's so okay if you don't like his voice, that's fine if the music's not for you. Totally. That's a valid opinion. And I have no interest in arguing or.

Ann Powers (52:09)

Don't get Wednesday. Just go to Wednesday instead.

Yasi Salak (52:12)

Yeah, that's. We love Wednesday. We're pro Wednesday, contingent on this podcast. Yeah, but I Think, Robin, you're exactly right. I think people feel, especially because it's not a pop artist, like, it's very easy to tune out some very popular artists and just be like, I'm alt, right? That's none of my business. Of course. I don't like that. But then when, like, other people that like the same kind of things you do, like, are lionizing this band and you're like, oh, I'm just, like, not that into it. You're.

Ann Powers (52:39)

You.

Yasi Salak (52:40)

You're not even able to be just indifferent to it. You kind of have to.

Robin Hilton (52:43)

And it's all the hyperbole about them, too, driving it. When people say they're saving rock, Rock music and rock bands, they're like Moses.

Ann Powers (52:50)

Coming down the mountain, you know, that's pretty heavy hyperbole.

Yasi Salak (52:54)

I just. I hope it. What I hope it does is open the door for more rock bands and show that there is, like, a hunger and appetite amongst literally every generation at this moment for good guitar rock music, because it's been sidelined for so long. And I. Not that rock music needs a savior.

Robin Hilton (53:13)

But I guess the question we've arrived at with all of this is, you know, and one of the reasons why we wanted to have this conversation in the first place is just like, are they here to stay? Are they a flash in the pan, or are we going to be talking about this band in 10 years or longer?

Yasi Salak (53:33)

I think they have the talent and the creativity to continue to evolve and make really cool music. They could also be like, this sucks. Everyone's being really mean. I had a mental breakdown. I hope not. You know, anything could happen, but I don't. They're 23 years old. I think a lot more is coming from them.

Ann Powers (53:52)

I mean, I do think the fact that Cameron Winter had so much success with his solo album at the same time that the band really broke puts him at a crossroads. You know, he's gonna have to make some decisions, but from the evidence seems to indicate that the band is very strong as a unit. So I don't know about 10 years. But I will say I'm looking forward to their next album and I'm looking forward to, you know, how they grow.

Robin Hilton (54:21)

I look for a genuine, again, authentic sort of sense of curiosity. And how much curiosity gas do they have in the tank? And I feel like they've got a lot in the. The tank left. And if they can hold on to that, I think, you know, they're also, you know, this band is very inventive and inventive bands. I think tend to have long shelf lives because they're always sort of reimagining things.

Yasi Salak (54:46)

He just heard the Beatles two years ago. Wait till he's killing Joke. Like, who knows what's going to be in front of us? Wait till, you know, like, he hears the germs. Like, I don't know, like, there's a lot more going to come into the inspiration tank.

Robin Hilton (55:00)

Where I draw the line is the idea that they're saving rock and that, like, rock bands are back, baby. Rock bands have never gone away. Wetleg Wednesday, Annie Derusso, 100 gecks turnstile so many, so many great rock bands. The thing that hasn't dominated the charts or anything for a long time is like stadium rock.

Yasi Salak (55:22)

Maybe Dave Grohl will bring Gizzard King.

Ann Powers (55:25)

Gizzard plays big arenas, you know, so they've already played big stages. I think they could do it.

Robin Hilton (55:32)

Well, I think we did it. I think we've solved every problem.

Yasi Salak (55:37)

We solved it. I hope they really enjoyed the part where you just listed why everyone hates them for about an hour. I hope no one ever does a podcast like that about me.

Robin Hilton (55:49)

No, we defended every single one of.

Ann Powers (55:51)

Those we love you geese. All right.

Robin Hilton (55:55)

I want to thank Otis Hart, as always, who does way too many things to contain in a single title. Also, NPR music editor Jacob Ganz. Soraya Muhammad is the executive producer for NPR Music. And our fearless leader is Sonali Mehta. Hand Powers, Yossi Salak, thanks so much.

Ann Powers (56:11)

This was so fun.

Yasi Salak (56:12)

Thank you, Robin. This was so fun.

Robin Hilton (56:14)

I'm Robin Hilton. It's all songs Considered.

Ann Powers (56:20)

Dance away forever Baby, let me dance away.

Yasi Salak (56:31)

Forever and ever.

Ann Powers (56:33)

Yeah, baby, let me dance away. Let me dance away forever, baby, you should.

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Robin Hilton (57:18)

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