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- [00:00]
Noah Michelson
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Dr. Jenny Young
No way.
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Noah Michelson
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Dr. Jenny Young
That's really smart.
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Noah Michelson
Oh, Danny. It's Noom smart. And they start at just 149 bucks. And they're shipped to your door in seven days.
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Dr. Jenny Young
Holy smokes, that's fast.
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Noah Michelson
But not as fast as my service game. Hey, who's ready to get pickled?
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Dr. Jenny Young
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- [00:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [01:00]
Noah Michelson
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- [02:07]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi Johnson, head of identity content at HuffPost.
- [02:11]
Noah Michelson
And I'm Noah Michelson, head of HuffPost Personal.
- [02:14]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Welcome to Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [02:20]
Noah Michelson
So, Raj, you remember a year ago, we did an episode on online dating?
- [02:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes.
- [02:24]
Noah Michelson
And it was with Dr. Jenny Young, who started the burned haystack method, which is what this incredible method for online dating that basically is like, if anyone's doing any nonsense, get rid of them.
- [02:34]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yep.
- [02:35]
Noah Michelson
So in the last year, it has exploded. She now has over 130,000 members of her community.
- [02:43]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Incredible.
- [02:43]
Noah Michelson
Who are all learning how to date better because of her and the things that she's doing. And so we thought we'd bring her back.
- [02:50]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I think it's a great idea because as we can see from the emails we got, people are really thirsty for online dating and relationship content, as they should be. So I'm really glad.
- [03:00]
Noah Michelson
Worried they're doing it wrong. Yeah, they want to do it better. So we got Johnny Young back. She is, like I said, one of our favorite people. She's a professor at the University of Wisconsin, Green Bay. She has a PhD in rhetoric and discourse studies, and she uses those studies for her burned haystack dating method.
- [03:18]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Get us right, Dr. Jenny.
- [03:28]
Noah Michelson
Jenny, thank you for being back with us.
- [03:30]
Dr. Jenny Young
Oh, thank you for having me back.
- [03:32]
Noah Michelson
Really. Our pleasure. Before we get going with the questions and we got a ton of them, remind people, what is the burned haystack method?
- [03:39]
Dr. Jenny Young
Okay, so the burned haystack method is a method of using dating apps, and it's also applicable outside the dating apps, but it was originally conceived to be, you know, for using the dating apps. And the metaphor is that if you're looking for a needle in a haystack, which is what everybody's doing on the dating apps, you don't really want to spend your life picking through every single piece of hay. That's not only frustrating and demoralizing, but it's just a waste of time. The most efficient way to find a needle in a haystack in real life is to burn the haystack to the ground, and then you'll just find the needles, because metal doesn't burn. So we apply that same principle to using the dating apps. So you kind of look at it as a process of elimination. You're not going through hinge or bumble or whatever, trying to find your perfect person. Your goal is to rule people out to burn that haystack, which then allows those needles to naturally emerge. And then embedded within that, the Method is very much grounded in feminist principles. So it's intended to be protective women, non binary people, and empowering.
- [04:57]
Noah Michelson
And I think the thing we're going to hear the most here is about blocking to burn. So that is basically you are saying if someone shows you a red flag or there are things that you're seeing in the profile or the way they're interacting with you and it's not what you want, just block them and get them out of your feed.
- [05:13]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
B2B.
- [05:14]
Dr. Jenny Young
B2B, B2B. Absolutely. That's rule number four of burnt haystack dating method. There are 10 rules. That is by far the most popular one. It's like a lot of people on social media just call it the block to bur method, which is fine with me. Yeah, the apps will recycle people to you if you just swipe left. So you have to kind of take matters into your own hands and controlling that algorithm and block them.
- [05:39]
Noah Michelson
I love that. Before we get started, Raj has a question she's just burning to ask to get started. But I also just want to quickly say all of these questions that we got today are from your community, which is now at over 100,000 members on Facebook. And like you said, this is primarily for women and non binary people. But these questions actually all apply to men too, and queer people, straight people. So even though these all came from women, if you're a guy listening, I think guys are gonna get a lot out of this as well.
- [06:10]
Dr. Jenny Young
Oh, for sure. Yeah.
- [06:11]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Okay. This is, this is the one that really stuck out to me. And we have so many great ones. Roz asked why so many guys list no drama or say they're not looking for drama on their profiles. What does this signal to? I mean, what if, like, the pot calling the kettle black, like, come on.
- [06:28]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, it signals two really important things. The first is that you're dealing with someone who is probably not capable of interacting with another human being in a way that recognizes that other human being as, like a complex and three dimensional person. Okay, so, so that's problematic. And it's also. And you just sort of alluded to this. It's. It's funny how the guys screaming for no drama, usually in all caps, are the same guys who are claiming to, like, scale Mount Everest with, you know, no supplemental oxygen or, you know, they're still married, but it's all cool and everything's fine. Like, they're, they're clearly very dramatic people. So maybe they said they're like, I don't have time for any more drama.
- [07:18]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, that's so good.
- [07:20]
Dr. Jenny Young
So, yeah, I think, number one, you're revealing somebody who's not ready to, like, be an adult. Number two, and to me, this is equally concerning. The whole no drama thing is literally like the punchline of every joke about people on dating apps right now. So if you're still saying that there's almost like a social cluelessness problem, like, somebody who doesn't realize that that's not okay anymore, like, what else don't they know about? Right? Like, did they miss all of MeToo? Like, do they not know that there's a fourth wave of feminism? Like, you just. To me, it's concerning. Even if we take all the, like, heavier stuff out of it, it's just concerning from a social perspective.
- [08:09]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Agree.
- [08:10]
Noah Michelson
Yeah. And also saying no drama doesn't make drama disappear. It doesn't make people who maybe are dramatic think, that's not me. No one is like, oh, I am drama. I won't match with him. Yeah, it's just a weird thing to say.
- [08:21]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Ye. Yeah.
- [08:22]
Noah Michelson
Will you talk to us about some other red flags? We talked about those on the last show. One question we got from Anya, she said, what's your take on a profile with minimal text? It's almost all photos and they aren't really saying anything. Is that a red flag?
- [08:36]
Dr. Jenny Young
Well, okay, so I think this is a complicated answer. I generally do think it's a red flag, just in that it means you're dealing with someone who might not be taking this whole process very seriously. So Bernd Haystack is very much oriented toward people who are looking for long term monogamy. Not because I think that's like the best or some superior form of relationship, but just because I think it's the hardest thing to find on the dating apps. Like, if there's something that needs kind of a rhetorical, methodical approach, it's that. So if you've got someone who kind of hasn't taken the time to fill out the profile or answer the most basic questions, I think that's usually an indicator that they're just not that serious about it. So if you're looking for a long term monogamous partnership, it, like, odds are that's not going to be your person. However, one caveat, this seems to be more common with men's profiles than women's profiles. This sort of like, empty profile issue. I have talked to a number of men that, like, I know in real life to be good people who would be good partners and when they show me their dating app profile. I'm like, this sucks. Like, you didn't even fill it out.
- [09:49]
Noah Michelson
Right.
- [09:49]
Dr. Jenny Young
And frequently what that reveals is not so much a lack of orientation toward partnership, but a lack of faith in the dating app process, which, I mean, it's kind of understandable. That's sort of a disaster. So what we tell people in Bernd Haystack is that you use profiles to rule people out, not to rule them in. So even if a profile is completely filled out, that's still not enough information to tell you whether that person is going to be a good match for you. You just don't know. However, it's frequently very easy to tell right away that that person is not going to be a good match for you. So. And this is very much in keeping with the burning the Haystack. It's. It seems negatively oriented Reichs really, for red flags more than green flags. And you know what? Maybe it is, but it's also pragmatic. Like, it's. It's a logical application of a vetting process. So. So I would say if you come across a profile that's not fully, you know, complete, but if there's some stuff there you like, you know, maybe you like the pictures or maybe you like what's. What is there. If there's nothing that's, you know, turning you off, I would not block that person. I would at least kind of wait and see what happens.
- [11:13]
Noah Michelson
I think that's fair.
- [11:14]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, that makes sense. Absolutely. Okay. Florence asked us, why do so many guys lie about their age on their profile? What are your thoughts on this?
- [11:24]
Dr. Jenny Young
Well, they lie about their age because they want to meet younger women and they don't want to get disqualified. But this is a huge problem, and it's been a problem for a long time, and I'm surprised so many people are still doing it and then it's usually followed or not. Maybe not usually, but a lot of times, even in the profile text, it'll say something like, actually, 59, not 49. Can't get the app to change it, which is completely made up. Like, the app. There's no, like, team of people at Hinge who every day are like, oh, whose birthdays do we have to update today? You know, it all works. Like, you input your birth dates. So, like, unless these guys screwed that up, which maybe they did. That's made up. It's intentional. I mean, number one, it's a lie, right? It's. And number two, and I'm sort of borrowing this from Erica Etten, who Goes by a little nudge on Instagram. She's a dating coach. She put out a reel recently. That said, and I agree with this completely, it's not just a lie, it's a boundary violation. Because now let's say there's a woman who's, whatever, she's 30 years old and she set her age parameters from 29 to 39. The 49 year old guy who comes in lying is not only lying to her, but has already decided that it's okay to violate that boundary, which she has clearly articulated. So if the first two things you know that have happened in this budding relationship are lying in boundary violation, that's like, not great, right? In terms of how it bodes.
- [13:01]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And I'm also like, how, what's the plan here, buddy? Like, how you know you're going to show up and keep this ruse going. That's like me and my push up bra. Like, you're eventually going to find out.
- [13:13]
Noah Michelson
When I used to be on the apps, if you're a gay guy and you're like, on Grindr, if you have a number over 40, a lot of guys just will not respond to you. So I knew so many guys who would always just be 38 and they'd be 38 forever. My thing with the same thing, I was like, I just would rather weed out the people who don't want to meet me because I'm over 40, then show up and I've lied and now we have an awkward face to face. Or I'm hoping maybe you don't care, but you probably do. Yeah, let's not do that.
- [13:42]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Let's start, you know, honest with each other.
- [13:44]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [13:44]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This podcast is brought to you by eHarmony, the dating app to find someone you can be yourself with.
- [13:54]
Noah Michelson
Okay, let's be honest and talk about doing dating. Wrong. So, Raj, have you ever pretended to be into something that you're not actually into when you're on a date just so you keep the person's attention?
- [14:06]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, absolutely. I once was on a date and I am a Knicks fan, but I was pretending to be this, like, hardcore sports girly because that's what the dude was into. And I am not a sports girly.
- [14:18]
Noah Michelson
Right. So I bet even despite doing all of that, the date didn't go anywhere.
- [14:23]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It certainly did not.
- [14:24]
Noah Michelson
That's because I'd imagine the best dates we've had were the ones where we were totally and completely ourselves, not trying to jam square Pegs into round holes but enjoying a natural flow and chemistry with our date.
- [14:36]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Well, eharmony knows this and this is their whole deal now. Helping you find someone you can be yourself with.
- [14:42]
Noah Michelson
That's what true connection and compatibility are all about. Being seen and understood. And that's why folks are turning to eharmony.
- [14:49]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Eharmony's compatibility quiz brings out your personality and helps you meet people who will like you for you. They want people to like you for the right reasons, not for made up nonsense that you have to pretend to care about.
- [15:01]
Noah Michelson
So let's do dating right. We'd love for you to give eharmony a shot. Get started with their compatibility quiz for free so you can find someone you can be yourself with.
- [15:10]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Eharmony get who gets you.
- [15:15]
Noah Michelson
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- [15:45]
Dr. Jenny Young
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- [16:02]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [16:48]
Noah Michelson
Welcome back to Am I doing it wrong? We got a couple questions and I'm going to bundle them together. I think it's really interesting. It's wondering how much we should put on our profile, how quickly we let people know about something sensitive. So Anna saying she has a wait and watch cancer. And in her profile she puts that she's a cancer negotiator and she thinks it's just scaring people and she's wondering should she take that out? And then we had Kelly. She had a similar question. She lost a child seven and a half years ago, and she's saying that she finds that her loss is something that many men can't deal with. So I would love to know, when we have these things that are maybe really vulnerable or intimate, very personal, is that something we should put on our profile, or is that something we wait to talk about in person?
- [17:35]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Such a good question.
- [17:37]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah. And these are really tough positions to be in on a dating app. Like, I want to acknowledge, like, how difficult. I mean, being on a dating app is difficult for everyone. It's much, much more difficult if you're dealing with something like that. I do not think any information like that should be on a dating app profile, whether it's like, personal health data or, you know, past trauma, for. For two reasons. Number one, you might disqualify yourself from potentially really good matches in a way that you wouldn't if they met you. You know what I mean? Like, I think taken out of context and without having met a person, seeing something like that could cause someone to swipe past. Whereas if they met in real life and really liked that person, you know, then you've got, number one, a more authentic situation. Right. Like, it's a lot easier to say, I don't want to deal with that in kind of like a disembodied, detached way. But we don't do that with people in our lives that we know and care about. And, like, you know, we make those adjustments so we show up for them. Now, I don't. Depending on what it is, I don't think you should probably wait, you know, too long either. But I don't think it belongs in a dating app for that reason. And also, you know, the people you're meeting on dating apps are total strangers. They could be anybody. You don't want to, like, give them any kind of really personal information that could be weaponized or exploited or used to hurt you, where you're then piling hurt on top of hurt on top of stress. Like, I think it's just you don't want to open yourself up to that.
- [19:22]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I really love that you said that because, you know, the women that ask these questions, I know they understand that their loss is a part of their identity. It's a big part of their identity. But also, there's. I might be coming from a place where, like, this is my whole identity. It's not your whole identity, you know, and you deserve to keep some things for yourself until that first date or, like, a second or third conversation. And I think it doesn't mean that you're embarrassed about it.
- [19:46]
Noah Michelson
Right. And I also get the urge too, though, to get everything out there so that you don't get may be rejected in person. Yes, but I think this sounds right. I think that having. Being able to have the nuance in the conversation and showing up and letting them see you as a full person and not just your trauma or not just whatever you're going through, that. That seems right to me.
- [20:05]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah. I mean, there's no way you can get every single aspect of yourself in your life and who you are in a dating app, no matter what ever. Right. So that becomes part of the process is to kind of gauge when it's right to reveal which pieces of your history and information and stuff like that.
- [20:22]
Noah Michelson
This one's from Snehal, and this is a good general question. Is there a checklist of questions I should ask when I match with someone?
- [20:29]
Dr. Jenny Young
You know, this comes up in the Facebook group a lot, and when it has come up, there's like hundreds of comments on that post immediately with the questions everybody asks. One that sticks out in my mind because there's a lot of problems on dating apps with people pretending to be single when they're not. Right. Like. Like if you're. If you're poly or whatever and you're disclosing that, that's. That's fine. But we're talking about the people who are misrepresenting. Some women in the Facebook group said, instead of saying, are you in a relationship with anyone? She asks, is there anyone who believes they're in a relationship with you?
- [21:11]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [21:14]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah, that's a flip. However, I don't know. That also comes across as a little bit accusatory if there's no reason to ask it. And the other thing I would note about that is one that has come up in the Facebook group, and everybody starts weighing in with their questions. There's a lot of fantastic questions, but I've never noticed anything that seems to be like, yeah, this is what everybody goes to. It seems like the questions are all over the place. That seems to be a really, really individual decision. So I'm sort of hesitant to publish anything that categorizes that, partly because I don't think it's relevant, but also because, you know, we live in. As soon as anything like that gets published on social media, somebody then publishes the best way to answer those questions, and then people just copy. Like, so much of dating now is it's either copying and pasting, or now it's frequently AI, but AI, you know, is trained on what's already out there. So I'm really like, I feel like we're entering this era with dating app communications where we need to de. Standardize. So I'm hesitant to do anything that looks like standardizing in terms of what you say it has to be.
- [22:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's not fair because there's lovely people out there trying to meet people.
- [22:35]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, there are.
- [22:36]
Dr. Jenny Young
There really are. But I mean, that's kind of what the whole method is premised upon. There's no shortage of people. It's that the trick is getting to those lovely people. So everything about Bird Haystack is just engineered to help you do that and to do it as quickly and effectively as possible. I love that it's also applicable outside the apps. Like, I'm getting more and more messages that tell me the ways in which people are applying the method beyond the dating apps, whether it's in the dating scene in general or even totally outside the dating scene at work with family, Stuff like that. Yeah.
- [23:14]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Cause I think it's fair to say that we're looking to cut the fat and have a very intentional, meaningful, meaningful life. Community partners. Like, it makes sense.
- [23:23]
Noah Michelson
And having some boundaries and knowing what you're looking for. I think that can be applied to so many things.
- [23:28]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yes.
- [23:28]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [23:28]
Dr. Jenny Young
Oh, yeah, for sure.
- [23:30]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
So let's just talk about that first message. Let's go back to that.
- [23:33]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [23:34]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
If we're sending it, what does that look like? Should it be long? Should it be short? You said it should be specific and, like, individual. So what guidance can you give us for that?
- [23:43]
Dr. Jenny Young
I mean, I always tell people the first message should be short, but it should specifically reference something in the person's profile. Yes. And not how they look.
- [23:55]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, that's a hard one.
- [23:56]
Dr. Jenny Young
Think of substance. Yeah. And something that doesn't apply to everyone. Right. Like you look like a fun, loving person that doesn't nobody.
- [24:05]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
You look like you love to travel.
- [24:07]
Dr. Jenny Young
Right?
- [24:08]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [24:08]
Dr. Jenny Young
You look like you love to travel.
- [24:10]
Noah Michelson
When I was doing it, I would always pick something from their profile and try and make a little joke about it and, you know, and then ask a question that was going to get a response that wasn't a yes. No. I wanted to lure them into a conversation.
- [24:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Look at you.
- [24:25]
Dr. Jenny Young
Right.
- [24:25]
Noah Michelson
But can I say 85% of the time it didn't work. And not just because someone didn't like me, but it's just like people didn't know how to engage that conversation.
- [24:35]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [24:36]
Dr. Jenny Young
Right. There's a lot of people who can't really navigate a conversation.
- [24:41]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
There's a comedian on his standup who said that his first message is always, I'm going to Whole Foods. Do you need anything? Which is like so cute and funny. Like, I think we need to be a little creative. Why not?
- [24:54]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah.
- [24:55]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, that would charm me. I'd be charmed by that. I would then want the next message to be more substantial.
- [25:01]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes.
- [25:01]
Noah Michelson
You know, but yeah, get through the door, make someone smile, dazzle them a little bit.
- [25:06]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Humor is so important. I know people say that, but they don't exercise it enough.
- [25:11]
Noah Michelson
I will also say too, not everyone is funny. Not everyone is charming or clever. And so if that's not you, I also think earnestness can be a good thing too. Yeah. You know, and really having just a well crafted, earnest message I think would go a long way as well.
- [25:28]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes. Totally agree.
- [25:29]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah.
- [25:29]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by hers.
- [25:36]
Noah Michelson
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- [27:16]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [28:18]
Noah Michelson
Foreign welcome back to Am I Doing It Wrong? So here's one from Catherine. She said her number one problem with online dating is that men want to meet immediately for coffee without taking any time to get to know me and see if I'm compatible with them. I believe two people should determine some basic compatibility and establish a nice rapport before meeting. For me, that's a few days, at minimum, of texting, then a phone call. I've been told by men the only way to get to know someone is face to face. I disagree. Am I doing it wrong?
- [28:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Wait, I just have to add something to this. One of my girlfriends told me that a guy suggested that they go on a hike for their first meeting. I was like, he's gonna kill you.
- [29:01]
Noah Michelson
Like, what the fuck is that? A remote location with a mountain that he could push her off of.
- [29:07]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I'm sorry, back to life. But the audacity. What?
- [29:12]
Dr. Jenny Young
That is shockingly common. We were talking about that in the Facebook group yesterday. All the men who want to go on hikes for first things is gaffling. But to answer the question, no, she's not doing it wrong, they're doing it wrong. It's totally acceptable to expect to have a little conversation with someone before you meet. I mean, on the flip side, not like anybody wants to talk to someone for weeks before they meet, but being, you know, being willing to have a back and forth in messaging or a brief phone call or video chat, if. If you really care enough about meeting someone and like them enough to want to meet in person, you should be willing to commit that level of energy and time which Is not much. Right. Like, that's a really. A bare minimum kind of thing.
- [30:07]
Noah Michelson
I never thought I would say this, but Benji and I met on a video date. We met on Hinge, and then we had a video date. This was during the pandemic, so we couldn't meet in person even if we wanted to. And I was like, I don't want to do a video date. That sounds like a nightmare. It was so great. We chatted for an hour. We each had a drink on our coffee table that we were sipping on, and I got to know him. And I. And I was like, we have good banter. This is a person I do want to meet in person, you know, and meeting in person is always going to be different than having a video date or a phone call. But it gives you a really good idea.
- [30:40]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes, it does.
- [30:40]
Noah Michelson
If there's anything there at all. And I love that. I think it's great.
- [30:44]
Dr. Jenny Young
Video dates are a great middle ground between messaging and meeting in person for all the reasons you just said.
- [30:54]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Okay. Alyssa asked. I hate the guys. Sometimes ask, what are you looking for? And it almost always is not worth the time and effort that it takes to answer honestly. I'm a sucker for telling the truth. How would you answer this? That's a tricky one. What are you looking for? Yeah.
- [31:11]
Dr. Jenny Young
Well, okay, so I do have an answer to this. Most of the time, I would just block that one. If for some reason, I saw something in his profile that I liked, that I thought it was worth giving a chance. If his question was, what are you looking for? My response to that is always, I'm looking for someone who read my profile.
- [31:36]
Noah Michelson
Yes.
- [31:37]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Genius.
- [31:38]
Noah Michelson
I love that because you're right. If. If they are engaged and they are actively using the apps as a way to meet someone for a real relationship, then they should know what you're looking for. And if your profile. If you've done your side.
- [31:51]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah.
- [31:51]
Noah Michelson
And you put everything in your profile that says that, that's. That just seems lazy to ask that question.
- [31:56]
Dr. Jenny Young
Right.
- [31:57]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah. And weird. Yeah. I'm not into it.
- [32:00]
Dr. Jenny Young
That's really erring on the side of generosity. Right. Even to respond to it that way. But it does at least give someone a chance to be like, oh, this person's serious. And then if they are serious too, they will go back and read the profile. And, yeah, usually there's no response to that or the response is aggressive, which are obviously, you know, blocked. Burns. But if you're going to respond, I think that's how you should respond.
- [32:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah. Feels right. Yeah. And again, y'all, there's a. There's a time and place for fuck shit. For, you know, really, you know, a good time. Not a long time. But this is what we're talking about, is not it? We're looking for a long term exactness. Yeah.
- [32:45]
Noah Michelson
Through this method.
- [32:46]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah. We had a different spin on that question come up in the Facebook group yesterday. And the question was, what do you do for fun? Or what do you like to do for fun? And my answer to that is, for fun. I go out on amazing dates with men who read my profile.
- [33:02]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, so good.
- [33:03]
Dr. Jenny Young
Because I think that communicates too, like there actually is a way to be successful.
- [33:09]
Noah Michelson
Right.
- [33:09]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah. You're not doing it right now, but people are. Right.
- [33:14]
Noah Michelson
Yes.
- [33:15]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [33:15]
Noah Michelson
And I also want to say really quickly, I think that a listener could hear some of these responses and think like, well, that's sassy or unnecessarily so. And what we're talking about, though, is in the, the greater context of dating online and how many people waste your time and how, you know, if you again, are earnestly trying to do this and your profile is great and they're asking these questions means they haven't been listening or paying attention and they're wasting your time. There are going to be those people that you might be like, you know what? They asked me one of these questions and I feel like they're actually genuinely asking. They're just clueless.
- [33:49]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [33:49]
Noah Michelson
And maybe you're going to move forward and you're going to respond.
- [33:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [33:52]
Noah Michelson
But for the, you know, majority of them, get them out of your life. Move on to the people who actually really seem to be engaged with what you're doing.
- [34:01]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And I have to say, being direct is very gendered.
- [34:04]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [34:04]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I think, like, we don't let. When women are direct, we see it as something else. It's time to reshape that for all of us.
- [34:10]
Noah Michelson
I love that.
- [34:11]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [34:11]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah. And also that's a good way to test for women who are dating men. That's a good way to test if you're talking with a man who's okay with a woman being direct.
- [34:22]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
A progressive, open man. Yeah.
- [34:24]
Dr. Jenny Young
Other problems, you know.
- [34:26]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Totally agree.
- [34:26]
Noah Michelson
We got two questions that I'm going to sort of bundle together. Again, they're from Sarah and Kelly, and it's about this idea of the slow burn or potential. And they're both saying that, you know, they've. They've heard a lot of people say that you need to give guys a chance, that you shouldn't just be dealing Looking for the spark. You shouldn't abandon a potential relationship because the spark isn't there after the first or second date. You should always lean into slow burns, look for potential. And they're saying when I do that, it doesn't work out if there isn't the spark. I'm actually not feeling it. What are your feelings about slow burn versus a spark?
- [35:03]
Dr. Jenny Young
Okay, I've kind of, like, evolved my thinking on this because I think I would have been at one point, I think I would have been one of those people who said, now, like, you got to have the spark. Chemistry is real. I do think chemistry is real. I think there's actually a lot of evidence to support that. However, the dating app arena is different than how dating used to work, right? Because we. We've all heard these stories or even been these people where you worked with someone for, you know, whatever, three years before you realized, oh, I kind of like that. Right? Like that. That does happen. It happens in all kinds of contexts. Whereas with the dating apps, we kind of don't allow that to happen because you're meeting total strangers. So you're going from zero to kind of like, do I want to spend the rest of my life with this person in a romantic partnership? And there's no, like, time for. For anything to develop below the level of discourse, right? So we're like, at the chemical level, there are people, you know, that feel immediate chemistry too. And that. That's great when that happens. I think some of the best writing that been done on this topic is Logan Urie's book How to Not Die Alone or How not to Die Alone. There's a chapter titled Fuck the Spark, and she's a behavioral scientist, and she presents a lot of data to suggest that what people associate with spark or chemistry is frequently not love. In a lot of cases, it's fear or trauma that we sort of like, or anxiety that we misinterpret and misassociate. So there's that, but there is also. I mean, the slow burn can be real too. And what I would say to people who say, okay, but that's not me. I need an immediate spark. That's fine. But there have been a lot of people who had just as much conviction as you do right now, and they turned out to be wrong. Like, I've read over and over and over again these narratives that say there really wasn't any chemistry, but I liked him, I respected his values. We had a lot in common, and it started with a few little sparks on maybe date seven or eight. And now I am madly in love, and this is the best relationship I've ever been in. And it's hard to deny when you keep hearing that story over and over again. Now, that's. There's a difference between being spark neutral and being turned off by someone.
- [37:41]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes. Yeah.
- [37:42]
Dr. Jenny Young
Actively turned off. Then no. Like, that's not gonna work. And I don't think anybody is suggesting that you should try to override that.
- [37:51]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [37:51]
Dr. Jenny Young
If it's neutral, it could get better. But again, like, if. If that message is. Is so, like, offensive to people, you know, maybe that's not true for them, and maybe. Maybe it's not worth hanging out to find out. I don't know.
- [38:09]
Noah Michelson
I will say so. I used to be just, like, the hoochiest hooch.
- [38:12]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [38:13]
Noah Michelson
And I like to hook up the first night I met a guy. And those relationships, for me, never. Never lasted. And it was actually a lot of times my fault where once I'd had sex with this guy, I wasn't interested anymore.
- [38:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [38:25]
Noah Michelson
And when I met Benji, because of the pandemic, we had to do a video date. Then we had to have a drink outside, six feet apart from each other. Then we had to go on a walk.
- [38:35]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And this is very hot, though.
- [38:37]
Noah Michelson
Like, it was. But I got into him on a level that I never would have if we had met and we'd had sex that first night. And I was like, okay, I did that. I'm done.
- [38:46]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [38:48]
Noah Michelson
It totally changed the way that I thought about relationships and the way that I saw myself in a relationship. And so, I mean, I did have a spark when I met him, so it's not the same situation. But taking that time and really getting to know him before we got physical, that also really. I don't know, it was a game changer for me.
- [39:05]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah. That's fascinating.
- [39:07]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [39:08]
Dr. Jenny Young
And circumstantial in your case. Right. Because of the pandemic. But I remember reading something about how the pandemic did, in some ways, improve dating, at least for a period of time. Because of exactly what you just said. It kind of preempted hookup culture for a period of time, at least for. For, you know, a significant percentage of people dating and allowed some actual relationships to develop that then survived the pandemic.
- [39:35]
Noah Michelson
So who would have thought magical things can happen when the clothes stay on? Not me.
- [39:40]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I know. But you know what I'm hearing also? I'm hearing that, like, changing your patterns are beneficial sometimes.
- [39:47]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [39:47]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Like, I know myself and a lot of people who've like, dated the same way when we were dating. We're like, the shit isn't working. It isn't working. Maybe change something about what you're doing. Like, the definition of crazy or whatever is, you know, insane, is to, like, do the same thing over and over and expect a different outcome.
- [40:05]
Noah Michelson
Well, and that's why, again, like, something like the Burnt Haystack method is also maybe something good for people to try because it does give them not only a new thing to try, but also a framework with. With actual rules to follow. And really, see, maybe this is a different way to do it.
- [40:18]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I think philosophies different from your own are always worth exploring. Like, why not?
- [40:23]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, okay. Andrea said, I deleted the apps months ago and I'm having better success in the wild. All right, Andrea, get it. But it's still a numbers game, and there are more guys on the apps than in person. Where do the normal guys who are 35 to 50 hang out? That is not church.
- [40:43]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah, that's. That's a great question. So I think there's a couple of things working in Andrea's favor. What one thing is that people are like, because they're rebelling against the apps, I think people are more willing to extend themselves in person in a way that they maybe weren't a few years ago. And there's a lot of initiatives to facilitate in person meetings. You know, there's a. A lot of organizations that are springing up and arranging, like, good old fashioned singles events. Like there used to be singles dances right back in the. Whatever. And there's also things like, I don't know if you've heard, I don't know the name of the company. Have you heard about this brick wall? And it's in New York City?
- [41:25]
Noah Michelson
No.
- [41:27]
Dr. Jenny Young
You'll find it if you Google this. Okay. There's a company that started this thing on a brick wall, and I think it's in Central park, but I don't really know. People go to the wall, they have a Polaroid taken. The people that work at the company are like, there. They take a Polaroid, they write with a pen, like, their name and phone number and a few things about themselves, and they put it on the brick wall and it's become like a gathering spot because everybody who goes there knows they want to meet someone, you know, and they live in that neighborhood or whatever. And so you can either like, show up at this brick wall and maybe run into someone who you already know is there looking for a date, or you just, you know, see someone you like. And you can then call them because their number or their email or whatever people share is there their socials. So there's things like this happening. But to answer the question, highly geographically dependent, right? Like if you live in a small town in North Dakota, like there's. You can't go to the Brook Wall Central Park. So what I always tell people, if you want to meet someone in real life, I think the best thing you can do is get yourself involved in things you like. Like not because you don't want to like go through the earth looking to meet someone that does not seem efficient. But if you love to run and you join a running club or you love to read and you join a book club, you're just going to encounter a like minded group of people. That seems to up your chances.
- [42:58]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
In my culture, in South Asian culture, there's a lot of setups, right. So like, so a lot of my friends have asked other friends, do you know anyone? Nice for me, I think that's lovely.
- [43:08]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [43:09]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
You know, it can be tricky if it's at the same friend group and things like that. But I found it to be really successful, you have a little bit of vetting going on and you know, you can think of someone, a cousin's cousin who single and whatever and you're like, that might work, go on a little date or whatever. I love the idea of like, you know, a little setup.
- [43:26]
Dr. Jenny Young
I think the odds of that working out are so much higher than, I mean, definitely than a dating app and definitely more than, you know, just hoping for the stars to align. I have a friend who a couple of years, maybe it was, maybe it was three years ago in recent years and she's about my age. She put. Now she's in marketing and advertising, lives in northern Wisconsin. So this is not like a cool population dense area. I can say that because I live here. She put together like a marketing sheet about herself, a one page PDF and it looked great because she does that. It was very visually appealing. It had a bunch of interesting things about her and she put it on Facebook. So just her personal Facebook, but we all have at least a few hundred Facebook connections, right. And they're people that you know in real life and like, I don't know that I would be brave enough to do this, but she did it and she was just like, hey, I'm this age, I really want to meet someone. I don't want to go on the dating apps. If you know anybody, share this with them. And in her case, somebody shared it the first week and she met someone and they just got married.
- [44:40]
Noah Michelson
Wow.
- [44:40]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, my God. Goosebumps.
- [44:43]
Dr. Jenny Young
I know. And he's lovely. Like, they're perfect together. I don't know what the odds are of that happening, but I don't know if you're open to that. It might not be a terrible idea.
- [44:55]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I love it. There are ways to put yourself out there.
- [44:59]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah.
- [45:00]
Noah Michelson
I also like the idea of the running group or the book club, because even if you don't find someone, if those are things you love, then you're going to probably meet friends or you're going to have a great run every week. And so you're not just making your life revolve around dating per se, you're also enriching your life in general.
- [45:16]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And that's an underrated side effect of looking for someone to be in a relationship. You might make friends.
- [45:21]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [45:22]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, my God, that's so cool.
- [45:23]
Noah Michelson
Which is also not easy these days.
- [45:25]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
No, not easy.
- [45:26]
Noah Michelson
You need an episode on that. We're going to get one. On making friends. Do you want to do the last one, Raj?
- [45:30]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Let's see. Michelle wants to know, if you were engaged as a consultant to a designing a new dating app, what are some key things you'd advise to work differently?
- [45:40]
Noah Michelson
I love that.
- [45:41]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Good one.
- [45:42]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah. So I actually wrote an article about this recently. I'm going to pull it up here because I had like three or four takeaways. Okay. Number one. And I think this is maybe the biggest one. Abide by the preferences that you're asking people to dictate because none of the apps do. So if I'm, you know, whatever, a 50 year old woman and I want to meet. I'm older than that, but let's. And I want to meet a liberal man within 40 miles of Milwaukee. Like Hinge will immediately send me some dude in a maga hat from Fargo. Like, it's just. It's like they. They don't. It's like it almost doesn't mean anything. I mean, I guess, I guess it means something if they have those people available, but if they don't, instead of just sending fewer matches or saying, we don't have anybody, they send you people who are like, wildly beyond your preferences. So I think the apps, if they're going to have people dictate bout, then the apps themselves need to respect those boundaries. I think the apps need to get a lot more committed to kicking out bad actors, you know, women in particular. And this becomes very intersectional in terms of what your identity is. But, like, we know that Women of color, women with disabilities, women of a certain age, whether that's older or younger, like, absorb a lot of toxicity, aggression, being fetishized, you know, abuse, exploitation, manipulation, all these terrible things. And too frequently when they report this to the. To the dating apps, the dating apps kind of like, you know, sort of mollify them and say, oh, you know, even, like, I read one a couple of days ago that said, like, good for you for sticking up for yourself. But we're not clear if they took that guy off the app, you know, so, you know, if there's a record right there in your own dating app of all this stuff going on, like, get those. Get those people out. So I think that's also really important.
- [47:53]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
These are really good ones.
- [47:54]
Noah Michelson
Yeah. It just seems to me like these dating apps are businesses and they want people to spend money and they want us to be on their swiping. And so it's not maybe in their best interest to actually run their ships as tightly as they should run them.
- [48:11]
Dr. Jenny Young
Yeah.
- [48:12]
Noah Michelson
Which means we need things like burned haystack or it. It falls on us then to really set our boundaries, to really know what our preferences are and to block, to burn if we're not getting that.
- [48:25]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I think, yeah, I do.
- [48:27]
Dr. Jenny Young
And I agree that they need to remain true. Like, I, you know, the dating apps are in trouble. Like, they're. They're all in financial trouble and Gen Z hates them, which is like a problem for them. Right. They kind of need Gen Z, so I feel like there's some really easy things they could do to save themselves, but so far they are not doing those things, so remains to be seen, I guess.
- [48:50]
Noah Michelson
Jenny, I was actually feeling a little anxious about this episode just because I was like, I don't know. Dating is trauma so often, but I feel so much better, actually.
- [48:59]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's good.
- [49:01]
Noah Michelson
Thank you for being here again.
- [49:02]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
We love it. These ideas are smart and amazing, so we're so thankful for you.
- [49:07]
Dr. Jenny Young
Oh, you guys are the best. Thank you.
- [49:13]
Noah Michelson
It's time for better in five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode.
- [49:18]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Number one, people who lie about their age are disrespecting a boundary. It's a huge red flag. It needs to be treated as such.
- [49:26]
Noah Michelson
Number two, Jenny advises not putting super personal info on your profile. Wait until you can have a more nuanced conversation about it. A few dates in.
- [49:36]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Number three, your first opening message should always be personalized and ideally, cute and funny. If nothing else, earnest is great too.
- [49:46]
Noah Michelson
Don't be pressured into meeting right away. Establishing a bit of a rapport is always a good thing.
- [49:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And number five, there's a lot to be said about butterflies and having that first spark, but it's not the be all end. And potential can lead to great things, too.
- [50:01]
Noah Michelson
Okay, Raj, you're no longer dating, but what did you learn from today's episode?
- [50:05]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I learned a lot. I think a lot of this advice really just spills into every part of our lives, just communication wise. And I think the thing I'm thinking about most is being very honest and authentic and direct. Again, like I said, it can be very gendered. I think I want to be less afraid to say what I want in a compassionate but honest way.
- [50:27]
Noah Michelson
I love that.
- [50:28]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
What about you?
- [50:28]
Noah Michelson
I agree. I think so much of this is applicable to just every part of your life. I love the idea of setting up boundaries. I think there's so much shenanigans happening in general and that anytime you can sort of say, this is what I want. And I'm not gonna compromise on that. Whether it's on dating apps or at work or, you know, friendships, I felt like that seems. Seems really useful.
- [50:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's powerful.
- [50:52]
Noah Michelson
Yeah. Anyway, until next time, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.
- [51:00]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Love y'all.
- [51:01]
Noah Michelson
Do you have something you think you're doing wrong? Email us@amidoingitwrongoughpost.com and let us know.
- [51:14]
Dr. Jenny Young
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Noah Michelson
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Dr. Jenny Young
That's right. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that empowers you to save more, spend less, and take control of your financial life.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Basically, you can see all of your.
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Noah Michelson
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Dr. Jenny Young
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- [52:30]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Allinone what makes a great pair of.
- [52:33]
Dr. Jenny Young
Glasses at Warby Parker, it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost.
- [52:39]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Their designer quality frames start at $95, including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant and anti reflective coatings and UV.
- [52:49]
Dr. Jenny Young
Protection and free adjustments for life.
- [52:51]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
To find your next pair of glasses.
- [52:53]
Dr. Jenny Young
Sunglasses or contact lenses, or to find.
- [52:56]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
The Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com My dad.
- [53:03]
Dr. Jenny Young
Works in B2B marketing.
- [53:04]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.
- [53:16]
Noah Michelson
Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be to be.