Raj Panjabi Johnson (1:49)

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi Johnson, the head.

Dr. Wendy Wood (1:51)

Of identity content at HuffPost.

Noah Michelson (1:53)

And I'm Noah Michaelson, director of HuffPost Personal.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (1:56)

Welcome to Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the alter human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

Noah Michelson (2:01)

Okay, Raj, how good are you or how bad are you at forming a new habit?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (2:09)

Lord, if it's a good habit, I'm terrible at it. I'm a giant toddler that like hasn't figured out adulthood yet and I'm trying to do better every day. The habits are very hard for me. Just for example, dishes in the sink. Like, Calvin can come and tell you about how long that has taken me to work on we are not the Dishwasher Elite.

Noah Michelson (2:30)

Uh huh.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (2:31)

Uh, what about you?

Noah Michelson (2:32)

See now I'm thinking I think I'm good at making habits, but I also think I'm just neurotic. Like there are no dishes in my sink unless Benji puts them there. And then I'm annoyed about that. Like, I can't even sit down to dinner if we haven't cleaned the kitchen. And he's often like, what's wrong with you? I'm not sure if that's a habit or that's just me being totally out of my mind.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (2:51)

It sounds like a great habit to me.

Noah Michelson (2:53)

But if I am good at habits, I am pretty disciplined. I would love to know why I'm good at them. Or, like, what am I doing? Or am I doing something? Or is this just autopilot? So I am very curious about this episode.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (3:04)

Well, we're going to find out today. All right, we have with us Wendy Wood, a behavioral scientist, researcher, and professor at the University of Southern California. She's also the author of Good Habits, Bad Habits, the Science of Making Positive Changes Stick.

Noah Michelson (3:19)

All right, let's get a habit.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (3:22)

Dr. Wood, we're so excited to have you. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Wendy Wood (3:25)

Oh, it's great to be here with you.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (3:27)

Awesome. Let's start with the most basic question. What exactly is a habit?

Dr. Wendy Wood (3:33)

Yes. That is a question that many of us struggle with because we know so much about how we think and feel. Right. You know when you have a belief about something. You know when you have an emotion, a strong reaction to something, but you don't know when you really have a habit. There's not a conscious sort of awareness of it because habits are stored in a part of your memory that and a part of your neural network that isn't accessible to consciousness. You can't really tell when you have a habit and when you don't, except by observing your behavior and seeing. Well, I put my seatbelt on in the same way every single time I get in the car, and I'm not thinking about when I'm doing it. Those are good cues to have having a habit. Habits form through repetition, and you can think of them as mental associations that streamline your behavior, your decision making. You don't have to think about much when you're acting on habit. When you get up in the morning and make a cup of coffee, you stand in front of your coffee maker, and few of us think, huh, I wonder if I really need a cup of coffee today. Or, how am I going to do this? What am I going to do? I mean, those. We don't need to think about those things. Instead, we're just going through the steps that we've practiced, and then we get that cup of coffee.

Noah Michelson (5:17)

Would you say that a habit Is the same thing as a routine, or are routines and habits different?

Dr. Wendy Wood (5:22)

That's a very good question, and scientists are not really sure about the answer to that.

Noah Michelson (5:29)

Okay.

Dr. Wendy Wood (5:30)

Many people think of routines as sort of multiple habits and sequences.

Noah Michelson (5:38)

Right.

Dr. Wendy Wood (5:38)

Your morning routine has a bunch of. Is made up of a bunch of different habits. You get up, you brush your teeth, you take a shower, you check the time. So there are all these sort of habits, these simple associations that make up the broader routine. And I think that's the easiest way to talk about it. Although, as I said, it's not the way all scientists want to talk about it.

Noah Michelson (6:08)

Well, like, yeah, I would think human behavior in general is hard to talk about or understand or conceptualize. So a lot of the stuff is going to be a little bit tricky, sticky as it is.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (6:16)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (6:16)

But we're going to do our best.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (6:18)

So, unfortunately, we think about our habits in the binary a lot. So the good ones are supposed to help us lead a healthier life, and the bad ones are supposed to be unhealthy for us. Are there, like, neutral habits or things that don't matter, Dr. Wood?

Dr. Wendy Wood (6:32)

Yes. In fact, what makes a habit good or bad is just whether it fits your goals in the moment. You could start off eating ice cream on the sofa when you watch TV at night, and that could feel like a pretty good habit to have for a while until you start realizing that it has consequences that you probably don't want. So what started off as something that seemed like it was working for you and you were developing a pretty, pretty fun habit there ended up being something that was now a bad habit. So whether a habit is good or bad just depends on your current goals. Most of our habits are good in the sense that they actually work for us, and we probably couldn't get through the day without them. You'd be stuck in front of that coffee machine asking yourself, okay, so how do I put in the filter? And how much grams? You wouldn't get much beyond that. So most of our habits really are good for us in that sense that they help streamline decision making, important decision making in the sense that it's decisions we'd have to make every day.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (7:56)

I like that they kind of protect us.

Dr. Wendy Wood (7:58)

Exactly. And for that reason, habits are stored in a part of our neural system that is separate from our goals and our thoughts and our beliefs. So you all of a sudden decided, this ice cream thing is not working for me. I'm gaining weight. I'm not feeling so healthy. Unfortunately, that habit would not change with your decision what habits develop slowly over time. They also decay very slowly. So it's a great system when it's working for you, but it's a really problematic system when the habits have turned bad for some reason, you don't undo them anymore.

Noah Michelson (8:52)

So I think, you know, when we talk about habits, there are these ones that are subconscious that we're just doing that get us through the day. But I also am thinking of habits that are ones that we want to create. So I'm thinking like, it's the new year. I would love to be reading more. I would love to read 20 pages before bed, but I never do it. So how do I start a habit that I'm actually going to stick with?

Dr. Wendy Wood (9:12)

Well, that's a great question for this show because most people actually do that wrong. Probably what you've done is you have tried to remind yourself, right, that this was your goal when you get into bed. And you may have a book there, but you also have your phone. And you have a habit of looking at your phone. So that's you're tired, it's the end of the day. So that's when you're most likely to fall back into old habit. If you want to start a new habit, the best thing to do is to make it easy. Easy to do the new behavior and hard to do the one that you're trying to change. What research suggests is that you should take your cell phone out of there, maybe have a basket that you put it in in your kitchen. You can hear it ring, so you're not worried about it. You need an alarm clock, obviously, but you have a book there, and you have a reading light that works and doesn't keep your partner awake. So these are all things that you sort of have to think about beforehand. It's not changing and focusing on yourself and your willpower. It's focusing on what's going on around you that would make it easy for you to repeat the behavior that you want to form into a habit. I love this question because my son read my book, my older son, and if you have children, you know how often they take your advice. He's an elite athlete and he's very worried about how much he sleeps. And so he was looking at his phone a lot at night and didn't want to be doing that, but didn't know how to really stop it. I mean, he tried everything, like probably you have, and it wasn't working. So he realized, oh, yeah, I could do that. I could leave my phone in the kitchen. And he calls me Up a few days later and he says, mom, you'd never believe it. This advice you gave, it worked. I'm now sleeping an hour more a night than I was with my phone there. I thought, yeah, research sometimes is true.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (11:53)

Well, he's a bigger person than me because I don't even admit when my parents are right, and I just keep it quiet. And my mom is usually right. I hate to say that. She's a smart lady, but I don't admit it to her. So he's a good guy.

Dr. Wendy Wood (12:07)

He is a good guy, but it doesn't happen often.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (12:12)

In your own research, you found that there are three components to creating the habitat. Context, repetition, and reward. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Dr. Wendy Wood (12:21)

Yeah. So let me use this example. Habits aren't mental associations, as I said. They're associations between the context you're in and a response that you're practicing over and over again that gets you some reward. In this case, the reward would be reading a really good book that makes you feel good while you're reading it. Very interesting. And then also gets you out of that endless scroll habit. So you get to bed earlier. So there's all kinds of rewards associated with getting your phone out of your bedroom. The context is going to bed. And ultimately, if you repeat a behavior often enough in a given context, all you have to do is get into bed and you start thinking about picking up the book, not your phone. And then, you know, you formed a habit. So habits don't involve struggle. In fact, when we've observed people who are really good at meeting their goals and are very efficient at living their lives, they're not struggling to do it. They're not thinking all the time about, I wish I was scrolling TikTok or whatever. Instead, they have formed these habits that just focus them on one behavior, the one that is working for them, the good habit at that point, and they don't think about anything further. There's not a struggle. It's not a white knuckle thing, which is why you want to make the whole experience easy. As soon as you start struggling, you know that you're not building a habit. You haven't set up the context to make it easy enough for you to repeat the behavior. And you also probably haven't found the thing to do, the kind of book you want to read, whatever that is rewarding enough to make you want to do it again.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (14:45)

Okay, that is really resonating, and I think it will resonate with a lot of people. I'm, you know, I Always talk about this. Working on constantly on my exercise routine, and I didn't realize that it gets easier. Once you have clothes that you like to work out in, equipment that you like, you find the right workout, you find the right time of day, the right playlist. It's the perfect storm, and you need it in order to form a habit. And now that's making sense.

Dr. Wendy Wood (15:11)

It is such a simple idea, right? We all think in order to work out, we have to struggle, we have to be really strong people, we have to have lots of willpower. But you don't. You just need to figure out the things that are rewarding for you. And I agree, going to the gym in a cool new workout outfit is very rewarding.

Noah Michelson (15:38)

How long does it take for a habit to stick? I was reading some people say, oh, you know, do you have to do something for three weeks? Has science found that there's actually a time or a duration, and after that amount of time, it's more likely for it to stick?

Dr. Wendy Wood (15:52)

Well, habits are a learning system, so some things are harder to learn than others. Easy behaviors, things like putting your sit back on are going to become habitual much faster than more complex behaviors, ones that involve a sequence of actions, like going to the gym. Find the right time. You have to get the right podcast to listen to figure out what kinds of machines you like to work out in. Maybe you need to join a class. Lots of decisions, those habits take longer.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (16:30)

Oh, that makes me feel better.

Noah Michelson (16:31)

Here's a question, though. So for a habit, let's say I'm trying to use my seatbelt more often. What is. What is my reward for that? You know, is my reward that I'm just going to be safer? But that's not that sexy for me. Like, that's not that motivating. So if we're trying to do a habit that isn't that rewarding, how do we do that?

Dr. Wendy Wood (16:51)

Well, you know, it took several things. It took redesigning seatbelts in cars so that they are almost automatic, right? Easy to pull on. And if you don't put them on, they beep at you, right? So there's that constant irritating reminder that, that you're not wearing your seatbelt. There's also legal issues in most states. In fact, only one state, I think doesn't have a seatbelt law. Those are more sticks than carrots. But getting rid of that annoying pinging is really. That. That's pretty rewarding.

Noah Michelson (17:34)

That is rewarding.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (17:35)

I think also fear is a motivator. My new food consumption habits are sheerly out of fear of like, like, you know, I have high cholesterol. I've had to, you know, chill out with the bacon and stuff because I've seen in my community what happens if you continue to eat these foods. So do you think fear is also a motivator for habits to form?

Dr. Wendy Wood (17:58)

I'm trying to think of research that has looked at fear and habit formation. There's no reason why it wouldn't.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (18:07)

Okay.

Dr. Wendy Wood (18:07)

But I don't know of research that I can say.

Noah Michelson (18:10)

Yes, I guess you could spin that though as well and say, yeah, it's your fear of what will happen if you don't eat better, but also it's your desire to be healthier.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (18:19)

Yes.

Noah Michelson (18:20)

So maybe it's just how you're looking at it.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (18:22)

Yes.

Dr. Wendy Wood (18:23)

Then what it is is it's reassuring when you do the right thing. And you know, one of the things that I think is so funny in the nutrition literature is that people are certain they have preferences over what kinds of food they like to eat and they only want to eat certain stuff. They don't want to eat other things. But research shows that if you expose yourself to food, new foods often enough, you actually kind of get used to them and you might even start to kind of like them as you change your behavior and start eating in a healthier way. It may be that your tastes are slightly changing too over time. I don't know if you've noticed.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (19:14)

No, it's already happening. It's definitely happening to me. And another sexy thing is when you get your next cholesterol report and it's like much lower.

Noah Michelson (19:20)

Positive reinforcement.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (19:21)

Positive reinforcement is all I really just thrive on.

Noah Michelson (19:25)

But it sounds like what you're saying, Dr. Wood is also. Repetition is really the superhero here when we're trying to make habits. And repetition is the thing that the more that we do something, the more that it sticks.

Dr. Wendy Wood (19:36)

You got it. That is the key to forming habits.

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Noah Michelson (22:44)

Yeah, I think, and I think for a lot of people who are, who are thinking of a resolution right now that they want to do, and they're saying every single January I say, I'm going to lose weight or quit smoking or whatever it is, maybe sometimes they just haven't set themselves up for it right in the way that they need to. And again, like you said, having everything in place, taking your phone out of your bedroom, having the good reading light, having a good book you want to read. If you don't have everything that's going to sort of lead you to it, then you're already starting off at a disadvantage.

Dr. Wendy Wood (23:13)

You need a specific behavior. Right. Habits are not like these broad things. I want to lose weight, so I'm going to have a weight loss habit that just doesn't even make sense. Instead, it's a specific behavior. You're trying to add more fruit and vegetables into your meals. You're trying to eat smaller portions. You're trying not to snack to cut out the snacking between meals. Those are specific behaviors. And when we set New Year's resolutions, we sometimes do it at this really high level that doesn't map onto any particular behavior. And then you get yourself in trouble because then you don't really have a thing to focus on and you don't have something to plan.

Noah Michelson (24:10)

Yeah. So being specific in what you're trying to do and not biting off more than you can chew.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (24:16)

I have a question about using technology, specifically apps. A lot of people use apps to drink more water, you know, to save a little money, things like that. I want to know if you think those work or if it's more individualized. Because I'm trying to learn Spanish right now. I have the Duolingo app. It's cool. I much prefer talking to my super in Spanish. I much prefer, like real life conversation. But some people really thrive off of the apps. What are your thoughts on this?

Dr. Wendy Wood (24:46)

Many apps are used for only a short period of time, particularly behavior change apps, because you have to track or monitor or do some set goals or do something else in addition to changing your behavior. And so what you're doing is you're taking something that's hard and you're adding something onto it that makes it even harder.

Noah Michelson (25:12)

Right.

Dr. Wendy Wood (25:13)

So people get tired of behavior change apps. I'm not surprised that you like talking to people, your supervisor in Spanish more than using Duolingo. People are more fun than technology. And you're actually probably more likely to learn it that way because you're more likely to repeat the behavior. I think most behavior change apps, they don't focus. They say their habit formation. I know they do. When you read what they want you to do, they want you to set goals and monitor your behavior. And they don't talk about what science knows about habits, which is you make it easy and you make it fun and you have to repeat the same thing. So they're appealing to your conscious understanding of habit, because that's what's going to buy the app is your conscious self and not the actual habit itself, which, as I said, most of us don't. Well, none of us really understand because it's part of the non conscious sense.

Noah Michelson (26:35)

If we can't form a habit, if we can't make a habit stick, I think a lot of us think like that's our fault, that is our lack of willpower, that's some kind of like moral failing on our side. What would you say to that? If someone, let's say someone's listening to this three months from, from now and they tried to get a resolution and it didn't work, what happened there and how do they get back on track?

Dr. Wendy Wood (26:59)

Well, if it's a moral failing, we all have failed in that same moral manner. Yeah, habits are just really sticky. And as we said, it's for good reason because they're really effective. I mean, we need them to function, to get through our day, so we want them to be sticky. So when many people form New Year's resolutions, it's to change behavior to do something different. The most common ones are exercise, diet, and then the, the second most common have to do with finances.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (27:42)

Right.

Dr. Wendy Wood (27:43)

And all of those things sound like they're just not much fun.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (27:47)

Correct.

Dr. Wendy Wood (27:48)

They all sound like work. Yeah, but they didn't have to be. We can wear cool clothes to the gym and then it becomes more enjoyable. So it's not a moral failing, it's just a failure to plan in the right way. It takes a lot of thought to figure out, how am I going to make it easy to not snap at all during the day? How am I going to make it easy to stop checking all of these websites that are suggesting I buy a bunch of stuff I don't really need? That takes thought and planning and understanding yourself. And you're probably going to have to try a few different options before you can figure out what it is that's really going to make a difference for you. I mean, I like to exercise. I'm one of the people that likes to exercise. And I used to be a runner and I would run early in the morning before my kids woke up and it was just like this freedom experience of being outside and I had nobody who needed me and it was wonderful. But then, you know, you get older and things change. I didn't exercise for a while. I just stopped running because I didn't know what to do. And then I bought an elliptical machine and I bought it. I didn't even rely on one in the gym. I bought it, and it's in my house. So I thought, that's making it easy.

Noah Michelson (29:31)

Right.

Dr. Wendy Wood (29:32)

But that didn't do it, because ellipticals are really boring. I had to figure out what would make it fun. I mean, wearing fun, interesting gym clothes when you're working out by yourself. That's not one of the things that does it for me. It was figuring out I could watch reality TV shows. I particularly like cooking shows. Cooking competitions.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (29:58)

Me too.

Dr. Wendy Wood (29:58)

And I don't have time any. Any other time in my day to do this, so it's become a real enjoyment for me. And I actually worked out on the elliptical this morning before we're talking, because I look forward to it now.

Noah Michelson (30:18)

Yeah, it's a treat. Yeah, that was me, too. For a while. I was on the StairMaster and I would watch all the old episodes of America's Next Top Model, and I told myself I couldn't spend real time doing that.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (30:31)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (30:32)

Um, but I could be on the StairMaster and spend 45 minutes doing that. And then I felt like I was doing a good thing, and I got my treat.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (30:40)

Okay. So you know what I'm hearing from you guys, and it's, like, illuminating to me. I think habits are really about understanding yourself and, like, being honest with yourself about what you really find enjoyable and what makes things easy for you, which is really cool. All right, I have another question, because it's kind of time appropriate. I personally don't think New Year's resolutions are great. I know a lot of people make them around this time, and a lot of people don't follow through with them. For me, January is not an appropriate time to start a new habit. I am miserable. It is gray outside. I need cake.

Noah Michelson (31:16)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (31:16)

I need, you know, my vices.

Noah Michelson (31:18)

I think I read, like, 88% of people who make a resolution end up like, jumping ships.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (31:24)

It's literally January. January in New York is. I don't even want to go there.

Noah Michelson (31:27)

Right.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (31:28)

But for me, springtime, best time to start a new habit. I stick with it. You know, I feel motivated. It's lighter outside.

Noah Michelson (31:36)

You've got more going your way.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (31:37)

Yes. The odds are with me.

Noah Michelson (31:40)

Yes.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (31:41)

So, Dr. Wood, tell me, is there a better time to start a good habit?

Dr. Wendy Wood (31:45)

Well, for many people, it's not time of year, although I completely understand your rationale. I hate winter. It makes me want to just curl up into a ball. The time to start a new habit is not so much dependent on time of year. It's probably easiest to do something outdoors in the spring and the summer if your habit involves that. The best time to start a habit when your life changes in some way. So if you move, then the cues to your old habits aren't there anymore. A lot of them have disappeared. They're not part of the new context that you're in. And so you have to think, do I really want to set up my coffee machine? And maybe it'd be better to have drip coffee, or maybe it'd be better to have espresso, or maybe I'm going to go to tea. The cues have changed, and that gives you a window of opportunity to form new habits. Old ones aren't activated anymore. And it's not just when you move. It's also when you start a new relationship. Our relationship partners are big pieces of our daily habit. They do some things, then you do other things. We're all working in sequence. If a relationship is working well, we're doing those things sort of smoothly. So starting a new relationship is another time when you have this opportunity, new cues to make new decisions. Starting a new job, having children, starting a new family, that's another time in which cues change. So it's really removing the context cues. And that's why some people report, and there is some evidence for this, that it's easiest to make changes in behavior when you're on vacation or when you have otherwise moved house, moved location, joined a whole new group of friends. There's actually some pretty good research data on that.

Noah Michelson (34:21)

Something that's disrupting your usual routine and makes room for you to then introduce.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (34:26)

Recalibrate.

Noah Michelson (34:27)

Recalibrate. That's a great way to put it. I mean, it seems like the more that we're talking, the more like you have to have this knapsack of all these different things that is gonna help you do this habit. You know, again, it's the context or disrupting the context. It's making it easier on yourself. It's maybe having a reward. Maybe it's having some sort of fear, as Raj has had, or the annoying dinging with the seatbelt, and hopefully this constellation of things. If you put them all together or some combination of them, that's going to help you.

Dr. Wendy Wood (34:57)

Exactly. Nothing in that list had to do with willpower or self control or white knuckling it through or convincing yourself with all the reasons why. And it doesn't have to do with, say, fitting into your genes at a reunion of your high school class in the summer. That's too far removed. It's immediate rewards that build Habits. And that's because habits are facilitated by something called dopamine. We all know dopamine is this neurotransmitter. It has many functions in the brain. One of the things it does is it helps to connect context and response. So it helps to build habits. And that's why immediate rewards are important. Thinking about what you're going to look like six months from now, that's not going to help you a whole lot.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (36:04)

That's right. I have a myth that I want to address. I heard that the older you get, the harder it is to either break a habit or start a new good one. I don't believe it. I have a lot of people in my life who are in their 60s and 70s who are living so joyfully because they will start a new language or start playing Sudoku or like, something. So is there any truth to that? As we age, do we get more stuck in our ways?

Dr. Wendy Wood (36:31)

It gets harder to form new habits as you get older.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (36:36)

Okay.

Dr. Wendy Wood (36:37)

Just like it does everything else.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (36:40)

Yes. God, preach. So.

Dr. Wendy Wood (36:47)

You get neural decline across the board in habits, just like everything else. I think that there's this sense that older people have a harder time forming new habits. In particular because many people stay in the same place. They're not switching jobs. They have a much more settled lifestyle, a settled context, and so they're relying on old habits that worked for them because they don't have. They don't have the stimulation or the change to form new ones. And the people you're talking about are people who are continuing to challenge themselves and expose themselves to new context.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (37:40)

And.

Dr. Wendy Wood (37:40)

And that's so important as you get older, you need to find new things. Like, if you can't run, you have to find something to do that is exercise. And for you, it may not be the elliptical. StairMaster sounds like a great alternative. So you need to keep up change, but if you stay in the same context, you're making it a little harder. You have to keep challenging yourself.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (38:13)

Makes sense.

Noah Michelson (38:14)

Doctor, one thing I was thinking about is some of this is semantics. You know, we talked about habits versus routine, but I think when it comes to something like an addiction, whether that's to smoking cigarettes, whether that's to alcohol or something else.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (38:30)

Why'd you look at me when you said alcohol?

Noah Michelson (38:33)

I didn't, but if you say wine.

Dr. Wendy Wood (38:37)

You can look at me.

Noah Michelson (38:38)

Yeah, but for someone who's really dealing with something that is an actual addiction.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (38:44)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (38:44)

This feels like a different thing where. Where you actually maybe need some medical intervention or I guess I'M saying again, like, that doesn't seem like a lack of willpower. And some of the things we're talking about here aren't necessarily going to help with trying to deal with that quote, unquote, bad habit.

Dr. Wendy Wood (39:01)

Sure, you're right. Habits are not addictions because addictions typically involve some substance that causes a physiological dependence.

Noah Michelson (39:13)

Right.

Dr. Wendy Wood (39:14)

Smoking is a good example because nicotine is extremely physiologically addictive. But habits also play a role in addiction. So many addictions also have a habit component. Like people who smoke a lot might have a pattern of pulling out a cigarette in a bar. And in fact, there was research on this. When British pubs decided to ban smoking, there were studies showing that people would still pull out cigarettes, look at them and think, oh, oh, gee, okay, not here. I have to go outside. That's actually one of the ways that tobacco control worked. It made smoking more difficult.

Noah Michelson (40:16)

Right.

Dr. Wendy Wood (40:17)

So smoking bans in public places, taxes that made it more expensive, taking the cigarettes off the shelves. So you can't easily just throw them in your shopping cart when you're walking by. You have to go ask someone for them. All of those things are ways of controlling cigarette smoking. And they were fantastically successful. They brought smoking levels down to about 12% from over 50. So that's like this wildly successful public health policy which encapsulates the habit change strategies. Friction. You put friction on things you don't want to do. You just make it harder. You make it so that you have to get out of bed and walk into the kitchen in the middle of the night if you want to look at your phone.

Noah Michelson (41:12)

Right, right.

Dr. Wendy Wood (41:14)

It's not that you can't do it. And that was one of the cool things about tobacco control. Right. They didn't outlaw it, they just made it more difficult.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (41:24)

Yeah, I'm learning a lot. This is really interesting. It's all very psychological. So, okay, for our audience and for us, what's the number one thing you would recommend if you want to start a new habit and stick to it? If you can only pick one thing?

Dr. Wendy Wood (41:37)

Well, I can't give you one. I have to give you the two.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (41:41)

Okay, I'll take it. And that is more for my money. Yeah.

Dr. Wendy Wood (41:45)

Make it easy and find something that's rewarding or make it rewarding. When research started to point to those two things in particular, I thought, this is kind of simple. And it's going to seem so obvious to people. They're going to say, you studied for so long to figure this out. But the way we do it is not by finding what's easy and enjoyable. The way we try to change our behavior is we struggle. So it actually is a very basic insight that people didn't have before. Habit research made it clear how to best change unwanted behaviors. So yes, they're ridiculously simple. Your mother probably would have told you the same thing. But instead, we're doing all the wrong things and we're learning that all the that's what the research had to show. All the wrong things don't work. That's not how people who are successful are actually doing this.

Noah Michelson (43:04)

It turns out we have been doing it wrong.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (43:06)

We have. Shocking.

Noah Michelson (43:07)

Again, Dr. Wood, thank you so much for being here. This was so illuminating.

Dr. Wendy Wood (43:12)

Yes, good fun talking to both of you.

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Noah Michelson (45:21)

Did I talk too much?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (45:23)

Can't I just let it go?

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Take a breath.

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Noah Michelson (45:57)

It's time for better in five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (46:01)

Number one, Habits are the subconscious things we do every day to get through our day.

Noah Michelson (46:06)

Number two, creating a habit relies on three key things. There, a context, there's repetition. And there's a reward or maybe many rewards.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (46:15)

Rewards. My favorite.

Noah Michelson (46:16)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (46:17)

Number three, the best way to form a new habit is to make it as easy as possible to actually do it.

Noah Michelson (46:22)

Number four, creating a new habit is often easiest when your life changes in some big way way or not big way. Moving, getting a new job, getting into a new relationship.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (46:31)

And number five, if your habit doesn't stick, it's not a moral failing. You're probably not going about it in the best way for you.

Noah Michelson (46:39)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (46:39)

All right. Noah.

Noah Michelson (46:40)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (46:40)

We learned a lot today. Was your habit forming what you thought it was?

Noah Michelson (46:45)

I don't think it was because I do think I was sort of on autopilot. And I think I also sort of beat myself up if. If I'm not doing something. I think like I'm not disciplined enough or there is something wrong with me. Yeah. It felt so nice to hear be like this is not your fault actually and you just need to set yourself up better for it.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (47:02)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (47:03)

And then that toolkit of all these different things. Have a reward, make it easier. You know, put the book in your bedroom, get the phone out of your bedroom. That made it very practical for me in a way that I had never thought about it that way before.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (47:14)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (47:15)

And I think that having these bite sized things that you do all lead up to success and I like thinking about it that way. What did you learn?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (47:23)

I just first want to say that the way we support and love each other. Each other. Yes. Others. We need to do that for ourselves.

Noah Michelson (47:30)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (47:30)

Like I think that support thing you're talking about is just like loving on yourself and making your life easier so.

Noah Michelson (47:34)

You can be and not being so hard on yourself.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (47:36)

Exactly. And for me, yeah, I hope I'm like a more of a grown toddler now because I did learn a lot and it really affirmed my weekly therapy sessions because I do think in order to form good habits, you need to know yourself really well and find out a little bit more about how you function. So that was, that was really illuminating to me.

Noah Michelson (47:57)

I also love the idea too. Like you don't have to do a resolution. You don't have to do it at this certain time of the year. Like there are just so many ways to try and start something or end something.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (48:07)

Exactly.

Noah Michelson (48:08)

I loved it. Anyway, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (48:14)

Love y'.

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All.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (48:16)

Am I Doing it Wrong Is a co production between HuffPost and Acast.

Noah Michelson (48:20)

Our producers are Eve Bishop, Carmen Borca Carillo and Malia Agadello.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (48:24)

Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter.

Noah Michelson (48:28)

Special thanks to HuffPost's head of audience.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (48:30)

Abby Williams, Head of Video Will Took.

Noah Michelson (48:32)

As well as Kate Palmer, Marta Rodriguez and Terry d'. Angelo.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (48:36)

And we're your hosts Raj Panjabi Johnson and Noah Michelson.

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