How Forgiveness Actually Works — And When Not To Do It

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How Forgiveness Actually Works — And When Not To Do It"

Episode Information

• Title: How Forgiveness Actually Works — And When Not To Do It
• Host: Raj Panjabi-Johnson and Noah Michelson
• Guest: Dr. Esther Boykin, Marriage and Family Therapist
• Release Date: January 16, 2025
• Description: This episode delves into the nuanced concept of forgiveness, exploring its definition, process, and the circumstances under which it may or may not be appropriate. Dr. Esther Boykin provides expert insights into healthy relationship dynamics, self-compassion, and the psychological and physical benefits of forgiveness.

---

Introduction to Forgiveness

The hosts, Raj Panjabi-Johnson and Noah Michelson, kick off the episode by posing the question: "Am I doing forgiveness wrong?" This sets the stage for an in-depth discussion on forgiveness, its complexities, and its role in personal well-being.

Defining Forgiveness

Dr. Esther Boykin defines forgiveness as:

"Coming to an acceptance that someone has harmed us, releasing the emotional energy around it, and feeling as though we can move on."
(03:54)

She emphasizes that forgiveness is an integrated part of our story, not something to be perpetually revisited.

The Non-Linear Process of Forgiveness

Both hosts express skepticism about predefined steps or stages to forgiveness. Dr. Boykin concurs, stating:

"Emotions are a fluid process that we navigate at our own pacing. It is not linear."
(04:39)

They discuss how forgiveness can fluctuate over time, sometimes feeling resolved only to resurface later in different contexts.

Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation

A critical distinction is made between forgiving someone and reconciling with them. Dr. Boykin clarifies:

"Forgiveness is one thing. Relationship repair and reconciliation are completely different."
(07:45)

She notes that forgiveness does not obligate one to re-enter or mend the relationship, maintaining that boundaries can remain intact post-forgiveness.

The Role of Apology in Forgiveness

The necessity of an apology in the forgiveness process is debated. Dr. Boykin explains:

"We can forgive without an apology. Forgiveness is often something we do without the other person being present or acknowledging their wrongdoing."
(14:21)

However, a sincere apology can facilitate the healing process, making it easier to move forward.

Self-Forgiveness and Self-Compassion

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on self-forgiveness. Dr. Boykin introduces a framework based on three pillars:

1. Self-Kindness: Being thoughtful in self-talk and self-care.
2. Mindful Awareness: Understanding and acknowledging one's true feelings.
3. Common Humanity: Recognizing that suffering and imperfection are part of the shared human experience.
   (36:21)

She emphasizes daily practices, such as beginning the day with deep breaths and self-inquiry, to cultivate self-compassion and facilitate self-forgiveness.

Physical and Mental Health Benefits

Dr. Boykin highlights the tangible benefits of forgiveness on physical health:

"Lower blood pressure, deeper breathing, and reduced body tension are some of the physical benefits of authentic forgiveness."
(40:32)

She connects unresolved anger and resentment to various health issues, underscoring the importance of addressing these emotions for overall well-being.

When Not to Forgive

The conversation addresses scenarios where forgiveness may not be appropriate. Dr. Boykin states:

"If what someone is doing is dehumanizing or upholding systems that oppress you, there's no moral obligation to forgive them."
(42:22)

She advocates for prioritizing personal healing over societal pressures to forgive, especially in cases of systemic or severe personal harm.

Empathy and Boundaries

The hosts and Dr. Boykin discuss the balance between empathy and setting healthy boundaries. Excessive empathy without boundaries can lead to emotional burnout. Dr. Boykin advises:

"Forgiveness should not come at the expense of your well-being. It's crucial to set boundaries even when you choose to forgive."
(32:30)

Practical Tools for Forgiveness

Several strategies are offered to facilitate forgiveness:

• Emotional Audits: Regularly assessing what emotions you are holding onto and why.
• Apology Audits: Evaluating the sincerity and impact of apologies received.
• Symbolic Gestures: Using non-verbal means, like sharing a meal, to signify forgiveness.

Dr. Boykin encourages listeners to personalize their forgiveness journey, recognizing that it varies with each individual and situation.

"Better in Five" – Top Five Takeaways

At the end of the episode, the hosts summarize the key points:

1. Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation: Forgiveness does not equate to reconciliation.
2. No Set Steps: Forgiveness is a unique, non-linear process for each individual.
3. Apology Not Mandatory: While helpful, an apology is not required to forgive.
4. Empathy with Boundaries: Essential to practice empathy without compromising personal boundaries.
5. Self-Forgiveness Priority: Always prioritize forgiving oneself over others.

(48:30 – 48:56)

Personal Reflections by the Hosts

Both Raj and Noah reflect on how the episode has influenced their understanding of forgiveness:

• Raj acknowledges the spectrum of forgiveness and expresses a desire to work on self-forgiveness.

  "There are degrees of forgiveness. I'm gonna think about that, examine that a lot more, and pertain it to my life."
  (49:11)

• Noah appreciates the permission to critically evaluate when forgiveness serves personal growth.

  "Forgiveness is not always the best thing. Sometimes, it's okay not to forgive if it's not beneficial for you."
  (49:45)

Conclusion

The episode concludes with an empowering message that forgiveness is a deeply personal choice, guided by individual needs and circumstances. Listeners are encouraged to introspect and determine what forgiveness means for them, emphasizing that it is a tool for personal liberation rather than societal obligation.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dr. Esther Boykin (03:54): "Forgiveness is about releasing the emotional energy around it and feeling as though we can move on."
• Dr. Esther Boykin (04:39): "Emotions are a fluid process that we navigate at our own pacing. It is not linear."
• Dr. Esther Boykin (07:45): "Forgiveness is one thing. Relationship repair and reconciliation are completely different."
• Dr. Esther Boykin (14:21): "We can forgive without an apology. Forgiveness is often something we do without the other person being present or acknowledging their wrongdoing."
• Dr. Esther Boykin (36:21): "Self-compassion is made up of self-kindness, mindful awareness, and common humanity."
• Dr. Esther Boykin (40:32): "Lower blood pressure, deeper breathing, and reduced body tension are some of the physical benefits of authentic forgiveness."
• Dr. Esther Boykin (42:22): "If what someone is doing is dehumanizing or upholding systems that oppress you, there's no moral obligation to forgive them."
• Dr. Esther Boykin (32:30): "Forgiveness should not come at the expense of your well-being. It's crucial to set boundaries even when you choose to forgive."
• Dr. Esther Boykin (47:39): "Something great happens when you forgive yourself. Do that one first, see how you feel afterwards."

---

This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the key discussions and insights on forgiveness. Whether grappling with self-forgiveness or contemplating forgiving others, listeners are equipped with valuable perspectives and practical tools to navigate their personal journeys toward emotional well-being.

Transcript

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

When the energy is high and the.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Music is right, pushing past your limits becomes that much easier. Take a reggaeton run or strength class on the Peloton Tread and you'll quickly see why these are the workouts you've been searching for. Every day brings new challenges from expert coaches who train and speak the same.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Language as you do.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Level up your workouts with Peloton Tread.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Find your push, find your power. Peloton visit onepelaton.com.

[Noah Michelson]

It's a cold day here in Alaska, but there's one animal seemingly unaffected. Bright eyed and determined enters the husky. Observe as they go up the mountain. Guided by pure instinct. They are truly amazing masters of this wilderness. But even these amazing pets can't sign up for Lemonade Pet Insurance. You can sign up [e-mail] Amazing. Today's episode is sponsored by eHarmony, the dating app to find someone you can be yourself with.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Noah, one thing that my friends who are on the apps constantly complain about is getting terribly unoriginal first messages from people. It's such an awful first impression to come out the gate swinging with some cheesy pickup line.

[Noah Michelson]

Ugh. Absolutely. I completely remember when I was on the apps. Most of my conversations were so boring, but it's hard not to be right. That's where our sponsor eHarmony comes in. Their compatibility quiz helps bring out people's personalities on their profiles. They highlight similarities you have with potential matches so you have a better jumping off point for conversation. It's so much better than just what's up.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yup. Plus, eHarmony disables copy and paste for first messages so you can get better messages that lead to stronger connections.

[Noah Michelson]

And eHarmony makes it easier to have better conversations. So you're already one step ahead when it comes to meeting someone who gets you.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

So why not give eHarmony a shot? Take their personality quiz to get started today.

[Noah Michelson]

It's 2025. It's all about simplifying your dating life. No more boring conversations.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Amen. Get who gets you on eHarmony? Sign up today. Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi Johnson, head of Identity Content at Hook Post.

[Noah Michelson]

And I'm Noah Michelson, head of HuffPost Personal.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Welcome to Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right. Okay, Noah, are you doing forgiveness wrong?

[Noah Michelson]

That is such an interesting question because I definitely forgive people, but I don't think that I actively think about forgiveness or how I'm doing it or if I'M doing it wrong or if there's a right way to do it. So now that we've decided to do an episode on it, I'm, like, just spiraling out into the galaxy, and I'm, like, floating around being like, am I doing this right? What do you think?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I mean, I think it's a really abstract concept, forgiveness. I don't think I'm great at it because a lot of times when I have a conflict with someone, I'll just put space between us instead of really working on it. So I'm really, really happy to have with us today Dr. Esther Boykin, a marriage and family therapist in D.C. who focuses her work on healthy relationships.

[Noah Michelson]

Let's get absolved.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

All right.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Dr. Esther, we are so excited to have you here to talk about forgiveness.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I am excited to be here. It's one of my favorite things to talk about, just because I think sometimes I have opinions that differ from colleagues when it comes to forgiveness.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I'm sure that happens. Yeah. Okay, let's get right to it. First of all, how do you define forgiveness? Does it depend on the situation, or is there, like, one succinct way to define it that applies to everything?

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I typically think about forgiveness, and I do think this applies to just about every scenario, universally as coming to an acceptance of that someone has harmed us in some way, accepting that, releasing the emotional energy around it and feeling as though we can move on. Like it's an integrated part of our story, not something that is continuing to be front and center, if that makes sense.

[Noah Michelson]

I think that makes total sense.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

I kept. When I was prepping for this episode, I kept hearing about, like, the eight key ways to forgive or the four steps to forgiveness, or three stages of forgiveness. Do you follow any of that? Or how do you see that as being a process? How do you think about actually moving through forgiveness just to get the lay of the land?

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

While I totally understand our human desire for steps, like, I especially. I'm like, no. What is the. Like, even with my own therapist, I'm like, what are the steps? Yeah, six or seven. What do I do to get to the next one? But realistically, I do not subscribe to this concept. There are, like, eight stages, and you just move through them sequentially, and then, poof, you've forgiven. I think much like all of our emotions, it is kind of a very fluid process that we find ourselves navigating in our own pacing. And sometimes you're at, quote, unquote, step eight, and then all of a sudden you wake up and you're at step two, like, human emotion in our process, particularly when it comes to relationship, which is really where forgiveness, I think, lives is in. Our relationship to other people is fluid and ambiguous. Most of the time it is not linear.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I totally believe you because I'm thinking about times with my partner or with my best friend where, like, you know, we've had some kind of conflict and there has been forgiveness. But then, as my therapist has said, there are some other things that will trigger or will remind me of the conflict. And then, like, little bits of, like, resentment will pop up and you gotta deal with that too. So I believe you. It sounds fluid. It's not like you're just 110 and done.

[Noah Michelson]

No. And it's not happening in a vacuum either. Right. Like you said, there are other things that are gonna happen or other interactions. And so it seems to me, I feel that too. We did an episode on grief, and the therapist in that episode said the same thing about grief. It's. People love, like you said, to have steps. Because when we're dealing with something that is probably maybe traumatic or it's an experience or someone really has hurt us, we do want to figure out that, like, best way forward.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And then we want to be fucking done with it.

[Noah Michelson]

Exactly. But that's just not how life works, I don't think.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And we will talk about, you know, forgiveness in the context of relationship and forgiving yourself too. But let's start talking about, like, forgiving other people. I think there's a lot of. There's a narrative, and we'll get into that later about, like, forgiveness is the. Is the best thing for yourself. Like, you're setting yourself free. But I just want to clarify. Clarify. We don't need to, like, forget abuse. Right. Or, like, forgive someone for abuse. I'm just thinking about when someone really does something hurtful or horrible to you.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Yeah. Well, first, I. I also do not really. I think that concept of, like, forgive and forget.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I mean, unless you have amnesia.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah. Or smoke a lot of weed. Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Yeah. Right. You know, like, I mean, there's some ways we can forget. Usually those are temporary, but, like. So. Absolutely. I think that. And I think this comes back to the idea too, that so often we think about forgiveness and reconciliation as being the same thing, and they're not are people. And I'll talk more about, you know, how important or not important I think it is to forgive everybody for everything. I don't really believe that either. But there are people who will forgive, right. Who. I mean, we've read stories, right? Like families forgiving someone who murdered a loved one. You know, somebody forgiving an abusive parent or partner now that they've moved, moved on.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

It does not require and often cannot happen if you are then re entering the relationship or trying to repair the relationship. Forgiveness is one thing. Relationship repair and reconciliation is actually a completely different thing. And they often come together like, it's hard to reconcile if I haven't forgiven you. But just because I've forgiven you doesn't mean that I actually want or need or should have you in my life in any meaningful way. And so I think that it is possible to forgive those things. I don't think it's required, but it's really important to recognize, like, just because you forgive somebody doesn't mean that you ever need to let them back into your life or have the same relationship or, you know, suddenly have close boundaries or any of those kinds of things.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That makes sense.

[Noah Michelson]

It does. I think then people might be thinking, what is the point then of forgiving someone if you're not going to forget, if you're not going to have them back in your life? Why would it be a good thing for me to actually go through forgiveness? Talk a little bit about that.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

So I think of it in two components. One will not really apply to everyone. So one I think is more of a like, spiritual, moral, philosophical standpoint. If your value system kind of had, like, leads you towards forgiveness, like, I, I make mistakes because I'm human. Other humans are going to make mistakes and sometimes their mistakes hurt me. And I feel a religious, spiritual, moral imperative to try to forgive them, then that's one reason that's also a very personal reason. I think from my standpoint, from more psychological, mental health standpoint, is forgiveness ideally is about releasing ourselves of the emotional labor that is required to show hurt. To me, forgiveness is about us first and foremost. Again, on that kind of love for other people and spiritual side, then there is forgiveness for others because I want to set them free. I want them to get to a place where they can forgive themselves and move on. And I think in the case of a relationship with somebody where you're continuing, like, you know, you mentioned, like your best friend or like, you know, I think like my partner, like, I forgive because I want to move forward and I also don't want him to hold on to the fact that he did something that hurt me and I can't get over it. Like, it's hard for us to stay in relationship and it's good for the Relationship. But mostly I think we need to be free of that emotional weight and burden.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah. Emotional labor. I use that, like, a lot because I'm just like, I can feel it. Whether it's my anxiety that the switch has been turned on and I'm physically tired from being worried. Like, I feel like with anger, it's the same thing. Anger is such a powerful emotion. Like, it requires so much of our energy. It really is for us. Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

It's same thing with a grudge, which I feel like is almost like anger, but like elongated, where you're holding onto this grudge. And I think, like, you're both saying it's a lot of work to keep that going and if you can let go of that, whether or not you're going to bring that other person back into your life, like, just releasing that. Yeah, it's really healthy.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I'm just thinking. I'm laughing because I, me and one of my friends joke about, like, someone I didn't like in our internship 20, 20 years ago, and now I joke about it, but I'm like, damn, I'm a petty ass bitch. Like, I am really still holding on. And people laugh about it. And it does take a little bit of emotional labor, but, like, it's kind of hard to forgive. Like, even if it's for yourself.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Oh, it's very hard to forgive. It reminds me, I have a colleague, Erica, and we would talk about this often, and her thing is like, if. If holding that grudge or holding that anger costs you little to nothing, Right. Like, it's. It's a minimal amount of energy. She's like, then that level of energy versus the amount of energy it would require to fully process why did I not like her? And what do I need?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Like, if that feels like more work, you know what? Just keep your petty grudge.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

You know what?

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I love that it's not hurting you. It's not hurting. You know, I mean, that woman probably either never thinks about you ever, or also is holding her own little petty grudge.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Or possibly thinks you're the greatest person ever.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah. Okay. First of all, I love that there's some. There's someone in the hip hop world had this quote that was like, I want you to eat, just not at my table. Like, I don't care about that woman. Like, she. I wish her well. I'm just like, it's. I like the idea of an anger audit or like a forgiveness audit. Like, think about what you want to hold onto.

[Noah Michelson]

Yes. I also think sometimes grudges can actually be productive in a way.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

They can give you drive. Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

I will do anything for people. Once you're in my life and we're good, I will do anything. But if you cross me after I've gone to bat for you, I don't forget that. And I don't hold onto the grudge in terms of, like. Like you said, I'm not thinking. I'm thinking of one person in particular who really. I really worked so hard for them and, like, gave them recommendations and did everything for them, and then they treated me like shit.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

I don't think about her anymore. She's not taking up space in my mind. But if she came back to me for something else.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

I'm not gonna help her again.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

And so I think sometimes grudges can also inform the way that you also move through the world and also protect yourself in a way, you know?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

So I think partially what I'm also hearing is, like, there's a difference in my mind between learning the lesson that our anger was there to teach us.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

And setting new boundaries and holding a grudge.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

It's like, you're not really still angry. It's just like, oh, you did a thing. I was angry at the time that you crossed me, that you betrayed me. Lesson learned. New boundaries around this person, this relationship. And, you know, sometimes the boundary is like, oh, I just don't. Like, we don't mess with each other anymore. Like, lose my number. And now I've set new boundaries, which to me is a little bit different than, like, holding a grudge. Yeah. Does require a bit of energy and effort. And my experience is, once you've learned the lesson and you've really set new boundaries, like, you've kind of feel like you've taken your ownership back from this person, from the situation, it's harder to really hold a grudge. I think it goes back to the piece around, like, forgive and forget. Like, no, you can forgive, but you will never forget it. And that doesn't always mean that you're holding a grudge.

[Noah Michelson]

One of the things I keep thinking about, though, is an apology. How important is an apology to forgiveness? It seems like the two go together. Can you forgive someone if you don't get an apology?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Like a verbal apology.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. Or something.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

An acknowledgement of. From the other person that they did something wrong. Do you need that? Or can we do forgiveness without that?

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

We can do forgiveness without it. If we're deciding that we want to forgive a person, a lot of times we have to do it without them. Right. Like, they've passed. We're no longer in relationship with them. They don't think they did anything wrong. Like, there's a lot of scenarios where we're not going get the apology. And sometimes we get apologies that don't actually meet our needs. I'm sorry I made you feel that way.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

You know, like, you break up with somebody and they're like, I'm sorry for everything I ever did that upset you.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Garbage.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

You're like, what. What am I? That's just a trash apology.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

So we can forgive those people, but a sincere, heartfelt apology can certainly make the process much easier. Part of what we struggle with in forgiveness is if we're in relationship with people, we trusted them. We believe something about them. We thought they were a certain type. And so their betrayal, their hurtfulness, challenges not just. Doesn't just change how we feel about them and what they did to us, but, like, how we trust our own judgment.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

So if that person comes back and attempts to make amends and apologizes in a really heartfelt and genuine way, it helps us to kind of heal the part of us that was like, obviously, I can't trust my own judgment anymore. But if you come back and apologize, it's sort of like, okay, well, maybe. Maybe they did just make a mistake, and it's not me. And, like, my judgment is actually solid. Like, our need to forgive ourselves is often very tangled up in our ability to forgive others. And so the apology. If you. If you owe someone a good apology, just if you care about them at all, even if you never want to see them again, give them the apology. Like, I think it's a gift we can give people.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yes.

[Noah Michelson]

What do you think, Dr. Esther, though, about how important is it to give someone forgiveness verbally or to actually have the exchange when you're saying, you know, if Raj did something to me, do I need to say to her, raj, I forgive you? Is that important?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Good question.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I think that is very situation specific and relationship specific. There's some relationships where, like, if your intention is, I'm going to forgive this person, but I. Lesson learned. Like, you know the example that you gave. Right. Like, I also am not going to help you and I, we're not really friends anymore. Like, the relationship is over. I'm not. I've forgiven you. You probably don't have to have that. You may decide, I don't need to have that conversation because we're not continuing in the relationship.

[Noah Michelson]

Yes. Right.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

In ongoing relationships, there are also Things that sometimes we decide to forgive that we don't need to talk about. Like, yeah, like, your mom snaps at you and it hurt your feelings, but you didn't say anything in the moment necessarily. Right. Or, like, you kind of snapped back or whatever.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Every time that happens, you're probably not, like, getting back together and sitting down over a cup of tea. Right. Like, you both sort of just go, like, okay, well, if it's still lingering, maybe one of you comes back and will say something. But there's a lot of times where we're. We are forgiving people all the time. So as much as in the big scenarios, it feels hard. There's lots of tiny forgiveness that happens in intimate relationships of all kinds where there really isn't a lot of need for conversation.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah. You know, in my culture, this is, like, a thing that people talk about on TikTok and stuff. For South Asians, like, when a parent and a child have, like, a little bit of a conflict or whatever, the parent brings their child a bowl of cut fruit. That's like, I'm sorry. And, like, a lot of time, like, immigrant parents don't have the words. Like, there's. It's a very weird communication thing. And then if you accept the fruit, like, you forgive it and you move on. It's, like, such a sweet thing. But it makes me think about, like, what are symbols of apology and forgiveness?

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. I really like that. And I think on the other end of the spectrum, sometimes people make such a huge production out of it that it doesn't even feel genuine.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

You're absolutely right.

[Noah Michelson]

I want all this attention, and I'm forgiving you. And it's like, just calm down.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah. Not everything needs to be that serious.

[Noah Michelson]

Completely.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I love the symbolism. I just want to highlight that culturally, it happens. But I also think within relationships, like, yes, you have personal things that we do, like, oh, you know, like, my daughter and I, we'll have little conflict, and then it'll be like, do you want to get a latte?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

And it's so. I might say it, she might say it, and it's just sort of like, okay, well, now we've gone to have our coffee together, and, like, we're good.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

We good. Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Neither one of us really needs to, like, hash that out. And so I think, like, when people are thinking, like, how do I forget? How do I express my forgiveness? Like, looking for that, I think is really important. So you know how you can express it outside of just words. Wow.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

In my relationship, it's do you want to eat? Like, do you want to go get some food? I think everything with me revolves around food. At the end of the day.

[Noah Michelson]

I'm not mad about that. I love that.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[Noah Michelson]

It's a new year and a new opportunity to start fresh. What do you want your 2025 story to be?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Maybe you're itching for an exciting plot twist or feel like you're due for some interesting character development.

[Noah Michelson]

We're not talking about resolutions that will fade by February. This is about picking up the pen and becoming the author of your own life.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And you can think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create a meaningful story.

[Noah Michelson]

We are huge proponents of therapy on this show. You've heard us talk about how beneficial it's been for us in so many ways.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's right. Therapy can help you work through issues that may be holding you back and empower you to be the best version of yourself.

[Noah Michelson]

BetterHelp is fully online making therapy affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide, you.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Can access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties.

[Noah Michelson]

Write your story with better help. Visit betterhelp.com doingitwrong to get 10% off your first month, that's betterhelp. H-E-L-P.com doing it wrong I don't know about you, Noah.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

When it comes to winter, it feels like it's survival of the fittest out there. I need to do whatever I can.

[Noah Michelson]

To stay cozy totally all winter long. I have on my plushest slippers with a hot beverage in my hand just to stay functional.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I love that. Well, for the ultimate cold weather necessities made from premium materials, you've got to check out Quince. With Quince, you can treat yourself to true quality at an affordable price, something.

[Noah Michelson]

Everyone needs in their closet. Quince's iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which start.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

At $50, and their wind resistant responsible down jackets are perfect for keeping warm.

[Noah Michelson]

And snuggly no matter what you're looking for. All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And by partnering directly with top factories and cutting out the cost of the middleman, Quintz passes the savings on to you.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Quintz only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices, and they use premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece.

[Noah Michelson]

Just looking at all the cozy sweaters on their website is already warming me up and I'm actually wearing the one I bought a few months ago. Right now I can't wait for my next shipment of luxurious sweaters and scarves to arrive so I can start doing winter right.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

You deserve that, Noah.

[Noah Michelson]

Thank you.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Luxuriate in coziness without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.com wrong for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com wrong to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wrong.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

What makes a great pair of glasses? At Warby Parker, it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95, including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant and anti reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life. To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Welcome back to Am I Doing It Wrong? I have to ask you about acceptance. I feel like a lot of forgiveness is about acceptance. And I personally, personally have a lot of trouble accepting anything that I don't like. How do we sit with uncomfortable feelings? No. Are you better at that? I feel like you are.

[Noah Michelson]

I. I actually have no idea.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Okay.

[Noah Michelson]

I think I can be, but I also, I can have a hard time.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

You seem better adjusted than me in this front. Yes. Dr. Esther, tell us, how do we.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Sit with difficult emotions? You just do. Like, this is one of those answers. Like, my clients get so upset with me because they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, yeah, this is it. Like, you know, in session. I'm going to like, hold your hand.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Some of it is just sort of like, how do I soothe myself so that I can still be in this, like, not distract from, but soothe myself moment. So it might be a bowl of cut fruit or pizza or coffee or a weighted blanket or a friend who will sit with you. But like thinking about, like, how do I give myself just enough comfort to tolerate the fact that I don't like how I'm feeling?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's good. That's good. And there's a big difference between that and a martini. Like distraction.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Sedation.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's different.

[Noah Michelson]

Or doing things that actually aren't gonna be good for you.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, I think that's true.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I have friends that we drink a Lot of. I love wine. They love wine. I'm always like, it's a glass of wine, not a bottle of wine, right? Yeah, we can go get a glass of wine because we had a really hard day and, like. But if we're like, now it's a bottle of wine. Now we're. Now we're no longer processing our day. We're just trying to avoid the day.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And that's processing versus. Yeah, avoiding.

[Noah Michelson]

Absolutely. I'd love to go back to something I think we touched on earlier, Dr. Esther, where I think there's this idea that if we feel hurt or we feel angry after we've forgiven someone, we actually haven't forgiven them. But you were saying earlier that, you know, this might not happen immediately. It might not be like a really super one and done thing. Can you talk a little bit more about the emotions we might still be feeling after we've forgiven someone? And if any of that means actually it didn't count.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I think if we can embrace the idea that it's a process instead of trying to, like, dictate specific feelings, well, I've forgiven you, so I shouldn't feel angry anymore. I don't get to be resentful. I don't get to question you. I think the more important thing sometimes is to look at intensity of feeling over time. I've forgiven you. Like, you say something or we're in a similar situation or for whatever reason, I feel a little slighted or like you're not valuing me in some way, and I get angry again and I go back to this in my mind, back to that situation or bring it up again. That doesn't mean I haven't necessarily forgiven. But if I feel the same level of anger and resentment and fury six months later said, I've forgiven you. I probably haven't actually forgiven you. Like, there's some other aspect of the relationship or our dynamic or something that has to be addressed because the intensity should be dwindling and the frequency should be dwindling. It's sort of like a complicated math equation. Right? Like, I can think of things that I just find them particularly triggering. Like, so, like, if somebody. I'm in a relationship with somebody and they do something and I feel really hurt and I feel like they didn't are not extending me any grace. Like, there's no room for me to make mistakes or something like that, and I'm really angry about that, I can forgive them, them. But the next time it happens six months later, the intensity might really be there. But in Those six months, I didn't think about it. We've had other conflict. Like, it's been fine, but it's sort of like if you bring me back to that exact moment, that exact kind of a similar scenario, it can flare a little bit.

[Noah Michelson]

Sure.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

And then I can through it. So, like, I don't. I know that we really want, like, a much more like a cleaner equation for it, but it is sort of looking at those two things and does it feel like I'm moving forward? I think is a really useful question to ask.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

The reality is that we can't determine if someone's forgiven us or not. We can only determine if this new. This new version of our relationship is going to work for us or not.

[Noah Michelson]

This makes me think too, about what the purpose of the forgiveness is in a certain situation. I think about friends who have been cheated on by their partner, and they forgive them. But even just watching them interact, you can just see that the partner who had been cheated on still has a lot of resentment and still is really worried that it's going to happen again. And it seems like they haven't dealt with that underlying issue. And that's where I feel like they need to see someone like Dr. Esther. They actually need some maybe professional help to deal with what happened, because they can't actually forgive until they really have dealt with you.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Like, dig into the wound.

[Noah Michelson]

I always say if it's still infected, it's probably not going to heal.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I think that that's a really great example. And the one I often go to is like, cheating. There are other ways in which we can feel meaningfully betrayed by someone in a relationship, and it substantially changes the relationship. And I think that this is where people get stuck, find themselves kind of like, then in this relationship that isn't moving forward or where it's, as you said, like, you're still resentful, you're still mistrustful, and that part's not getting better. I think we have to acknowledge that piece, like, forgiveness does not suddenly make us go backwards. Life only moves forward. And so if this huge breach has happened, even if you forgive, the forgiveness is just a component of what is to come forward. Right. Like, and so you do have to kind of get into the wound, like, why did this happen? What needs to change? But you also have to recognize, like, because of this incident, this relationship is forever changed.

[Noah Michelson]

Right?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

It doesn't always have to be for the worst, but it is forever and irrevocably changed. And if both partners are not really kind of owning that and actively working on, like, so what does the future look like? Then it just sort of becomes this very stagnant, very painful experience for both people.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's brilliant that, like, sometimes when a big breach happens, like it's a new version of yourselves, like, you can't really undo that. So, like, what, what's next? Right, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Over the last 75 years, over 10,000 chemicals have been introduced to our food supply, yet the EU only allows 300 food additives. But at Thrive Market, we bring our members the highest quality brands and restrict more than 1,000 ingredients found at conventional grocery stores. Making the switch is easy with our Healthy Swaps scanner, which finds better versions of all your favorite pantry, snacking and home essentials without the added junk dyes and fillers. Plus, it's all delivered straight to your door. So if you're looking to shop at a grocery store that actually cares about your health, go to thrivemarket.com podcast and you'll get 30% off your first order and a free gift.

[Noah Michelson]

Hold that serve. There's no time for pickleball, because you're going to want to hear this. NOOM now has GLP1s.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

No way.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Oh, yes way. Friend psychology and meds.

[Noah Michelson]

That's how Noom helps you lose the.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Weight and keep it off.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's really smart.

[Noah Michelson]

Oh, Danny. It's Noom smart. And they start at just 149 bucks and they're shipped to your door in seven days.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Holy smokes, that's fast.

[Noah Michelson]

But not as fast as my service game. Hey, who's ready to get pickled?

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Get started with Noom GLP1 today. Not all customers will medically qualify for prescription medications. Compounded medications are not reviewed by the FDA for safety, efficacy, or quality.

[Noah Michelson]

Lemonade sings a pet insurance customer review.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

My new puppy swallowed a bone.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Still a good boy, though. And boy, was I glad that I.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Had lived my life. I was paid back quickly and efficiently. Everyone was so nice.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Get this pet insurance.

[Noah Michelson]

And get a'[e-mail].

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Peter.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Welcome back to Am I Doing It Wrong? Empathy. I feel like something. I have a friend named Patia. She's a perfect example. She is so empathetic toward people that when people have done her wrong, she often will think about why, you know, why they did it, where they're coming from, what trauma they may be experiencing is. She's an angel and I cannot do that. She has a lot of empathy. How much empathy do we need to have. Where do we get it from?

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

You know, empathy is both a thing. We. I think most of us have a general set point based on kind of our nature and nurture coming up. Right. And you can cultivate lots more empathy for people. It is necessary. Empathy and compassion for others is necessary. I actually think one of the best ways for us to cultivate more of it is. Is to be focused on our own self. Compassion and empathy. Self. The better. The more I can forgive myself, the more I understand and kind of put my own flaws, failures, mistakes in context of being human. Easier it is for me to see other people. And I think two things happen. One, I think that people tend to think of, like, empathy and compassion as, like, absolving people. I can. I'm a therapist. I have empathy for every. Like, I can talk to you for 20 minutes and ask a couple questions and probably piece together a reasonably accurate idea of, like, why you did what you did. And it was so hurtful. And also, it was still hurtful, like, intent. And the rationale behind it does not change its impact. And so, like, we still have to set boundaries. And so I worry sometimes about people who tend to go to the empathy piece first.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Because then are we forgetting about taking care of ourselves? Are we setting really good boundaries? Are we actually letting people know when they hurt us so that they have an opportunity to change behavior, to make sure that we're in healthy relationships that are reciprocal and not just like I pour into the whole entire world and then people just do whatever they want. We want to moderate that empathy, but it is something that you can work on again, I think, starting with yourself.

[Noah Michelson]

When I first started therapy When I was 21 years old, my therapist, Gail, loved her. She said after a couple months, she was like, I think that you have too much empathy. She was like, it's like, if human beings are windows, she's like, your window is all the way up and you don't have a screen on it. And anything that wants to come through comes through. And it's like you're saying, Dr. Esther. She was like, you need to figure out how to set some boundaries. Because without healthy boundaries, it's actually not good for you or the other person.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Sure.

[Noah Michelson]

It blew my mind.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

I never thought of it that way before. And that is what is something I've worked on for the last 25 years, is trying to figure out how can you be empathetic, really care about people, but also not do it so much that it's bad for everybody?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's why Therapy is so cool, for sure. Like, I feel like I get the energy from you, Noah, that, like, you still are extremely empathetic. Like, you understand people's situations.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

But like, do not fuck over your boundaries.

[Noah Michelson]

Yes. And it took a long time to get there.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

But I think that that visualization was one thing. That, that's why. Yeah. Therapy is so cool. Because someone else, a third party, pretty objective, is saying, think about it in this way.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

And I love that.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah, it's dope.

[Noah Michelson]

Dr. Esther, what have you seen? I've. I've read that scientists have studied what happens in the brain when people forgive. And there are actually like, physical things that can happen. What do you know about what's going on when we forgive people?

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

So I will say I'm definitely not a brain expert, although I geek out on all the little articles and the data. What I will say, just like, more experientially working with people is I feel like a little bit of a broken record coming back to like, forgiveness of self.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

But I feel like that is the most powerful experience. Watching people, even in the process of trying to forgive someone else, recognize the ways in which they have been holding on to a lot of, like, criticism and judgment and anger and mistrust with themselves. It is incredible how their relationship to the entire world changes. Like, forgiveness really does kind of open us up to a place of, like, reducing our anxiety. For some people, it changes like their experiences of depression and then relationally just feeling like you can be more intimately connected. You know, when I talked about when there's betrayal, how it changes a relationship for some people when they put in the work and forgiveness is part of that equation. The new relationship is actually more intimate. It is more emotionally connective, like on the other side of this work. And this, the process of forgiveness can be a different kind of vulnerability. And I think, you know, you're talking about this, like learning to have boundaries and care more deeply at the very same time. I feel like that's a game changer for a lot of people.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

You know, when you're talking about self compassion before, I was thinking about how mean people, people who are generally mean to other people are so mean to themselves.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

So mean. They, they like the self talk. Like just the negativity.

[Noah Michelson]

Hurt people, hurt people. And I think that's so true.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Hard to watch. But then you, like, understand. I'm on a constant journey of self forgiveness. Like, there are things that when I six, seven years old, that I feel bad about. Any advice about? I feel Like, I'm pretty balanced and I know, I feel like I'm a good person, but like what, what are, what's the process of forgiving yourself?

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

This is such. This is like one of my favorite questions. Well, it gets me to talk about one of my favorite things, which is really digging into the self compassion piece. Because I think that that is if we want some sort of steps and things to do. This is like the framework that I think is most effective. So self compassion is kind of made up of three core pillars. Self kindness, mindful awareness, common humanity, which I think of as like connection. If you just develop like a daily practice where you thought about those three things, it will help you to get better and better at forgiving yourself. So the self kindness is really just. Can you be thoughtful about how you talk to yourself? All the self care activities you do, not just the fun ones, but like going to the doctor and showing up for your therapy appointments and, you know, all of these things, like learning actually being really intentional. And I, I tend to do it with like really basic questions. So you get up every day and before you even. I like to do it before you get out of bed, take like three deep breaths and then you're just, how do I really feel today? What do I need today? How can I be more tender or gentle with myself today? In that order? Because figuring out how you really feel will inform the answers to the next two questions. Like those three questions on a daily basis take like 3 minutes, 5 minutes. Sometimes it takes us longer to figure out how we really feel than we think it should. But like, I think those three questions really kind of pave the path to making it much easier to work on self forgiveness.

[Noah Michelson]

You know what's so interesting about that? I mean, it is three simple questions, but they're actually pretty radical.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah, it choked me up.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. No, before we came in today, I had a really bad morning and I was walking to the subway with Benji, my boyfriend and our dog. And I was, he was asking me about my day. And the more we talked, the more I was just like, I'm in a horrible mood.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

And I had to start thinking about why do. How do I feel? And then why do I feel this way?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

And I started to unpack it and I was like, oh, there's this thing I'm thinking about and I'm worried about this. And I started to like triangulate my life and understand my mood. But I think you're right, Dr. Esther. I don't think a lot of people actually really Think how do I feel right now? How am I feeling this morning? And I think just starting there is such a radical place to start.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah, I think the word gentle really caught me off guard. Like, how do we be more gentle with ourselves? Yeah, I think that's super important. I think about how I talk to myself when I'm feeling really anxious. You know, my therapist has talked to me about accessing my inner 16 year old and like, and even like 7, 8 year old because that's what's happening. Like when we get upset about something, it's like we sometimes become a kid again or like something's bubbling up. We need to be more gentle.

[Noah Michelson]

Right. Forgiveness maybe is another way also of thinking there's obviously like forgiveness in the traditional sense, but also forgiveness for ourselves maybe is just kind of saying, I understand why I feel this way and I'm not going to be quite so.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Hard on myself and judgmental.

[Noah Michelson]

Exactly. So maybe you're not actively forgiving yourself for something, but you're just like you said, being more tender, being more gentle and giving yourself a little more credit, a little more slack, room space. Yeah, I like that idea.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I really try very hard to practice it daily myself in large part because I see how it, it changes things for people and like, it's very, it feels very simplistic. And I think a lot of times when, you know, my, like any of us as therapists, we talk about like, you know, how do you do the work, how do you sit with your feelings? Like, the honest answers tend to be very like broad and ambiguous and it's hard to like wrap your hands around. But I'm like, just these three couple of things really. There's this internal shift that happens over time that, I mean, I've had clients come back and just be like, I would just did it because you said it was like homework. And most of my clients are very type A and they do the homework because I said it was homework. You know, six months later they're like, I just show up for my life differently.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, it's truly that. Can you tell us anything about the physical benefits of forgiveness? Like, what does it do to our body if we can actually authentically forgive?

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I mean, the short answer I would say is like, you know, lower blood pressure, deeper breathing, less actual like body tension. We really, most of us are very unaware of the ways that we carry our emotions in our bodies. People just get used to like, oh, I always, I have a stomachache every day.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

You shouldn't have a stomach every Day.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yes, yes. There's something going on.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Yeah, yeah, there's something going on. And you know, maybe it's what you're eating, but probably it is holding onto some anger, some resentment, some hurt. Whether it's directed at other people or directed at yourself or both. Like, we hold that stuff inside of our bodies in ways that we just don't pay attention to. And so I think anytime I have clients, obviously first go see your primary care doctor. But anytime working with somebody where they're talking about things like high blood pressure, anxiety, palpitations, headaches, neck pain, back pain, digestive issues, that's the place that I go first, is like, what are we not forgiving and what are we not grieving? And often those two things go. End up happening together. Usually there's something to grieve if there's something we need to forgive.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That shit is so real. And I think about New York City, like 50% of the population has IBS or some version of like shitting and not shitting all the time. Like, it's just a mess, stomach pain. And I'm thinking about it used to be very woo woo to be like, our stress is contributing to this course it is, of course.

[Noah Michelson]

Or like not your mental health, not being able to sleep. Think about how many people can't sleep or get poor sleep. Yeah. The mind body connection is so real.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

What about Dr. Esther? Are there times when we shouldn't forgive someone? You know, and, and, and if so, are the, what are the signs that we shouldn't forgive them or we're not ready to forgive them?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And I just want to add to that. This is a great conversation for structurally marginalized people. I feel like I've, I've edited an essay where somebody's talking about how like queer people are, are very often shoved into this, like very Christian coded, like forgive and all of that stuff when. No, like, I don't need to forgive you for being homophobic toward me or racist toward me or like, whatever, you know?

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I mean, I generally go to like, there's a baseline. Right. If, if what you're doing is dehumanizing, there's no forgiveness for that. Yeah, yeah. I think forgiveness sort of has to be built on a foundation of basic human humanity. And so if we're talking about the, you know, people who are, have done things, have said things that uphold systems that dehumanize you in any way, I don't believe that you have any moral obligation to forgive them. But more importantly, I don't see the Psychological benefits of working to forgive, I would be much more. Again, like, I'm always going to bring it back to, like, what is the most healing thing for you? Trying to forgive, like, systemic oppression. Trying to forgive, you know, a racist family member or, you know, a homophobic, you know, church community that you belong to versus working on maybe forgiving the parts of yourself that was indoctrinated into.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Some of those things that is slay.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

That is explicit in some of your own oppression or harm or the harm of others that, you know, belong to the same community or the same identity issue. Like, that's work that's worth doing from a mental health and psychological perspective as opposed to trying to forgive people and organizations who are not actively working to make amends.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I think that that's also an important piece. Like forgiving. Let's make it even. Making it more interpersonal. Right. Like, forgiving a cheating partner who is continuing to cheat on you does not serve. That doesn't serve your growth, your healing, your, you know, the life that you want to have for yourself. So, like, that's not the. That's the least important work we could be doing right now.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I love what you said about, you know, forgiving yourself for being complicit to some of these behaviors, because I'm thinking about it, and I've definitely been complicit to, like, a colonized mindset and, like, unknowingly participated in it. So as I examine those things, I'm just like, okay, Raj, you know, better. You're gonna do better. Like, all that stuff is gonna exist, and I'm gonna let it. Whatever. I'm not letting it in. But, like, have to continue to work on myself.

[Noah Michelson]

And also, there are reasons why you were complicit in it, because we live in a world where there are brainwashed.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. And insidious structures that we're all part of, and it's very hard not to be so sort of acknowledging that as well. And again, being gentle, being tender with yourself.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yes.

[Noah Michelson]

And saying you did this or you're struggling with this as days go by, even I think that that's really important. I also think, too. I love what you're saying, Dr. Esther, about, you know, if someone's actively still dehumanizing you and how important it is to recognize that. But I would also imagine then you're going to tell us that if you have someone who, you know, your homophobic uncle who does come around and does change the way that they think and is able to make that change, that in that instance, that seems like a good time to maybe forgive someone.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

I think it's a good time to consider, you know, and. And what does forgiveness mean and look like to you?

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

And I think just generally, I find societally, this is our pressure, is you're forgiving so you can repair relationship.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

And definitely in, like, family, there's a lot. My experiences, there's a lot of pressure around that.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

And so I'm always encouraging people to, like, define it for yourself. You might decide, like, you know what? I really respect that he's come around, that he's done the work and is apologetic and remorseful for some of the things that he did. And also the things that he said and did to me or around me, I do not want that in my life in any meaningful way, period. And so I can forgive that version of him or I can learn to accept that he's grown from that place. And also, that doesn't necessarily change my boundaries about how we spend time together. And so, like, that process of, again, making forgiveness very personal. What it looks like in relationship is not cookie cutter. You have to decide, does your forgiveness, is that the first step on a road to reconciliation, or is it simply about allowing yourself to be free of and accept that every human being evolves over time. So here's this new version of him.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And I love the wiggle room that we're allowed to have. Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

So liberating. Giving yourself permission to decide in. In each instance whether or not you.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

What degree.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. And not just forgiving, because that's what our culture, our society has said we should do or because someone has made amends in some way. I love that you're saying no, you still have to decide whether or not that actually is the healthiest thing for you.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah. And I just want to point out that I said Christian coded, but I don't mean to singular, like, to, you know, single out any religion, because all organized religion is going to tell you that, like, something great is going to happen to you if you forgive.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

When in reality, it's a lot more complicated than that.

[Noah Michelson]

Absolutely.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Something great happens when you forgive yourself. Do that one first, see how you feel afterwards.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah. That's all it is.

[Noah Michelson]

I love that.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I love using the, like, very woo TikTok phrase. I receive that when someone apologizes to me, and I feel like it kind of pertains in this situation. Like, I received a lot of, like, very freeing information today.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And I. I'm ready to process it.

[Noah Michelson]

And I think for so many People, like we were saying earlier, we just don't think about this stuff enough. We don't talk about it enough. We don't understand how it applies to ourselves.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

And just having a conversation about it for 40 minutes, it opens a lot of doors.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

It does, it does. Yeah. But with screens.

[Noah Michelson]

But with screen. Screen doors.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Screen doors. A little balance. Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Dr. Esther, thank you so much for being here.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Thank you guys so much for having me.

[Noah Michelson]

It's time for Better in Five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Number one, forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation. It's simply the releasing of anger or hurt.

[Noah Michelson]

Number two, there are no set steps or stages to forgiveness. Every situation is going to be different.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Number three, you don't need an apology to forgive someone, but it might help the process.

[Noah Michelson]

Number four, empathy is really important, but too much of it without any boundaries can be dangerous for us.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And number five, you are never obligated to forgive other people, but it's always a good idea to forgive yourself.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay, Raj, after that beautiful episode, I loved it.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

It was wonderful.

[Noah Michelson]

So good. But do you think that you've been doing forgiveness wrong?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah, I think I've been doing okay. But the thing I really took from it is there are degrees of forgiveness. It's kind of a spectrum. I'm gonna think about that, examine that a lot more, and pertain it to my life. And then also I wanna work on forgiving myself for certain things. I think I don't need to carry that with me. What about you?

[Noah Michelson]

I just love the permission she gave us to really think about forgiveness and whether or not it's gonna serve us. And I think culturally, so often, especially in this country, like, there's this idea that, like, forgiveness is always the best thing. It's pushed on us, no matter what happened, even if the person hasn't said they're sorry. Like, it's gonna just be better.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

If you just forgive. Forgive and forget.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Horseshit. Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. I love to thinking really critically about forgiveness and why we do it and when it's gonna be good for us and maybe when it's not gonna be good for us.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I'm totally with you.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. Just kind of life changing. Anyway, until next time, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Love, y'all.

[Noah Michelson]

Do you have something you think you're doing wrong? Email [e-mail] and let us know.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Only Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service when you buy a new 5G phone. Oh, like a BOGO. A BOGO. Buy one get one BOGO. Well, technically it's buy one phone, get one year. So BOP goy ah bop goy. Get the Boost Mobile bop goy deal bopgoy with Boost Mobile Bob goy bob goy bob goy. This is the best idea we've ever had. When you purchase an eligible device, you.

[Dr. Esther Boykin]

Get $25 off every month for 12.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Months with credits totaling one year of free service. Taxes extra for the device and service plan online only. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for Career Day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

[Noah Michelson]

Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to Be to Be this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Do you ever think about switching insurance.

[Noah Michelson]

Companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Home and auto policies.

[Noah Michelson]

Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you still think Discover isn't widely accepted?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past.

[Noah Michelson]

Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And every time you make a purchase.

[Noah Michelson]

With your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] creditcard based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.