Revisiting Ashley Judd: Grief, Love and Naomi

Summary

All There Is with Anderson Cooper: Revisiting Ashley Judd - Grief, Love, and Naomi

Episode Release Date: November 27, 2024
Host: Anderson Cooper
Guest: Ashley Judd
Podcast Description: In Season 3 of All There Is, Anderson Cooper delves deeply into the multifaceted experience of grief. In this poignant episode, he interviews Ashley Judd, an actress, author, activist, and mental health advocate, who shares her personal journey through loss and healing following the suicide of her mother, Naomi Judd.

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1. Setting the Stage: Personal Reflections on Grief

The episode opens with Anderson Cooper sharing his own struggles with recognizing holidays after the tragic death of his brother, Carter Cooper. He states, “[...] after my brother Carter died, my mom and I stopped recognizing holidays, Christmas, Thanksgiving. It was all just too painful” (00:30). This sets a relatable tone for listeners who may experience similar feelings during significant times of the year.

Notable Quote:

“Talking about grief, and listening to others share their grief experiences helps.”
— Anderson Cooper (00:30)

2. Ashley Judd’s Journey Through Grief

Ashley Judd begins by reflecting on the enduring nature of the past and its impact on present grief, citing William Faulkner’s famous line: “The past is never dead. It's not even past” (01:18). She introduces an addendum by Greg Iles, emphasizing how unresolved childhood grief continues to influence her life.

Notable Quote:

“The grief I've so long buried is increasingly, insistently trying to make itself known to me. I just don't know if I'm ready to welcome it.”
— Ashley Judd (02:23)

3. Understanding Grief vs. Trauma

A significant portion of the discussion centers on distinguishing grief from trauma. Ashley explains, “Trauma is intrusive. It comes up unbidden. It’s a memory that's not processed and that lives free in the brain... Grief is a natural, organic human process that has natural stages, that self resolve over time” (09:51). This clarification helps listeners understand the different ways individuals process loss and hardship.

Notable Quote:

“Grief is in a scrapbook, like an old-fashioned scrapbook in a photograph behind a page of cellophane stored on a bookshelf.”
— Ashley Judd (16:45)

4. Coping Mechanisms and Therapeutic Interventions

Ashley shares her experience with Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) therapy, a technique she used to process the trauma associated with her mother’s death. She describes EMDR as a way to reprocess traumatic memories so they become less intrusive, allowing her to “grieve” more effectively (14:52).

Notable Quote:

“The explicit image of the traumatic event for a few seconds. But you do have to hold it. You do have to bring it up initially, and then it goes away.”
— Ashley Judd (15:03)

5. Maintaining a Relationship with the Deceased

Both Anderson and Ashley explore the concept of maintaining an ongoing relationship with loved ones who have passed away. Ashley shares how she honors her mother’s memory by engaging in traditions and conversations that keep her spirit alive. For instance, she selects greeting cards she believes her mother would have chosen and participates in family traditions like taking family pictures (23:32).

Notable Quote:

“We have conversations with our loved ones about how they’re just with the mystery. It’s like having a dialogue that transcends physical presence.”
— Ashley Judd (17:57)

6. Supporting Loved Ones Facing Mental Illness

Ashley addresses the delicate balance of supporting loved ones who suffer from mental illness or addiction. She emphasizes the importance of offering compassion without enabling destructive behaviors. “We can have compassion and say, I see you... But we can’t do for them what they can and should do for themselves” (31:28).

Notable Quote:

“We are not betraying our loved ones by pursuing a good life for ourselves when they are sick and suffering.”
— Ashley Judd (30:21)

7. Reflecting on Unfinished Business and Healing

The conversation delves into the theme of unfinished business in grief. Anderson shares his fears of not having fully reconciled with his mother, while Ashley talks about her own journey to forgive and heal from past resentments. This mutual exploration underscores the ongoing nature of healing and the importance of addressing unresolved emotions (37:14).

Notable Quote:

“That was the catalyst and the catapult.”
— Ashley Judd (37:14)

8. Embracing Grief as a Universal Experience

Towards the end of the episode, Ashley highlights the paradox of grief—it feels intensely personal yet is a universal experience shared by all. She encourages listeners to seek community and support, asserting, “We do not have to do it alone” (39:07).

Notable Quote:

“The strange thing about grief is that it feels so alone and yet it is this experience which everybody has gone through or will go through.”
— Ashley Judd (38:44)

Conclusion: Embracing Hope and Community

The episode concludes with a heartfelt exchange between Anderson and Ashley, reinforcing the importance of community support in the grieving process. Ashley expresses gratitude for being part of a community of grievers and offers words of peace and encouragement to listeners navigating their own journeys of loss (39:11).

Final Quote:

“Peace be with you. If you or someone you love is struggling, help is available...”
— Ashley Judd (39:11)

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Resources Mentioned:

• National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline: Call or text 988 for immediate support.
• Websites and Books:
  • grief.com
  • Loving Parent Guidebook
  • Opening Our Hearts: Transforming Our Losses

Producer Credits:
The episode was produced by Grace Walker and Dan Bloom, with senior production by Hayley Thomas, technical direction by Dan Dezzulla, and executive production by Steve Lichtai. Special thanks to Nicole Pesaru, Lisa Namorow, and Wendy Brundage.

Join the Conversation:
Engage with the All There Is online grief community at cnn.com/allthereisonline to share your story and connect with others on similar journeys.

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This episode of All There Is with Anderson Cooper offers a profound exploration of grief, blending personal narratives with expert insights. Through the candid dialogue between Anderson Cooper and Ashley Judd, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complexities of loss, the distinction between grief and trauma, and the pathways to healing and hope.

Transcript

[Cleveland Clinic]

From all over the world, people turn to Cleveland Clinic for our expertise and our compassionate care as leaders in heart, neurology and cancer. The future of specialty care is happening right now at Cleveland Clinic. For every life saving treatment, for every next step, for every care in the world. Cleveland Clinic.

[Anderson Cooper]

Welcome to all there is. I'm Anderson Cooper. I'm on vacation this week with my kids and I'll be celebrating Thanksgiving. I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but after my brother Carter died, my mom and I stopped recognizing holidays, Christmas, Thanksgiving. It was all just too painful.

[Ashley Judd]

I know for many of you listening.

[Anderson Cooper]

Right now, this week may be tough. I just want you to know that you're not the only one who feels that way. I'm going to be enjoying being with my kids this week, but any holiday is also a reminder of the people.

[Ashley Judd]

I love who aren't here.

[Anderson Cooper]

I'll have an all new episode of the podcast next week. What follows is an episode from last season. It's my interview with Ashley Judd.

[Ashley Judd]

Let's get started.

The past is never dead. It's not even past. William Faulkner wrote that in his novel.

Requiem for a Nun, and my mom.

Liked to quote it a lot. I found an addendum of sorts to it online recently, a quote by a writer named Greg Iles from his book the Quiet Game. I want to read it to you because I think it speaks to grief in a powerful way, iles wrote. Faulkner said the past is never dead. It's not even past. All of us labor in webs spun long before we were born, webs of heredity and environment, of desire and consequence, of history and eternity, haunted by wrong turns and roads not taken. We pursue images perceived as new, but whose providence dates to the dim dramas of childhood, which are themselves but ripples of consequence echoing down the generations. The quotidian demands of life distract from this resonance of images and events, but some of us feel it always. The past has felt especially present to me these last few weeks. Perhaps it's because of the holidays I've so long avoided, or the anniversary of my dad's death last Friday. But the dim dramas of my childhood have been playing out very brightly in my mind. The grief I've so long buried is increasingly, insistently trying to make itself known to me. I just don't know if I'm ready to welcome it. I'm not sure what's more embarrassing, my desire to weep or my continued difficulty in doing so. This is all there is with me. Anderson Cooper. My guest on the podcast is Ashley Judd but before we start, I want to mention that we're going to be discussing the death of Ashley's mom, singer Naomi Judd, who died by suicide. If you or someone you love is struggling, help is available in the US you can call or text the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. We'll get started in a moment. Welcome back to all There is. Ashley Judd is an actress, author, activist, and mental health advocate. She's also the daughter of Naomi Judd and sister of Wynonna. Naomi and Wynonna were one of the most successful country music acts in history, with a string of hits and multiple Grammy and Country Music association awards. Naomi Judd struggled with physical and mental health issues for years. And in April 2022, one day before she and Wynonna were due to be inducted into the Country Music hall of Fame, Naomi Judd died by suicide. She was 76 years old. Ashley Judd joins me now.

Would it be okay if I played a little bit of one of her songs?

[Anderson Cooper]

Oh, please do.

[Ashley Judd]

This is Love Can Build a Bridge. This is actually the last performance that she did with your sister. April 11, 2022, and she died on April 30th.

Love can build between your heart and mine Love can feel a bridge don't you think it's time? Don't you think it's time?

I've always been so proud of the music. I've always loved the music.

Has grief been what you expected it would be like?

Well, I've had several journeys with grief, and each has been distinct, unique, and also universal.

[Anderson Cooper]

So my grief journey started as a.

[Ashley Judd]

Child because I played the role of the lost child in my family system growing up. And so when I came into recovery in 2006, what they said is that I had unresolved childhood grief. That child grief is such a deep, hollow ache. And when I started to cry, it felt like it was those bottomless tears to which there was no end. And I wondered if I could die from crying. But I realized it's the not crying that will kill me. It's the not crying that will kill me.

I still find it very hard to allow myself to cry, but I feel like there is a well of tears even now as I'm speaking to you, just beneath the surface that could very easily explode.

Yes, I identify with that, you know, and it comes in these waves, and it has so many different characteristics. You know, one of the things that I want to offer is that I have learned how to hold my own.

[Anderson Cooper]

Hand and my crying.

[Ashley Judd]

And there is a Place where trauma.

[Anderson Cooper]

And grief and transcendence meet.

[Ashley Judd]

And I call it the braid.

The braid, yes.

Yeah. That they all go together and there's this beautiful melding. But I believe I have a higher power who suffers with me.

[Anderson Cooper]

That's just fundamental to the God of my understanding.

[Ashley Judd]

And so I tried to go to this place where God was with me.

[Anderson Cooper]

And so all of that was touching this transcendence. Simultaneously.

[Ashley Judd]

You have said I was powerless over my childhood. The survival strategies I developed made my adult life unmanageable. That is completely what I've now realized. That all the things that I developed to get through my childhood, all the strategies I developed of keeping things inside, doing everything myself, never asking anybody for help or advice, it has made my adult life unmanageable. These are strategies which have gotten me this far, but they are keeping me stuck in this middle ground of not experiencing real grief, but also not experiencing real joy because I can't allow myself to experience any strong emotion.

And that line is borrowed from a piece of very wise recovery literature. And I have to acknowledge that those survival strategies were really brilliant. You know, they were creative and adaptive.

[Anderson Cooper]

And resilient, and they got me through.

[Ashley Judd]

Things that otherwise I perhaps wouldn't have made it through. And then as an adult, I'm so conditioned to rely on those strategies. But I can learn new ways, and I can separate out the things for which, as a child, I was not responsible when I was born.

[Anderson Cooper]

And needy and defenseless.

[Ashley Judd]

I've heard from so many listeners who have unresolved grief or unprocessed grief. Do you still feel like that little.

Girl is inside you?

That that little girl is the person who reacts in a crisis situation first?

Absolutely, yes. And, you know, I think that developing a relationship with the child who's always alive inside of us is a joy and a delight and terrifying. And sometimes I wish she would just shut up and go away and mind your own business and get off my back and so needy. And then also she's, you know, she's my responsibility. We have to take care of that.

[Anderson Cooper]

Part of us because no one else will. And when it's time for us to.

[Ashley Judd]

Die and we take those final last steps, we take them with all the parts of ourselves and our loved ones who may be by our side or maybe not, can only go so far with us. And then it is truly down to the God within us who is in us like butter is in milk. It's the parts of us that have been with us, inside of ourselves and God. And that is it.

[Anderson Cooper]

And if we've abandoned those parts, we have abandoned ourselves.

[Ashley Judd]

Your childhood growing up was. I mean, you wrote about childhood rape, about neglect, about sexual abuse by a male relative. There were two years where you were living alone while your mom and your.

Sister were on tour.

[Anderson Cooper]

And then there were my grandparents who.

[Ashley Judd]

Saved my life because I lived with.

[Anderson Cooper]

Them in the summertime where I was fed and watered and had a routine.

[Ashley Judd]

And they kept me going. It was ghastly and it was lonely, but I also acknowledged there was a lot of love in my family. It just hurt, right? It didn't work particularly well, and it hurt. But I also had these two sets of grandparents with whom I lived in Appalachia, and they were my high holy altar of safety.

So do you feel like you have been grieving for much of your life?

[Anderson Cooper]

Yes, and I think that I'm grief.

[Ashley Judd]

Literate now, and grief and I are on pretty good terms. That doesn't mean I get a pass. It doesn't mean that there's a shortcut, but there's a shorthand.

[Anderson Cooper]

And we should say that there's a difference between trauma and grief, right?

[Ashley Judd]

Because the trauma is intrusive. It comes up unbidden. We don't have any control over it. It's a memory that's not processed and that lives free in the brain, bouncing around and seizes us beyond our control. And grief is a natural, organic human process that has natural stages, that self resolve over time.

The death of your mom, how is that grief different than grief you had experienced throughout your life?

[Anderson Cooper]

That's a really good question, Anderson, because.

[Ashley Judd]

I think that the death of a parent is something for which we at least conceptually, have some kind of preparation. And I also knew that she was walking with mental illness and that her brain hurt and that she was suffering. But that didn't necessarily prepare me. My mother's death was traumatic and unexpected because it was death by suicide. And I found her. And so it had this calamitous dynamic. My grief was in lockstep with trauma.

[Anderson Cooper]

Because of the manner of her death.

[Ashley Judd]

And the fact that I found her. And so what I needed to do first was like, vomit, you know, just. I held my mother as she was dying. It was a Pieta. So I. But then there was. There was. You know, people need to be aware that there's. That. It's a bit of a graphic story. And there was blood, and I just needed to, like, process the fact that I was with my mother's blood. You know, I'm so glad I was there because Even when I walked in that room and I saw that she had harmed herself, the first thing out of my mouth was, mama, I see how much you've been suffering.

You said that to her.

And it is okay. It is okay to go. It's okay to go.

[Anderson Cooper]

I am here.

[Ashley Judd]

It is okay to let go. I love you.

[Anderson Cooper]

Go see your daddy. Go see Papa Judd.

[Ashley Judd]

Go be with your people.

And she heard you.

[Anderson Cooper]

Oh, she heard me.

[Ashley Judd]

And I just got in the bed.

[Anderson Cooper]

With her and held her and talked to her and said, let it all go. Be free.

[Ashley Judd]

All was forgiven long ago. All was forgiven long ago. Leave it all here.

[Anderson Cooper]

Take nothing with you.

[Ashley Judd]

Just be free. And I did that for.

[Anderson Cooper]

I don't know what it was. 14, 15 minutes, just held her.

[Ashley Judd]

It's an extraordinary blessing that you were able to do that.

Oh, it was. You know, she wrote this beautiful song in 1975 about how we just found the notebook in which she has it written down in her handwriting, about how I picked her for my human life.

[Anderson Cooper]

And she birthed me.

[Ashley Judd]

And then the song goes on to say, when I hold her ashes in my hand and I let them go, I'm to carry on because my spirit is bright inside of me. And, oh, when I read that, I wept. I wept and I wept. And it was like this blessing, this.

[Anderson Cooper]

She birthed me and I got to midwife her home.

[Ashley Judd]

And the exquisite symmetry of that, I'm so thankful I was there.

Even knowing the trauma you would go through, you still were glad.

You know, with the healing arts that are available and my ability to access them and my willingness to do it, it was a very small price to pay.

You said that in the fall of 2022, you began to have nightmares and you began to weep in your sleep and have intrusive thoughts. How long did that go on for?

You know, the truth is, I had to work my ass off. It took work. I kept a commitment, and I went to the rainforest in Central Africa in June. Mom died on the 30th of April. And my partner has a bonobo research camp in a very remote part of the Congo and with unfpa, for whom I serve as goodwill ambassador. And so I went and I. That's when I first started weeping in my sleep.

Were you actually asleep or waking up and weeping?

Yes, yes. Yes, I was asleep and I was crying in my sleep. And then I got a referral to a particularly expert EMDR practitioner, and I just dragged my bones over there twice a week for three months just to work on my trauma.

Emdr is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing a series of rapid eye movements while rethinking about a traumatic episode. Is that correct?

[Anderson Cooper]

Yes. And then the brain is so imaginative.

[Ashley Judd]

And generative, it really takes over.

[Anderson Cooper]

And so you only have to hold.

[Ashley Judd]

The explicit image of the traumatic event for a few seconds. But you do have to hold it. You do have to bring it up initially, and then it goes away. And it helps the traumatic memories be processed and stored into the brain in a way that makes them not intrusive and come blindingly out. When I'm sitting in so called polite company and I want to just blurt out inappropriate things because I'm being hijacked by a bloody memory.

These thoughts, these intrusive thoughts can come at any time. You're sitting with friends in a situation completely unrelated, and suddenly the images come of being there with your mom.

Yes. Or the police arriving or being interrogated four times, or the fact that there was all this body camera footage or, you know, all the things that apart.

[Anderson Cooper]

And were very alive inside of me.

[Ashley Judd]

Until I completed this very rigorous and.

[Anderson Cooper]

Intensive series of emdr.

[Ashley Judd]

And then the grief came up and it was like such a relief just to grieve. And I actually had a re experience of the shock, which is the first stage of grief. A year after my mom had died, I would just be doing something, washing the dishes, you know, writing on my second book. And this wave of shock would overcome me as if I had just walked in the room again.

You told, I think, the New York Times, that after doing that, that you learned to kind of store your memories in a safe place, almost like they were located behind cellophane of a scrapbook page. Is that right?

Yeah. I mean, that's one of the ways I experienced the difference between grief and trauma.

[Anderson Cooper]

Trauma is bouncing around and jumping out.

[Ashley Judd]

At me behind a sofa, Whereas grief is in a scrapbook, like an old fashioned scrapbook in a photograph behind a page of cellophane stored on a bookshelf. And, you know, I'm in a pretty joyful place about my mom's death, which also needs to be shared and uplifted because my mom was this intensely curious person and she was so interested in.

[Anderson Cooper]

Neuroscience and neurocognition and the universe and the cosmos.

[Ashley Judd]

And she was buddies with Lisa Randall, who's this astrophysicist at Harvard. She knew Marvin Minsky, who was the original person who was exploring artificial intelligence. And these were just her friends. And people wouldn't associate Naomi Judd with these Nobel laureates per Se but my.

[Anderson Cooper]

Mom is now in the vastness of consciousness, in the mind of God.

[Ashley Judd]

What a great place for her to be.

[Anderson Cooper]

I'm thrilled for her. You know, all of these mysteries which.

[Ashley Judd]

Just made her daydream are now where her spirit resides. And so I'm having these conversations with her about how she's just with the mystery.

So you have conversations with your mom?

Yeah, a little sly, wink, wink, you know, a little riding back and forth.

It's one of the things that I've learned in talking to people that's really been helpful to me is this idea that you can still have a relationship with somebody who has died.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yes.

[Ashley Judd]

And in fact, that relationship can grow and change and morph. As I age, I to understand my father in a way I didn't before. As I have children of my own, I suddenly see my father and my mother in a different light because I understand more about their parenting and what.

They saw in me.

Do you find your relationship with your mom changes?

[Anderson Cooper]

I am finding that.

[Ashley Judd]

And I really encourage people to honor these small impulses.

[Anderson Cooper]

If a thought crosses the mind.

[Ashley Judd]

Pay attention to it. Consider it a nudge, perhaps from your loved one. You know, when I go to Walgreens, which is why where I buy all my greeting cards, I will stop and look at the cards from mothers to daughters, and I will pick out the one that I think mom would have chosen for me. I did that at Christmas. I do that on my birthday, and I pick out the one that I would have gotten for her for the holidays. I'll go to Walgreens and pick out the one for her birthday, which is on January 11th. And then I went on this kick recently where I wanted to talk to people who knew her, one of her last treating psychiatrists, and then a boyfriend she had in 1975 who was a Vietnam vet who became a peace activist and lived in the woods in Appalachia without running water or heat. And I just said, I gotta talk to this guy. He knew my mom in a way.

[Anderson Cooper]

That I never will.

[Ashley Judd]

You know, when I was being paid.

[Anderson Cooper]

10 cents to massage her feet when.

[Ashley Judd]

She got home from nursing school. And Dudon, who played the guitar for the Judds and created all those signature licks and songs like why Not Me? He was on the road with my mother and sister. And I want to talk to Dudon. And I did.

You wanted to see your mom through different eyes.

I just wanted to hear stories, dimensionality, personality, what was on her mind, what she was like, what they talked about. If she talked about me.

One of the things that.

[Anderson Cooper]

Sorry, I'm here, Anderson.

[Ashley Judd]

One of the things I found so hard about losing my brother to suicide was I get stuck in how his life ended and my shock over it and the realization that I didn't really know him. And I'm wondering if the manner of your mom's death made you question how much you knew her.

Thank you so much for sharing that. All our stories are sacred and I really honor the place in you that that's coming from. And I think we all deserve to be remembered for how we lived and how we died is simply part of a bigger story.

We're going to take a short break. More with Ashley Judd in a moment.

[Cleveland Clinic]

From all over the world, people turn to Cleveland Clinic for our expertise and our compassionate care as leaders in heart, neurology and cancer. The future of specialty care is happening right now at Cleveland Clinic. For every life saving treatment, for every next step, for every care in the.

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[Ashley Judd]

Welcome back to all.

[Anderson Cooper]

There is.

[Ashley Judd]

It is your mom's birthday coming up, January 11th. And I know on the first birthday that you had without her, you actually threw a party.

I threw a wonderful party for like 60 people. 60 people who knew and loved and adored Diana Ellen Judd.

[Anderson Cooper]

Naomi.

[Ashley Judd]

Yes. Yeah, it was wonderful. I was.

That must have been hard.

No, I don't.

Again, I guess it's just the nudge. I just, I don't know where the idea came from. It just bubbled up. And the next thing I Knew, there were 60 people at the house. You know, the amazing woman, Ms. Doris, who sewed mom's costumes, and Brent Mayer who produced all the Judds records, who had just beautiful stories about her. And we had fried chicken and biscuits and gravy and we just, you know, squeezed onto my sleeping porch and pulled.

[Anderson Cooper]

Up chairs and sat on the floor.

[Ashley Judd]

And laughed and cried and celebrated.

Do you still feel like you are grieving?

[Anderson Cooper]

Oh, I'm still grieving, yes. Yes.

[Ashley Judd]

But in different ways. And part of the way I'm grieving is that Mom's spirit is very alive to me.

[Anderson Cooper]

I mean, I did a little grieving day before yesterday.

[Ashley Judd]

We had Christmas and we had 18 people in a cabin in the Great Smoky Mountains. You know, all my chosen family. And one of the things we learned to do with mom was all, sit.

[Anderson Cooper]

Around and say, what is the one.

[Ashley Judd]

Memory you really want to make this holiday? What's something that if you didn't have the opportunity to do it, you would be disappointed.

[Anderson Cooper]

And for her, it was.

[Ashley Judd]

She always wanted to get a big picture of the family altogether, and so we do that. That's a tradition that is still carried.

[Anderson Cooper]

On as inspired by her.

[Ashley Judd]

So I'm grieving in that way, you know, by keeping her spirit and her traditions and her customs alive.

I spoke to President Biden about grief a few months ago, and there's a photograph of his son Beau, when he was a little boy. And he's turning to the camera and kind of waving. And one of the things he said is, that's the image that the president has in his mind's eye of his son, not the image of his son at the end of his life, not at the beginning of his life. And in that moment, I'm wondering, is there a. An image you carry of your mom in your head?

Mm. Well, now you've got me. My turn to weep. So mom and I, and Pop and I are neighbors in rural Tennessee, and we're stoppers by. So just stop by, stop by, stop by. And, you know, mom would stop by, and she would always have these plastic bags. And at first, years ago, when this started, I would be a little aggravated because I recycle. You know, I would see, like, why.

[Anderson Cooper]

Is she bringing these unnecessary plastic items into my house?

[Ashley Judd]

And I thought, you know what? She's letting me know that she's thinking about me on aisle four, that I'm always on her mind. That's what this is about, you know? And I began to see everything that she brought into that house as precious. And then when I would go to their house, I always went around the side of the house to the back porch, and I never had on shoes. And the side of the house in the back are walda, floor to ceiling glass.

[Anderson Cooper]

And she would be on her sofa.

[Ashley Judd]

Where she stayed because of the Depression. But when she saw me, she would get up. Invariably she got up, no matter how.

[Anderson Cooper]

Sick she was, and she would light.

[Ashley Judd]

Up, and she would come to the back door and open it, and she would exclaim, there's my darling.

[Anderson Cooper]

There's my girl.

[Ashley Judd]

There's my baby.

[Anderson Cooper]

And that's how I see my mom.

[Ashley Judd]

I read that she used to call you Sweet Pea. Is that right?

[Anderson Cooper]

She did call me Sweet Pea.

[Ashley Judd]

And I still sign my cards to pop. Sweet Pea. I am not letting go of that one. I'm keeping that One for life.

My mom left little notes among her things because she knew I'd be the one going through them all. Have you gone through your mom's stuff?

I've gone through some of it and I have.

[Anderson Cooper]

I'm blessed to have an attic.

[Ashley Judd]

So I have a lot of things in the attic. I have her hairbrush, and I have.

[Anderson Cooper]

That sitting out with some of her hair in it.

[Ashley Judd]

And I have all her pajamas folded in my closet with my pajamas.

Do you wear them?

I haven't worn them yet, but I will.

[Anderson Cooper]

I will.

[Ashley Judd]

I wear her pants. I have some of her fancy dresses and coats and things which I look forward to wearing. And I have a lot of her things and everything has folded Kleenex in the pockets, and I just leave those and I pull them out and I sort of wave them. And, you know, everybody knows that I'm wearing something of my mom's if I've got a folded Kleenex.

She was always the go to person for a folded Kleenex.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yeah.

[Ashley Judd]

And she often had a half a tuna salad sandwich in her bra.

You know, she just.

That's how she rolled in her bra. She was funny. She was funny.

And was that for herself or to offer to others?

Well, she always fed her children. She would always offer some for us. And I've been through some of her daytimers, you know, and look down at what she wrote on our birthdays and. Yeah, but that notebook with her songwriting is very precious, you know, her first ever songs and, you know, she went on to receive many accolades and won Grammys for songwriting. And these are just her initial forays in 74 and 75. And they're beautiful. They're beautiful.

[Anderson Cooper]

Some of them are like psalms.

[Ashley Judd]

Between.

Your heart and mine Love can feel average don't you think it's time? Don't you think it's time?

There's one other song I just want to play. It's Guardian Angels.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yeah.

[Ashley Judd]

About my great grandparents. My triple great grandparents.

When I'm really troubled and I don't know what to do Many whispers Just do your best. We're awful proud of you. They're my guardian I know they can see Every step I take they are watching over me.

Such a great song.

[Anderson Cooper]

Thank you. Thank you, Anderson.

[Ashley Judd]

Love that.

[Anderson Cooper]

Life.

[Ashley Judd]

The pathos.

I received more than a thousand calls at the end of the last season of this podcast, and I listened to all of them. 46 hours of people's calls. And people spoke about grief in so many different ways and so many different kinds of grief. And one of the kinds of grief people spoke about is the grief for somebody who is still alive, but who is suffering a mental illness or who's suffering an addiction or alcoholism. And so there's a lot of people listening who. Who are in this situation right now. And I'm wondering what you would say to them about that grief of seeing a loved one suffer, and yet how do you navigate that?

I would say there's always help and hope for friends and families, and we have the right to lead our own lives with dignity and wellness and pleasure. And we're not betraying our loved ones by pursuing a good life for ourselves when they are sick and suffering. You know, my mother took so much pleasure in the goodness of my life, and she was so tremendously proud of me and my social activism, my advocacy, my voice, it. It gave her so much delight. I am responsible for my own life. And if that means I'm responsible for my own life, it also means that other adults are responsible for their own lives. And I can walk beside them, but I can't get inside their skin and live it and do it for them. And I can have compassion and say, I see you.

[Anderson Cooper]

I hear you.

[Ashley Judd]

Is there something I can do to.

[Anderson Cooper]

Support you right now, but to understand that that support should not go so.

[Ashley Judd]

Far, enabling them, you know, to love them but not do for them what.

[Anderson Cooper]

They can and should do for themselves.

[Ashley Judd]

And it's very fine work.

[Anderson Cooper]

It's like being a fine mechanic on a Swiss watch.

[Ashley Judd]

You know, how to sit with my mom and know that she really wants a pill that's going to fix it. When I think that she needs to go to detox. Right. Which at certain times she did. Or I think that a good stay in behavioral health, which we also know is the psych unit under expert care, might be beneficial. But her PTSD is getting in the way, and she's too scared to surrender to that kind of care. And I have to respect her autonomy, even though I have medical power of.

[Anderson Cooper]

Attorney and could sign her in, you.

[Ashley Judd]

Know, but then how do I handle.

[Anderson Cooper]

My disappointment, my anxiety, my sense of loss? Those things are my responsibility.

[Ashley Judd]

You know, this distinction between enabling what I'm really doing for someone, what they can and should do for themselves, and giving encouragement and understanding can be acquired. But we have to look for our teachers, you know, and those can be.

[Anderson Cooper]

Found in 12 step programs.

[Ashley Judd]

It can be found in a good therapist. It can be found in a lot of recovery literature.

Do you feel, like, the grief that you feel over your mom, that. That will be with you always. Is it something that just ebbs and flows? Is it something that morphs with time and becomes something different but is always there?

I think it will be a journey of discovery. I think it will be a journey of discovery because there are many things I haven't done yet. I haven't been ready to look at pictures yet.

Photographs.

Family photographs.

[Anderson Cooper]

Yeah, family photographs.

[Ashley Judd]

I've seen a few, but I haven't really looked thoroughly, intensively at pictures yet. Pictures of her in recent years before her death, you know, she was in Austria with Pop before she died. She came back on Friday and she died on Saturday. And she was having a mixed experience in Austria. She was having a really good time. And also she texted me, my brain hurts. And so I haven't looked at the pictures from Austria. I haven't looked at, you know, the holiday pictures from the previous years. And, yeah, I think it's going to be just the walk, the walk of my life as I. As I reflected, now I'm in this kind of yummy place of just enjoying the mirth, of knowing that she's with.

[Anderson Cooper]

This vast consciousness and that she knows the mystery now.

[Ashley Judd]

And that just delights me.

One of the things I'm very grateful for in terms of my mom's death, who died at 95, was that there was really nothing left unsaid between us. And I'm wondering, do you feel that with your mom? Because, I mean, the road you had have been on with her, I mean, it's an extraordinarily winding and torturous at times and beautiful at times. Road.

You know, I hadn't really thought about that, Anderson. And I think that my mom and I were pretty complete.

[Anderson Cooper]

I mean, we talked about a lot of stuff.

[Ashley Judd]

We were emotionally quite intimate. And the one ache that I had for my mom was that I know that toward the end, what ended up becoming the end of her life, she.

[Anderson Cooper]

Was feeling some guilt and shame about.

[Ashley Judd]

Her parenting, even though all was forgiven very clearly on my part. You know, I made my amends to her, which is what really instigated the healing in our relationship. I did that in 2008 for the Rage that I had carried as an adult, which really opened the floodgates to a very deep bonding between us. And she spontaneously made her amends to me as well. She shared this story about how one Easter when we lived in Marin county, she couldn't afford a turkey and she bought a chicken and she told sister and me that it was a turkey, as if we knew the difference. I was in the Third grade, and she was just. She had so much shame about that. And I remember feeling like, I wish I could have just lifted that shame out of her, but that has to be an inside job. Although I look back on it and I wish I'd maybe said a little more or done a little something like patted her leg or given her a hug or a kiss on the cheek and just expressed a little bit more of the compassion that I was feeling inside. So that feels like a little piece of unfinished business. And I did address that on her deathbed when I was saying, let it all go. Let it. Don't take anything with you. That's what I meant. It was that moment I was referring to and any guilt or shame that she was feeling about her parenting.

I read this quote earlier, and I just. I didn't read the entire quote, but it gets to what you're saying, which was you had said I was powerless over my childhood. The survival strategies I developed made my adult life unmanageable. When I took responsibility for those survival strategies, my relationships with both my parents transformed and healed 100%. That's what made the difference.

Absolutely. That made the difference. That was the catapult.

And when you.

When you. It was the catalyst and the catapult.

When you said you took responsibility for those survival strategies, what does that mean?

Well, I did my anger work, and what that looks like is, you know.

[Anderson Cooper]

Kicking and screaming and fighting and yelling and.

[Ashley Judd]

And telling all the perpetrators to get off of me and all that kind of stuff and writing and drawing and, you know, just getting it out because it lives in the very cells of our bodies, moving it out experientially of my body and, you know, so I quit taking my anger out on my parents. I became able to hold complexity and to have a tense conversation without blowing up or leaving the room or, you know, getting sideways.

So that was the change. Sort of recognizing the little child, the stuff that was from the little child, and being able to work on that and figure out a way to amend those survival strategies.

Yes, yes. And know what was the core pain from childhood and work on that separately and what was showing up as an adult.

Well, Ashley, thank you so much for. Is there anything else you'd want to say?

Oh, just thank you so much for.

[Anderson Cooper]

Being you and bless you on your.

[Ashley Judd]

Journey and just keep trudging, Keep trudging, and I appreciate the opportunity to be with you, and I'm so thankful that we're in this community of grievers together.

It is the strange thing about grief is that it feels so alone and yet it is this experience which everybody has gone through or will go through, and yet it still feels so lonely.

No one can do it for us. We do not have to do it alone.

Ashley Judd, thank you so much.

Peace be with you.

If you or someone you love is struggling, help is available in the US you can call or text the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. Ashley also had some suggestions you can check out if you're interested. One is a website, grief.com, another is the Loving Parent Guidebook and a third is another book opening our hearts, transforming our losses.

[Anderson Cooper]

We'll have an all new episode of the podcast next week. Wherever you are in the world and in your grief, I hope you know you're not alone.

[Ashley Judd]

All there is is a production of CNN Audio. The show is produced by Grace Walker and Dan Bloom. Our senior producer is Hayley Thomas, Dan Dezzulla is our technical director and Steve Lichtai is our Executive producer. Support from Nick Godsell, Ben Evans, Chuck Haddad, Charlie Moore, Carrie Rubin, Carrie Pritchard, Shimree Chetrit, Ronald Bettis, Alex Manaseri, Robert Mathers, John Deonnora, Lainey Steinhardt, Jamis Andrest.

[Cleveland Clinic]

From all over the world, people turn to Cleveland Clinic for our expertise and our compassionate care as leaders in heart, neurology and cancer. The future of specialty care is happening right now at Cleveland Clinic. For every life saving treatment, for every next step, for every care in the.

[Ashley Judd]

World, Cleveland Clinic Nicole Pesaru and Lisa Namorow Special thanks to Wendy Brundage.

[Anderson Cooper]

Thanks for listening to this episode of all there is with Anderson Cooper. You can hear new episodes every week on Amazon Music as well as your other favorite CNN podcasts.