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- [00:02]
Chanel Jones
Apro vecha los ahoros de Memorial Day in los y compra los vasicos parelo gar pormenos ahoro centadolares en la parria gas de cuatro que madores char broil Performance series.
- [00:32]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
Welcome to all there is. Wherever you are in the world and in your grief, I'm glad you're here. You're not alone. It's been a bittersweet week for me. I finished my last story at 60 Minutes after more than 20 years there. I left because I wanted to spend more time with my two little boys, Wyatt and Sebastian. But it's hard to leave a job that you've always loved. The good news is that it makes it easier for me to do more of these podcasts, which I'm grateful for. My guest on this episode is Chanel Jones. In January, she began hosting along with Jenna Bush Hager Today with Jenna and Chanel, the fourth hour of the Today Show. In May 2025, Chanel's husband, Uche O.J. died from glioblastoma. They met when they were in college and have three kids, a 16 year old and 13 year old twins. Chanel has a new book, out Through Mom's Eyes, which is full of life lessons and stories from the mothers of well known, highly accomplished people. But our conversation is about the loss of Uche and Chanel's grandmother who died seven months later at the end of 2025. Thank you for doing this.
- [01:37]
Chanel Jones
You have been, and I mean this so sincerely, the soundtrack to my healing you, along with all of the people that you've talked with, when you hear other people share it, is healing. And you don't feel as isolated, you feel less al. And so I feel like you've created this beautiful quilt of like nurturing our hearts. And so I am honored to be part of this quilt.
- [02:00]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
It is, it's still so recent, so recent.
- [02:03]
Chanel Jones
And the truth of the matter is, after he was diagnosed, I still thought he would beat it. Like, you couldn't tell me that he wasn't going to beat it. It was just a matter of finding which trial or something. But I knew that he was going to beat it. Even though all the evidence was very clear, I still didn't believe it. The first time the doctors recommended hospice, I said no. I wanted him to be able to be home. He wanted to be home. And I was like, I'll do it. He's big now, he's strong. And I was trying to do all the things, you know, lifting and all the Things, and we have a lot of stairs. So that became a bit of a challenge. And I did it for maybe two or three months on my own. There are people who do this for years. And anyone listening, if you are a caretaker, God bless you.
- [02:51]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
I just did a interview with a woman who has a very aggressive form of brain cancer, and she's trying to prepare her kids. I saw her story, and she's writing letters to her kids for the future. My mom's dad died when she was 15 months old, and she had this fantasy her entire life that he had left her some letter somewhere that might arrive in the mail. And I sort of had that fantasy from my dad as well.
- [03:16]
Chanel Jones
I tried. I tried. It was the only time things got a little. Because if I say, hey, I think you should write something for the kids, that means that I think you're not gonna make it. And there was one point where I said, why don't you write it? And then at our daughter's wedding, we'll read it and we'll show that you're still here. And I think for him to write it would have been accepting that maybe it wasn't gonna go that way, his way. And I don't think he was willing to do that. And I think by the time he was like, okay, maybe. I think it was probably too late. Towards the end, I started videotaping everything, whereas before I didn't. He also played a lot of instruments. My son plays a lot of instruments. And so he would come in, and my son would be playing the guitar, and I would show him playing the guitar and show my husband's face and the pride that he would have when Kyan was playing the guitar. Or my daughter's in music theater, and she's Matilda. I would come and show him, and then I would record him being proud. And even now, I have so much that I haven't given them yet, because I think it's, like, in doses, I can only handle so much. So I know that they can only handle so much.
- [04:23]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
I mean, how do you do this with kids?
- [04:25]
Chanel Jones
As a mom, it's tough because you don't want to make them sad. I have three teenagers, you know, so we're all in one chat, and there'll be times where I'll be tempted to be like, oh, my gosh, this crossed my feet. But then I'm like that. Like, what if they're leaving school and they get it? Or what if they're with their friends? You know, so there's a tap dance as their mom Allowing us all to be vulnerable. And there's a time and a space for us to reflect and also a time for them to show we can't move on. We can move forward with that. I think the biggest pain I carry now, and I am not even to a year, the biggest pain I have is not my own. And trust me, like, he's all I've known. I didn't date. I was 19. You know, it's not my pain. It's that I can't fix it. As a mother, you just want to fix it. Your kids, you don't want them to hurt. I can't fix this. And I think when he passed, the blow that it was and the grief and all of it, like, as the mama bear, for me not to be able to fix it even now is excruciating. It's excruciating that I can't take that pain away, that they have to learn how to deal with it and wrestle with it and hold it and make it make sense. And so I'm left trying to figure out how to nurture their hearts. There aren't a lot of resources and conversations and things like this, but it's part of the reason why I'm willing to sit and have this conversation, because I couldn't find it. I joked with Savannah that I went to YouTube and googled black Widow and I got spiders. It was true. I remember I was by myself, and I'm like, okay, who's been in this position before? And I knew I had to deal with it publicly, so I was like, okay, who am I going to be? I found videos of Jackie Kennedy, and I remember watching her and being like, oh, my God, how did she. She looks like she has so much grace and poise. Like, how. And then I looked up, like, Coretta Scott King, and I'm like, every time I close my eyes, and I pictured those women. They always had such grace. I told my friend that, and he's like, I love Duce, but he was not Martin Luther K. Or jfk. And I'm like, I know, but you know what I mean? You know, I was trying to find out who I wanted to be. I think I mentioned it to Maria Shriver, who is like one of my TV aunties, like my Mount Rushmore of aunties. And she said, you can only be you can.
- [06:40]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
Your kids talk about it now? Do you tell stories about it all over the house?
- [06:44]
Chanel Jones
We have one of those digital picture frames. But you know what's starting to rattle me a little bit is that they're all current pictures within the last couple years of the surfing and the soccer games and the weddings and the holidays. And it's beautiful montage. But what's starting to rattle me is that as we move with each passing day, he stays the same. And I know that the kids are gonna get older. And so the frames are there and everything is there, and the pictures are there. And right now, we're all still the same. But it's hard because it sucks that he didn't get to. Feels like not a fair shot to keep going. So I wrestle with it sometimes, keeping those things out, but then I'm like, no, we're gonna keep them out. We're gonna keep the pictures up. We're gonna still talk about it. And I had to learn how to parent differently because I am not him. And he was strict, you know, And I'm like, eh. So I've had to find that. I remember early on I said something like, your dad would not. And then I realized what I was saying, and I don't know. There's no template for this. Should I not have done that? Your father would have never. Or is it, you know, better? Your father would have never. I don't know. And so I'm kind of living it in real time how I want to parent. And there are some things, though, that I can't. And so I've learned to ask for help. I don't know how to play soccer. Our first vacation was horrible. A woman I met whose husband also had glioblastoma. She warned me, be careful with the first trip after he passes. Maybe bring someone or bring some cousins or something. And I did not listen. And it was horrible. They looked at an ocean and there's no one to surf with. So now I've learned I bring cousins or I bring people. I'm still trying to figure out how to mother. You know what? I was looking forward to heartbreak. Like, that was gonna suck. And I was gonna have to be like, have some chocolate. Sit down. He's a jerk. Not this kind of heartbreak. And not only are your hearts breaking, but so is mine.
- [08:46]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
We're going to take a short break. Coming up, I talk with Chanel about the loss of her grandmother seven months after Uche died.
- [08:53]
Chanel Jones
I've been grieving for so long that I don't think I have truly grieved her. Because then it's too much.
- [09:05]
Derek Van Dam
Finding a source you can trust for weather forecasts should be easy, right? This is CNN meteorologist Derek Van Dam, thrilled to introduce the new CNN weather app. Check your daily forecast to plan your day, the weekly forecast to see what's on the way and prepare for any major storm. With our robust real time video coverage. The app is stunning. And if you're a weather nerd like me, you'll love our in depth stories and the photo of the day. Download the CNN weather app on iOS today.
- [09:37]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
Welcome back to my conversation with Chanel Jones.
- [09:40]
Chanel Jones
I was sitting on a beach in Jamaica and my girlfriend was like, it's okay to cry. I think it was the first time I had just, like, really let it go. And I just said, where are you? Like, where are you? Like, are you okay? Where are you? And all of a sudden, and we are in the middle of the ocean. It was like this rock and we took a picture of it and here comes this yellow butterfly. And we both went and we were like. And then it. And she was like, is that you, Uche? And I said, oh, my God, stop it. And she's like, no, just if it's you or if it's like anything that Chanel needs to know, like, just let her know that you're okay. Can you come back? I said, mia, a butterfly is not coming back. And sure enough, we're like. And I was like, oh, my God. And to this every day, everywhere I go, when I allow myself and I need it, I see one and I'm like, how you can see a yellow butterfly in Harlem, I don't know, but I see them. So he finds me. And I think it's because I've allowed myself to open my heart to it.
- [10:43]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
You said somewhere that you felt like you've had to keep running. I certainly know that feeling very well and have done that for most of my life. Do you feel like you are grieving?
- [10:53]
Chanel Jones
I am a walking ball of grief. It's like when I tell you I hold two things, I know who I want to be. And so the woman I want to be has joy. The woman I want to be continues to do new things and experience new things. But she's hurting and her heart is so heavy. And so in order to do that, I guess I'm just going to have to bring it with me and carry them both. And I used to feel in the days after he passed and before I returned to work that I was afraid of grief. It was, like, scary. I wanted it to go away, get out of my life and go away. But now I see it differently. I see grief now as, like this beautiful stream that I have around me. And so I go to the stream when I want to remember, I go to the stream. When I want to reflect, I go to the stream when I want to think about him. And it's peaceful, and it loves me back. It holds the things that I love. I choose not to put the pain part in it. I'm still working on that part. I'm sure it will always hurt, but I would like to work on that piece. And so when I tell you that I carry two things and I'm a walking ball of grief, it doesn't mean that I'm crying all the time. It just means I go to my stream a lot.
- [12:05]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
Do you see joy as the opposite of grief?
- [12:07]
Chanel Jones
No, I don't. I think it is all part of this complicated life that we don't understand. You know, when you grow up in the church, and there's an answer for everything, so the answer is faith. And then I got to be 47, and the guy I've been with since I was 19 died. So then it's like, oh, okay, what do I really believe? What do I really think about this? And so I've had to really dig deep and think about how I wrestle with it, because, frankly, up until this point, you know, it's been pretty great. Life's not perfect, but for the most part, I've been able to make it make sense. This is the first thing that I can't really make it make sen. I used to worry that I wouldn't be able to laugh again or I wouldn't have my joy. And, oh, my God, I'm gonna cry. But they dance together. My joy is heightened because I know how precious it is to be able to have the good moments. And so something is funny. It's freaking funny. If something is sad, it's really sad. This for me, even though I'm talking about something that is awful, this is joy for me because it's a beautiful conversation, and I hope we can do a lot of good. I talked about not being able to find me, even people of color, young girls, like, there just aren't a lot of. And we hurt, too. And I just don't see us. I think culturally, we're taught to be the strong ones and the strong women, and we're the bedrock. And so as hard as it is for a lot of people to grieve, I realized that I have layers that I didn't even know that I had that make it harder to be vulnerable or to allow myself to have this pain. There's a cultural thing. There's a generational Thing. I looked to my grandmother when she lost my grandpa. They've been married for 69 years and she's a pillar in Wichita where I grew up. And he was. And when things are hard, I would. We'd be out to dinner. You know what happens after we eat. And I'm like, woo, let's get up. My mom and my grandmother are taking out their lipstick. They're opening the thing. We're this. We're not this.
- [14:12]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
Your grandmother just died.
- [14:13]
Chanel Jones
Yeah. Didn't see it coming. She was so proud of me. She was the first woman of color on the school board in my hometown. Tough cookie. She used to smoke. She'd have her long silver hair. She'd have it in a bun like she was that. And I remember one time she had someone, a sinus situation in her like 80s or 70s, and I was the only one with her. And I was holding her nose cause it was bleeding. And I remember her looking at me and seeing the fear in my eyes. She stopped cold turkey that day. Never smoked again. She was a classically trained pianist born in St. Louis. My grandfather was one of the only African American physicians in my town. And his father was a physician. So I come from like excellence, Black excellence as they call it. And my grandfather ended up being this huge part of our lives. And my grandmother ran for the school board and they were just this huge force. And when he died, she didn't even want to go. She was like, no, not going. And then somebody said, go get Chanel. I went in there and I looked at her and I'm like, you gotta at his service. We were like holding onto each other. And even when Uche passed, she hadn't been on a plane 20 years, but she was there. And there's the picture. I have the last picture. Oh my God, it is the last picture. I didn't realize that till right now. The last picture I have of the two of us. She was wiping my face. Come on, get it together. You got this. She started a huge choir. It's called Arise. It stands for African Americans Renewing Interest in Spiritualist Ensemble.
- [15:41]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
I filmed this video on that. I just want to play a little bit of it.
- [15:44]
Chanel Jones
Oh, you're going to get me doing the ugly cry.
- [15:56]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
I picked an upbeat part.
- [15:58]
Chanel Jones
Thanks. And that he has the whole world in his hands. See how she's moving and dancing and oh my God. They used to say, if you can't sing, Joe Brown is gonna get it out of you. Look at her.
- [16:13]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
I love it.
- [16:34]
Chanel Jones
Where's my tissue? And she'd say, sing now.
- [16:49]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
I love it.
- [17:16]
Chanel Jones
Oh, my goodness gracious. The folks and churches are all right now.
- [17:22]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
That's amazing. That's amazing.
- [17:24]
Chanel Jones
That is who I am. I grew up listening to all of those songs and, you know, Negro spirituals, which is what they are. And she used to always tell me the stories of negro spirituals. When black folks were down, this is what they would sing. They would sing these songs to get themselves back up. And she would say, we come from good stock, honey. That's what she would say. And so now I am pulling on all of those things that she poured into me. And what I also realized is I grieved Uche for so long, and I'm sure somebody will know if this is a term I don't know. But, like, I pre grieved too, because, you know it's coming. Even though I was in denial. And then I grieved Uche. And so I've been grieving for so long that I don't think I have truly grieved her, because then it's too much. Everybody's like, oh, you're so strong and you're there for your kids and all of the things. And grieving him has been so much. And so with her, I've had to, like, tuck it just a little bit. Like, I can feel it. But, like, if I allow myself to truly explore, you know, what she means to me, I might have to take a personal date tomorrow. You may not see Jenna and Chanel, but what happens is. Do I have my phone? I'm gonna share something with you. It's my screensaver on my phone. So when I was at my grandmother's funeral, I was like, that was when they put her over my grandpa.
- [19:06]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
Wow.
- [19:07]
Chanel Jones
It was a cloudy day, the sun came in, it was dark just for that moment. And I was sitting there and I just happened to have my phone. And then when they put her over him, I was like. And I, like, took a picture of the sky, and then I put it down. And now it's been my screensaver ever since because this tells me that she's okay, she's okay, she's okay. She's with grandpapa.
- [19:31]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
There's a song that Jenna, your co host, sent to you.
- [19:34]
Chanel Jones
It's called Brighter days by a Nigerian artist. His name is Blessing Offer. And I didn't know it then, but he is from the same tribe as my husband. But I was having a really tough time, and I loved it. And so fast forward to me getting the job on Jenna and Chanel and they surprised me and they said, hey, the guy that sang that song, we booked him for the show February 4th. And I went, I said, do you know the significance of that day? And they said, no. I said, that's Uche's birthday. Then I felt all emotional. And the one thing about Uche, he's a proud Nigerian. Right. Moved here when he was 14, but like, proud. And was always trying to get these Nigerian artists on the show. And so when he came on and he sang that song through my tears, it was like, you got him, you got somebody.
- [20:22]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
I just want to play a little. Brighter days
- [20:27]
Blessing Offer
oh never live through times like these oh if you're trying hard to be Breathe in the dark in the dark I know there's going to be some brighter days I swear that love will find you in your pain I feel it in me like the beating of life in my vein I know there's going to be be some
- [21:02]
Chanel Jones
brighter day how beautiful is that? The part that resonated with me was about love finding you in the dark. Because that's when it's hardest, right? Kids are sleeping, show's over. All the things, it's all gone. And at night you're left with just you and for me in the king size bed where he's not there. And that to me is the hardest part. And so for love to find me in the dark, it's like, please. So that song just continues to speak to me in new ways.
- [21:34]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
You wake up really early in the morning to do your show and you've always had to tiptoe in the dark in the morning so as not to wake up your husband. And you had a realization recently.
- [21:46]
Chanel Jones
I could turn the lights on. It was my first day back on the air. I was like tipping around in the dark and then I was like, you're not there. And I remember turning on the lights and then looking over there and like sometimes he would be like, oh, he would put the sheet over his head. Yeah. So I'm so torn. And because I'm still new in it, there's a part of me that sees the beauty. And I'm proud of myself for how I'm able to wrap my mind around it. I do see beauty in being able to have these conversations. I feel like I have been able to get a special key. And the key comes at a cost. And when you have this grief key, it unlocks the door to a club that you're in and that I'm in and others are in. And it allows us to be in this special matrix of, I think, understanding and clarity, or at least the recognition that we're in a search for it. And it's just really a beautiful way to live life because it's almost like you have another sense that's built into it. So I think that's a beautiful thing. But if you ask me if I want that key, like, at what cost? I'm torn on it and I'm okay with it. For me, it sucks, but I'm almost 50, so I feel like I'm halfway through. What's hard to hear in that is what my kids now have to carry. Then as a mom, I'm like, oh, I hate that my kids have to deal with that. My little guy said one time we were in the kitchen, my 13 year old son, he goes, mommy, I see things as like, bcad. And I'm like, yeah, that's how. And he goes, no, no. Before cancer, after death. And I was like, whoa. And I see my life that way too. So I'm trying to learn how to embrace Chanel 2.0. I grieved her two days before I went back on the air. I said, okay, I've grieved uche. I've grieved all the things. I'm going to take two days before I go back on the air to grieve the me that I loved. Because she's gone. There are parts of me that are still gone.
- [23:48]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
The person you were.
- [23:49]
Chanel Jones
Yeah, she's. I liked her. She worked really hard. She drew a picture of herself as a newslady in fifth grade on a yellow sheet of construction paper with helmet hair and hoop earrings.
- [24:00]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
Like, and you told your grandmother in fifth grade?
- [24:02]
Chanel Jones
Yeah. And she was like, ooh, I could see you being a reporter. I've worked so hard to get this. And so I had to grieve her because she's changed. And so now I am getting to know the new me. And there are parts about her that I think she's a badass. And I really, I like her, I respect her, but I'm still getting to know her.
- [24:25]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
I always ask everybody in the podcast, is there something you've learned in your grief that would be helpful for others?
- [24:30]
Chanel Jones
I think it's important if you're willing, and you certainly don't have to be, but to either share or to do what I did, I would every day on the train to hospice. I was listening to you, but just something to heal your heart and just not to shut yourself out. It's important not to tuck it. It's so easy to go down this, like dark grief hole and it's like you can't breathe. My prayer is that this conversation and things like that will at least just be an oxygen mask. It can be very lonely. Just know that you're not alone and you're going to be okay. They would want you to be okay.
- [25:06]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
Thank you so much. If you have thoughts you'd like to share about my conversation with Chanel or about your own experiences with grief, we'd love to hear from you. You can leave a comment@cnn.com allthereis or leave us a voicemail at 404-827-1805. You can watch Chanel weekdays on the fourth hour of the Today Show, Today with Jenna and Chanel. Her new book, Through Mom's Eyes is available now. Also, it features life lessons and stories from celebrities moms that she's interviewed on the Today show. On Thursday, May 28, we'll be bringing you another new episode of the podcast. It's my conversation with actress Mariska Hargitay, star of law and svu. Her mom was a very famous movie star in the 50s and 60s, Jayne Mansfield, and she died in a car crash when Mariska was three years old. Mariska was in the car when her mom was killed and has felt the echoes of that loss and grief her whole life.
- [26:00]
Mariska Hargitay
Something has always been missing and there was always just this incredible sadness. And I remember when I was in grade school, they'd have the mommy daughter tea or something like that. And I used to be so sad when I would look at other little girls that looked like their mom. And it was such a primitive need to look like someone, look like your mom. But also for me, it was the double whammy because as a child I did always feel separate. I just did. I was kind of like on this island by myself my whole life.
- [26:40]
Host (likely a CNN podcast host)
My conversation with Mirska Hargitay comes out Thursday, May 28th. You can also check out recent episodes of All There Is Live, my streaming show that's a companion to this podcast. If you've never watched it before, it has a lot of very moving interviews with podcast listeners about the losses they've experienced. You can check that out at Our grief page, cnant.comAllTheRis thanks for listening.