← All the Buried Women
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- [00:00]
Beth Allison Barr
We want to make sure that you, the listener, have a trigger warning for this episode as it does talk about sex abuse. Because of the serious nature of this episode, we've chosen to place the ad from our sponsor at the beginning rather than the middle. That way, once we enter the story, we can stay in it without interruption. Here's a quick advertisement from our sponsor.
- [00:23]
Savannah Locke
Brazos Press how did the role of the Pastor's Wife come to be in Becoming the Pastor's How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry? Beth Allison Barr takes you on a journey revealing little known stories of women throughout church history. Drawing from her 25 years of personal experience as a pastor's wife and her expertise as a historian, Barr explores how the role of the pastor's wife has evolved and grown over time. She uncovers the surprising history of women's ordination and how its decline intersects with the rise of the pastor's wife. Through personal antidotes and historical analysis, Barr helps the church understand the origins and implications of this unique role. Pete Enns, host of the Bible for Normal People, endorsed the book, calling it an amazing book that exposes the grays disenfranchisement of women to the Gospel ministry and sets the record straight for all to see.
- [01:25]
Beth Allison Barr
Published by Brazos Press, you can order Becoming the Pastor's Wife now wherever books, ebooks or audiobooks are sold. As a thanks for listening to the podcast, we've got a promo code for you. Use the code PODCAST40 to get 40% off of becoming the pastor's wife. This is valid once the book releases until April 30th. You can check out our show Notes for more information.
- [01:49]
Savannah Locke
Right now in the Southern Baptist Convention's archives there is a cardboard box labeled 13 7. In that box there is a little white folder with the handwritten title Sex Clergy Sexual Abuse. Inside there is a scanned copy of a 1993 article from Baptist Press covering a lawsuit in Baltimore which accused the SBC and others for negligence in hiring, retention and supervision of a music minister named James Reed.
- [02:25]
Beth Allison Barr
James Reed was convicted of child abuse and the molestation of three brothers in his church, North Point Baptist, and was serving an 18 month prison sentence as a result. The plaintiff family, whose names remained anonymous, had been members of North Point for 13 years and said their sons were the ones Reid abused on multiple occasions, both on church property and in his home. They alleged that despite knowing Reed was convicted of a sex offense 20 years prior and that he was accused of abuse at a nearby church, Northpoint Baptist still hired him and should be held responsible. The suit also named North Pointe's pastor, Dwight Evans, the Baltimore Baptist association, the Baptist Convention of Maryland and Delaware, and the sbc.
- [03:12]
Savannah Locke
When James P. Gunther, attorney for the sbc, was asked for comment, he said the SBC has been named a defendant in this case on the erroneous theory that the minister of music was the employee of the SBC or that the SBC had the power to supervise the minister of music. Of course, the SBC has no right in regard to a church's decisions to employ its ministerial staff, to retain those the church has employed, or to supervise or discipline or in any way regulate the church staff.
- [03:49]
Beth Allison Barr
The only evidence we could find for this case is from one newspaper clipping in the archives. It is true that the SBC could not directly fire James Reed without the participation of Northpoint Baptist. However, as we've seen in other instances, including the 2023 convention, which we'll talk about in a later episode, the SBC does have the power to disfellowship churches. And as we saw with Kathy Hoppe, entities like the Home Mission Board within the SBC also can pull funding when there are reasons for concern.
- [04:24]
Savannah Locke
Gunther's statement underscores a consistent pattern in the SBC's defense strategy for sexual abuse allegations, distancing itself from direct accountability by emphasizing its lack of authority over individual churches, otherwise known as local church autonomy.
- [04:45]
Beth Allison Barr
This hands off stance was, how can we put this? Conveniently inconsistent. As we've seen, the SBC was happy to exert influence when it drafted in power, passed resolutions which regulated church staff by restricting women's roles in affiliate churches. But when it came to regulating church staff accused of sexual abuse, the SBC was less inclined to claim authority at all. For many people like abuse survivor and advocate Krista Brown, this defense is inexcusable, a calculated abdication of responsibility that prioritizes institutional self preservation over the safety and dignity of abuse survivors.
- [05:27]
Krista Brown
I began trying to get the Southern Baptist Convention to do something long, long ago. I talked with Southern Baptist leaders, talked with state convention leaders, sent certified letters to 18 Southern Baptist leaders in four different states. Those light letters are in their archives somewhere, right? And not a one of those men did a thing which in my mind speaks to, you know, this notion that the men are going to be our protectors. No, what they are protecting is their own crony network and their own system of unaccountable power. But it has nothing to do with protecting women. And to the contrary, we are the fall guys on whom all blame is put.
- [06:19]
Savannah Locke
Krista Brown knows firsthand what it means to be the SBC's fall guy, a trailblazing advocate whose impact is felt within and beyond the Southern Baptist Convention. She was one of the first Baptist abuse survivors to directly address the SBC's executive committee in Nashville. For over two decades, she has tirelessly championed reform, inspiring countless others with her unwavering commitment to justice. To many survivors, Christa is a beacon of light, courageously speaking truth to power. To many in the SBC's leadership, however, she is an unrelenting thorn in their side, one that will not go away.
- [07:03]
Krista Brown
I told my pastor, listen, it would.
- [07:05]
Savannah Locke
Be easier to be a prostitute in this church than it is to be an ordained woman. The spirit of the Lord is upon.
- [07:14]
Krista Brown
Him because God has anointed me to.
- [07:17]
Savannah Locke
Preach good news to the poor.
- [07:19]
Meredith Stone
Women deserve to know that there are places where their gifts and their ministry is valued.
- [07:24]
Savannah Locke
I looked at him and said, Dr. Guy, you have every right to be completely wrong.
- [07:30]
Beth Allison Barr
Created in partnership with the Bible for normal people, this is all the Buried Women, a mini series uncovering women's stories hidden in the Southern Baptist Convention's archives.
- [07:41]
Savannah Locke
Hosted by me, Beth Allison Barr, and me, Savannah Locke. Episode 4 People who have Consensual Affairs Don't End up with PTSD I grew.
- [07:57]
Krista Brown
Up in Farmers Branch, Texas, which is a northern suburb of Dallas.
- [08:01]
Beth Allison Barr
Here is Krista describing her upbringing at First Baptist Church of Farmers Branch.
- [08:06]
Krista Brown
And back then, of course, it was kind of a smaller, more independent community. You know, we had three Southern Baptist churches and a Methodist church and a Church of Christ. I mean, I could still picture all those church on their street corners, right? And that was about it. And, and, and the church really was my whole life, right? It was everything that was, that was the circle I was in, the air I breathed.
- [08:33]
Beth Allison Barr
Christa was a quintessential Southern Baptist girl. She sang in the church choir, actively participated in her youth group, and achieved the prestigious title of Queen Regent in Service, the highest rank in the girls Auxiliary program. This accolade wasn't easily earned. Starting as early as fourth grade, girls achieved higher ranks in the auxiliary program through scripture memorization, mission projects, and cooking traditional dishes from countries where SBC missionaries served. Girls started with the title of Maiden, moved to lady in Waiting, then Princess, and eventually Queen. Once a queen, they could work towards Queen in Service, Queen with scepter, Queen Regent, and finally Queen Regent in Service. For Queen Regent in Service, Krista Brown, Faith was not an afterthought. It was the reason she existed.
- [09:29]
Krista Brown
I was a girl who wanted always and only to know God's will and do God's will. That was it. That was my whole essence of being. So if the pastor says, I'm chosen, chosen by God for this purpose, yeah, I believed it.
- [09:50]
Savannah Locke
As a teenager, Christa spent lots of time with her youth group and her youth pastor, Tommy Gilmore. He would often drive her and other church kids around town in his 66 Mustang. They played games like flag football and Twister together, and with time, she grew to trust him. When her home life began to unravel, Gilmore was quick to offer a listening ear. He suggested they meet weekly to talk, scheduling their conversations between Christa's piano lessons and choir practice at church. He told her to keep their meetings a secret, though, warning that her parents would probably be upset if they knew she was talking about them. It was common for him to drive Krista and other students home after youth events, but she began to notice that he made a point of dropping her off. Last, Gilmore drove her around in the dark and talked about all the big things he was going to do for God. Sometimes he would read the Song of Solomon to her and point out that she, too, had dove's eyes and a neck like a tower of ivory. She blushed. He kept driving.
- [10:58]
Beth Allison Barr
One night, after all the other students were safe at home, Gilmore pulled over on a dark road and asked Krista a question. Do you know what obsession means? He explained the word and said that he was obsessed with the idea of kissing her. Gilmore was married and in his late 20s. Christa was on the cusp of 16. Here's her description of what happens next, taken from her book. This Little light. What I remember is how much I wish that I didn't have my Lionette uniform on. My legs were so white they practically glowed in the dark, and my thighs suddenly seemed enormous. I tugged at the short skirt, but it didn't do any good. On top of that, my hair was stringy and sweaty. I was drenched. That's how it is with Texas football at the start of the season. There's so much sweat flinging around on the field that the grass gets watered on without any rain. I just kept sitting there, feeling my sweat and looking down at my legs. Finally, he asked me directly, will you let me kiss you? No. But I didn't want to hurt his feelings, so I tried to soften it. You're like an uncle to me. Or maybe a big brother. I just don't understand. Silly goose. That's what he called me sometimes. I can see you aren't ready. Go home and pray about it. We'll talk again.
- [12:36]
Savannah Locke
According to Brown, Gilmore continued to ask for a kiss every time they were in the car together. She said no again and again, but eventually he wore her down. She thought if he got one kiss, that would be the end of it. So in the dark of night outside an airport in Addison, Texas, youth pastor Tommy Gilmore kissed teenage Krista Brown. He kissed up and down her neck and licked her face and eyes and mouth. She froze as he whispered in her ear, it's all right. Nothing's happening. There's nothing happening here. Over the next few months, Gilmore would sexually assault Krista more than 30 times with increasing severity. Once in the car while other youth group kids slept in the backseat, sometimes in their church, sometimes at his house. When Christa was compliant, Gilmore would celebrate her obedience and say how much God loved her. He said God created her to be his helpmate. He mentioned how many men in the Bible had multiple wives. But if she asked questions, he would point to the Bible for his defense.
- [13:43]
Krista Brown
Nowadays I look back and I think, how could I have been so stupid as to have believed all these things he said, all these terrible twistings of Bible verses. But it wasn't a matter of stupidity. It was a matter of faith. I was a girl of faith. Lean not to thine own understanding. It was not my place to try to understand. My place was to be obedient and submissive and to obey them that have the rule over you, for they watch over your souls. And if you raise like me, believing in a very literal hellfire as an end possibility, then that admonition, for they watch over your souls obey or else. That weighs pretty heavy if you're thinking about burning forever, for all eternity in a literal hellfire. So this stuff weighed very, very heavily. I became compliant. I mean, even the story of Mary was weaponized against me because, I mean, I. I did as a kid, I tried to understand, right? So I was balky sometimes, as teenagers are want to be, and I certainly was. But he said, you know, Krista, where would we all be if Mary hadn't trusted in what God wanted of her life, even when she could not understand, you know, and in my kind of adolescent faith addled brain, that made a certain sense. I wanted to be like Mary. And so I did become compliant with this. And it went on and on and on for months.
- [15:34]
Beth Allison Barr
Eventually, Christa couldn't stay silent anymore. She confided in her piano teacher, who was also the music minister at her church, about her relationship with Tommy Gilmore.
- [15:45]
Krista Brown
So I told him I Told him what had been happening. He knew. People in the church knew from way back. They always knew. There were always people who knew. They never. No one ever doubted me because they knew. They simply didn't care. But one of the things the music minister told me at the time, which now, in hindsight, I find kind of fascinating, he said, well, his wife is pregnant, so their marriage is probably suffering, and that's probably why all this happened. And that was his way of excusing it. And I think, well, it's also a way. Not that I'm any fan of that pastor's wife, but it is also a way of putting some blame onto her, as though she were somehow not meeting her marital obligations.
- [16:30]
Savannah Locke
This music minister asked Christa if she had told anyone else about their affair, besides one friend. She hadn't told anyone. He told her to keep it that way, not to tell anyone else, and instead leave it in God's hands. Not long after this conversation with the music minister, Tommy Gilmore would be transferred to a different church, but not before he and his wife got an apology.
- [16:58]
Krista Brown
Toward the end, he became much more mean, much more hostile, much more angry. So finally then, after this point, when he was finally going to be moving on to a new church, because I had broken down and told the music minister, I think at that point, because I had totally broken down, they realized they weren't going to be able to control me, so they wanted him to move on. And then it was at that point that I was made to kneel while he stood over me praying to cast Satan from me. And then after that, was made to apologize to his wife in the very office where many things had happened. And there I am at that point, 16 years old. She was probably 26 or 27. She was pregnant with her second child. And I as a kid just literally blubbered and begged for her to forgive me. I said it was all my fault. Those words came from my own mouth. I believed it when I said it. By that point, I believed, Believed it. She was very stony faced, and all she said was, I'll pray for you, and that was it. But, yeah, I mean, I do see that she was a victim in some ways, too, but I also see that she was an adult woman and I can't imagine how she could look at me as a girl. And it's very hard for me to muster compassion there.
- [18:56]
Beth Allison Barr
After Christa was made to kneel down before her abuser and his wife and apologize for seducing him, and after he prayed to cast Satan out of her Tommy Gilmore would go on to pastor at bigger and better churches. He worked at the prestigious First Baptist of Atlanta under Charles Stanley. Then he moved to Florida and worked for a pastor who served as the president of the Florida Baptist Convention. Christa, on the other hand, was told she harbored Satan and had the Jezebel spirit. Labeled a seductress. She was held responsible for their affair. We reached out two times to Tommy Gilmore for comment about the stories we shared, but did not hear back.
- [19:38]
Savannah Locke
Clergy sexual abuse inflicts unfathomable damage on the lives of its victims. Yet all too often, survivors like Christa are forced to carry the weight of this trauma while their abusers prosper without consequence. To better understand the severe effects of clergy sexual abuse and the barriers survivors face, we spoke with David Pooler, a leading expert in this field. His research sheds light on the profound challenges survivors like Krista have to face, often without the support or justice they deserve.
- [20:16]
David Pooler
I'm David Pooler and I'm professor of Social work in the Diana R. Garland School of Social Work at Baylor University.
- [20:23]
Savannah Locke
In 2015, David conducted a national survey of adult survivors of clergy sexual abuse. 283 survivors from 42 different states participated in the study. In order to participate, respondents had to be 16 years or older at the time of the abuse and at least 18 at the time of the survey. Before we get into the details of a study, we asked David to define clergy sex abuse.
- [20:52]
David Pooler
Clergy sex abuse is literally whenever you have a church leader with influence and power who misuses that influence and power to coerce and manipulate and control someone to the point, and they blur and break down any boundaries that are present to then get sexual access to them. In the cases that I'm most familiar with, we are talking about overt sexual activity that has happened. And in my study, 95% of the perpetrators were married men and about 65% of the victims were married women. There's no question that adult clergy sex abuse is a very gendered phenomenon. It is generally about heterosexual men in power having enormous amount of control and the ability to coerce and manipulate people under their care.
- [21:51]
Beth Allison Barr
What happened to Krista Brown would be considered clergy sexual abuse. Tommy Gilmour misused his power as a youth pastor to manipulate Christa. He preyed on her vulnerable home life and broke down appropriate boundaries in order to gain sexual access to her. He also misused the Bible, prayer and spiritual language to justify his behavior as good when it was actually abusive. This caused immeasurable harm. Harm that David Pooler's research suggests is equivalent to or more damaging than the multifaceted trauma experienced by combat veterans.
- [22:28]
David Pooler
There's two different manuscripts I'm working on right now on how much ptsd, post traumatic stress disorder there is actually among survivors. And the sample that I have, it's at 39%. And I've done some comparisons to. There's a large study of sexual assault survivors that was done global studied back in 2017. That's at about 20%. I looked specifically at those folks deployed in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the kind of two most recent, and that sits at about 30% for that group. So this particular subset I have not yet found another subset of people with PTSD levels that high.
- [23:16]
Savannah Locke
To reiterate, David's research reveals that clergy sexual abuse survivors experience PTSD at rates higher than those of sexual assault survivors and even individuals who were deployed during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are several potential reasons for this, but one theory David has informed by the work of Dr. Jennifer Fraid is that institutional betrayal makes clergy sexual abuse traumatic at higher rates. Institutional betrayal is when institutions harm those who are dependent on them or fail to respond supportively to wrongdoings within the institution. In David's research, only 7% of survivors said their church had a policy in place to help support them. Only 33% said when they reported the abuse they were believed. Only 9% said the church was helpful when they reported the abuse. And only 15% said their church or denomination thoroughly investigated the report.
- [24:25]
Beth Allison Barr
Take a moment to sit with those numbers. Only 9% of these survivors said that their churches were helpful when they reported clergy sexual abuse, meaning 91% of survivors who reported being sexually abused were not supported by their churches. Only one third of survivors said they were believed, meaning 66% were not believed. These statistics align with Christa's story when she confided in the music minister. It should have marked the end of Tommy Gilmore's alleged abuse. He should have been reported and Christa should have been supported. Instead, she was silenced, told to keep the abuse a secret, and even forced to apologize to her alleged abuser while the institution shielded him from accountability as he continued to be employed at different SBC churches. This is the institutional betrayal that compounds the traumatic effects of clergy sexual abuse.
- [25:26]
David Pooler
When someone has ptsd, and specifically when we're looking at PTSD in this population, it is a betrayal trauma. And what we mean by that is that it's human relationship trauma. Someone that we were close to, depended upon, had high regard for injured us on the deepest level. And so what happens then? Is there's a lot of avoidance, avoidance of thinking about it, avoidance of the place that's a symptom of ptsd. Often PTSD survivors also dissociate. They have a hard time. And by dissociation, really a simple term for that is they just can't be fully present in their body. It feels too yucky. So PTSD happens really when something is too much too soon, you know, overwhelming. Right. It overwhelmed my ability to make sense of it. Now let me add something in. One of the reasons why I do think there's PTSD among this group of people is because in my study, this kind of abuse isn't just a one time thing. It lasted on average four years. So once an abusive pastor is able to be sexual with someone under their care, they maintain access as long as they can. Really what we're looking at, and some of the clinicians listening to this might get it, what we're really actually talking about is complex ptsd, which is a different phenomenon, which has more problems with emotional regulations and maintaining relationships in the aftermath. And I would absolutely say from the folks that I've talked with and had conversation with, most of them have complex ptsd. So it's an injury that disrupts a person's sense of safety, okayness, even their identity. So what we're really saying is when you are abused, sexually assaulted, or abused by a pastor, how you make sense of life is shattered. And that's why I think we're looking at 39% now. Every single survivor reported PTSD symptoms. But the sort of the cluster and the magnitude of them hit the screening level for PTSD at 39%. So almost half of them, as David.
- [27:59]
Savannah Locke
Highlighted, disassociation and avoidance are just a few of the symptoms of ptsd. Others include anxiety, flashbacks, recurring intrusive memories and dreams, social isolation, anger, fear, shame and hypervigilance. PTSD is also frequently linked to depression and suicide. You might be asking yourself, why are we featuring this research? Doesn't everyone in the SBC agree that sexual abuse is wrong? Doesn't everyone think it's real and causes severe damage? In theory, yes. But in practice, the SBC has failed to address clergy sexual abuse with the seriousness it demands. No meaningful reforms have been made to protect women, children and men from sexual abuse in their churches. And because the SBC operates as a self regulated body, there's no external accountability forcing change. This lack of regulation is, in David's opinion, a major problem.
- [29:00]
David Pooler
The only stopgap measure we have right now is to criminalize this Behavior. And there are 13 states, plus the District of Columbia. Texas actually is included in the list where it is actually a crime to be sexual with someone in your care. If you're a pastor, it is a crime, just like it would be for a social worker. So that's the other interesting thing. Along with regulation, there's also a law. So absence any regulation in any religious institution, all we have are laws. And that's where we need to go. Now let me just say this. We have separation of church and state, which means that generally the state doesn't want to touch the church with a 10 foot pole. And so I don't see the state ever regulating the church, at least not in my lifetime. But then where's the incentive? Where do churches step up and do the right thing? I don't know. I mean that. So it's hard for people to really imagine this because we think of churches as ordered and sort of controlled and managed well, but it's the, if you will, it's the wild west. Let me just put this in another context. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and sexual contact between me and a client is prohibited precisely because that would be so difficult for a client to manage. Like I'm gonna have a sexual relationship with this person who has power and influence. Like there's no way to ensure that that wasn't coerced. That's why sexual behavior is prohibited. And if that were to be reported, I have a licensing board here in Texas and there are some other professional organizations that would regulate me and would either watch me or remove my license or both for a time. I mean, I would be sanctioned. I would not just go on practicing as usual and return to my position as usual. And if I were to apply for licensure in another state, they're going to get my record of licensure, for example, where I was practicing. And if there's a sanction against my license or someone reported a misconduct, I just simply say that. All helping professions get that with the exception of ministry.
- [31:34]
Beth Allison Barr
We've seen this pattern over and over again, even in this short series. It's Paige Patterson's mentee, Daryl Gilliard going to jail for child molestation just to be put back in the pulpit for adult only services when he got out. It's conservative resurgence mastermind Paul Pressler allegedly abusing young boys and men for decades without being held accountable for his actions. It's Paige Patterson allegedly covering up Paul's crimes. It's Tommy Gilmore getting a tearful apology from teenage Krista Brown on her knees for allegedly seducing him into a, quote, affair in the very office where he abused her. It's the relentless pattern of these men being welcomed back into the fold no matter their actions, while their victims are cast out, labeled as jezebels and temptresses, often wrongly portrayed as equal participants in so called affairs.
- [32:28]
Savannah Locke
Speaking of, it's important to note how the SBC and other denominations have used a fair language to dismiss clergy sexual abuse as a mutual rendezvous, especially when the victims are adults. This faulty framing implies that adult women and men cannot possibly be abused by an adult pastor and that when two adults are involved, it is just an affair. We are not implying that mutual affairs never happen, just that affair language often distorts the reality of the power dynamics involved in clergy sexual abuse. David Pooler had a short but profound insight on this we'd like to share.
- [33:10]
David Pooler
This just isn't a consensual affair. People who have consensual affairs don't end up with ptsd. So we are talking deep and profound abiding injuries that absolutely disrupt people's functioning.
- [33:27]
Savannah Locke
The distinction he makes here is vital. People who have consensual affairs do not experience the kind of trauma that leads to ptsd. This underscores the critical difference between consensual relationships and clergy sex abuse. The misuse of affair language in cases of abuse is not just dismissive, it's a harmful distortion that protects abusers and re traumatizes victims. It's tactics like this which allow the SBC to scapegoat victims and ignore the abuse happening in their churches. Christa Brown knows this all too well. As a teenager, she was blamed for causing an affair with Tommy Gilmore. Clergy sex abuse wasn't in their vocabulary. But when her own daughter reached the same age she had been during the abuse, Christa saw with heartbreaking clarity just how young and vulnerable she truly was and how her experience was not an affair, but abuse. That realization compelled her to act.
- [34:26]
Krista Brown
I saw how much kids were at risk with no one doing anything. And in the beginning, of course, I really, really believed that, well, if only I explain all this to them, if only I tell them this, if only I show them this. These are good people. They will surely they're older, they're wiser now, they've raised children of their own, they'll surely want to do something. And of course I was dreadfully, dreadfully wrong about that. The churches first response was to threaten to sue me. Just a preemptive strike, just all off and threaten to seek Legal recourse against me, which sort of set me back on my heels for a while. But things went downhill from there. You know, you think these things aren't going to affect you, but they do. And I was pretty much overwhelmed, I would say, with the level of hate and vitriol that was sent my way, much of it from some of the highest leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention. So when you have high leaders who will say these things publicly, you know, call me an evildoer, publicly use the Baptist press to say I was making false accusations, they've got their own press arm, right? I'm kind of just this little person, you know, publicly call me a person of no integrity. I went in person to speak with them in person, and that whole attitude manifested in the physical there with me speaking to a subcommittee of the executive committee, because there I am before them, trying to get them to do something, telling them about the childhood rapes that I experienced by a pastor. By that time, I had heard from many, many, many other Southern Baptist abuse survivors. I knew that this was widespread. I'm talking about something terribly painful. One man literally gets up and turns around and sits backwards in his chair. So as not so as you put his back to me, another man in the room just loudly chortled out loud as I'm talking. And of course these things are bad enough. But I think what really struck me at the time was that no one else in that room, these are all men who are some of the highest leaders in the largest non Catholic faith group in the country. Not a one of them spoke up. Not a one, not a ones said, whoa, you know, we aren't going to behave this way. Whoa, you know we're going to maintain civility here. Not a one, not a one.
- [37:16]
Beth Allison Barr
When Krista met face to face with leaders in the sbc, she hoped they would listen to her story and make positive changes to protect children, women and men in their denomination. Instead, they ignored her, chastised her, and hid behind local church autonomy, using it as an excuse for why they couldn't regulate or intervene. When Christa says she was berated by members of the SBC for speaking out, she's not exaggerating. For example, Augie Bodo, who is general counsel and vice president of the executive committee, said the focus on sexual abuse in the SBC was a satanic scheme. He named Christa Brown as one of the architects of this scheme, saying, this whole thing should be seen for what it is. It is a satanic scheme to completely distract us from evangelism. It is not the gospel. It is not even part of the gospel. It is a misdirection play. He went on to say that Christa and other advocates have succumbed to an availability heuristic because of their victimizations, meaning she was being self serving. Others in the executive committee said Christa and some other survivors are critics that lack integrity and will not be satisfied no matter what Southern Baptists do. She has been on the receiving end of thousands of emails and social media posts questioning her motivations and character when, at least from our view, she is advocating for very common sense changes.
- [38:45]
Savannah Locke
One reform she advocated for was a database which would list all credibly accused or convicted pastors and leaders within the sbc. This would allow for a Southern Baptist church in Florida, for example, to know if a potential youth pastor from Texas had been credibly accused or convicted of sexual crime. But the SBC refused to do this because Get Ready for would infringe upon local church autonomy. But Christa said this would allow autonomous churches to make better informed decisions. If a church knew a potential youth pastor was a convicted sex offender, they would have the opportunity to not hire him because the SBC wouldn't do it. Christa started her own public database for churches to reference, complete with links to articles outlining the abuses each leader allegedly committed. At least now, she thought churches would have better access to this important information and make better choices to protect their congregations. As far as she knew, nobody else was doing this work, certainly not the sbc. They had told her it was simply not possible. But years later, she would learn the truth. The SBC had been building a database all along, a list of over 700 names spanning 205 pages, documenting credibly accused or convicted abusers who were pastors or church personnel. But unlike Christa's database, the SBC kept their list private. It was so private that most people on staff had no idea it existed.
- [40:18]
Beth Allison Barr
The only reason it was brought to light was because they had to turn it over to Guidepost Solutions, an independent firm the SBC hired to investigate the Executive Committee's handling of sexual abuse from 2000 to 2021. The executive committee is just one subset of the SBC made up of about 20 staff members and an 86 member board. They decided to hire Guideposts in direct response to the the public's growing scrutiny of the SBC's sexual abuse problem, scrutiny that gained momentum during the MeToo movement and more specifically the Church to movement. In 2019, the dam broke when reporters Lease Olson, Don Tedesco and Robert Downing. Yes. Robert Downing, who we interviewed in episode two, broke a bombshell story through the Houston Chronicle with a database they'd been working on for six months, listing key church officials and volunteers convicted of sex abuse crimes in the SBC. In their research, they found 380 Southern Baptist Church leaders and volunteers who faced allegations of sexual misconduct, leaving behind more than 700 victims. This news story went viral and suddenly all eyes were on the SBC. They had to do something.
- [41:33]
Savannah Locke
For the next seven months, Guide Post Solutions would investigate the SBC's executive committee and draft a 288 page report about their handling of sexual abuse. Krista Brown has read every word during our interview. She reached for her copy, pulling it from a bookshelf behind her. It was well worn, brimming with dozens of color coded tabs, highlighted passages and handwritten notes. So we asked her, what did you think of the report? What was your impression? She was quick to jump in.
- [42:05]
Krista Brown
It's a scathing report which basically shows that for decades it confirmed and validated everything I had been saying for years. That for decades their priority, singular priority, was protecting the institution against potential liability risks, even if that meant leaving reported clergy child molesters in the pulpit. The priority was protecting the institution. And it documents numerous instances of how horribly they treated survivors who made efforts to report their perpetrators. My Name appears some 70 times in this document precisely because they did treat me so terribly. This was 2022 when the report came out. It got massive media both nationally and internationally. I talked with reporters all over the planet about the Guidepost Report. You know, there was a little wave of hope there. And I think that wave of hope is kind of normal because people think, how can people know about this terrible thing and not do something? How can a multi billion dollar institution the size of a mid tier Fortune 500 company. They've got the resources they could if they wanted to. How can they not choose to effectively address this when it is put in black and white in front of them? But that is where we're at. That is exactly what happened. They have not addressed it.
- [43:51]
Savannah Locke
At the end of the Guidepost Report, several recommendations were presented to help the SBC and its executive committee better prevent sexual abuse and support survivors. These include implementing comprehensive background checks, prohibiting the use of NDAs in sexual abuse cases, and establishing an independent commission to oversee and enforce reforms. Additional suggestions include creating a permanent entity to serve as a resource for prevention and response efforts, adopting a self certification program for churches to promote awareness and enhance prevention, establishing an ethical code of conduct and allocating sufficient funding to ensure these reforms are effectively implemented. We asked Krista to share her perspective on the SBC's response. What did they do with these recommendations?
- [44:44]
Krista Brown
They put up these study groups, committees, two different task forces by two different names, none of which have accomplished much of anything. There has been little things, you know, trotted out that they tried out for public relations purposes, in my opinion. At one point, they made a huge hoopla about were launching a database. Oh. And they talked about people weeping, but thought this would never happen. And. And it got a lot of press, but there was not a single name on that database. It was nothing more than a skeleton website that some teenager could have put together. There was no launch. And I say this, and yet, if there's anything I have seen over the course of these 20 years that they have gotten better at it is that they've gotten better at public relations. They really, truly have. They. They can pitch, you know, the notion of progress in the face of backward steps, but they've gotten good at that. So that's the Guidepost Report. It still sits there. And now we have seen in more recent days, you know, there are some within the Southern Baptist Convention that try to discredit the Guidepost Report. There are some in high places who are going back now and trying to discredit the work that the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express News did with the Abuse of Faith series. Major, major newspapers, you know, they had. They vetted everything they published through their legal departments, reporters, professional journalists, and now there are those in the Southern Baptist Convention who are saying that all of that was a fraud. And so they aren't moving forward with addressing what they're doing, is still trying to squash it all.
- [46:45]
Beth Allison Barr
If you search Guidepost Report on any social media platform, you'll encounter a wide range of opinions. As Krista pointed out, it's true that many within the SBC are working to discredit the report. Some argue that many of the individuals listed in the private database either no longer have ties to the SBC or weren't affiliated with the denomination at the time of the alleged abuse. Others claim that Guidepost Solutions lacks credibility, citing the firm's public support for LGBTQ rights as evidence of an ideological bias. Some contend that the issue has been exaggerated altogether, accusing Guidepost and the media of using a handful of abuse allegations to unfairly portray the SBC as having a systemic problem. We asked almost everyone we interviewed about this. Do you think the issue of sexual abuse in the SBC is being exaggerated? Do you think sexual Abuse survivors are trying to throw the SBC under the bus for their own clout or gain. We want to end this episode by playing some of their responses, giving the last word to Krista Brown. Let's start with David Pooler, whose research is helping us understand the impacts of clergy sexual abuse.
- [47:58]
David Pooler
The cost there, in my experience with listening to survivors, I could literally cry right now. Is profound, multi layered injury coming at them from multiple directions. And I even had an item in my survey because I had been anecdotally hearing this in conversations with Diana Garland and I, and it just basically said the response from the church is worse than the abuse itself. And I, you know, put it on a Likert scale from strongly disagree to all the way up to strongly agree. And I'm, I wish I knew I remember the exact statistic right now, but I want to say about 50% agreed or strongly agree that that was the case. So we're already seeing that they could, you know, 10 years ago, prior to a decade of awakening around this, people were already saying that the response from the church deeply injured me and was actually worse than what happened. So, you know, social support, belonging, meaning connection, friendships are all fractured and disrupted when someone makes a decision to report. So, yeah, I would absolutely push back against anyone who says a survivor is just making a big deal of this or looking for attention. I've never seen it, not once.
- [49:28]
Savannah Locke
Here's journalist Robert Downen's response, in which he discusses how practically difficult it is to even report sexual abuse in Southern Baptist churches in the first place. Case.
- [49:38]
F
So, one, someone would have to come forward, which is extraordinarily rare. We know from research that most people do not come forward about their sexual abuses until they're after they're 50 years old. Two, these people would have to come forward in a place often SBC churches are located in small parts of the country where the pastor you may be accusing of abuse, the, the sheriff and mayor and the entire political apparatus may be sitting in the very pulpits of that person's church. So you are not just accusing some random person in town of abuse. You are accusing someone who is ostensibly has almost as much power and political sway in that community as anybody else. Three, the person to whom this person reported would have to have reported it to police, which again, very rare for police would have had to follow through with the investigation, which is extraordinarily rare. I believe less than. I don't have the exact stats, but an infinitesimally small number of cases of sex abuse reports are actually followed through on by police, let alone end in any kind of conviction. So all of, all of the odds just to get to there are extremely long. And then on top of that, the person who, if there was a conviction, some sort of local news agency would have had to find the conviction, been willing to report on it, make the connection between the church and the conviction, and still have a website that was active in 2019 for us to find, which is extraordinarily rare given that something like two thirds of all rural newspapers over the last 20 years have been closed. So like, if you think about all of the steps that a case would have to, to go through just to land on our radar and we were still able to find 400 with a team of three that only spent a few months looking, I, I think I get very frustrated when I hear people talk about trying to compare the SBC numbers based on what we were able to find and compare them to the Catholic Church or really anybody who is trying to diminish these findings. Because once you understand the dynamics of, of abuse and the dynamics of what got to those numbers, the 400 number should be almost paralyzingly terrifying. Because if we were able to find that many, think about how many aren't out there. And I can tell you that in the wake of our reporting, the number of people that just in the first few weeks reached out to us was proof of that. You know, hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of people coming forward and saying this happened to me and I thought I was alone or I had never told anybody until now and the statute of limitations is to is is gone. So nothing will ever happen. But I just needed someone to know. I mean, it is a full blown crisis and anybody who is trying to argue otherwise has no idea what they're talking about or does know what they're talking about and has a vested interest in, in portraying it as.
- [52:36]
Beth Allison Barr
So here's a response from Rosalie Back, the first female professor of religion at Baylor.
- [52:41]
Savannah Locke
It's all about image.
- [52:43]
Krista Brown
It's got nothing to do with truth.
- [52:45]
Savannah Locke
And I think that the Guidepost, what.
- [52:48]
Krista Brown
I've read of it, is damning, absolutely damning.
- [52:52]
Savannah Locke
It affirms the lack of worth that.
- [52:55]
Krista Brown
The leadership place on the women in the denomination.
- [52:58]
Savannah Locke
Here's Meredith Stone, executive director for Baptist Women in Ministry between the years of.
- [53:05]
Meredith Stone
2016, when the MeToo movement started in 2022, when the guide post report came out detailing the horrific actions of Southern Baptist leaders to not only commit sexual misconduct, but cover it up. I think what was happening in those years is that in order for people to take sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual misconduct seriously, you have to acknowledge the full humanity of women. And as soon as you acknowledge the full humanity of women, that opens up the door that women might think they actually can do things and have leadership and maybe even be able to serve in leadership roles. And so I think what happened in 23 and 24 was backlash to that move where women might be starting to think that they have equal value. And so we have to make sure that women know their place.
- [54:02]
Beth Allison Barr
Here's Barry Hinkin, Baptist historian who spoke to the dismissal of sexual abuse in the SBC as a kind of conspiracy theory.
- [54:09]
G
Historians are roundly unimpressed is too weak of a word at such sort of conspiracy theories. I mean, it's a form of a conspiracy theory. And the best evidence for conspiracy theories is that there's no evidence for them, you know, and historians know that real conspiracies are found and they're written about and they become part of the historical record because you find evidence that people really were conspiring conspiracy theories when there's no evidence, you know. So on that score, I would think even if you were going to try to refute a handful of the 700 documented cases, you know, that would be remarkable if you could refute a handful of them, you know, and the methodology that the Chronicle and San Antonio Express News used is very impressive. I mean, they were using public records, they had documented case after case after case, you know, and it ended up being 700 that they were able to document or over a 20 year period. So how you're going to refute all that, you know, with something is just, it's beyond the pill. And I don't see any way that it could be refuted by a few people out here saying these were ginned up.
- [55:33]
Savannah Locke
And last here is Krista Brown.
- [55:37]
Krista Brown
There's never been anything to gain for me individually, personally in any of this. To the contrary, it's taken an enormous toll. I mean, I can talk about all the hate and the backlash and. But it's one thing to talk about it in the abstract and it is another to go through stretches where every day you're opening up your emails to name calling and threats. It, this stuff does take a toll. But the idea that, that this is all overblown or that anybody gets anything out of this, most survivors just want to try desperately to get on with their lives. And yet this, this thing hovers. This is not a matter of hating the church or wanting to harm the, the church, but for me. This has always been about people. How can we help people, ordinary individual people. And if the church is continuing to harm people, which it is, then, yeah, that's a church, I think needs to be called to account. And I'm using church in the broader sense there. I just wish people could. I think people want to believe that these are just isolated cases, but it is not. It is. These are not, you know, just a few bad apples. These are. This is a whole huge barrel that enables and facilitates the rotation and this kind of widespread abuse and cover ups. I mean, this does not happen without the active complicity of many thousands of others.
- [57:54]
Beth Allison Barr
In our final episode, we're going to talk about a woman whose story was buried in the archives and has never been told publicly until now. Join us next week as we piece together her life, reflect on her courage, and explore how her voice echoes today like a haunting canary in the Southern Baptist Convention's coal mine. All the Buried Women is hosted and written by Beth Allison Barr and Savannah Locke. It was edited by Savannah Locke and the music was done by Todd Locke. The song you hear in the intro and outro is called Jaded by, you guessed it, Savannah Locke. And for more detailed credits, be sure to check out the show notes. We're so thankful to everyone who worked behind the scenes to make this possible. We reached out to the sbc, Paige Patterson, Darrell Gilliard, Tommy Gilmore, and the Council for National Policy for comment and did not hear.