Mama Shu: Turning Loss Into Love

Summary

All There Is with Anderson Cooper

Episode: Mama Shu: Turning Loss Into Love

Release Date: January 24, 2024

In this poignant episode of All There Is with Anderson Cooper, host Anderson Cooper delves deep into the heart-wrenching journey of Shamayim Mamashu Harris, affectionately known as Mama Shu. Through candid conversations, Mama Shu shares her profound experiences of grief, loss, and her inspiring transformation of pain into a beacon of hope for her community.

---

1. Shamayim Mamashu Harris' Heartbreaking Loss

[00:31]
Mama Shu begins by recounting the devastating moments following the tragic loss of her two sons, Jacoby and Chinyelu.

Mama Shu: "It's like I was trapped, suspended in this obliterating sadness and swallowed me."

• Jacoby's Death: At just two years, one month, and six days old, Jacoby was fatally struck by a car while crossing the street with his ten-year-old brother, Chenyelu. The incident left Mama Shu in a state of paralysis, grappling with the immediate aftermath and the unrelenting grief that followed.

• Chinyelu's Murder: In 2021, Chinyelu, aged 23, was brutally murdered while serving as security in Avalon Village. The loss profoundly impacted Mama Shu, deepening her resolve to create meaningful change.

---

2. Transforming Grief into Community Empowerment

[08:45]
Driven by her immense grief, Mama Shu embarked on a mission to rejuvenate a neglected block in Highland Park, Detroit, transforming it into Avalon Village.

Mama Shu: "I wanted to recreate that [beautiful neighborhood from her childhood]."

• Avalon Village: Over eight years, Mama Shu acquired 45 lots, constructing six structures and preserving the remaining land for community use. This included the creation of Jacoby Ra Park, a serene space honoring her late son, and the Homework House, a hub offering educational support, meals, and essential resources to children in need.

• Community Initiatives: The village features solar streetlights with Wi-Fi capabilities, music studios, art classes, and support groups for children who have lost family members. These facilities aim to provide a safe, nurturing environment for the community's youth.

---

3. Coping with Grief through Faith and Rituals

[17:02]
As a minister since 2001, Mama Shu integrates her faith into her healing process, fostering a spiritual connection with her deceased sons.

Anderson Cooper: "I still honor them. Whenever we have ceremonies or we have parties or we have something, we want everybody to be there, all the family members."

• Ancestor Belief: Mama Shu believes that her sons live on as ancestors, their memories and energies continuing to influence and guide her. She practices rituals like libations, pouring water and calling out to honor their spirits during gatherings and celebrations.

• Celebrations: Events such as Reggae in the Hood and fall equinox bonfires serve as both memorials and joyful celebrations of her sons' lives, blending mourning with moments of happiness.

---

4. Maintaining a Spiritual Connection

[21:23]
Mama Shu describes her ongoing relationship with her sons, emphasizing the importance of staying connected despite their physical absence.

Mama Shu: "I have a full relationship with them. Full relationship."

• Conversations with Her Sons: She often speaks to them aloud, seeking their guidance and feeling their presence in everyday activities, such as selecting gym shoes.

• Energy Recognition: Mama Shu attunes herself to her sons' unique energies, recognizing their influence in various aspects of her life and work.

---

5. Justice and Accountability

[22:25]
The quest for justice remains a crucial aspect of Mama Shu's journey.

• Jacoby's Perpetrator: The individual responsible for Jacoby's death received a sentence ranging from three to fifteen years, emphasizing accountability for the heinous act.

• Chinyelu's Case: While one perpetrator in Chinyelu's murder is deceased, the other remains incarcerated for additional crimes. Mama Shu continues to advocate for justice, working with authorities to ensure accountability.

Mama Shu: "Justice is important for you."

---

6. Lessons Learned and Guidance for Others

[23:38]
When asked about insights gained from her grief, Mama Shu offers heartfelt advice to those navigating similar pain.

Mama Shu: "To strive to stay connected even though the physical bond has been severed, because those souls have something else to do, still just know that they're part of you. It may not seem like it right then and there, but it is a beautiful thing later on, and it can be a beautiful thing later on."

• Embracing Connection: She emphasizes the importance of maintaining a spiritual relationship with lost loved ones, finding solace in their continued presence within one's heart and actions.

• Transformative Grief: Mama Shu advocates for transforming grief into positive action, using her loss as a catalyst to foster community growth and support.

---

7. Building a Legacy of Hope

[26:19]
Mama Shu shares a pivotal moment where her son's spirited encouragement propelled her to raise substantial funds for Avalon Village.

Mama Shu: "Jacoby said, 'big, big, big.' That's all I heard over my shoulder... we ended up raising $243,691 in 30 days."

• Vision for Avalon Village: Her goal extends beyond infrastructure, aiming to create a welcoming, vibrant community akin to the beautiful neighborhoods of her youth. Plans include a grand arch welcoming residents, diverse shops, coffee spots, and venues for concerts and gatherings.

• Financial Journey: Through innovative fundraising methods—ranging from Kickstarter campaigns to bake sales and personalized ventures—Mama Shu has amassed approximately $1.5 million to realize her vision.

---

Conclusion: A Testament to Resilience and Love

Mama Shu's story is a profound testament to human resilience. Through unimaginable loss, she has harnessed her grief to build a sanctuary that not only honors her sons but also uplifts an entire community. Her unwavering commitment to transforming pain into love offers a beacon of hope for others grappling with loss, illustrating that even in the darkest moments, there lies the potential for profound beauty and positive change.

For more information or to support Avalon Village, visit theavalonvillage.org or follow Mama Shu on Instagram. Listeners are also encouraged to share their own grief journeys by calling 917-727-6818, fostering a community of shared healing and support.

---

Note: Portions of this summary include direct quotes from the podcast transcript, attributed with corresponding timestamps for reference.

Transcript

[Anderson Cooper]

This episode is brought to you by Skinny Pop Popcorn Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious. Oh so light and crunchy. Skinny Pop Original Popcorn is the snack you've been searching for. Made with just three simple popcorn kernels, sunflower oil and salt. Snacking never felt or tasted so good. Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious. Give yourself permission to snack and pick up Skinny Pop Original Popcorn today.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

It's so strange when and how grief hits you. I worked all weekend in Los Angeles and flew back to New York late Sunday so I could be home when my kids woke up Monday morning. I was in the car from the airport. It was 2am but suddenly I was on the balcony in my mom's apartment, replaying the last seconds of my brother's life. It's like I was trapped, suspended in this obliterating sadness and swallowed me. The violence of it, the horror of it. I felt like I might pass out, but I just sat there with tears dripping from my eyes, unable to move. I'm not sure how long exactly. I did this in the dark in the backseat of the car. Finally, I forced myself to breathe deeply. He's gone, I thought. All of them are gone. I'm alone. This is all there is. I think I'm going to stop this podcast in a week or two. I think I need to take a break from it for a bit. I've already done an interview for next week's episode and the following week. I want to finish the season with your voices, with your calls. I ended last season with your messages, and I think that's how this season should end as well. We've set up a new phone line for you to call. If you'd like to leave a message in our voice mailbox. Let me know if there's something that you've learned in your grief that might help others. I can't promise we'll use your message, but I do promise I'll listen to all of the messages, though it may take me some time. Feel free to leave your name and phone number, but you don't have to. The number to call is 917-727-6818. That's 917-72-7-6818 and I'll say that again at the end of the podcast. We'll be right back with my guest today, a remarkable woman I really want you to hear from. Her name is Shamayim Mamashu Harris.

[Anderson Cooper]

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for Career Day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

[Rob Lowe]

Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com campaign. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be. To be.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe please and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back. My guest today is Shamayim Harris. Everyone calls her Mama shu. She spent 27 years working as an administrator in schools in Michigan. She's a community activist, a minister, and a mom. In 2007, her two year old son Jacoby was killed when he was hit by a car while crossing the street with his 10 year old brother, Chenyelu. In her grief, Mamashu decided to try and transform what was a rundown block in Highland park, an enclave of Detroit, into a vibrant community. She named it avalon village. In 2021, her other son, Chinyelu was murdered. He was 23 years old. I sat down with Mama Xu last week. Thank you so much for doing this. How did you get the name Mama Shu?

[Anderson Cooper]

So in my community we're addressed as Mama or Baba, which means father. And it's basically an African. It's like a handle, just like Mr. Or Ms. So it's also like a form of respect. The shu is. Shu is the Egyptian God of the air. So my name is Shamayim Mamashu Harris.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Your son Jacobi was killed when he was just two years old. What was he like?

[Anderson Cooper]

He was two years, one month and six days old to be exact. And he was very, very smart. I believe he was just a prodigy. He was a dj. He would have the microphone, rapping and everything. And he would work that turntable and that's amazing. Oh, yes, it was the buttons and everything. He was just a bold little something while he was here. Just a special little being. He was and is what happened on that day? Chinyelu and Jacoby were crossing the street. They were holding hands and they stepped right off of the curb. And then there was a car that came barreling down the street pretty fast and hit Jacoby. And then he kind of landed over by the streetlight. And then my daughter kaifi, she was 12, she ran outside and she picked Jacoby up and she was saying, jacoby, Jacoby. He ended up being brain damaged. Didn't get that much oxygen to his brain. He was connected to the tubes and everything. But basically they just had him holding on. And we knew what the inevitable was going to be. And then what we decided to do was wait until my other daughter, Azizah got back to Detroit so that she can give him a hug. And. And so Kaffee, she still had her clothes, was still like, had blood on them and everything. But she sat there in the chair waiting until Aziza got there. And it was like overnight.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

And she was 12 years old.

[Anderson Cooper]

She was 12 years old. And she sat there and they were so, so close. They were so close. She just. She stayed there. She stayed right there like a big sister and waited on the other big sister to come so she can basically say goodbye.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

What was that night like for you?

[Anderson Cooper]

That night was one of the roughest nights. I really didn't think I was gonna last overnight. Literally, I thought I just wouldn't be able to make it. You know, I thought that maybe my heart would stop. I don't know, I couldn't function no more. Wouldn't be able to eat. I didn't know what was gonna happen. Cause, you know, Anderson, sometimes me and my friends, we would hear about things that would happen to other families and their children actually dying. And we would just have stories like, oh, my God, I would not be able to take it if my kid would die. Oh my God, I would just wanna crawl into the grave with them. Just those are the kind of we were saying before. And so it actually happened to me. And it was. Even the pain was worse later on. It didn't get better. Like the first year is just horrible. Just a realization that my kid got killed. Like, I actually lost my two year old son. He was actually hit by a car holding my other son's hand. And yeah, it just got worse. And what I mean by getting worse, it seems like that first year is like almost the first of everything. You know, the first birthday, the first holidays, these first things that you just notice that somebody missing.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

I heard you say something and I found it really moving. You said, I chose to transform my pain into power, my grief into glory, my loss into love. When I heard that, I was like, wow.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yeah. Cause one thing it does End up being a choice. You know, sometimes we can be in grief so long, but at some point, we do have to keep it moving. Cause those loved ones have kept it moving. They moving.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

How do you do that, man?

[Anderson Cooper]

I'm telling you, every single thing that I do right now is grief. This is grief. It just looks beautiful, and that's the way that I look at it.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

So this is grieving. You are still grieving?

[Anderson Cooper]

Oh, yes. Every single moment. Every single moment. Every single moment. There is not a moment that I don't think about every detail of what happened.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

I've heard you say in the past, Jacoby gives me courage. He just keeps me going. A lot of the things we do around children are because of him. Can you talk about that? After Jacoby's death, what then led you to try to change your community?

[Anderson Cooper]

When I was a little girl, my neighborhood was beautiful. I would talk to the elders and go to the store, and my school was just right around the corner. And everything that you needed and wanted was right there, and I wanted to recreate that.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Highland park, at one time, was one of the best neighborhoods in Michigan.

[Anderson Cooper]

It was. It was very beautiful. The city of trees just was so beautiful. And it took a hit with Chrysler moving out, and our schools started getting closed down. And I wanted it to rise like the Phoenix and be beautiful again. A place that is really, really highly desired to live in. And I just started on this block, and I remember just envisioning it. I didn't want to leave the hood. A lot of people leave. They want to go to maybe somewhere safer or somewhere that has a better school system and, you know, just all of these things that they feel that are better. And I'm like, you know what? I'm staying right on this block, and I'm just going to compact everything that I want on this block and the people want on this block.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

You've acquired 45 lots of land, is that right?

[Anderson Cooper]

Yep. Six structures, and the rest is land. It took about eight years to actually clean it up. And so I'm building a village. We have a park called Jacoby Ra Park. It has his picture. His headstone is actually there. I didn't put it in the cemetery. I had them deliver it here. It's a beautiful space. It's real sunshiny, just like him.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

There have been weddings there. There have been celebrations in that park.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yes, yes. I also do memorials and funerals in the park. The first funeral I had here, actually, was my bonus son. I had a stepson. His name was. He got Killed when he was 34 years old. He was murdered May 13, 2015.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Oh, my gosh.

[Anderson Cooper]

And I did his funeral here in the park. But the Home Workhouse was the very first structure that I wanted to finish, and it took about five years and some change to build.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Actually, Home Workhouse is a place kids can go after school, do their homework. I know there's a music studio there.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yep. They have all kinds of sessions. Art class. We also have a washing machine and dryer. Because working in the school system, I saw a lot of children coming in. Their clothes were dirty. I have underwear and socks and all of those things. Uniform, shirts. Everything is all nice and crispy. We have school supplies, and they get a meal and everything. So we had the STEM lab. I was able to get a grant for our science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. We built one out of a shipping container. But there's a lot of children, unfortunately, who have lost their siblings, their brothers and their sisters and uncles through mostly murder, mostly crimes like that. And so we try to have support for them. We have support groups here at the Homework House.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

I read that the one streetlight on the street was repossessed. Is that even allowed?

[Anderson Cooper]

So, Anderson, they took all of the streetlights in Highland Park. All of the residential areas, the streetlights got repossessed back in 2011. So they actually came and picked up the poles, and actually it was about maybe 1200. And they took them out of all of the side streets. So right now, Avalon Village and another area, we did a fundraiser. We're the only very first relit block since the lights were repossessed.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

So you're the only one who has light.

[Anderson Cooper]

We have six solar street lights. Five of them have WI FI capabilities, so the kids could pull up, do their homework. People can sit in the park and chill and sit in their cars if they need to get on the Internet.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

How much has all this cost so far?

[Anderson Cooper]

Oh, my goodness. Oh, Lord. You know, I would probably say maybe close to a million and a half. And this is over time. We raised 250,000 in our very first Kickstarter that we did. So that was like the first big chunk of money that I was able to initiate and start the village. So I just try to find funding through grants and different things like that to build what it is that we need. I sold fish sandwiches and stuff, too, Anderson. Yep, sure did. We had bake sales, fish sandwich sandwiches to buy the. Buy the land. You know, some of the land was 300 bucks for the lots and everything. So my goal is to have A nice, beautiful arch that says, welcome to Avalon Village. Like, when you pull up in those beautiful gated communities, how it looks with all the beautiful shops and to have coffee and tea and sit and read a book in the park and the concerts and different things like that. So we're doing all of that. We're doing all of that.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Mama Xu's only surviving son, Shinielu, who was 10 years old when that speeding car ripped his little brother Jacoby's hand from his worked security in avalon Village. On January 26, 2021, he was shot to death.

[Anderson Cooper]

Every detail of what happened to my son Chinyelu, everything, it's just still, everything is so vivid. It's just three years, 126, 21 is when he became an ancestor.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

And what happened to him?

[Anderson Cooper]

Chinyelu. His name is Chinyelu Gab Cajero. So he got murdered. Somebody shot him five times. He was right across the street. He was sitting in his truck and he was doing security. I was inside of the house, and I was on zoom. And I'll never forget it. I heard some gunshots, and I flung open the front door, and I started screaming Chinyelu's name. I was hollering, I said, chin, Chin, chin. I must have called him about eight, nine, ten times. And actually, I saw who killed my son, and I saw them run. Chinyelu, he died. And our neighbors right across the alley died in their doorway. He knocked on their door, bammed on their door, and he laid out, and he died right there. I remember straddling Chinyelu, and he was bleeding, and he was gone at that point. And I remember just looking at him and I just whispered in him. I just remember saying, chin, this is it. This is the day. This is the day you are really gone. And I just whispered some things in his ear, and I just got up off of him when the ambulance came and everything, and I saw them working on him and everything, but I already knew he was gone, you know, but they had to do that. I already knew what it was. Yeah. That right there is devastating. It still is. That is still just very, very fresh.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

And you said to him, this is the day.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yeah, yeah. Cause so what I understand about humans is I just feel that everybody comes here with their own separate journey. And the loved ones and the family, we never know when they decide, hey, the gig is up for me. I've done what I've done here on the planet. This is it. My son Jacoby, his was up in two years, one month and six days old. And so I understood that with Chien, too. I'm like, wow, 23. Like, this is the detaching moment from him and us and just being here. So that's just. That's the way that I felt about it. And now Jacoby and Chinyelu, because they come from me and I'm their mother, they still live inside of me. They're still part of me. And so a lot of the things that I manifest, I manifest in their memory because they're still living inside of me. I can't detach from that part, but physically it's happened. So I still feel that I raised my children into heaven. So a lot of the beautiful things that we've done, the park in my son's name. I built shrines for my sons. We have a basketball court that we call My Three Sons. And it has their faces on the basketball court. I had a beautiful mural. So those are like my three boys. But Chinyelu's shrine is very beautiful. We got some of the. Some of his friends, they helped to build it, and it's a space where they hang out. So we have these beautiful, lovely spaces here for the boys. And in their memory, I've heard you.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Say that he became an ancestor, and I'm wondering what that means to you.

[Anderson Cooper]

So basically, the ancestors, for me, I believe they're not here physically, but all of their memories, a lot of their ways, a lot of things that they do, we can still honor them. And I still honor them. Whenever we have ceremonies or we have parties or we have something, we want everybody to be there, all the family members. I do something called libations. I have my cup and I pour water. And we just call out all of the folks who have become ancestors, the folks who have died in our families. And we just bring up them and we bring up their energies, and we want them present. And then when they get here, we say they are here, and then we go ahead and party, almost. Anderson, like when you see guys and they may pour some wine and say, this is for the homies. That's what we do. That's for the homies and for the family members that are residing in the spiritual world.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Jacopi died in 2007.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yes.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

On his birthday. You do you still have a big party? I had heard that you have a big, like, reggae concert.

[Anderson Cooper]

Oh, yeah, we do. Yes. We party up a storm. Okay, Anderson, we have the biggest gig, I'm telling you. It's called Reggae in the Hood. Yes. I get so excited about it because it's just so, anyway, so Jacoby was born on Marcus Garvey's birthday, August 17th. And so we have this big old reggae concert festival, and we have about four reggae bands, and guess what? We party on Chin's birthday and also when he became an ancestor. So for my boys, they have two celebrations. They have one for their birth dates, and they have one when they become an ancestor. So on September 23rd, we have our fall equinox bonfire, and we also celebrate Jacobi crossing over into the spiritual world. I'm a minister since 2001, and there's a passage in the Bible, and it talks about enduring sadness. Psalms 35, it says, weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning. And for me, the joy, for me, Anderson, comes in the morning, but not in the morning like you wake up. It comes in the M O U R N I N G, the actual morning. And that's what I've been able to find with my boys and with my loved ones. I've been able to find that. That peace right there so that I can keep going and keep it moving here on Earth. And so the things that I create, it's mourning. That's why I said, it's just. This is grief. But it's like the beautiful side of grief, and there is a beautiful side of it.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

I think to be able to find joy in it would be an extraordinary thing.

[Anderson Cooper]

So, yeah, for me to create Jacoby Robb park brought me healing, brought me joy, brought me happiness, and that's what I show. And I talk to a lot of mothers who have lost their sons, and I show them how they can actually honor their children and create shrines and do beautiful artworks and, what did your son like? And just to show them how to put things together. So I try to find ways to help them, but I do tell them that it gets more bearable as you go on. I do say that, but I am very truthful about it in saying that this is just some raw shit you're gonna feel for a while. You know, for a while. I think that one of my. One of the greatest things here is just to enjoy things right now, how they are right now, how beautiful they are right now. And not to attach yourself so tightly.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Not to attach yourself so tightly to.

[Anderson Cooper]

What I had to understand and detach from the physicalness of them, to learn that piece and know that I can still deal with those boys on a higher level. And that's what I do right now, to be able to still be their mother, still understand and be able to commune with their spirits. I know that they're gone. I know that they're dead. I know that they're not here. I know that they're ancestors. But I also know that they're still here because they're part of me. And I'm still able to work with those boys. And I do. And I feel them. I know when they're around. I know when they have their hand in certain things that happen. I just feel it.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

And you still have a relationship with them?

[Anderson Cooper]

Yes, I have a full relationship with them. Full relationship.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Do you talk to them?

[Anderson Cooper]

I talk to them of being a parent. Because I feel in my head that I'm still a parent. I'm still a parent, but I'm raising these boys in the heavens, so I'm still connected. That's how I feel. And I talk to them, hey, I'm doing this. And it's just certain things that happen that go through. And I'm like, oh, okay. That wasn't nothing but chin, you know? That wasn't nothing but chin that did this, you know? Oh, that was Jacoby right there. I always know. I always know which one, too. Cause I know their energies.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

They each have their own distinctive signature.

[Anderson Cooper]

Oh, my goodness. Whenever it's time for a rah rah or for me to, like, stand up is. That's Chinyelu. Like, ma, you about to do this, and whoop, whoop, whoop. That was his. That's how he would talk you about to do the whoop de doo. I was like, yes, I am. Yeah, that was Chinyelu, boy.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

The person who was driving the car that killed Jacoby, what happened to that person?

[Anderson Cooper]

So Jacoby, his killer, he actually was a neighbor. Anderson lived on our same street. He got three to 15 years. He ended up doing three. But he was held accountable. And basically what happened was he left the scene.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

He left the scene knowing he had hit.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yes. And that's why he got three to 15 years. The people who killed Chinyelu, from what I understand, one of them is deceased, and the other one is in jail right now. He's in for another crime. So I'm trying to work with the authorities. I'm telling them, I saw what happened. I saw the people running away. I saw the men. I can identify the young man and everything. I don't know. It's just really, really slow, and it's just dragging. And that right there for me, Anderson, it adds to the grief.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Justice is important for you.

[Anderson Cooper]

Whew. Yes, it is, because I got justice with Jacoby. But justice for Chanyelo is really important to me because. Because it just is. And I think that he should be held accountable. So for me, that part right there is going to be solved, and it's going to be taken care of.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Is there something you've learned in your grief that would help others who are listening right now in their grief, I.

[Anderson Cooper]

Would say, to strive to stay connected even though the physical bond has been severed, because those souls have something else to do, still just know that they're part of you. It may not seem like it right then and there, but it is a beautiful thing later on, and it can be a beautiful thing later on.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

That notion that you can still have a relationship with somebody who's died is something I learned in the first season of this podcast from people I was talking to. And it was a revelation to me, and it's extraordinary, and it has helped me tremendously. That idea. It sort of opened up my mind to thinking about grief in a different way.

[Anderson Cooper]

And sometimes it may even help to even. Just like, daddy, Daddy, I'm here, right here. This is feeling this kind of way. Or ma. It's all right to say it out loud and stuff. That's what I do sometimes. Like, Chin. Sometimes I'm so dis. I do like Chin. You gotta say their name. Say it three times. Watch. Daddy, what should I. You know, I'm going through this. It's all right to say it like that. I have, like, conversations just like that. I do. I talk to him just like, he's here right now when I'm picking out gym shoes. For real.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

You need his advice?

[Anderson Cooper]

Oh, my goodness, Chin. Is he sweet or not? You should. I do. And I'm gonna tell you, I've been. I've become a gym shoe head since him because I'm telling you, he loved Jordans, all kinds of stuff. Whenever I see him, I was like, yes, Chin. Were like, these. I'm getting. These boys used to see me, and I just. And I get them. So now I'm like, oh, my God. I'm 58 and got this whole gym shoe closet. And it's just. But it's just so much fun because that's why I stay in the moment. And when Jacoby says things, it's usually over my right shoulder. I'm gonna tell you just one quick thing right quick. When we were raising money initially for building the village and we did this Kickstarter, my team was like, $50,000. Let's raise $50,000. I'm like, $50,000. That ain't gonna get us nowhere. That ain't nothing but a roof. And I remember hearing Jacoby saying, big, big, big. That's all I heard over my shoulder. And I'm like, okay. I said, nope, we're gonna go 241,900. $241,900. That's the amount. That's our goal. And we ended up raising243,691 in 30 days.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Wow.

[Anderson Cooper]

And I was just so, so happy. But when he said, go big, I was like, yeah, yeah, go big. And now that's the way I think, too. You know what? I'm not gonna small change nothing, Anderson. I'm going for it. And Jacoby have made me go for it for real. He said, don't play around with this. My big, big. So whenever I'm thinking I'm small in myself or what it is that I'm doing and everything, I'm like, no, big. And he was just a little short thing, you know? But yes, I remember I just hear him speaking. Speaking it, Bo. Loud and clear. Yep. So that's what keeps me going, too.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

That's grief to glory.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yes, that's grief to glory.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Mama Shu, thank you so much.

[Anderson Cooper]

You're welcome, Anderson. Thank you. And peace and love to you and your heart.

[Shamayim Mamashu Harris]

Mama Shu continues to raise money to expand and improve Avalon Village. If you'd like to contribute to her dream or find out more information, you can go to her website, theavalonvillage.org or follow her on Instagram. And a reminder, we've set up a new phone line for you to call. If you would like to leave a message in our voice mailbox, let me know if there's something you've learned in your grief that might help others. I can't promise we'll use your message, but I do promise I'll listen to all of the messages. Feel free to leave your name and phone number, but you don't have to. The number to call is 917-727-6818. That's 917-727-6818. I'll be back next week with a new episode of All There Is. And remember, wherever you are in your grief, you're not alone. All There Is is a production of CNN Audio. The show is produced by Grace Walker and Dan Bloom. Our senior producers are Hayley Thomas and Felicia Patinka. Dan Dzula is our technical director, and Steve Lichtai is the executive producer of CNN Audio. Support from Charlie Moore, Carrie Rubin, Shimrit Sheetrit. Ronnie Bettis, Alex Manaseri, Robert Mathers, John Deonnora, Lainey Steinhardt, Jamis Andres, Nicole Pesaru and Lisa Namro. Special thanks to Katie hi.

[Rob Lowe]

There's a reason the Sleep Number Smart Bed is the number one best bed for couples. It's because you can each choose what's right for you whenever you like. Firmer or softer on either side. Sleep Number does that one side cooler and the other side warmer. Sleep Number does that too. You have to feel it to believe it. Sleep better together. And now, during Sleep Number's Black Friday sale, save 50% on the Sleep Number Limited Edition Smart Bedroom plus special financing for a limited time. Find Sleep Number Smart Beds at every price point only at a Sleep number store or sleepnumber.com.