A (0:01)

Before we get started, we wanted to take a minute to ask for your help. I personally am so grateful for the Ascension Press team in producing this podcast and making it available to thousands of people across the world. Since 2014, Ascension has been creating free Catholic YouTube videos, podcasts like this one, All Things Catholic, and articles to help people like you discover the truth and beauty of the Catholic faith. Ascension releases 18 free videos and podcasts every week and has reached millions of people with the message of God's love. While this content is free to consume, it's not free to make. So to help offset the increasing costs of production, we're asking for financial support to continue bringing this life changing content to people who are searching for Christ. So if you or someone you know have personally benefited from Ascension's work, please consider financially supporting this podcast. Any amount is truly appreciated and will go toward things like The Ascension Presents YouTube channel, the Bible in the Year, and the All Things Catholic podcast. So to make a gift, please visit ascensionpress.com support or click the link in the description. Again, that's ascensionpress.com support and whether you're able to support us financially or not, please keep us and the entire Ascension team in your prayers.

B (1:20)

Hi, I'm Edward Sri and welcome to All Things Catholic, where real faith meets real life. God made people beautiful and surely he wants us to appreciate their beauty. So what's the difference between an innocent interest in someone's physical appearance and a lustful thought? And how do I know if I've crossed that line? That's we're gonna take a look at in this week's podcast. So welcome to All Things Catholic. I'm your host, Edward Sri, and in my work I do a lot of teaching on relationships, dating, engagement, marriage, and I wrote a whole book on this topic called Men, Women and the Mystery Love. It's probably the book I, over the years have received the most feedback from, especially from young adults around the world. And I'm really excited to share some news with you. Ascension Press is the new publisher of this book. I received some emails from some of you earlier this fall where you're having trouble finding the book. There are many people looking for the book, whether they use it for a youth group or a Catholic school or a young adult ministry. And they're having trouble finding it. And that's because the original publisher, my friends at Franciscan Media, they ended up closing their publishing division. So it was tricky to find the book for a couple months. But I want everybody to know it's in print. You can still get it. Just go to ascensionpress.com I'm so excited. Ascension is going to be taking that over. In fact, we're going to be doing a number of videos related to the book as well. So you can pray for that project and you can check it out there at Ascension Press. Now, one of the topics that I cover in this book is related to the idea of lustful thoughts. And how do I know if I'm really falling into a lustful thought? There's one thing to just admire someone's beauty, to have a certain interest in their good looks, their physical features. And then there's a lustful thought. What's the difference? How do we cross the line? How do we keep our thoughts pure and holy? I want to talk about that here today. But first of all, John Paul II emphasizes that sensual desire is not a bad thing. God gave us sensual desire. It's for our good. So when we happen to notice the body, the physical features of another person, their good looks, that's a good thing. That just means we're functioning well. This is the way God made us. He wired us this way. And the sensual desire that we have when we are drawn physically to someone else, that's meant to draw us not just to that person's body, but to an encounter with that person, the person themselves. And so, again, the physical attraction is meant to lead to a more personal attraction, a personal union. The challenge is when sensuality becomes primary. When we make that central, it falls into lust. And that's when we reduce that person to just a body. We reduce them to a body because a person is more than a body. Right? Even though Ed Sheeran says, I'm in love with your body in his famous song, we desire to be loved for more than just our body. A woman longs to be loved for who she is, not just her body. And what happens when we fall into lust is that we reduce that person just to a body, just to an object for us to exploit for our own sexual satisfaction with our actions or even in our thoughts, that we can even use them in our thoughts. And at this point, some people might object and say, oh, come on, what's the big deal? You know, what's going on in my head doesn't really matter. So if I look at someone lustfully and have a lustful thought, what's the big deal? That's a private matter. I'm not hurting anybody. I can look. I just can't touch. That's what some people might say. But John Paul II would invite us to consider how it's still a kind of use that a man can view a woman not as a person, as a beloved daughter of God, as a sister in Christ, not viewing her as a person, but just as a body. And a body that's just an object for my enjoyment. I'm just exploiting this body for my own sensual pleasure. In my glances, in my memory, in my thoughts, in my imagination. Now here's the beautiful insight John Paul II brings in. And I've never seen anyone else quite map this out like he does in his wonderful work Love and Responsibility. Which, by the way, my book, Men, Women, the Mystery of Love is not my own ideas. I should mention that at the beginning that it's really a reflection on JP2's foundational work called Love and Responsibility. While many people talk a lot about theology of the body, and that's awesome, and I teach that too. Love and Responsibility is more foundational. It's more immediately applicable to dating, relationships, friendships with the opposite sex, marriage. It changes the way you interact with the opposite sex. So it's an amazing work on the foundations for authentic love. And he does have a whole section where he maps out the idea of what's happening on our inside. That we could look at someone lustfully and how that harms our relationship. It hinders our ability to love other people. But how do we get there? So JB2 maps out. There's three key stages, three stages that lead ultimately toward a lustful thought. The first stage is just what he calls a spontaneous sensual reaction. This is when just something happens on the outside. You know, a man shows up at a party, he meets a certain woman, notices her physical features, he's captivated by her good looks, and he finds himself drawn to her throughout the evening. Is this a problem? Is there anything sinful going on here? Well, no, not necessarily. It just means he's a normal, functioning human being. In other words, this man encounters her beautiful physical appearance and he has the proper response. An initial sensual reaction stirs up within him. He notices the physical features as an object of interest. And this isn't necessarily lost. It's not sinful. Remember, God made us with this sensual desire. And so the sensual desire is meant to lead not just to the body of the person, but to the person herself. And so at this stage, you know, he met her, he. He notices her, finds himself physically attracted to her. He's interested in her good looks, like that. That's. This is just a spontaneous sensual reaction, nothing sinful. The challenge is we can quickly fall into the second stage, what JP2 calls sensual concupiscence. I'll explain what this means here. He says, because of our fallenness, because we have original sin, we're wounded. It's not easy for us to stay at the first stage. It's not easy for us just to stay at that level of, you know, noticing their physical features, having a simple interest in them. You see, it's not easy to direct that initial stirring of sensual desire within us to a selfless love of the other person. Why? Because, as we know from our own human experience, our desire for sensual pleasure is so powerful that we can experience a desire to start wanting to use that other person in order to gain pleasure from them. In other words, we notice within us that our attraction to the person's physical features isn't just an innocent interest, but it's becoming like a craving within us that their physical features are an object of our desire. Like, I have a desire just to consume them. I start looking at them primarily as a body that I want to consume in order to get sexual pleasure from this person. Now, here's the key, and this is a really important insight from JP2, that at this level, it's not necessarily sinful. Yet as long as the will is still resisting, not consenting to this part of it that wants to consume the other person. In other words, JP2 says, we're fallen human beings. We're wounded by original sin. We can't expect perfection here. We can't expect then an act of the will is going to produce an immediate result. He says, I can't expect that just because I resist. This guy at the party will say he resists. You know, he wants to resist this stirring of desire for this woman's body that just because he makes that act of the will, it's going to immediately drive out any experience of sensual reaction within him. JP2 explains that there's a big difference between not wanting and not feeling or experiencing. In other words, there's a big difference between not willing, not actively choosing on one hand, and then not feeling or experiencing this hankering, this craving, this desire to consume within me. In other words, I may have parts of me that experience powerful sensual desire within me, but this experience, this sensual desire isn't coming necessarily from me. It's the power of concupiscence working within me. The core of me, my deepest self, is still resisting, not consenting. So take this man at the party. He's fascinated by her, but he's starting to notice within him, oh, wow, he has this really intense sensual desire for her. He's tempted to start moving down in lustful thoughts, lustful actions in his imagination, lustful fantasy. He's starting to find himself attracted to move in that direction. But there's still a part of him saying, nope, I don't want to give in to that lustful thought right now. I don't want to have this sexual fantasy. I don't want to stare at her this way. So there's this inner battle going on inside. And John Paul II says, as long as the will is still resisting, still trying, not consenting, not throwing in the towel at this stage, it's a difficult stage to be in, but it's not yet sinful. We haven't crossed the threshold into sin. That leads us to the third stage, what GPT calls carnal desire. And this is when something fundamental changes within me. Now. So I've had this maybe initial spontaneous reaction, just curious, just interested. I notice, then I notice this within me, this desire to consume, to reduce the person to a body. But I'm resisting that I'm not fully consenting. Part of me wants to go down this road of a lustful thought, a lustful glance, a lustful fantasy. But I'm resisting on the inside here. Something changes. My will gives up resisting. Now my will consents. And I'm choosing now I'm choosing to actively pursue what's happening in my sensual desires. In other words, I'm choosing to start actively treating the body of this person as a mere object for my enjoyment, whether in my thoughts, whether in my memories, my imagination, or my actions. In other words, here I'm no longer simply experiencing a desire to use a woman's body. It's not I experience this desire. Me. I want to use this person as a body for my. My sexual satisfaction. That's not what's happening anymore. Now the man is actually using her body as an outlet for carnal desire, even if it's just in his imagination, his memory, his thoughts, his fantasy. There's a great biblical example, I think, that could shed light on these three different stages. Do you remember the story in 2nd Samuel, chapter 11, of David and Bathsheba? It's one of the most famous stories in the life of David. One of his big moments of fall when he commits adultery with this woman who's married, married to a soldier, Uriah, who's out fighting battles for David. And David steals his wife and commits adultery with her. Now, it didn't begin that way, though. It's not like David just woke up one day and said, oh, I want to commit adultery with some woman here. The Bible simply tells us that David arose and then look at, looked out from his balcony and he happened to see a woman bathing on the rooftop below, and he noticed she was beautiful. Now, Bible doesn't give us a lot of information here, but as far as we know, David, David doesn't seem to plan this. He doesn't seek this out. You know, he's not like going out, I gotta go find some naked woman. He's not doing that. This is just. He walks outside, happens to notice this, and there's a spontaneous sensual reaction. He notices her beauty and he's taken in by it. And this isn't sinful. He didn't plan this at this stage. It's just an initial spontaneous reaction. What should he do at this moment? Well, he should turn away, he should go back inside. He should not continue looking. So that's what he should do. But we see that David seems to quickly move to the second stage, the second stage of sensual concupiscence. You get the sense that David was gazing at her for a while and wondering about her. We know that Scripture tells us that he actually calls his servants to inquire about her, hey, who is this? What can you tell me about her? So he's moving into this great curiosity now. He just didn't turn away, didn't keep that at a spontaneous thing. He's actually now starting to be too curious. And that seems to be moving into that second stage of sensual concupiscence. And eventually David falls into the third stage. We get that sense that that happens pretty quickly. He doesn't resist those concupiscent desires within him. He actually actively starts pursuing them. He tells his servants to go send some messengers to her to invite her to his palace, and then he commits adultery with her. And so notice there's times in life that I think kind of like David, that we're just living life and we're not seeking anything out. And all of a sudden we're driving on the highway and we see a billboard, a half naked lady on the billboard. And we didn't seek that out, we didn't plan that. We notice it, we were captivated by it. That's just a spontaneous sensual reaction. We could be on our computer screen, all of a sudden a little pop up, a little ad comes up and there's an immodest person that appears before us, or we're watching the football game and then an ad comes on. Things in our modern world, we moments like David had with Bathsheba appearing. We have little moments like that all the time in our lives. And we can't expect ourselves to just have an immediate, pure, holy, innocent, selfless response every single time. Like, we're probably going to notice their beauty. We're probably going to be taken in for maybe just a split second even, you know, what do we do at that moment? We want to turn away. We don't want to go back inside, not linger on it. That's the best thing. But. But we might find ourselves falling into that second stage where, ooh, I. I'm sitting with this now, and I'm. A part of me is wanting to look at that image again and to stare at that image and to let my imagination go further and start reducing this person to just their body and. And the sexual pleasure I can think I could have thinking about their body, looking at their body, imagining their body, that's dangerous. So I have that within me. But if I'm still resisting, I'm still saying, but I, nope, I don't want to do this. I want to turn away. And I'm trying to, like, turn away from it, but I still notice a part of me wanting to consume this person as a body, but I don't want to. And I'm trying to resist it. That's the inner battle. And when we're at that stage, that's the stage of sensual concupiscence. It's a difficult stage to be in, but it's not necessarily sinful until we actually consent. Now I'm actively seeking, okay, I want to go back and look at that image again. So I'm going to go back to that website or I want to drive by and look at that billboard again. Or the commercial comes on the screen instead of turning the TV off or changing the channel or looking away. I keep looking at this image that suddenly appeared, like that's where I'm actively seeking it out when I'm actively trying to feed that sensual desire. Now I'm falling, crossing the border into sin. So in closing, what are some takeaways we can have here? Three points I want to give you. First, let's all have humility on this front. We're fallen human beings. I love just JP2's compassion and his understanding of our humanity. We're fallen, we're wounded. So deeply wounded by original sin. I think some Christians expect so much of themselves, but it's almost a form of spiritual pride. I shouldn't pridefully expect that all concupiscence, desire is just Going to immediately disappear. Voila. Just because I try to resist it. I don't want to have this lustful thought. I don't want to have this lustful desire within me. So if I just resist it, the battle immediately is over and I'm not going to feel anything within me at all. I'm going to have total, pure holy thoughts now. Total, pure holy desires. Now, that's not reality. We're fallen. We're human beings, and over time, God can work and heal us. But most of the time we're going to experience some level of inner battle and to be patient with ourselves, to have humility, to recognize we're deeply wounded. And yes, we should never consent. Yes, we should always resist. But to have parts of us that are hankering after that person's body, to notice that within us, as long as I'm not resisting to go, you know what? This is just where I am. I'm fallen. I'm human. There's going to be a battle here. Okay? Second thing, though, is take courage. Because it is a battle. And sometimes the battle, if I nip it in the bud early on and I quickly turn away like David should have immediately turned away, not, you know, had curiosity, not seeking out more information about her, just turned away. When we resist, especially early on in the battle for purity, it's a lot easier. But even if we continue to feel that sensual, concupiscent desire within us, to continue to resist, to never give up, and have confidence that even if there's a battle, as long as I'm fighting, I'm resisting, I'm not giving into it, I'm not actively feeding it, I'm not actively pursuing it. If I feel stuff coming up within me, but my will, the core of who I am, my choices, I choose not to consent here like that. Even though I may feel stuff within me, I'm choosing not to consent. We're in good space. We're in the battle. And then finally, if we do fall and we're weak as many times we will fall and we will cross the line into lust. In those moments, let's trust in the Father's mercy, to trust how much he loves us. Even when we fail, I think we can always go to him and say, I'm sorry. We can always, you know, when it's a serious matter and I take it to confession and receive the grace of absolution should always bring these things to confession. There's powerful graces, not just to be forgiven, but graces to help us overcome these sins and be strengthened for the next battle we may face. But at the heart of this, to remember, even if we do fall, we fall multiple times. Just remember how much God loves you. His love for you is not dependent on your performance. It's not dependent on how often you get it right. He loves you and he knows how wounded you are. Wounded by original sin, wounded by maybe choices you've made in the past. Wounded by maybe even certain addictions. To know that even with all that, he loves you. He knows you even in your weakness, even in your failure. His love is not dependent on how well you perform on the matters of purity. It's just that he wants purity for you because that's when we're free, free on the inside to have interior freedom to love other people, to see them as persons and not just bodies. And that's when we experience greater peace, greater love in our lives. So Jesus, he wants purity for you and your mind and your heart for your sake. His love for you is not dependent on how perfect you get all this. His love for you is unconditional. Let that be a strength for you as you continue to fight the battle for purity in your heart. Thanks so much for listening, my friends. All that I'm sharing with you is from my book called Men, Women and the Mystery of Love, which is being published now by my good friends at Ascension Press. You can go get the book@ascensionpress.com this is a book that's been used by young adults around the world for dating relationships, for discerning marriages. So you can check it out there at Ascension Press. Thanks so much and God bless. Sam.