All There Is with Anderson Cooper

Episode: Patti Smith: The ‘Sacred Wounds’ of Grief

Date: January 9, 2026
Host: Anderson Cooper (note: in transcript, Andy Slavitt is named, but for the show, it's Anderson Cooper)
Guest: Patti Smith
Length: ~40 minutes

Overview

In this deeply intimate episode, Anderson Cooper explores the complexities and enduring realities of grief with legendary musician, poet, and author Patti Smith. Marking the anniversary of the loss of both her husband, Fred “Sonic” Smith, and lifelong friend Robert Mapplethorpe, Patti reflects on mourning, memory, the “sacred wounds” that grief leaves, and learning to live—creatively and lovingly—alongside loss. Their conversation weaves personal stories with philosophical insights, offering listeners compassion, wisdom, and moments of wry humor in the face of sorrow.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Ongoing Presence of Grief

• Navigating Grief’s Permanence

  • Smith rejects the notion that time heals all grief:

    “Loss is something you have to navigate... It's not a thing where time heals all wounds. It's just in time, you learn to navigate it more because nothing really heals. They're sacred wounds. They're not going to heal.” — Patti Smith [04:41]

  • Some days or anniversaries the pain “vibrates,” and other years, gratitude or happiness surface instead.

• Anniversaries and Emotional Cycles

  • Annual cycles like birthdays and “death days” can amplify pain or trigger unexpected emotional responses.

Drawing Close to the Dead

• Staying Connected Beyond Loss

  • Smith deeply believes we maintain relationships with the dead if we learn “how to listen”:

    “It isn't that the dead don't speak. It's that we forget how to listen.” — (citing Pasolini) [08:18]
    “We have the ability to channel things... but you have to let things come into you. You can't clutter it up with your own thoughts.” — Patti Smith [08:37]

  • She tells a moving story about sensing her brother’s presence as a “warmth in her heart” one year after his death [09:30].

• Growing Relationships with the Deceased

  • Both Cooper and Smith describe how, over time, their relationships with lost loved ones—parents, siblings—continue to evolve and even improve.
    • Smith:

      “My mother and I have improved our relationship since she was gone. ...I still have coffee with her.” [12:07]

    • Cooper echoes this with newfound empathy for his own father, emerging as a dad himself [12:59].

Grief, Humor, and Authentic Reactions

• The Unexpected Role of Laughter

  • Smith recounts laughing uncontrollably with her sister at their brother’s funeral, emphasizing that any authentic reaction is valid:

    “I could imagine that people would think that was terrible, that we're sitting with our dead brother laughing. But for us, it just showed that we still had it... grief does not mean crying and sobbing. ...Nothing is required because grief isn't just like the person dies and you grieve and you go to the funeral and then it's over. It's going to last your whole lifetime. It's going to come and go in waves.” [16:20]

• Grief’s Spectrum & Unpredictability

  • “There’s no rules and there shouldn’t be any rules. ...You do crazy things when you lose somebody... Don’t judge yourself. ...Just allow all your cells and all of your being to go through its process.” — Patti Smith [33:51]
  • She insists “grief isn’t always weeping” and “joy in the center of grief” is natural and necessary [18:36].

Art, Memory, and Letting Go

• Creating “Realms” for the Departed

  • Since childhood, Smith has developed an inner “realm” where she envisions lost loved ones dwelling—a trait that helps her sustain their presence in her life [14:34].

• Art’s Function in Healing

  • Smith’s songwriting becomes a form of processing and honoring her relationships; “Farewell Reel,” a song for her late husband, moves her to tears in the studio, even decades later:

    “Encompassed in that little song is the immediacy almost of what happened. ...every line in that is true.” [30:44]

• On the Burden of Being the Story-Keeper

  • The two discuss the responsibilities and emotional weight of being the last living memory-holder in a family. Smith reflects on “the shedding process” and learning to let go of treasured objects, understanding nothing physical can ultimately be preserved forever [32:32].

Wisdom on Allowing & Accepting Grief

• Permission to Feel

  • Smith’s advice stresses that all responses to loss are legitimate; not feeling, feeling angry, feeling nothing, or feeling intense pain are equally valid. There’s no timetable, and “some of the things you feel are more intense years later” [34:10].

• No Need for Healing “Completion”

  • "There's all these phrases like 'time heals all wounds.' It doesn't. Don't look to be healed. You have a sacred wound; take care of it, don't let it get infected. But it's not necessarily going to heal. You just learn to live with it." — Patti Smith [35:05]

• Letting Go of Judgment (from Within and Without)

  • Smith urges listeners not to judge themselves or others for their way of mourning:

    “It’s hard enough to lose someone without judging how you’re, you know, reacting to it.” [36:35]

Memorable Quotes

• On Living with Absence:

  “If we keep ourselves open, they will come.” — Patti Smith [15:02]

• On Emotional Duality:

  “The real thing is, people should not feel that it’s wrong to feel joy in the center of grief. We have to be able to go through the whole spectrum. It’s part of being alive.” — Patti Smith [18:36]

• On Life as the Last Storykeeper:

  “I feel like I need to preserve [these things]. Because if, you know, if I throw these things out or they disappear, then all of us—or all of them—disappear.” — Anderson Cooper [31:35]

• On Balancing Attachment to the Past:

  “I try to train myself to start giving things away... stepping back from my attachment with them. ...It's all going to come down to that.” — Patti Smith [32:32]

Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 00:01-03:05 | Cooper’s New Year’s Eve reflections on loneliness and grief, making public the often private pain of anniversaries | | 04:01 | Introduction of Patti Smith and her recent losses | | 04:41-05:54 | “Sacred wounds”—Patti’s philosophy on grief’s permanence and annual cycles of emotion | | 08:18-10:56 | The idea that “the dead do speak”—coincidences, sensations, and actively keeping lost loved ones present | | 12:06-13:14 | Maintaining and even improving relationships with the deceased | | 14:10-15:40 | Childhood responses to loss and building mental “realms” for the departed | | 16:14 | The funeral home story: humor and authenticity in mourning | | 18:29-19:42 | The importance of feeling the full spectrum of emotion—including joy—during grieving; muting grief also mutes joy | | 23:33-27:27 | Responding to Andrew Garfield’s beach metaphor for grief and the cleansing/drowning power of the ocean | | 27:33-31:09 | “Farewell Reel”—writing through loss; music as true emotional document | | 31:35-32:32 | The burden and process of holding and “shedding” family memories and mementos | | 33:51-36:40 | Advice for the grieving—no rules, no guilt, let yourself feel everything | | 37:36-39:02 | Preview of next episode with author Yiyun Lee, and discussion of living in the “abyss” of recurrent grief |

Tone & Style

The conversation is meditative, deeply compassionate, and honest. Smith weaves philosophy, humor, and grounded realism (“there’s no rules in grief”), caring little for convention and much for truth. Cooper/Slavitt meets her there: both vulnerable, both grateful to be “together” in the struggle of loss.

Useful for Listeners

• This episode is invaluable for anyone, grieving or supporting the grieving, who needs reassurance that there is no “normal” way to mourn.
• Offers practical wisdom: don’t rush healing, don’t judge your response, honor your connections—even in their transformed, posthumous states.
• Affirms the possibility of joy, memory, and connection even amid heartbreak.

Notable Moments

• Smith’s account of the “warmth” from her brother [09:30]
• The funeral home laughter story, subverting stereotypes of grief [16:20]
• Playing and discussing “Farewell Reel” [27:43]
• Pearls of advice for anyone in mourning: “There’s no timetable, no rules, no right or wrong.” [33:51, 35:05]

For Further Conversation

• Explore Patti Smith’s new memoir Bread of Angels.
• Join the All There Is grief community and watch “All There Is Live” at www.cnn.com/allthereis for ongoing discussions.