← Alt Goes Mainstream: The Latest on Alternative Investments, WealthTech, & Private Markets
Alt Goes Mainstream: The Latest on Alternative Investments, WealthTech, & Private Markets
AGM Unscripted: Goldman Sachs' Jeff Fine - An Investor’s Guide to Private Markets
00:37:08
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- [00:00]
A
I would give them the same advice that our public markets advisors give to their clients, which is focus on the medium to long term, stay invested. Don't try to time markets. It's not about piling in right now or pulling back tomorrow. It's about building exposure over time to great companies and great assets with managers that have been tested to weather cycles, who capitalize their investments thoughtfully and who are actively involved in the management of their portfolios. And that's it. It's as simple as that. This is a parallel and yet connected market in a lot of ways to the public markets and the approach should be very consistent. Even though the characteristics of the two may differ in certain ways. I don't think the approach to deployment should be materially different.
- [01:06]
B
Welcome back to the Alcos Mainstream Podcast. In this special series we went behind the scenes at the Goldman Sachs Alternatives Conference and interviewed six Goldman Sachs Alternatives leaders about their current thinking on private markets and and how the firm has built and evolved its private markets capabilities. This next interview in the series is with Jeff Fine. Jeff is the Global co head of Alternatives Capital Formation within Goldman Sachs Asset Management with responsibility for capital raising, product strategy research and investor relations across private equity, private credit, real assets, secondaries, GP stakes and hedge funds liquid alternatives. We had an interesting and insightful conversation. Thanks Jeff and please enjoy. We're going Mainstream Jeff, welcome to the Elkos Mainstream Podcast.
- [01:50]
A
Thank you for having me.
- [01:51]
B
A lot to talk about as it relates to everything that's going on at the intersection of both institutional capital flows, wealth channel capital flows. This conference is really emblematic of that. You have both client types here. You obviously focus on both client types. I think we're going to have a really interesting discussion. I'd love to start with your background because you have a really interesting background as it pertains to your perspective on private markets and working with both institutional and wealth channel clients. So how did you end up where you are today?
- [02:23]
A
Again, thank you for having me on the podcast. Thank you for being here today and spending time with our teams. I grew up in State College, Pennsylvania. I went to Cornell University. I graduated in 2002 and I went right to work at Goldman Sachs. I joined our then merchant banking division as a real estate investor and stayed in that job for over 20 years and so the majority of my career was spent as an investor in the property sector until a couple of years ago when the firm asked me first to help build out our product suite for our real estate business globally which led to co running the then newly formed at the end of 2003, alternatives capital formation, which is really the center of alternatives capital raising across all channels at the firm, across both our direct and our indirect products for both drawdowns and evergreen funds. And just thinking about a combination of where is the opportunity set in the world? What are our clients asking for and demanding in certain cases, and what are we good at? And where can the firm have a demonstrated advantage as a risk manager and a risk taker?
- [03:33]
B
How do you think your background as an investor has informed how you think about partnering with institutional or wealth channel clients?
- [03:43]
A
Look, I think the market is getting more and more sophisticated by the day. I think clients know all the right questions to ask, and that's clients across channels. That's institutional clients that have had sophisticated organizations with the help of really good consultants for a long time. Increasingly, it's in the wealth channel through wirehouses and ever more sophisticated RIAs. They ask really smart questions. They want to know details about sector level experience, both in terms of track record and also what we're seeing in market in particular things. And so while certain products have historically been sold products, which means I don't have to know too much about them, if I'm a really good client person, then I am definitionally an eternal optimist and it's my job to just go sell things to the market. I think what the market demands today are people who understand the risks involved in various strategies that can articulate the benefits of what we do versus what competitors do in an ever increasing competitive market. And so with an investment background, it's certainly helped me be able to guide a lot of those conversations with clients at all different altitudes. And we've tried to push that down to our teams as well.
- [05:06]
B
I think that brings up a really interesting point because it feels like, particularly as it relates to the wealth channel, there are firms that have grown to real size and scale in terms of building out their distribution teams. There's teams that are trying to catch up and firms that are investing a lot in the wealth channel. But it also feels like there's still a nascent and budding set of talent in the space that can get to the level of really understanding products. That's why we're seeing this role of the product specialist come to bear. That sits between the investment side of the business and the distribution side of the business. And in many cases, those product specialists have some sort of background on the investing side. How do you think about the talent in this space and how does talent continue to develop so that there are more and more product specialists and what that means for the bigger platforms that are working with the wealth channel.
- [06:02]
A
I think the lines are blurring quite a bit. Again, I think that the historic sales job was just that. It was about client service. It was about selling things that you were paid to sell. I think with this increasing focus on transparency and explaining the risks inherent in the various products that we sell, the demand is greater and therefore you're seeing more investors moving to the capital side and working with clients, not necessarily in a sales capacity, but as proxies for the businesses that they sit adjacent to. So that our investment teams can continue to do what they do, which is find great investments and have a partner focused on the equally important responsibility of focusing on our liability side, which is where our capital comes from, to meet opportunities. And. And I think it's a great opportunity for people who want a different challenge in their career. Obviously, the fundraising environment has been difficult for many, so when I look at the landscape right now, there's great things to do on the investing side, there's really interesting things to do on the capital side, and the skill set required is becoming more common than it's ever been before.
- [07:16]
B
What types of firms or what types of capabilities do you think will really provide asset managers with advantages when it comes to the ability to raise capital?
- [07:28]
A
There are lots of things, I think resourcing is really important. There is a consolidation that's happening in the industry right now where fewer managers are getting bigger, they're consolidating more capital, therefore they're generating more fees that allow them to support more people. But at the same time, they're expanding their product bench, they're innovating their products in ways that are fairly complicated. And so if the resourcing does not keep up with the growth and the expansion, then mistakes will get made or performance will suffer. So that's number one. I think there's an enormous war for talent that's going to go on, both on the distribution side as well as on the investing side. This has been a strange period for the last few years because the market has been so gummed up by the tightening period that we saw in 2022, the lack of deal flow that we saw as a result, because there's lots of question about valuations and where the market is relative to where people are holding positions in leg funds. But that's going to break at some point, and when that breaks, and I think it's sooner than further away, you're going to see much more dispersion in manager Performance, you're going to see who really has the goods and who doesn't. And back to the sophisticated investors, they're spending a lot more time now focused on benchmarking, focused on who's really skilled at a particular thing versus who's doing it just because it's a thing to do. And that's going to be a self fulfilling prophecy as well.
- [08:58]
B
Putting on your investor hat, Given your background, what do you think it takes to be a great investor?
- [09:07]
A
GP I think you have to first and foremost put investment performance and investment results at the top of your list. Ahead of business model growth, moving a stock price, proliferating new products. Everything you do has to be performance to the best of your ability. Starts and ends there. That's about asset selection, that's about risk management, that's about properly capitalizing opportunities and not engineering returns. And if you get that piece of it right, then the rest should build around that. You should be able to attract great talent, you should be able to raise more capital even in a difficult fundraising environment. And over the long run, which is what you should be geared toward, the long run, not the week, not the quarter, not the year. But these are long term trusted relationships that we're building that we need to be really focused on.
- [10:03]
B
Where my mind goes is two places. One is it's the balance. And what I mean by the balance is one, in terms of how you balance the origination you have from a deal perspective and matching that with the LP demand that could be in drawdown funds, that could be in evergreen funds. We're seeing that crop up as a question more frequently is how do you balance how much capital you're going to raise and particularly into an evergreen fund, with how much flows or origination you have and then also balancing the institutional client relationships and then the burgeoning wealth channel, which is becoming a capital provider to the space. So how do you think about balancing those two aspects of the business and platform that you have?
- [10:47]
A
Well, first and foremost, again, everything is investment led. So our business leaders come in every day looking to the market for the best relative opportunities that they can find in the market, trying to find dislocation, trying to find pricing arbitrage, trying to find pockets of the market that we think will outperform because growth will be better, because we can affect operational changes that will allow us to accrete margin, to spend capital wisely in a way that we can return well in excess of our capital deployment in order to bolster that particular investment. That's where it starts. And Stops, then the question is, who are our clients and can we provide them with access in vehicles that make sense for them given their unique needs to those underlying investments? Doesn't work the other way. It's not, I go raise a whole bunch of money and now I've got to go manufacture things to put into the vehicles. That's where we get ourselves into trouble.
- [11:42]
B
It's a great point because I think there's an element of meeting clients where they are, particularly in the wealth channel. That's something that you hear being said often is make sure you meet the clients where they are. How do you balance meeting the clients where they are in terms of what they may think they want with making sure you have the right product construction? There's different types of product construction or wrappers. How do you balance those two things?
- [12:07]
A
I think transparency and clear explanation of the objectives of what we're doing and the risk are really important to communicate. Go. Throughout history and anytime there has been opacity around a new product or a new innovation where people have come in less than fully informed, bad things result. And so we take the responsibility very seriously that anything we put on our shelf to market to clients is something that we believe in at the investment level and something that we are transparent about from a risk and reward perspective. Going back to your earlier comment, I know there is this perception that there's way more capital than there is opportunity to deploy. Therefore returns are going to suffer. Bad stuff is going to get thrown into vehicles that it shouldn't. There's a tug of war between institutional capital and wealth capital. I'm going to suggest a slightly different way of thinking about it, which is more assets and companies are in the private markets today than they've ever been before. And that's a trend that we believe is only going to increase because the growth in many of those companies is going to be compounding concentration in the private markets. Therefore, the pie that we who practition in the private markets have to eat from should grow. Number two, capital again is consolidating among managers. And so while if you only focus on the top five or 10 managers in the world, you say, oh my goodness, look how much capital they're raising right now from all channels. Wealth, insurance, institutional. Look at how hard it is for so many managers right now to raise any capital. Many of them, I believe, are running on fumes from fees that they're still charging on legacy products, on assets that they're holding while they're not able to raise new funds. And the future of those businesses when lots of people have left some of those firms, when the fundraising prospect is dim, suggests that capital is certainly concentrating in those top five to 10 firms. But it's also leaking out a bit from the middle of the market. What I would call the non specialists who still have a place in the market going forward, who are the operators and the business builders and the largest asset managers that are the best resource, that offer lots of different solutions to clients. And so when you really do the math on capital relative to long term opportunity set, I'm not sure it's so out of balance. We just happen to have been in a period where deal volume was very low for a while. And so it's exacerbated the view of that problem. But I think that's going to dissipate too.
- [14:41]
B
You're also making a really interesting point in the context of market size and what TAMS could be. So if we zoom out right, global equity markets, global fixed income markets are in the hundreds of trillions of dollars each respectively. You have private markets which is anywhere from 15 to 18 trillion or so. But then you think about like private credit as an example, what close to a $3 trillion market, but some people say maybe that could be 20 trillion or 40 trillion. If you think about ABF and different parts of the private credit ecosystem, secondaries in both private equity, private credit, those are hundreds of billion dollar markets. Private equity secondary is bigger than private credit secondaries obviously given the nascency of private credit as an industry and where that's headed. But these are all strategies or asset class real estate infrastructure that seemingly could be much bigger than they are today. How much does that factor into your views on where private markets can go and also how to think about the capital formation around that?
- [15:42]
A
I believe in growth in economies, I believe in growth in the world. I think science right now to predict how the US economy is going to grow. But I think with a lot of the new technologies and industries that are being created right now, you continue to see expansion of that asset base at what pace, time will tell. But an enormous amount of capital is needed in order to fund that expansion. Because it's not just about moving a company from here to here, it's about investing in that company to help it grow. And the capital needs have never been greater. So I actually think it's a win for financial markets that there is a lot of capital and that there is both financing as well as equity capital to deploy in these very high growth sectors. Can I tell you that the valuations are all perfect. I can't. And again, time will be the better judge of that. But I think this notion that there is a surplus of capital and a finite number of opportunities is idiosyncratic to the moment. It's about today when the gap between buyers and sellers still exists at some level. But we're seeing that gap starting to close. We're seeing deal activity start to pick up. Barring some sort of major correction in markets or economies, I'm hopeful that assets and companies are going to start trading hands again and into new pockets of capital that have fresh dollars or euros or yen to deploy in order to simulate bigger growth. The goal is not finite pie where things just keep moving around. The goal is to grow the pie so that the overall economy benefits.
- [17:21]
B
Are there certain markets or regions of the world where you're most excited from a capital formation perspective that maybe people aren't as familiar with?
- [17:31]
A
The US market is still such a large market. I know there has been growing diversification trend into non dollar assets into other parts of the world. But those other parts of the world are finite in terms of their ability to replace the U.S. i think the dollar will continue to be the world's currency for the foreseeable future and therefore I'm still focused on the expansion of capital opportunity in this country. I think you're seeing through insurance markets, through the wealth markets, growing interest in what we do as a private markets practitioner. But I think you're seeing global capital rally around lots of really interesting themes. I think they want to be diversified across different types of products, different parts of the capital structure, different sectors. I think the number one thing I hear from clients every day is I want to be diversified. I don't know what's coming next. There's a lot of noise about overheated market, very high valuations in the public markets. Nobody quite knows whether they're right or they're wrong. But the best thing you can do is spread your bets, make sure that you're participating in the economy because you don't want to sit it out. Worst thing you can do is sit in cash in a market where things continue to move up to the right. It's definitionally deflationary. And so we hear from sovereign wealth funds who are very interested in staying deployed and continuing to deploy. We hear from insurance companies all over the world, from wealth customers all over the world. People want to participate in financial markets. I think they have learned through cycles that sitting out long periods of time is a missed opportunity. The question is, how do you do it in a smart way so that when the inevitable hiccup or reset comes, you're going to be okay and you can weather the storm. Be it in capital structure, be it in asset selection, thinking about portfolio construction and pacing, those are really important things that sometimes get left to the side.
- [19:29]
B
I want you to unpack that point a little bit further. When you say allocating to private markets in a smart way, what do you mean?
- [19:36]
A
Private markets means a lot of different things. Private equity is an investment, a control investment, oftentimes in companies that are generally cash flow positive. The objective on our part is to make those companies better and stronger because of the sectors they're in, the capital that we're going to invest, the upgrades we're going to make to management, the growth that we're going to stimulate, both organic and sometimes inorganic. It's a value add strategy. I think people got confused to think that if I just buy a company and let market tailwinds and easy macro make something worth more tomorrow than it was worth today, then I'm a hero in this business. The business is really about finding inefficiency and applying alpha strategies in order to get paid for what we do. Growth. Similarly, little bit of a different format in the sense that oftentimes non control funding companies that oftentimes aren't cash flow positive. But we're underwriting the same fundamentals. We're thinking about where we can add value in companies that are going to fundamentally change the world and therefore grow into their valuations over time. That's a really exciting thing, particularly in some of the sectors that we're highly focused on around technology and enterprise and financial software and healthcare. We're really excited about that. Private credit is a yield instrument. It's a way to invest with a trade off of some duration for excess risk premium in a world where yield is a critical component of most people's portfolios and different than the world we came out of post 2021, where real estate and infrastructure levered were no longer everyone's yield. Proxy credit's really important. And so I talk to people all the time and I say think about private credit both as part of your private markets allocation, but also think about it as a sister to your fixed income portfolio and just a different kind of risk to diversify but enhance returns.
- [21:38]
B
I think that's a really important point and we can tie that together with a word that you've mentioned a number of times now. And I think it's an important one, which is insurance. So many people when they think of the new capital formation coming into private markets, it's the wealth channel. Well, I think that is one new institutional investor. And the wealth channel is becoming more institutional in nature of the acquisition of OCIO is the platformization of many of these large wealth platforms, the Coriants, the saratis, the Rockefellers, etc. Of the world. But then you have insurance as well. That feels like the new. They're an institutional investor. I don't want to say they're the new institutional investor, but they have been structurally under allocated relative to their other institutional peers and it seems that they are also becoming an increasing player in private markets. You did an insurance survey recently on the CIOs as you do every year. I'd love to hear your thoughts on insurance as an LP category. How are they approaching private markets and why are they approaching it maybe differently than they've done in the past?
- [22:38]
A
I think you have to start with what is an insurance company? What is its fundamental business? And I would go across everything we do. What is a pension fund? What are its objectives? What is the wealth customer's ultimate objective? And really the financial advisor that that customer is paying in order to give them sound advice based on transparent information from providers of services that allow them to earn certain returns, taking a certain amount of risk. Start there. I think insurance businesses are complicated businesses, but fundamentally there are objectives that insurers must meet in order to satisfy their obligation to their customers. And most of that has to do with how are they going to generate a sufficient return on the capital that they manage in order to meet those obligations. So when our very talented insurance coverage people who get far more technical into this, then we're going to be able to, in this conversation, sit down with their counterparts. It's about solutions, orientation. It's about saying to them, what are the objectives you need to meet? Where are the deficiencies that you see right now in your portfolio based on either current obligations you have or future, depending on how you think about growing your business. And it happens to be that for many of those insurers, credit's a great place to allocate capital in the private space because again, they earn a premium. It is oftentimes capital efficient for them to invest in credit versus certain equity strategies. And so that's what it's really all about. It's about getting to know your client, getting to know your customer, understanding their business and their needs, and then matching that with underliers that we so carefully curate to make sure we're not making mistakes.
- [24:25]
B
So you talk about the word curation. I want to hang on to that because I think that's an important element as it relates to private markets. You're also a scaled platform. I think we're at this point in private markets as it relates to distribution to all different types of investors, particularly those in wealth and insurance, where it's customization or curation, but doing it at scale and balancing those things. How do you think about that challenge of balancing customization or curation and doing that at scale?
- [24:55]
A
I look at it two ways. So first and foremost, my job is to give objective, unbiased advice to clients agnostic to individual products, sectors, formats, business lines. It is the privilege and the challenge of sitting on top of all of the different sectors in which we transact. Lots of CIOs and heads of multi strategy businesses sit down and say, tell me about what you're seeing in the world right now. Tell me what asset classes are interesting, tell me where there's cracks that you're worried about. Here's my portfolio. How does that look relative to your view of what it should look like in the future? And if we agree that there's a gap, how do we work together to close that gap? Availing ourselves of all the resources again that we have through human beings and different types of products and strategies that can help fill those gaps? That's super important. That's a big part of what we have to do. Number two is your question about customization. Well, customization is really valuable to a client for obvious reasons and comes at a cost. For managers, the goal in working with clients is figuring out how to meet in the place where there's enough customization that the client feels like his or her needs are being attended to properly and that they're not being jammed into something that they don't want to be in. Square peg, round hole, whatever the right metaphor is, but at the same time that the business can support with the finite resources that we employ. And so if we said yes to every customized ask that was brought to us, we would wind up with an operational and cost infrastructure that would be unsustainable. And in turn we would wind up delivering bad performance. So what we have to do as a manager is say, how do we build this machine to handle as much scale as possible, provide as much customization as possible, and sort of find that right balance that everyone is trying to find right now. And some can be more rigid and we only do things this way and you're either with us or you're not. And that comes at a consequence. And some go the other way and wind up with a broken model.
- [27:26]
B
Do you think many LPs, whether they be institutional or individual wealth channel, do you think they want more choice or less choice when it comes to product?
- [27:34]
A
I think it depends on the customer. I think oftentimes people begin thinking they want a certain thing and wind up realizing that maybe what they thought wasn't the best course for them. And what I mean by that is we've got a lot of very, very large institutional clients who have said, I just want to be a direct investor, I just want to do my own deals. So, okay, that's great, we can find ways to partner with you if that's really what you want. But then when they think about their denominator, whatever their target allocations are by sectors, and then they look at their own finite resources and scarce headcount, they say, I'm falling behind plan, I can't keep up, or I'm not looking at enough things in order to create a real funnel to decide what the best things are. And so for a lot of those groups that maybe at the outset had an allergic reaction to coming into a fund, all of a sudden they come around, they say, you know what? I'm going to do part of my allocation in funds and then I'll do part through co investments and directs alongside of those trusted managers who perform well for me in the fund format. Now I can get more capital to work, I can get to my target allocations in a more sensible way. And it's just a journey to be able to find that middle ground with each customer.
- [28:54]
B
That's a really interesting point because it feels like one of the trends we're seeing in private markets, particularly on the institutional side, I think is also starting to happen in other parts of the LP market is doing more with less. So firms on the LP side that are consolidating their LP relationships, but trying to do more with those firms, whether it's through funds, through co invests. Do you see that trend continuing to persist?
- [29:19]
A
Yes.
- [29:20]
B
Why?
- [29:22]
A
Because I think what we as a financial services provider can offer those clients. When you think about what's required to make smart investment decisions today, it's research, it's market coverage, it is people outsourcing deals, it's underwriters, it's closers, it's lawyers, it's compliance people. When you add all those things up, unless you are operating at an enormous scale and are able to support a huge cost structure, not to mention all of the technology and the data, I think what a lot of folks are realizing is better for me to rent those things from these very large resource providers who definitionally compete for than the very best talent, than to try and build it or buy it myself. Because I'm creating redundancy that doesn't need to be created on my own nickel. And the way that the scaled managers are able to furnish that information to me is at a relative discount. So why wouldn't I avail myself of that? Unless there's something that is super proprietary that has to just be mine and mine alone. And so that's why I think this notion, people use this idea of a strategic partnership and everybody runs around, you can be my strategic partner today. But it's meaningful because it's about what do I do well and what do you do well and how do we fit together in a way where we're not carrying duplicative cost in a world where labor cost, capital investment are all going up. So better for me to shed some of those costs, focus on my own margins, allocate my people's time to the things that they can be the best at that are really differentiated for our organization and rent the rest from the people that I entrust my capital with and have that type of relationship with.
- [31:23]
B
You talk with a lot of LPs, whether it be institutional or insurance or wealth channel. What do you think is something that's less obvious to many in the market that you hear from them that you think will become a bigger trend going forward?
- [31:40]
A
Look, I think people are very focused on what comes next. I think there remains a lot of concern about valuations in both public markets and private markets. People are worried that there's a shoe that could drop that's going to expose that potential overvaluation. To be clear, while we don't know for sure, it's not valuations that keep us up at night. It's about finding great opportunities. It's about doing our job, which is once we own something, then working it to the best possible outcome over the time horizon that people have entrusted us with their capital along. I think people want to participate in the exciting things going on in the economy and in the markets. And yet they don't feel like the markets ever really reset in a fundamental way the way that it did coming out of the financial crisis or the way that it did coming out of the dot com bust where there was a long period of real value investing. This is a believer's market right now. And what I mean by that is the strongest Tailwinds are being driven by the thing that is fundamentally transformative to economies and markets. And we've never seen this thing before. We can go back to the railroads, we go back to the Internet and talk about all the things that were transformative, the capital investment that went into that over time, the things we got right and wrong and how markets moved in response. But what's happening right now is about belief in a future that's going to be better with bigger, stronger companies that operate more efficiently, with economies, that sustain with roles in the economy for lots and lots of people. So we don't exacerbate this haves and have not dynamic that people are rightfully very focused on. And so we're not in a moment where buying things cheap is a thing. Maybe there's some real estate out there that you could buy inexpensively, but if I look at the big categories of private equity and infrastructure growth companies, there's a bet on the future and people want to participate in that. And yet they're a little nervous that the shoe could drop. And so juxtaposing that is hard. And that's where we have to step in and again talk about portfolio construction and pacing and deployment and risk management in order to buffer them from any bumps along the way.
- [34:16]
B
I think it's a really interesting perspective because I think when I hear what you say, one thing that comes to my mind is that scale really matters. And being with scaled players, whether it's on the GP side, whether it's investing in scaled players in many of these industries, up against many of these big trends, you can debate whether or not valuations and entry points make sense, and that always matters. But going with scale may in fact be the right thing to do in certain cases. Brings up an interesting question, given that you talk with so many different LPs is what advice would you give to LPs in the current investment environment, given that things seemingly are increasingly complex? You have the geopolitical element we've touched on and you have changing market structure in private markets across different strategies. You can approach private markets or megatrends in different ways, whether it's to private equity, private credit, venture growth, infrastructure, real estate. What advice would you give to LPs investing today?
- [35:24]
A
I would give them the same advice that our public markets advisors give to their clients, which is focus on the medium to long term, stay invested, don't try to time markets. It's not about piling in right now or pulling back tomorrow. It's about building exposure over time to great companies. And great assets with managers that have been tested to weather cycles, who capitalize their investments thoughtfully and who are actively involved in the management of their portfolios. And that's it. It's as simple as that. This is a parallel and yet connected market in a lot of ways to the public markets, and the approach should be very consistent, even though the characteristics of the two may differ in certain ways. I don't think the approach to deployment should be materially different.
- [36:21]
B
I think that's a great way to wrap this up because it ties so many different things that we touched on together and it also provides a window into the investor perspective, which I think is so important. As you think about allocating to private markets, you come with the investor perspective now, bringing that to the capital formation side, and both things are inextricably linked. But having that perspective, I think is a fascinating one, which you illuminated today. So thanks so much, Jeff.
- [36:49]
A
Super fun. Thank you so much.
- [36:52]
B
Thanks for listening to this episode of Alt Goes Mainstream. I hope you enjoyed it. You can read more about Alts at my substack, altgoes mainstream.substack.com Thanks a lot and have a great day.