Podcast Summary: "Coming Back To Life" – All There Is with Anderson Cooper

Release Date: April 25, 2025
Host: Anderson Cooper
Guests: Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University; Heinz Pagels, Elaine’s husband

Introduction

In the poignant episode titled "Coming Back To Life," host Anderson Cooper delves deep into the multifaceted journey of grief and healing. Cooper engages in an intimate and heartfelt conversation with Elaine Pagels and her husband, Heinz Pagels, both of whom have endured profound personal losses. This episode is part of Season 3 of All There Is with Anderson Cooper, which focuses on exploring grief in all its complexities through personal stories and expert insights.

Personal Stories of Loss

Mark Pagels' Illness and Passing

Elaine Pagels opens up about the tragic loss of her six-and-a-half-year-old son, Mark, who was born with a congenital heart defect known as pulmonary hypertension. Despite successful surgery at a young age, Mark's condition remained incurable, leading to his untimely death.

Heinz Pagels’ Grief Journey

Heinz Pagels shares his harrowing experience following Mark’s diagnosis and subsequent passing. Initially, Heinz struggled to accept the reality of their son's condition, expressing feelings of helplessness and a desperate desire to escape his pain:

"I kind of go crazy. I remember leaving the hospital and just wanting to walk out in the street and have a car hit me. I didn't want to die. I just thought, I can't deal with this at all."
— Heinz Pagels (00:26 - 00:39)

Heinz recounts a pivotal moment when a bereavement specialist introduced him to the concept of mourning, providing a framework to understand and navigate his grief.

The Loss of Heinz Pagels

Tragically, about a year after Mark's death, Heinz himself passed away during a hiking trip. Heinz describes the moments leading up to his death, where he felt a profound connection with his son even as he collapsed:

"I felt that he heard us and that he was going back into his body... I could see, like a little trace of silver up on the ceiling and a feeling that that was him departing."
— Heinz Pagels (07:55 - 08:56)

Insights on Grief and Healing

Redefining the End of Life

Elaine Pagels shares insights from Father Patrick Mary Briscoe, a priest who emphasized that death is not the end but a transformation, echoing Pope Francis's sentiments:

"The death of someone you love is not the end of everything. It can be the beginning of something new with the person you've lost."
— Father Patrick Mary Briscoe (02:24 - 02:44)

The Gospel of Thomas and Connectedness

Heinz Pagels discusses his academic work on the Gospel of Thomas, highlighting themes of interconnectedness and the natural process of suffering:

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
— Heinz Pagels (12:32 - 13:27)

He relates this to personal healing, emphasizing the importance of expressing and acknowledging grief rather than suppressing it.

Shame and Anger in Grief

The conversation touches on the societal and personal challenges of expressing grief, particularly anger. Heinz reflects on the biblical portrayal of divine anger and its implications for human expressions of grief:

"In the Bible, the Lord gets angry very often... it's all right to feel sad... but you can't get angry. It's only the Lord who has the right to get angry."
— Heinz Pagels (20:27 - 21:09)

Key Discussions and Reflections

1. The Importance of Acknowledging Grief:

   • Heinz emphasizes that suppressing grief only leads to greater suffering, advocating for gradual and open expression as essential for healing.

2. Interconnectedness and Support:

   • Both guests highlight how shared experiences of loss can foster deep connections and mutual understanding among those who grieve.

3. Personal Transformation:

   • The episode underscores that while grief is an intense and often devastating experience, it can also lead to personal growth and a renewed appreciation for life.

4. Cultural and Religious Perspectives:

   • Elaine and Heinz explore how different religious texts and beliefs can influence one’s understanding and processing of grief, offering both comfort and challenges.

Notable Quotes

• Heinz Pagels on Mourning:

  "They say, you have to go to this nurse at Baby's Hospital... she was the one in charge of parents with dying children. And they said, there's a name for what you're going through. It's called mourning."
  (04:22 - 04:39)

• Anderson Cooper on Shared Grief:

  "It's extraordinary to me that anybody you pass on the street has experienced this or will experience this."
  (25:58 - 26:02)

• Heinz Pagels on Gratitude and Moving Forward:

  "I finally realized that I could be happy again. That was a surprise."
  (29:36 - 30:21)

Conclusions and Takeaways

"Coming Back To Life" offers a profound exploration of grief, emphasizing that while loss can feel isolating, sharing and expressing grief can pave the way for healing and personal growth. Anderson Cooper, along with Elaine and Heinz Pagels, illustrates that coming to terms with loss involves navigating complex emotions, redefining beliefs about life and death, and finding support through community and personal connections.

The episode serves as a compassionate reminder that grief is a universal experience, and while each person's journey is unique, the collective sharing of such stories can foster understanding, support, and resilience.

Further Resources

Listeners are encouraged to visit the All There Is online grief community at cnn.com/allthereisonline for additional support and resources.

Recommended Reading:

• Why Religion? A Personal Story by Elaine Pagels
• Miracles and the Historical Mystery of Jesus by Elaine Pagels

Produced by: Grace Walker and Dan Bloom
Senior Producer: Hailey Thomas
Technical Director: Dan Dizzoula
Executive Producer: Steve Lichtai
Special Thanks: Wendy Brundage