← Am I Doing It Wrong?
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- [00:00]
Narrator/Advertiser
Not every sale happens at the register. Before AT&T business Wireless checking out customers on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses. It's crazy what people will say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes hold.
- [00:18]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
That means I can focus on the
- [00:19]
Narrator/Advertiser
task at hand and make an extra sale or two.
- [00:22]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Sometimes I do miss the bonding time. Sometimes.
- [00:25]
Noah Michelson
AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC
- [01:00]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
par Le Tu francais hablas par l'. Italiano.
- [01:05]
Noah Michelson
If you've used Babbel, you would. Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers. Biological Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acast spelled B-A B B E L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply.
- [01:56]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi Johnson, head of identity content at HuffPost.
- [01:59]
Noah Michelson
And I'm Noah Michelson, head of HuffPost Personal.
- [02:02]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Welcome to Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [02:09]
Noah Michelson
So, Raj, before we start with what we're doing wrong, I want to tell you that Benji, my partner, did something very right. He proposed over the weekend. Get it?
- [02:21]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Marital bliss.
- [02:22]
Noah Michelson
I wanted to tell our listeners too. I feel like they're family at this point. So I never thought I was gonna get married. And as a queer person, I kind of was like, maybe marriage is a bad thing. I hear you, but it's come a long way and I wanna be protected. I wanna make sure something happens to one of us. We can see each other in the hospital. All these things we wouldn't have thought we'd have to think about. But in our current world, we do. So, yeah, he proposed In Mexico City. We were on a trip. He hired 11 Mariachi people to come in and play Rihanna's We Found Love.
- [02:53]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
That's amazing.
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Noah Michelson
Yeah. Which is always like the song I said I would walk down the aisle to if I did get married.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Okay, well, when you guys walk down the aisle, I can sing it.
- [03:00]
Noah Michelson
Oh, I would love that. You basically are the Rihanna in my life.
- [03:02]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Listen, I was fishing for that.
- [03:04]
Noah Michelson
You got it.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Well, I am giddy. And I'm so happy you share that with everyone because.
- [03:09]
Noah Michelson
Thanks.
- [03:09]
Narrator/Advertiser
Love you guys.
- [03:10]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And they love you back.
- [03:10]
Noah Michelson
Thank you. Yeah, it's really special now that we got that out of the way.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Speaking of forever.
- [03:15]
Noah Michelson
Yeah. I have something scarier to ask you. Are you doing forever chemicals wrong?
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Oh, my God.
- [03:23]
Noah Michelson
That's quite the transition.
- [03:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It is quite the transition. Til death do us part. I am not doing them right for sure. I don't totally know where forever chemicals are lurking. They just have the word forever in them, which is really scary when paired with chemicals. I need to know more about them so I can try and do my whole harm reduction thing. Cause the stuff that I do know is kind of scary.
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Noah Michelson
Yeah.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
What about you?
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Noah Michelson
Same thing. This is one of those episodes where I know nothing. I'm going into it totally blind.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Okay.
- [03:52]
Noah Michelson
And I'm curious about what we're gonna find out. I'm a little terrified. Listen, but the whole point of this show is to do it better. So once you know better, you do better.
- [04:02]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
That's right.
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Noah Michelson
And I feel like that's gonna happen
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
today and we're all gonna go through it together.
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Noah Michelson
So let's go. All right, so we got Tasha Stoiber. She has a PhD and she is a senior scientist at the environment, where, get this. She researches contaminants in water, indoor air pollution, and chemicals and consumer products.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Dr. Stoiber is the real deal. Let's go. Dr. Stoiber, thank you so much for being with us. We're so excited to have you.
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Thank you. Great to be here.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Not excited to talk about forever chemicals, Though I do have to tell you, I'm like. The term forever chemicals is so daunting. But we are going to. You know, our whole intention is to demystify.
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Noah Michelson
We need to know.
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
So can we start by just asking, what are forever chemicals, AKA pfas.
- [04:47]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
So Forever Chemicals, or pfas. Pfas. I think most people might know kind of the brand names. Things like Teflon, that's going to be in your cookware pans, things like that. Or Scotchgard. People might Remember Scotchgard from carpets in the 1980s? So most people, I think, are familiar with the kinds of brand names and products that these chemicals might be in. PFAs, PER and polyfluoroalkyl substances, or as you said, forever chemicals. These chemicals all have one thing in common, is that they have these carbon and fluorine bonds in them. That's the commonality between the thousands of different types of these. And it's this bond that gives these chemicals their specific properties, that makes them sought after in all of these different products. It gives them things like stain resistance, wrinkle resistance, nonstick. But it's also the reason that these chemicals are a problem and that they're building up in the environment is that they don't break down. And that's where you get that name. Forever Chemicals.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
That's kind of terrifying. Yeah.
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Noah Michelson
When. When did these become a thing? I mean, I grew up in the 80s. I don't remember people talking about them, but I do obviously remember Scotchgard and Teflon and everything. When did we start to actually describe them as such and also start to freak out about them?
- [06:27]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah, that's another good question. So these chemicals were made decades ago. They were made actually in about the 1930s. They just exploded in use in the decades afterwards in, like, the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s. But what industry didn't reveal was that, you know, their own scientists and their own doctors knew that they were harmful. They knew that they were causing harm to workers. They knew that they were linked to cancer. They knew that they were linked to birth defects and that they were getting in the drinking water. But they kept this information from the public for years and years and kept making the chemicals and kept making the products and using this as a marketing tool to sell things to people and to make tons of money.
- [07:19]
Noah Michelson
Ah, the joys of capitalism.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
I know. And you know what? I kind of get it right, because they created this thing in a lab or these substances that made all of our lives easier. Like, think about your eggs sliding off of a pan, and you're like, yay.
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Noah Michelson
Awesome.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
No one's at first gonna be like, oh, what is this doing to us? Like, what could this. What could this sorcery be? And the sorcery is forever chemicals. Can you tell us a little bit about how widespread they are? I mean, I feel like we've reached a fever pitch, and people are like, oh, my God, they're everything. They're in everything. They're in your shoes, and you're like, face. Like, God alone knows. Like, I don't know what to believe. How widespread are they at this point?
- [07:54]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
They are extremely widespread and especially in consumer products. I mean, even in things that you might not expect, like cosmetics, for example, like dental floss, your leggings, like clothing, outdoor clothing, shoes, waterproof gear, things like that, as well as a lot of things in your home, like carpets, stain treatments on furniture, drapes, even like bedding and whatnot can have them in them. And so it's kind of exploded in all of these uses. But when you take a step back and you look at all of this, you don't really need to have all of these items in your home. You know, if you cook with a cast iron pan and you season it really well, it will last you probably your lifetime versus one of these Teflon pans that gets scratched up and looking pretty bad, you know, in like a year, and then you have to replace it anyway. So, I mean, you know, they're, they're used in all these products, but in a lot of cases, we just really don't need them. And it's just been used, like I said before, kind of as this marketing tool to sell people a lot of stuff that we really don't need.
- [09:13]
Noah Michelson
What are forever chemicals doing to our bodies? You know, you mentioned earlier that people who are working to create them are working in the plants that were making them were getting cancer or getting sick. But so what are they potentially doing to all of us?
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
And I want to add on by asking about the research about this, like, how do you guys know what it's doing to us?
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
We know from studies with animals and also studies in humans. I can actually point back to, you know, one of the largest exposure studies that was done was looking at exposure of pfas to a community in West Virginia where the production, original production facility was for pfoa. It's one of the largest exposure studies that took place and was required as part of a lawsuit in that community where they looked at nearly 70,000 people. They were highly exposed since there was releases of the chemicals from the production facility into the water, into the air. And so this was a unique community that had been highly exposed for years and years and years. And this was one of the original studies that found that linked PFOA, or you might see it referred to as C8. That's the number of carbons for that base molecule that people are being exposed to. And they found that it was linked to six health effects, you know, including testicular cancer, kidney cancer, high cholesterol, ulcerative colitis, and Pregnancy induced hypertension. And I mean, that was almost 15 years ago or so now. And there have just been, you know, evidence of study after study, hundreds of studies in both animals and people that have shown these links. And usually we study people, you know, at the population level and you look at exposure. There was just a very recent study that looked at a paper that came out that looked at a community that was upstream, they got their drinking water upstream of a highly contaminated site with pfas. And they compared that to a community that was just downstream of that, that got their drinking water from downstream of that site. And so it's a really similar community. Everyone was in this 3 mile radius of this contaminated site. And then what they found for the people that lived downstream of the site, there was much higher risk of negative birth outcomes as a result of this. Either preterm birth, low birth weight, or even increased infant mortality. So, you know, we talk about PFAS kind of as legacy chemicals, kind of the original ones that we think about PFOA and pfos. But there are all of these replacement chemicals as well. They might look a little different, they might have different chemical structures, but they still have that same commonality in that they have the carbon and fluorine bonds. And what we're finding is similar health effects as we study these replacements, that they have some, these similar health effects. And the whole class of chemicals, they bioaccumulate and they're very persistent in the environment.
- [12:54]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
That is diabolical.
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Noah Michelson
No, this makes me think of Erin Brockovich, which is one of my favorite movies ever. It's one of those movies when it comes on tbs, no matter what I'm doing, I sit down and watch it. And not to make light of what you're talking about because it's obviously devastating for these communities. But I'm also wondering, I guess I have two questions. Let's start with the first one. Is that so I can imagine if these chemicals are being dumped directly into groundwater or that kind of thing, like high concentration. High concentration. But what have we found just from using, like if I'm using a Teflon frying pan, how great of a danger is that if I'm using that twice a week or, you know, people who aren't being exposed directly to the chemicals from groundwater in huge concentrations, but are still obviously getting them from leggings or getting them from these other places where. What kind of danger are we in?
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah, that's another great question. I'm glad you asked it that way. And so exposure, it depends a lot on kind of who you are, what life stage you're in and where you're living. As I mentioned before, some of the highly exposed populations are people that live next to production facility or they work or, or directly, you know, are working in an industry. Those are some of your more highly exposed populations. Or I would also place in that highly exposed group firefighters. Since for a very long time affff firefighting foam used pfas, there are alternatives now that don't have PFAS in them. But this firefighting foam, you know, used at airports, at various facilities and military bases, things like that, again where that was used, also led to kind of extreme levels of contamination. But then you also mentioned too, what about everybody else on the other side? And so we have all of these releases from all of these different sources. You have industry, you have the firefighting foam, you have consumer products, which has led to kind of these slow releases from wastewater from landfills, things like that. So we have low level contamination in a lot of different areas as well. It's pervasive in the drinking water of millions of Americans. There's a wide range of levels of contamination from highly contaminated to very low levels. And we are concerned about these lower levels of exposure as well, since they are also linked to health impacts. Even at just very low levels in your drinking water. We're talking parts per trillion, which is just a fraction of a drop in an Olympic size swimming pool, even smaller than that. These are linked to health effects as well. For example, your immune system is one of the most sensitive parts of your body that can be negatively impacted by PFAS exposure. And just extremely low levels can affect how your immune system responds and produces antibodies, things like that. So we are concerned about these low levels of exposure. And as I mentioned, it depends on your life stage as well. For example, younger children are more susceptible to exposures, carpets and rugs. Again, you know, a lot of companies are responding and phasing things out and you can get more products now that don't have PFAS in them. But you know, when carpets and rugs were treated with pfas, you know, children, for example, if you're crawling around on the floor, kicking up dust, putting your hands to your mouth and whatnot, you know, their number one exposure route was the dust. And you might not think about that. But so it kind of depends, you know, do I live in a highly exposed area? Is my drinking water contaminated? Do I have small children? So all of those exposure pathways might be a little bit different, kind of depending on who you are, but you know we are concerned about those low level exposures also.
- [17:34]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
See this is why at the end of the day when it's like do I want water or am I martini? I'm gonna do the Martin. I joke. Is my Brita filter doing anything to potentially help this?
- [17:46]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Our organization does have an online tool that you can use to look up your drinking water to find out if you have PFAS in your drinking water. It's EWG's tap water database. You can type in your zip code or your utility and you can find out if there's contamination. And if there is, you know one of the easiest ways to reduce that exposure is to filter your drinking water water. A carbon filter is, is effective or a reverse osmosis filter is effective. But you know we get that question a lot. If the Brita filter is, I mean it, it can reduce some of the PFAs. Most of the Brita filters, I know there's a couple different kinds and levels of the Brita filters but kind of your, your standard, regular conventional Brita filter it will reduce some of it. But it wasn't designed specifically for pfas. But there are other pitcher filters for example, there are other under sink filters that will work pretty effectively to reduce a lot of the PFAS in your drinking water. Your multi stage carbon filter works pretty well and reverse osmosis is pretty, is the most effective. It can be a little bit more expensive compared to the other filter types. But the RO filters work really well to reduce PFAs.
- [19:12]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, good to know.
- [19:13]
Noah Michelson
We got a bunch of questions from listeners about more specific places that they're worried about maybe finding them. So I think we're just going to go through some of them. Another one. I think people probably remember this A couple years ago everyone was freaking out about the black plastic spatulas or cookware and there were all these articles saying if you have a black plastic spatula or spoon like throw that out immediately.
- [19:37]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
So specific.
- [19:38]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, the forever chemicals. Then other people were saying actually no, they're not bad. What do you know about it? Where have we landed? Should everyone be tossing out although all those utensils immediately?
- [19:49]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
This plastic issue is interesting because it is related. If you're using, you know, if you're using those Teflon non stick coated pans in the kitchen, you don't use a metal spoon with that, you use plastic. And so it's kind of this, it's kind of this double punch of exposure in the kitchen that you don't, that you don't want, you know, if you're using a cast iron pan, like you use either a metal spatula or, you know, a wooden spoon or whatever. So there was a lot about these black plastic spatulas. And so the issue there was if they're made with recycled plastic, if you're thinking black plastic, like what has black plastic in it, old TV cases or electronics cases. And if that type of plastic is recycled, what they were finding was flame retardants that were added to those electronics were now being found in your black plastic spatula. Oh God. And there were, you know, there was some, there was some discussion around it because I think there was a calculation error in the paper and whatnot, but it didn't change. The conclusion at all is that you probably don't want to be using plastic in the kitchen for a number of different reasons and that, you know, eventually it's going to melt and there can be, you know, leftover chemicals from whatever the plast in its previous life, whatever that plastic was. So they were finding flame retardants in these black plastic spatulas. We generally recommend to, if you can, you know, try to phase out that plastic in your kitchen as much as possible. Try to stick with cast iron, metal, glass, stainless steel, things like that, that's generally the way that you want to go to try to avoid those plastics because eventually it's going to break down in the heat. And you know, I don't think I've ever seen a plastic utensil that that's looked like it was in good shape after you used it in the kitchen. Yeah, so definitely like opt for like your, your wood or metal spatulas and utensils in the kitchen.
- [22:22]
Noah Michelson
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- [22:23]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
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Noah Michelson
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
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- [23:36]
Noah Michelson
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- [24:23]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
All right, so when in doubt, pull your wood out.
- [24:27]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Like, perfect.
- [24:27]
Noah Michelson
Raj loves a little rhyming couplet to
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
help remember things, especially if it's, like, kind of dirty.
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Noah Michelson
Yeah.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
I use wooden spatulas. Okay. Good to know that I'm doing that for a purpose.
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Noah Michelson
Right.
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Okay.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
What about our clothes? We talked a little bit about the leggings. Jillian asks, are there PFAs in my clothes? Are there particular fabrics I should avoid? There's some talk about leggings, and then I am interested. You said that PFAS can have effects on reproductive health. So, you know, anything that's like going near your cooch, like, if you have one, including sanitary items, you know, like tampons and pads. Like, tell me a little bit about those. Like, should we be worried about leggings that are touching you very closely and other things like that?
- [25:13]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah, that's. That's another great question. And I know that there was a study done a few years ago that looked at, I think, levels of fluorine in. In leggings. And as I mentioned before, you know, performance wear, synthetic fabrics again for, you know, that wrinkle resistant kind of stain resistant. You know, PFAS was added to clothes, too, to maintain Those qualities in, like, performance wear, athletic wear. The good news is, I think, going forward is that we have a lot that's happening at the state level in terms of trying to get PFAS out of consumer products. It would be great if more was happening on the national scale and at the federal level, but a lot.
- [26:04]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Good luck with that, my friend.
- [26:06]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
A lot of stuff. But what we can't point to is that a lot of states have gone forward with trying to get PFAs. As I mentioned before, out of all some of these places where we really just don't need it, and one of them is sexiles. California and I believe New York also have passed laws going forward of getting rid of PFAS in textiles and clothing. In the meantime, you can definitely look for those words if something is marketed as stain resistant or wrinkle resistant, and research your brand. And like I said before, the level of awareness, I think, is really skyrocketing as people become more and more aware of this and finding out about them. They don't want them in their clothes, they don't want them in their items. And when in doubt, you can always buy just pure cotton leggings that don't kind of have those performance attributes. Also.
- [27:09]
Noah Michelson
It's. It's. I mean, we hear this on the show all the time. This idea that, like, you have to do a little research. Like, you know, you have. If you care about something, it might take a little more time and energy, maybe a little more money, but usually it's worth it. Yeah, but I think a lot of us have such crazy lives. And also, we kind of assume, I think, not smartly, that, like, these companies aren't gonna hurt us and our government isn't gonna hurt us, you know, and if it's for sale, then it must be okay. And, like, we know that that's not true. Another one I want to ask about. During the pandemic, I lived alone. It was very lonely. And so I would do these little things to sort of, like, cheer myself up. And one of the things I loved was, like, a scented candle. It made my place so cozy. And then I was watching some morning show, it was like Good Morning America or something. And they had this expert on. And she was like, anytime you light a scented candle, you are releasing chemicals into your apartment. They're so bad for you. Literally, chemicals. Chemicals plus flames equals death. And I was like, I can't even have scented candles.
- [28:12]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
No.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's like one of my greatest joys, having a candle.
- [28:15]
Noah Michelson
So what do you think about Scented candles. In terms of like what's happening, can we have them or are you gonna steal our joy?
- [28:23]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
That's another good question. And I definitely don't want to steal anyone's joy. I want there to be joy and happiness and coziness in your home. And again, I think it's just, I think it's just a part of that awareness again that, you know, that's the whole reason we're talking about this. And it's just great for people to be aware. You can't shop your way out of every exposure, but in a lot of cases you can make better choices. So for candles, for example, what you would want to look for is something like a natural beeswax candle and make sure that the wick is just like a plain cotton wick and it doesn't have a metal center. Something, you know, like something that you might find at like a farmer's market or something like that. Some, you know, where it's just like natural beeswax. And then you get away from, I'm not sure about PFAS specifically, but you get away with some of the harmful VOCs that are associated with the commercial wax that's used in, you know, some of the regular mainstream candles. So you want to look for that beeswax candle and one that has that, that plain just cotton wick and something that's not metal. So I think you can still have your candle and still make your place cozy, but just opt for, for one of those types instead of one of your other mainstream candles. So.
- [30:06]
Noah Michelson
Okay, that's fair.
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
I think you can still have your candle.
- [30:09]
Noah Michelson
Thank you.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
I do like the idea of, and I do love a farmer's market, so, you know, I'm not opposed to going there. Some things are marketed with the word clean on them.
- [30:20]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, like what?
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
And I hate to bring it back to like more genital related things, but I want to address. Yes, like Brandi's question about tampons and pads. A lot of them are marketed as clean.
- [30:33]
Noah Michelson
Right.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Does that mean anything to you, Dr. Stoibert?
- [30:37]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah. So again, a lot of these marketing words like clean, natural, there's not a lot of weight behind that and that's why it's better to look for independence third party certifications. Tampons, for example. I'm glad you brought us back to those. Some tampons did have detected pfas and there. But there are a number of brands out there, when tested did not have PFAs. So again, if that's what you're concerned about, you just have to double check and see if your brand has been tested or not. Organic cotton, that refers, you know, that's the cotton part of the tampon. There are other parts of the tampon, but the organic just refers to that cotton. So that may not ensure that it's PFAS free, But you just want to check to see if they have tested and then if they have that data, then you can say, oh, this, you know, this brand doesn't have it. I'll stick with that brand.
- [31:38]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, that seems like one that is worth checking in on. Like those are directly going inside of your body.
- [31:44]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Things put in your body.
- [31:45]
Noah Michelson
Yes.
- [31:45]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
You know, speaking of things you put in your body, I, as I understand it, PFAS is not in most of our food, but I did hear that it's in there are PFAS in seafood. Can you tell us anything about this?
- [32:00]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah, so PFAs. And again, a lot of people think about, I think they think first thing off the top of their head is drinking water. I should be worried about my drinking water and make, you know, make sure I have a filter and whatnot. But we can be exposed to PFAS from these other routes. And another major exposure route is food. And it depends on, you know, again, who you are and what you're eating, if that is your major exposure route. But yes, PFAS can be in fish. But don't despair too much because again, there are different choices that you can make. So freshwater caught fish tends to have a lot higher levels of pfas. So this is an issue for people that fish in lakes and streams and especially in areas that have higher population levels, that translates into, you know, more releases to the environment and then that's going to build up in the freshwater fish. So freshwater fish are especially vulnerable to PFAS.
- [33:12]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
So this is terrible, Dr. Sturber, because I, I don't want to buy farmed fish, so I always go to Whole Foods. And when the fresh, when the, what's the non farmed or whatever fish is on sale, I'm like, yes, I'm so healthy. Like, can I have anything nice?
- [33:26]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah, so grow. So grocery store fish, if you look at the comparison, it did tend to have lower levels. But you can also buy marine fish, like fish that were in the ocean. Those types of fish tended to have lower levels of pfas. And again, the grocery store fish, if you, you know, making that comparison, the levels were much lower. Okay, so, yeah, so, so I mean, that is a choice for some people, you know, just kind of recognizing you know, some people do fish and that's their main source of protein. Again, it's kind of this disproportionate exposure. Some people can make that choice to shop at the grocery store, others can't. But that grocery store fish did tend to have lower levels when compared to freshwater.
- [34:18]
Noah Michelson
Are there any other foods that tend to be problematic or to have high levels of them?
- [34:25]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
PFAS can also be found in food packaging. So your packaged foods, processed foods at the grocery store. One of the behaviors that has been shown to be linked to lower levels of PFAS is those that cook more meals at home. And if you are eating more takeout food, food and takeout containers, that can also have an impact on the PFAS levels in your body. As I mentioned before though, the trend is that more states are taking action and they're definitely taking action on PFAS in food containers. So there again, a number of states are phasing out or prohibiting PFAS in these single use containers. So we're on the right track. But that's not, again, it's not across the board. So you can try to cook at home more and kind of as much as you can try to choose whole foods and move away from packaged foods whenever you can make that choice, because it does make a difference over time.
- [35:41]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
You know, when Noah feels overwhelmed, he says this thing, he's like, I'm just gonna walk into the ocean now and never come back. But you can't, because there's forever chemicals
- [35:49]
Noah Michelson
in the ocean everywhere. Yeah, no, I know. I guess a question I have too, that I was just thinking about is like, is there a way to know how many forever chemicals you have in you? Or if it's a concern like, are we testing it? Can you go to the doctor and get a forever chemical test scan? Or if you don't have the high levels where you're getting cancer or something like that, do we just have no idea what's going on inside of us?
- [36:17]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
If people are interested in their levels, there are test kits that you can purchase that will tell you your levels. It is a little bit difficult to say, you know, on an individual basis that these levels translate into, you know, specific health outcomes, things like that. It's easier, it's easier to say that at a population level. But there are guidelines for clinicians based on PFAS levels in your blood and what you might want to screen for based on those levels kind of going forward, and recommendations based on, you know, are you in that 90th percentile do you tend to have lower levels? So there are recommendations based on different ranges of PFAS in people's blood.
- [37:11]
Noah Michelson
If we find out that we have high levels in our bodies, is there anything we can do about that? Like, is there a way to flush? Or if you, like, really worked hard to not expose yourself more at some point, would they disappear from us? Or are they forever chemicals forever in our bodies, too?
- [37:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And I want to add, I've heard that you pee them out. So if you can tell me if we pee them out as well, that would be very helpful.
- [37:38]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah. So it depends. It really depends. It depends on the type of pfas. They. Depending on which type you've been exposed to, they stay in your body for different amounts of time. Sometimes decades, sometimes on the order of months, sometimes on the order of days. It depends on the type. But what we've seen, especially on the community level, for example, national biomonitoring data, when they do compare levels, you know, from decade to decade or over time, a lot of these legacy older types of pfas that have been voluntarily phased out by industry, those levels are dropping in people. So we know that over time, the levels do go down. And, you know, interventions, for example, if a community has installed treatment, if they installed drinking water treatment, and they measured levels in people's bodies and people's blood over time before and after that treatment, after a number of years, the trend is that PFAS will go down. So we know that there are things that you can do, as I mentioned before, not you can't avoid all exposures, but there are things that you can do to reduce some of those bigger exposures, whether that's using a drinking water filter or trying to cook at home, more swapping out things in your kitchen, things like that, of those different behavioral changes, they can reduce those levels.
- [39:16]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Okay, so we are flushing them out at some level, right?
- [39:20]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
I mean, over time, they do leave your body. Women, for example, since we do lose blood over time, overall, again, if we're, you know, just comparing population level, you know, women sometimes tend to have lower levels in men, since we are losing blood at certain points, there are ways that they are leaving our body, but they do kind of. It's. But it's slowly, it's incrementally and over time.
- [39:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Wow. Uterus for the win. Definitely the one good thing.
- [39:57]
Noah Michelson
I know you guys are always talking about the patriarchy, and like, Here we go.
- [40:01]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Dr. Storberry and I are reversing the patriarchy one period at a time.
- [40:05]
Noah Michelson
And I'm Just over here filled with forever chemistry scanning plastic. So sad.
- [40:11]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Wow. I feel like I got smarter and
- [40:14]
Noah Michelson
more scared at the same time. Yes. This is a good question from Kristin. I feel like this sort of sums up what we're all feeling. She said, is there any point to me trying to control them or is it probably too late? Should I just live my life? What do you think about that?
- [40:31]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah, I mean, I think people should definitely live their lives. Definitely. Again, when we think about these. When we think about chemical exposures, the health effects are related to exposure over time. Oftentimes it's number of years of exposure. But at the same time, it's. It's good to know that there are these really small things that you can do that actually do make a difference. Like things. One of the things that I like to recommend since it's just, it's so easy, is that washing your hands before you eat can greatly reduce chemical exposures in your body. Since things, you know, like flame retardants and other things, they stick to dust, they get on our hands or whatnot, and then when we eat, we're exposed to it. So, you know, especially for kids and whatnot, if you're washing your hands before you eat, it's. It's reduced, you know, not only germs, but some of these chemical exposures as well. It's such an easy thing to do. Or something like frequently vacuuming and dusting in your home. Again, chemicals in your home products, they don't stay there, they are shed out. They tend to deposit in dust around your house. So get out your vacuum. Vacuum fitted with a HEPA filter. Vacuum as much as you can, dust as much as you can. Easy. Things like that do make a difference when it comes to chemical exposures.
- [42:11]
Noah Michelson
You know who's gonna love that? My partner, Benji. He owns seven vacuums. I think we've talked about this on the show before.
- [42:17]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Stop.
- [42:18]
Noah Michelson
No, he loves to vacuum. So he's, he's just going to be even more excited that you just gave him a good reason to vacuum even more.
- [42:25]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Vacuuming is very psychologically satisfying to me. Yeah, so I understand.
- [42:29]
Noah Michelson
Especially if you have an animal and you just see the hair get sucked up.
- [42:31]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah, absolutely.
- [42:33]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I feel like the, you know, what you're talking about is the theme of my life, which is harm reduction.
- [42:39]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [42:39]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Like we're not going to stop living or having fun or enjoying A, B and C. But like, having this knowledge is very helpful to me. Like if I can just shave off 10% of danger, I think it would Be very helpful.
- [42:51]
Noah Michelson
Yeah. And that add up. I think that's great. I love these tips. I love washing your hands. I mean, I remember when the pandemic happened too. Everyone was like, wash more. It seems like we should be washing more in general. So I love that. Love cleaning more. Any other tip that we haven't gone through besides, you know, eating more at home that you think people can do, starting today, starting right now, that actually is going to help limit their exposure.
- [43:16]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
One of the first things that you can do is just to be aware. That's the first step, just for people to know where they might be exposed, what types of products PFAS might be in. That I think is key because then it kind of gets you thinking about things. So awareness definitely is key. And as I mentioned also before as well is just looking for those terms like something that's stain resistant or wrinkle resistant. Often that's linked to PFAs added to that product. So if you can avoid those terms right off the bat or if that just kind of gets you thinking, that's key also. So it's really important for that awareness. And I think just overall, the consumer awareness leads to this larger movement and push from people overall for change. And that, you know, that starts with all of us. And when you have that and when you have people saying, hey, you know, I don't want this in all of my products, companies take notice. And I mean, when you have this kind of at the community level and people pushing for this, also pushing their policymakers, that's also when things happen too. I don't want this in my drinking water. Nobody does. What are we to do going, what are we going to do about it? Let's invest in drinking water treatment. There's a lot of benefits there.
- [44:49]
Noah Michelson
So I will also say anything that says it's, you know, wrinkle resistant is a lie. I've bought that stuff before. I have to iron it anyways. So just get out your iron and buy the, you know, the cotton shirt or whatever.
- [45:02]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Sweat wicking is another term that really freaks me out. Yeah, like, it's okay to have your sweat on your clothes.
- [45:08]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [45:08]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Like, where does it go?
- [45:10]
Noah Michelson
Sweat?
- [45:11]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I don't like it.
- [45:12]
Noah Michelson
I learned a ton and I'm less freaked out than I thought I was gonna be.
- [45:15]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I'm pretty freaked out right now, but I feel like it will. Like, my palms are sweaty, but I feel like it will.
- [45:21]
Noah Michelson
You need to wick it away.
- [45:22]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, I'm gonna wick away. I hate that so much, but I feel empowered, ultimately. So once my anxiety tamps down a little bit, I think I'm gonna definitely kind of rejigger some things in my
- [45:35]
Noah Michelson
house because we've got tips to do it better. That's the whole idea of the show. See, it all comes full circle. Tasha, thank you so much for being here. It's been great.
- [45:45]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much.
- [45:51]
Noah Michelson
Before we had ATT Business Wireless coverage, our delivery GPS wasn't the most reliable.
- [45:57]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Once our driver had to do a
- [45:58]
Noah Michelson
14 point turn to get back on route. A 14 point turn.
- [46:03]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
An influencer even live streamed the whole thing.
- [46:06]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Not good for business.
- [46:07]
Noah Michelson
Now with AT&T business Wireless, routes are updating on the fly and deliveries are on time.
- [46:13]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And the influencer did get us 53 new followers though.
- [46:16]
Noah Michelson
AT&T business Wireless connecting changes everything.
- [46:21]
Narrator/Advertiser
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- [47:04]
Noah Michelson
Hi, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast
- [47:06]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Food with Mark Bittman.
- [47:07]
Noah Michelson
And I'm here to tell you that Whole Foods Market is in the midst of its fabulous Taste the Mediterranean event with terrific sales on flavors and ingredients both from and inspired by the region everyone loves. You can save 30% using your prime membership on extra virgin olive oil from California Olive Ranch Deco pasta, Rao's pasta sauces, San Pellegrino sparkling waters and flavored bubbly waters and cedars Hummus. Save during the Taste the Mediterranean event now at Whole Foods Market. All right, you guys, it's time for better in five. These are our top five takeaways from this episode.
- [47:51]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Okay, the first one is Forever chemicals were designed to make our lives easier, but they're actually now found to be linked to some pretty serious health conditions.
- [48:01]
Noah Michelson
Number two, you can look online to see the levels of forever chemicals in your water supply. And it's probably not a bad idea to get a water filter no matter what the level is.
- [48:11]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Number three, you can't shop your way out of every problem, but There are buzzwords to look for that indicate forever chemicals are present in your clothing, for example, such as stain resistant and wrinkle resistant.
- [48:22]
Noah Michelson
Right. Number four, washing your hands and vacuuming are two simple ways to limit your exposure.
- [48:28]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Hear that, Benji? And number five, research is your friend. Becoming more aware about forever chemicals is the first step to limiting them. Okay, Noah, were you doing forever chemicals wrong?
- [48:40]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, absolutely. Number one, because I wasn't really thinking about them. Number two, I admitted I love a scented candle, and I definitely was not getting, like, the beeswax organic one from the farmer's market.
- [48:53]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Expensive.
- [48:55]
Noah Michelson
But you know what I loved about this episode is that Tasha wasn't scaremongery. You know, she didn't come in here and say, like, everything you're doing is wrong. You're full of chemicals, you're gonna die tomorrow. And I think that's sort of what I was afraid she was gonna say. I love that she gave us really practical ways that we can start doing things better. Literally, the minute we get off camera. We can wash our hands, we can vacuum, we can get less takeout, whatever it is. That felt really useful to me.
- [49:22]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah. I don't respond well to fear mongering.
- [49:25]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
Also.
- [49:25]
Noah Michelson
No.
- [49:26]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
She was very empowering, and I appreciate that.
- [49:28]
Noah Michelson
Yeah. Cause you just shut down otherwise.
- [49:29]
Narrator/Advertiser
Yes.
- [49:30]
Noah Michelson
What did you think?
- [49:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I was definitely doing all of this wrong. Especially I'm very attracted to those buzzwords on workout clothing in particular that are like, sweat, wicking, whatever, resistant. And now I'm like, maybe I should work out in, like, a burlap sack. Like, I already snagged a man.
- [49:47]
Noah Michelson
That's never gonna happen. We both know that.
- [49:50]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I will find middle ground is what I'm saying.
- [49:52]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, yeah. Maybe some cotton, you know? Yeah. Anyway, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're gonna be right here to help you do them better.
- [50:01]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Love you guys. Am I doing it Wrong? Is a co production between HuffPost and Acast.
- [50:08]
Noah Michelson
Our producers are Eve Bishop, Carmen Borca Korea and Malia Agudelo.
- [50:13]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter.
- [50:16]
Noah Michelson
Special thanks to HuffPost's head of audience, Abby Williams.
- [50:19]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Head of Video Will Took, as well
- [50:21]
Noah Michelson
as Kate Palmer, Marta Rodriguez, and Terry d'. Angelo.
- [50:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And we're your hosts, Raj Panjabi Johnson and Noah Michelson.
- [50:35]
Dr. Tasha Stoiber
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Narrator/Advertiser
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
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Dr. Tasha Stoiber
what if the most powerful thing about you is not what you do, but it's the energy you bring into a room? I'm Kathy Heller, and I host Everything Is Energy. You're going to hear conversations about how your energy shapes every part of your life. Your abundance, your relationships, your creativity, your sense of peace. Because this isn't about hustle or forcing change. It's about knowing that when your energy changes, your life immediately responds. Listen to Everything Is Energy with Kathy Heller wherever you get your podcasts the
- [51:48]
Narrator/Advertiser
youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safe phones and watches with no Internet or social media. Just the right tech at the right time. From smart watches for young kids to advanced parent managed phones for teens, Gab keeps kids connected safely. Visit gab.com getgab and use code getgab for a special offer that's G-A-B-B.com getgab Gab Tech in Steps Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.