Raj Panjabi Johnson (2:26)

That's right.

Noah Michelson (2:27)

And it sounds like maybe she is, because even Dr. Butthole, as I like to talk about him, is talking about fiber.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (2:33)

Oh, he knows.

Noah Michelson (2:34)

Yeah. So it was just kind of nice to see, like, our topics running wild out in the world. And I was just like, oh, we. We're actually on top of it.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (2:42)

I want to be like, you heard it here first, but you heard it from Dr. Goldstein.

Noah Michelson (2:46)

Yeah. Anyways, we have a new topic this week.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (2:48)

Okay.

Noah Michelson (2:49)

I want to know, are you doing breakups wrong?

Shadeen Francis (2:52)

Oh, my God.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (2:53)

You and I in the world knows. I have never done a breakup right in my life. Who amongst us have you ever. Do you do breakups right?

Noah Michelson (3:02)

No. We're going to get into this, but I was not a ghoster, but I was a slow fader. I would just sort of, like, dip out of people's lives because I was too chicken to actually tell them how I felt.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (3:11)

That's fair.

Noah Michelson (3:12)

No, it's so unfair, actually. It's awful.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (3:15)

I'm protecting you, but I appreciate that.

Noah Michelson (3:18)

But, like, no, I'm a terrible breaker upper, and I would like to meet someone actually who's a good breaker upper. I don't know if that is this.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (3:25)

Person has not ever been in love then.

Noah Michelson (3:27)

But maybe after this show, everyone will be better.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (3:30)

We have someone to coach us, though. Shadeen Francis is a psychotherapist, sex therapist, and cultural strategist whose expertise bridges mental health, relational wellness, and social justice.

Noah Michelson (3:41)

All right, let's ditch that relationship.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (3:43)

Not yet.

Noah Michelson (3:47)

Shadeen, thank you for being here.

Shadeen Francis (3:49)

Thanks for having me.

Noah Michelson (3:50)

Yeah. So before we start, I guess we should just say, obviously breakups are not a one size fits all situation. They're always going to be different depending on who's been in the relationship, what's happening. But we're going to try and get, like, to the meat of most of things that could happen, I think, before we get there. What should we do before we even think about breaking up? You know, if we see the signs that maybe we're headed that way. What's your advice? If we're seeing the red lights flashing.

Shadeen Francis (4:16)

I invite people to check in with themselves. Which sounds like, you know, very straightforward advice, except you will notice how quickly folks go from, oh, something's wrong to should we break up?

Noah Michelson (4:27)

Right?

Shadeen Francis (4:28)

And even just being able to slow down that moment enough to check in. Like, what is happening for me right now? Is this a feeling? Is this a reaction to a moment? Are we in an immediate crisis or has this been, like, brewing for some time? Being able to just, like, slow down and check in around. Is this about something that I'm feeling right now, or is this about something that I'm reacting to in sort of the larger pattern of our relationship?

Noah Michelson (4:58)

Okay.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (4:59)

You know, my therapist once said something similar to me when I was like, Panicking about a previous relationship and being like, are we going to break up? And she was like, look, you guys are having a conflict right now. But breakups happen for the most part when there's been a growing problem or like a pattern of things, and then it becomes unbearable or whatever. So, like, think you really gotta. Checking in with yourself is such good advice. And related to that, I wanted to ask, like, chances. How many chances are we giving something before it becomes a pattern? You know, like first, second, third, or is it just kind of like, depends on the situation?

Shadeen Francis (5:36)

It's going to depend on not just the situation, but the person. Right. That some of us have different patience for different kinds of frustrations or frictions. Many things grow quietly over time. As we were just saying, some things are an immediate, like, red flag or hard cross of the boundary. And we do kind of have a sense of the things that are like, oh, no, if this happens between us or if this happens out in the world, like, I am out out. And so more than like, how many chances do you give someone it's checking in on, like, where does this fall in terms of my boundaries? Because most issues actually aren't urgent when I'm working with folks. And I tend to see a lot of, like, high conflict couples, people who have been fighting for a long time. This question really does become, like, how do I know when it's time to call it quits? Like, you know, the should I stay, should I go? Conversation is kind of one for the ages. And it has a lot to do with, like, when are you done trying to work on this?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (6:40)

And as a therapist, do you notice that some people have more tools than others? Like, like you said, patience is that about, like, you're more equipped to kind of handle conflict, whereas other people maybe aren't as much?

Shadeen Francis (6:54)

Well, something like patience has a lot to do with how much you can kind of hold in a moment without an immediate response. And that doesn't mean you're passive. It just means you're not quick to disrupt or interrupt a situation in the exact moment it's happening. You have enough sort of emotional tolerance to be intentional rather than just reactive. That's mostly what patience is. People think that it's like, oh, I'm fine with everyone. It's more about how you can delay your own sort of instinctual response to, like, handle it now.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (7:29)

And like, being with discomfort.

Noah Michelson (7:31)

Yeah, you know what? I have a very healthy relationship with my boyfriend, which I'm very happy to say, but like, that I started therapy last year. I'M probably gonna talk about it so much this season. Cause I love therapy. I'm like the cliche when you get back in therapy and you're like, all I wanna talk about is therapy. But one of the things I'm working on too, is, like, having that moment of delay as well. I feel something and not reacting immediately. So I think even in good relationships, that's also.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (7:54)

That's always been my problem.

Noah Michelson (7:56)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (7:57)

Right. And it can be as simple as, like a three second pause. Yes. And you don't notice how long three seconds is until you're in conflict or in a conversation like this. And it's just de. That's it.

Noah Michelson (8:11)

It's terrifying. That is terrifying.

Shadeen Francis (8:12)

All of a sudden we're all like, right.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (8:15)

But I could see how that could be, like, life changing. Because sometimes I react even before the other person has stopped talking with the like, are you fucking kidding me?

Noah Michelson (8:23)

Right? Right.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (8:24)

Perhaps the three seconds would be wonderful.

Shadeen Francis (8:27)

It makes a huge difference. And the. The overlap is really normal in conversation. But when we up the ante and turn this into conflict, it is meaningful for us to slow down because we're going to miss a lot of what's happening just for the pure fact that, like, I'm in my feelings. And usually they're pretty big feelings. And so to circle this back to your question around, like, how does this show up maybe differently for people with different tools? Yes, patience is a skill because it might allow more space in a conversation for feelings to come out. And sometimes we need a little bit of time to get to our truths. But also, it can be really helpful in these breakup conversations. Anyone who makes a practice of naming how they feel regularly. And so, yes, you can start here at the end. It's not maybe our favorite place to start, but starting is better than not. Our breakups go better if people had a sense that, oh, there are things that we could be working on that aren't going well. For me, that makes sense.

Noah Michelson (9:33)

I mean, we are gonna move into the breakup now. That's why we're here, to talk about breakups. And I think Raj and I are excited to talk, like, sort of nuts and bolts about breakups. We could do it at a very high level. But let's get into some of the things. Like, you decided you're gonna break up. Are there better places or times to do it? Like, just where would you.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (9:53)

Logistics.

Noah Michelson (9:53)

Logistics of it. Yeah. Like, let's start with, like, location. Where is a good place to do it or not do it?

Shadeen Francis (10:00)

So we're gonna have this conversation with the assumption that folks are not in danger.

Noah Michelson (10:06)

Yeah, yeah.

Shadeen Francis (10:07)

So I want to start there because for anyone who is in a relationship that they're trying to leave for threats of safety, Right. Physical safety, financial harm, even some of our like more intense like emotional manipulations, those are going to require some different considerations. And so the thing that I can say there is you're probably going to want public, you're prob. Probably going to want someone to know where you are and where you're going after. It's probably a good idea to have a plan for if things were to escalate in terms of how do you get access to your things, do you have access to your accounts? Right. Where is your support, community, things like that. But for the average breakup of like, oh, we have a relationship that isn't going well for me or for us because it can, it can be a mutual thing that we're working on. Neutral space is usually pretty good. Or if you're not living together, like doing it at their place, which people have all sorts of feelings about. But if you're being the bearer of bad news, allowing someone to like be in their comfort space and not have to take a 45 minute, you know, train ride after this, you know, you can leave when you're done and you don't have to feel like you have to wait for them to finish their emotional process for you to transition. That quite often doing it either in completely neutral territory or their space is helpful. But also acknowledging that some people have long distance relationships. So again, it might be a little controversial, but I'm not anti like phone call or FaceTime or text message because are you going to travel four hours to break up with someone and then travel back? Some of the logistics don't really make sense.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (11:50)

I did that once I traveled somewhere because.

Shadeen Francis (11:54)

How'd that feel?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (11:55)

It felt better to me. I needed. But I was the one that had to travel home and I was the breaker upper. So I had mentally prepared. But the in person, if you really care about someone and it's not like a volatile situation, it's more like I wish you well type of thing.

Noah Michelson (12:08)

Yeah. Show them that respect.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (12:10)

Meaningful.

Noah Michelson (12:10)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (12:11)

But it's all about like what kind.

Shadeen Francis (12:12)

Of breakup it is.

Noah Michelson (12:13)

I will say too, I had a. My last breakup was really bad and he dumped me like in the streets of New York and I had like a breakdown on the street that was, that was not pretty and I felt like kind of unique. Kind.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (12:28)

Yes.

Noah Michelson (12:28)

And the other thing he did too is not just that space but we. We were kind of having a rough time. And then we went to dinner, and he was so nice to me at dinner, held my hands. Like, I was like, oh, things are getting better for us. And then after dinner, he dumped me. And I was like, why did we go to dinner first? Why were you so nice to me before dinner? And I think it probably had to do with his own.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (12:48)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (12:49)

But I would say my advice would be, like, don't, like, just do it. Like, don't lead someone through that nonsense.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (12:55)

People have their own garbage.

Noah Michelson (12:57)

Yeah. You have thoughts about that.

Shadeen Francis (13:01)

I imagine part of what was really hard about that is the. It feels like a flip.

Noah Michelson (13:06)

Yes.

Shadeen Francis (13:07)

And so now it feels disingenuous, all of the exchange that we had to this point at a different level of vulnerability. And to bridge even both of your experiences, you traveling all of this way and making this effort to be in person. But then we're also acknowledging, oh, not all in person is considered equal. I would love for us to remember, even as we're leaving a relationship, that we're leaving, not just the relationship, we're leaving a person. And we might have complicated feelings about this person at the end of the day, but if we can aim for a good goodbye, it does all of us a great service to not continue to put, you know, sort of harmful or negative energy out into the space. And some people might be like, I don't. I don't owe you that. You know, especially when get to a place in a relationship where we felt really betrayed. Right, Right. Or where there's been a lot of, like, contempt now. So over the time, we've lost not just love for each other, a felt sense of love for each other. But contempt is, I no longer respect you. And so it can be really hard to show up, well for people when we don't have respect for them. So I invite people to think of it as respect for yourself. Right. That as you are ending a thing, the cleaner you can end it for yourself. That really sets you up for the kind of trajectory that you want to be on for future relationships.

Noah Michelson (14:33)

I love that.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (14:34)

I just had this conversation with my current partner the other day. We were talking about how even though we've, like, really hated some people that we've broken up with in the past, that we've always, we think, taken the high road. Because if you don't, it will follow you. Like, just the guilt and the, like, crazy. Like, we've been, like, we. We wanted to say other things and do other things and, like, perhaps step out on them and whatever. But, like, something was like, that's gonna ruin us. That's, like, doing a disservice to us and who we believe we are. I'm, you know, an anxious person. I'm a Scorpio, like, whatever that means. I wanted to be terrible to people, but, like, I'm like, how am I gonna feel about myself tomorrow?

Noah Michelson (15:16)

I'm proud of you. That's great.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (15:20)

You know what I mean? It's exactly what you're saying. It's, like, about us at the end, how we feel about ourselves.

Shadeen Francis (15:25)

And there is no, like, erasure of history. Even if we start a new relationship, everything that came before it isn't gone. And so the way that we close does impact the way that we open and all of that time in between. And I do think it costs us something ethically, spiritually, emotionally to do harm when it could have been prevented.

Noah Michelson (15:52)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (15:52)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (15:52)

And that's not the same as, like, oh, I hurt someone's feelings.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (15:56)

Totally different.

Shadeen Francis (15:57)

That is inevitable. And there are going to be harms that happen in the world. We're going to have pain and negative feelings. That's just the reality of being. But when we put sort of the extra energy into being cruel, there is a cost. There is an emotional cost, and I would love for us to stay in touch with that. I'm not anti guilt. I think people, as a therapist, imagine that I'm like, you know, and I smile a lot, you know, So I think. I think because all of my work is centered around emotions that people assume, oh, I'm going to center, like, happiness and pride and all of these things. My work is a lot about grief and rage. And that's not just because of the place that people come in at and, you know, in crisis, but it's because those are places where, if we had different skills, we would actually perpetuate less trauma with each other. So if I can be angry but not turn to violence.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (16:57)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (16:57)

I can do what anger wants us to do, which is advocate for our crossed boundaries or unmet needs. And I actually don't have to call you a blankety, blank, blank, blank, blank, blanket. Yes. You know, even though it feels good.

Noah Michelson (17:08)

That's a great point. So when we're actually in the conversation about the breakup, I love this idea of, like, trying to choose to do as good as you can or trying to do the least amount of trauma that you can. What else should we be thinking about? I've read somewhere, like, use I statements, you know, what would you suggest in the actual heart of the conversation.

Shadeen Francis (17:30)

Yeah. Our breakups use a lot of the same tools as, like, good fighting, Even though your breakup doesn't have to be a fight because it can be mutual, but the same rules kind of apply. So I do love me an I statement.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (17:43)

It was so hard to execute when you're emotional.

Shadeen Francis (17:47)

A lot of practice.

Noah Michelson (17:48)

I love a you.

Shadeen Francis (17:50)

We do love a you. We love a good you, or we. We love. We love the I caveat. Right. The I think you're. I feel like you. Right. It's so hard to tell a story without being referential of the other person. Especially if I'm mad at you.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (18:05)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (18:06)

You know, so we love a good I statement. Feeling words. Right. And I. I really try and get people to, like, dig on those feeling words. So if I'm going to be annoying, that's the most likely place where I'm gonna do it.

Noah Michelson (18:21)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (18:22)

So it's not. I feel disrespected.

Noah Michelson (18:24)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (18:24)

The question is, how does being disrespected make you feel?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (18:28)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (18:29)

Right. And so I want you to get into the emotion, not the meaning, not the judgment. And we jump to stories so quickly.

Noah Michelson (18:37)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (18:37)

And there's nothing you can do with, I feel, you know, judged. I feel disrespected. I actually don't know what that actually feels like. I know what that experience is. So I really encourage us to get really literal. Right. Even if it just has to be a body sensation. Right. Like, I can feel my blood boiling right now. And at least someone has a sense of where you're at in the moment. We don't have to justify or over explain.

Noah Michelson (19:03)

I was gonna ask about that. Right.

Shadeen Francis (19:05)

But it does help to give some clarity, some understanding. And so if this is feeling a really long list for people, the shortcut that I always give is clear and kind. Be as clear as you can be as kind as you can. And that keeps us from doing the coddling that people think that they're doing when they, like, soften things or, you know, try and beat around the bush. That's not. It's not kind. We often treat people as though they are fragile. We are tender, we are sensitive, but we're not fragile in that way. We're actually owed the respect of clarity.

Noah Michelson (19:41)

The truth.

Shadeen Francis (19:42)

Right.

Noah Michelson (19:42)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (19:42)

And so. And kind. Clear and kind.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (19:46)

How should we be responding to another person's emotions in a breakup? And they can run the spectrum.

Noah Michelson (19:54)

Absolutely.

Shadeen Francis (19:56)

People have the hardest time receiving people's anger, and anger is very likely in an unexpected breakup because it's reflective of an unmet need. Anger is the feeling that lets us know that a boundary is being crossed where a need is going unmet. And so we tend to be angry, angry about endings we don't want because what's going to happen, we're going to have needs go unmet.

Noah Michelson (20:20)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (20:21)

So people have a really hard time receiving that, especially if I'm doing the thing that is right for me, it makes you angry.

Noah Michelson (20:29)

And I feel like that emotion too is like one of the first ones that we reach for because in our culture we know about anger and so like grief or sorrow or being afraid, which is actually the emotion we might be feeling, we don't go for those.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (20:44)

Anger is less vulnerable.

Noah Michelson (20:45)

Yeah, that's the first thing we reach for, I think.

Shadeen Francis (20:48)

And it makes us feel more powerful than some of the other places. Right. We can be really self righteous in our anger and so we feel really clear in anger. But as we get to some of the others that you mentioned, sadness and fear, we have much more uncertainty and we don't love that. And it's hard for us to receive also other people's like pain, especially if we've caused it. Most of us do not want to be responsible for someone hurting. And so how do we receive that? In some ways it's taking that, you know, at least three seconds, pause, you know, two good deep belly breaths in the moment and just bearing witness to another person having a feeling. They are allowed to have the feelings that they feel. And so we're not actually listening for facts. You know that. Sure, there might be lots of truths that come out in our big feelings, but mostly this is a point in time for empathy and compassion. Empathy being like, I know what that feeling feels like. Right. I have an internal reference for what it is like to be shocked, afraid, angry, devastated, to feel rejected.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (22:03)

Rejection is so crazy for the human spirit.

Noah Michelson (22:06)

It really is.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (22:07)

It's kind of so personal.

Noah Michelson (22:09)

I found this question on Reddit. I, I have such a love hate with Reddit. I spend like, I go to bed with Reddit every night and I learn amazing stuff and then I see things that I'm like, I wish I hadn't seen that.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (22:19)

It's the whole spectrum of human.

Noah Michelson (22:20)

But I thought this question really gets at something that I think a lot of us experience when we date. So this guy said, I'm in a relationship with a girl for four or five months now. She treats me well, but I just don't feel the spark. And I don't want to prolong this because in a few years I think that I'll just be feeling like I'm stuck and I don't want to stay in it just because she's nice. But she is a nice girl and I don't want to hurt her. I just know the longer this drags on, the more it's going to hurt. What do you do in a situation like that? What do you tell someone when there is no real reason that you're breaking up with them?

Shadeen Francis (22:53)

Well, first I love their clarity and their self knowing. Even though there was a little bit of uncertainty in there. They said I just don't feel it. And so we could do a whole segue about this cultural phenom, about the spark.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (23:09)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (23:09)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (23:11)

They're saying I, I'm done and this person is nice. And that sucks.

Noah Michelson (23:16)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (23:17)

And the simple answer is like, yes, it does. Right. I mean you don't know exactly know what she feels on the other end. She actually might be mirroring that.

Noah Michelson (23:26)

That's really true.

Shadeen Francis (23:27)

Like, oh, this person is really nice.

Noah Michelson (23:29)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (23:30)

But it doesn't feel the way I know it could feel or the way I want it to feel.

Noah Michelson (23:36)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (23:37)

And so we just talk about that and we don't have to, you know, make it a negotiation if it isn't one. Right. If this person is clear, I am. I am done. The kind and clear and respectful thing that you can do for a nice person is to have a good ending with them that allows them to be in a relationship with someone who is excited to be in a relationship.

Noah Michelson (24:02)

That's right. You know, it's interesting because when I, when I posed that question, I said he's saying there's no reason why he's doing it. He did say there is a reason. But I think in my head and like in culturally we think like there isn't like you have to have an actual like X, Y and Z. This is why the relationship isn't working. And, and that's not the truth.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (24:19)

There's also, I like another segue or you know, another digression. I just think that our society is obsessed with coupledom.

Noah Michelson (24:25)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (24:26)

This person might be like feeling if there's no good reason, we don't have to break up.

Noah Michelson (24:29)

No.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (24:30)

You're fine on your own.

Noah Michelson (24:31)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (24:31)

Or with someone else.

Noah Michelson (24:33)

But I love this idea too that it can gift to that person too and say like this is not. I can't be as good to you as you deserve to be. And I think that sounds like a.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (24:40)

Cop out sometimes hard for me.

Noah Michelson (24:43)

It's you, it's. Or it's Me. It's not you. It's you. It's not me. No, it's. It's. It's me. It's not you. And I think whenever we hear that, we shut down a little bit and we think, no, you're lying. You're just not being true to me about what you don't like about me.

Shadeen Francis (24:57)

Because it is. It is overused and it's a cliche and there are ways in which it is not. Not truthful. Right. That I am actually saying there is something between us that doesn't work for me. Right, Right. And we don't actually have to soften it up.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (25:11)

You don't have to name it either.

Shadeen Francis (25:12)

Right.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (25:13)

You can say it's not a good fit.

Shadeen Francis (25:15)

Yeah. I mean, people might want more clarity than that. And so if you have it, it might be useful to offer.

Noah Michelson (25:21)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (25:22)

But in that moment, it is true that you are just communicating about yourself. I am saying this is what I am looking for. And so that doesn't have to be a judgment about another person, but we also don'. Have to do a whole, like, packaging or announcement, you know, that it's not you, it's me, you know, sort of. Sort of deal because we already start to lose each other right in that moment.

Noah Michelson (25:45)

This is kind of related maybe too, but I feel like sometimes I have friends, even they've been on a few dates, so three or four, maybe they're not in a relationship with this person. They actually don't really want a lot of rigmarole about if someone's going to dump them or say, I don't want to see you anymore. They just want to hear that and be done with it because they're just like, we don't even know each other that well. Like, you don't have to spend. A friend of mine got a text and the guy went like. It was like four paragraphs. And he's like, you're great, and I want. And she was like, just say we're not a match. What are your thoughts about that kind of situation?

Shadeen Francis (26:22)

Yeah, sometimes we, in our, like, conflict, we're doing a lot that we think is for the other person and it's for us.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (26:30)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (26:30)

So we've hung out three times and then I am sending you a book report that. That suggests, like, oh, that that might be a lot about. About my stuff coming up. Although usually well intended, like, I want to be good to you, I want to be kind to you. Sometimes we lose clarity in that. A simple rule of thumb is to let the sort of Intensity or commitment of the relationship be reflected in the closure.

Noah Michelson (26:56)

Yep.

Shadeen Francis (26:57)

Right. So in the same way that it might kind of be inappropriate to send a text message to the, to someone you're married to, to be like, hey, you know that that tone doesn't match up. That also it doesn't quite match up to like have a big, like, meeting, farewell, send off for someone that you've gone on two dates with.

Noah Michelson (27:17)

Yeah, I wouldn't want that.

Shadeen Francis (27:18)

I don't, Most people don't. It's incongruous. I mean, we have this really beautiful dinner where we're being really loving and then I break up with you on the street. Right. That when we have those, those tones that don't match, it sits with us and it complicates our closure.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (27:34)

Okay. That being said, I have strong feelings about this. Is ghosting ever okay? Is it ever appropriate?

Shadeen Francis (27:42)

I mean, we could come up with something. I'm sure my honest position on it is that it's unkind.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (27:51)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (27:51)

And I think it's only permitted because we have this, I really do believe, asocial relationship to one another through technology.

Noah Michelson (28:03)

I think you're absolutely right.

Shadeen Francis (28:05)

Yeah. I'm not, I'm not anti tech, but I do think that a lot of the ways that we have used our tech has allowed us to be antisocial even as we're in relationships. You know, we're on a date and we're both sitting here on our phones and we haven't said anything to each other, but maybe we're exchanging memes like on a digital platform, but I haven't looked you in the eye or we haven't been in physical contact. You wouldn't ghost someone, like in person. Like, imagine how weird that would be all the way.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (28:34)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (28:35)

Like I'm here with you and then I just like.

Noah Michelson (28:38)

Right.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (28:39)

Yeah. No.

Shadeen Francis (28:40)

And I never respond to you again.

Noah Michelson (28:42)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (28:43)

Ever. You just like, are saying things to.

Noah Michelson (28:45)

Me and I think that's.

Shadeen Francis (28:48)

We wouldn't do that.

Noah Michelson (28:49)

No, we wouldn't. But I think you're right. I think so many of us now don't know how to. Like, I have friends who don't even want to make a phone call to make a doctor's appointment because they are don't know how to talk to someone on the other end of the line. So the idea of actually having to sit in front of someone and say, I don't want to be with you anymore, that terrifies people.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (29:07)

I, I, I really feel judgmental about it.

Noah Michelson (29:11)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (29:11)

Just say the thing. I know it's uncomfortable. Like, I was in a situationship once where the guy kind of, like, petered off and, like, came back many months later and was like, like, I really want to be friends. I valued our friendship. And I was like, if you had told me you wanted to stop seeing me, we could have had a friendship. But you were weird about it.

Noah Michelson (29:29)

I. I am that. I was that guy.

Shadeen Francis (29:33)

Gross.

Noah Michelson (29:33)

I was. I literally. I love the slow fade. So I wouldn't just ghost someone, but I stopped texting as much and, like, you know, I wasn't as enthusiastic. And I literally, a couple months ago, so email the guy. I dated him 12 years ago, probably. And I said, listen, again, I've been in therapy.

Shadeen Francis (29:54)

So nice.

Noah Michelson (29:54)

And I have realized that the way that I ended things with you was really unfair to you. And I want to make sure that, you know, that wasn't about you.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (30:01)

Oh, so good.

Noah Michelson (30:02)

That was about me.

Shadeen Francis (30:02)

That's really generous.

Noah Michelson (30:03)

He never replied to me, and I don't need him to, you know? And maybe he didn't need that from me, but, like, yeah, I just did the slow fade. And we had been together for, like, five or six months. He deserved better than that, you know? And so I think. I think it. I think it's slimy. I think it's grimy, and I don't think we should do it, but. But I get why we do it. We aren't in touch with our feelings. We're scared.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (30:25)

It's so scary. I get it.

Shadeen Francis (30:26)

Yeah, it's uncomfortable. And I think we have a pretty low tolerance for normal discomfort. And so then we up the ante by, like, I've got 700 people in my phone right now. Right. That in. Everything feels so high stakes. But what we're talking about right now connects to where we were when we were talking about, like, how we end things we carry with us. And so you're saying, like, oof, I'm, like, reflecting on some of my history and, oh, yeah, that wasn't the best version of me. I owed someone a different kind of ending. It's not only just kind of, like, weird when we map it out on what ghosting is, but it's cruel.

Noah Michelson (31:08)

Yeah, it's.

Shadeen Francis (31:09)

It's cruel. And again, it's one thing if it's like you had some exchanges on an app, you met up one time, and neither of you reached back out. But in a circumstance where it's like, oh, I really valued our friendship, well, you wouldn't treat a friend that way. You wouldn't just ignore them or never Follow up. And yes, people get busy and yes, people fall out of touch. But for the kinds of relationships that we're talking to, there is a level of vulnerability, there is a level of access, there is a level of familiarity that it really can be heartbreaking for people. But more than that, it's confusing because the other person is trying to make sense of the disappearance. And so it is a complicated grief when people talk about grieving. If we were to make an analogous experience, because our brains actually don't know the difference between different kinds of pain, physical pain and emotional pain. Imperial impact the same regions of the brain. It's imagine losing a loved one, but you don't know what happened to them.

Noah Michelson (32:11)

Right.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (32:13)

Yeah. And I mean, I can. I can feel that in my body right now because I'm thinking about breakups that have been particularly hard where, like, this person has been such an intimate part of your life and then they're not anymore. You. It's your entire spirit kind of panics.

Shadeen Francis (32:27)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (32:28)

It's for a little while, it's really messed up. And I want to just not be high and mighty about not ghosting people because while I haven't ghosted, I have lied about the reason for the breakup to spare someone's feelings. And I'm thinking about it, and you talking about clarity, not cool. Like confusing to everyone involved.

Noah Michelson (32:47)

I also love what you said too earlier about like, how the energy then we're carrying into our next relationship. So if you're ghosting people, doing slow, you know, slow fades, you're lying to people, like, then it's habitual at some point.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (32:59)

Yes.

Noah Michelson (32:59)

And that takes a toll on you too.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (33:01)

And it all goes back to not wanting to sit.

Noah Michelson (33:03)

Discomfort. Right.

Shadeen Francis (33:04)

And it's habit forming.

Noah Michelson (33:06)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (33:06)

Which is part of, I think what you're saying in this moment. Right. That what we practice, we become.

Noah Michelson (33:11)

Yes.

Shadeen Francis (33:12)

Relationally, what we practice, we become. And so, yes, there are all of these versions of us that are untapped, but who we are in the world and who we know ourselves to be is what we do repeatedly in the world. And so if I'm repeatedly having this process of I don't share how I feel, whether or not I'm ghosting. Right. We can have all these other ways of diverting our self advocacy.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (33:37)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (33:38)

Right. That if I make a practice of that, then that's what my life will be like.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (33:43)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (33:43)

And it will not stay and it won't stay contained in your romantic partnerships. Right. For sure. If you make a practice of this with people, you're dating. You are also going to see it in family of origin. You're also going to see it in your friendships. And we don't talk about friendship breakups, but those can be incredibly painful too and have all of these same patterns. You're going to experience it at work, right? That it the more you can practice the way you want things to go, the more they will go that way. Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations and to do that we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics because we have the same questions you do, like what's really in my shampoo? Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times? You can listen to NPR's Life Kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Not every sale happens at the register. Before AT&T business Wireless, checking out customers on our mobile POS systems took too long. Basically a staring contest where everyone loses. It's crazy what people will say during an awkward silence. Now transactions are done before the silence takes place.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (34:53)

Hold.

Shadeen Francis (34:54)

That means I can focus on the task at hand and make an extra sail or two. Sometimes I do miss the bonding time. Sometimes.

Noah Michelson (35:01)

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Shadeen Francis (35:06)

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Noah Michelson (35:52)

What about your advice for someone who just got broken up with? What are some of the ways to cope?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (35:57)

Oh yeah, let's talk about that.

Noah Michelson (35:58)

You know, what do you think?

Shadeen Francis (36:01)

Yeah, a lot of the same stuff applies. Some of the pacing is often different because for the person who initiated the breakup, often they have had time to sit and get clear and so they've had a head start. Got it on all of the emotional stuff. Right. That they had a head start on the grief, they had a head start on the confusion. They, you know, have been sitting with their anger. Right. Whereas the person who is getting the news and often this is not a negotiation. So I am being delivered bad news, life changing news, future changing news. I want people to just be in the reality of that again, aiming for clear and kind as much as we can in our communication. But just be in the feelings of it. It. So grieve. Right. Weep. Turn to your people. If you're angry, be angry. I think people feel like they're not supposed to be angry, especially talking to a therapist. Be angry.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (37:01)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (37:01)

What boundaries were crossed, what needs are unmet, what self advocacy does that make you want to do other than punching somebody in the throat or like you know, creating a finsta and tagging them a bunch of places. Right. That like, what can you do to honor the reality of the wound?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (37:17)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (37:18)

Because most breakups are really painful.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (37:21)

Yeah. Can I just like rattle off all the things I've done and you can tell me what you think about it? Therapy.

Shadeen Francis (37:28)

It's like drive by therapy.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (37:30)

So much therapy, so much crying in therapy, in the fetal, just like letting it all out. And my favorite one, venting to friends. Although I'll ask you how long we're allowed to do that because girl, exercise and diet. Working out a lot, lot. Eating well, sometimes eating terribly, sometimes vices, love. I drink more when I'm going through a breakup. Smoke a lot of weed. I'm trying to be sedated. Okay. Try to live as full of life as possible. Bungee jumping, trapeze stuff. Things that make me feel adrenaline and happy and then like spiritually find myself. Read a lot of roomy. A lot of Sufism.

Shadeen Francis (38:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (38:09)

A lot of Buddhism getting deep.

Shadeen Francis (38:10)

Yeah, yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (38:12)

Any approval of any of these things?

Shadeen Francis (38:15)

I think all are great and fine. Right. That what I'm most reacting to in this moment is. Wow, you've developed a really rich toolkit for yourself.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (38:25)

She's been in the game for a little while before she got married.

Shadeen Francis (38:28)

Yeah, yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (38:29)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (38:29)

And so I love that for you. Right. That you have a range of places that you can go. For me, I'm most concerned with if we only have one thing to do. Because if that thing is not offering you the support that you need it to in the moment or, I mean, heartbreak is deeply painful and recovery is slow. Right. So we're probably going to need more than one thing. If your therapist isn't available and all you've got is therapy. What happens in the time between if we can't be cultivating other stuff? And I'm a real person who lives in the world, so I'm not like anti Use of substances or anti numbing or anti dissociation. But we what tools do we have and how are we using them? And are we clear for what? Do we have our own internal sense of, okay, when am I using this on purpose in this moment versus this is all I've got and can do. And so this is all I'm doing that lets us know the difference between, like, am I just, like, numbing? Am I creating a new kind of problem by avoiding going through the process of grief by doing all of this other stuff versus, okay, I'm in a larger process.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (39:44)

There's a goal.

Shadeen Francis (39:45)

Yeah, yeah. But I do want us to remember in all of that. And it showed up a lot, you know, in. In your list. Healing is relational. Healing is a relationship that. That wasn't me saying, go get another relationship.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (40:00)

That wasn't on my list.

Shadeen Francis (40:01)

That was it. That was it. That wasn't me saying. But it comes up a lot. Yeah, it comes up a lot. Right. The idea of, well, the best way to get over someone is to get under someone. Right, Right. So I didn't say that. Don't.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (40:12)

But can that be a thing? See, that's like barfy for me. I need a lot of time after a breakup. Like, at least a little bit of time.

Noah Michelson (40:19)

Well, I want to talk about timelines too. So you were telling me, Raj, what does Charlotte say from Sex and the City?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (40:24)

Sex and the City has this absurd thing in like season two when it's another Carrie big thing where she's like, you need to grieve for half the time you were in the relationship. So she was with Big for a year, so she needs to be sad for six months. Months. I was like, lol.

Noah Michelson (40:37)

And then I saw online too, like something called the 333 timeline. So they were saying three days of intense grieving, three weeks of self focused reflection, and three months of intentional rebuilding or personal growth before you answer.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (40:53)

Don't you love how humans, like, need.

Noah Michelson (40:55)

Oh, we love a timeline. We love like a, like a pissy, like three, three, three. What do you think about timeline?

Shadeen Francis (41:03)

I mean, in some ways it doesn't matter what I think because your grief doesn't care.

Noah Michelson (41:06)

Yeah, right.

Shadeen Francis (41:07)

Grief does not care about your timeline. We want a timeline because we don't want to be uncomfortable.

Noah Michelson (41:14)

Right, Right.

Shadeen Francis (41:15)

That grieving sucks. It sucks. It sucks to be in pain. It sucks to be heartbroken. And again, with some of like the neuroscience around this, some of the nerdy stuff that when we talk about heartbreak, that that is a literal experience. No, your heart hasn't torn itself open. But literally, when we scan the brains of people who have gone through a breakup, it is like they are experiencing intense physical agony. Wow.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (41:44)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (41:44)

So this isn't. This isn't light stuff. And not every, you know, ending is going to hit us that way. But grief is a spiritual experience, it's an emotional experience, it's a physical experience. Right. And so if you were to have a deep cut, if I tell you that you're going to be fine in three weeks, that brings us a lot of comfort. It allows us to do the things that we want to do. We're not in crisis worrying about the thing. But if it takes four weeks, you're probably not panicked, and you probably will still have a scar, and you might still be tender in that spot, and you're probably going to remember what happened to you. And I think that when it comes to breakups, people want to know how long it's going to take, but then they want it to be as if it never happen. No marks, no bruise, no scar, no change of life. Right. No memory of the pain. And that's just not the cards that we are dealt. So grief is going to take as long as it takes. The best timeline that I have to offer people when I'm working with them is that your grief is going to be proportional to how much you loved.

Noah Michelson (42:47)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (42:49)

So if you had plans for a future and you have memories of the past, you're gonna grieve it.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (42:57)

This is, again, so controversial. Should we become friends with some of our exes? Can we do that? I've heard people say that if you want to be friends with your ex, you're probably still in love with them. Is any of that true?

Shadeen Francis (43:11)

Can be. So I'm not gonna say you should be, because I'm not gonna, like, mandate, like, oh, you chose them for a romantic partnership and now you're stuck with them forever. Invite them to.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (43:21)

And they're terrible. Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (43:23)

And that is how a lot of people feel. So it'd be really unfortunate for you to have them at every birthday party for the rest of your life.

Noah Michelson (43:29)

Nightmare.

Shadeen Francis (43:30)

Or, you know, for however long you were in a relationship, you have to spend at least that half of that, you know, friends with them. Right. Like, no, I'm not going to assign a friendship. And for a lot of people, they get into relationships with people that, I like you. I like you as a person. For some people, their relationships actually end because they're like, oh, this would be a better friendship than a romantic person partnership. Because we were saying earlier that there's this pedestal around romance when sometimes we actually just want other kinds of connection. Sometimes this is a good intellectual stimulation. Maybe I just enjoy you. Maybe I like looking at you. Maybe I like touching you. Not all of that has to be like a, a real, a romantic long term escalator type of deal. So if you are partnered with someone that you're like, oh, we genuinely would be good friends. There is room for that. And actually queer community does a really great job modeling some of that. It doesn't mean it can't get messy, but relationships are messy. And because there aren't any other models, they're making them in real time. What I will also say though is that sometimes we are pursuing a friendship to try and avoid grieving the end of a relationship.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (44:39)

I've done that.

Noah Michelson (44:40)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (44:40)

I think most people have done that.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (44:42)

So painful to think about this person disappearing forever.

Shadeen Francis (44:44)

And we don't want that. And it doesn't necessarily have to be disappear forever, but it really might be there. We don't actually have a place in each other's lives anymore other than I think of you fondly.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (44:56)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (44:57)

And sometimes that that actually needs to be enough. Sometimes that is the most honest way to move forward. And again, sometimes that is also the most kind and clear. Like if we don't imagine that we could do this in a way that allows us to keep clarity and integrity with ourselves. Right. So if being friends with you is going to make me unable to move forward in connecting to other people, and that doesn't mean you're not gonna have feelings if either of you enter a new thing. That's just the reality of life. Right. If I have a sense that I am hoping that something could happen one day later on that isn't a true friend. You have to think about what are my friendships about and does this relationship meet that criteria? And then what, what sort of disentangling or separating do we need to do to make that possible in the future? Right. It doesn't have to be right now. And if there's urgency around, oh, we broke up and now we're friends, that just might be worth looking at.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (46:02)

Dig into it.

Noah Michelson (46:02)

And I think that can be unfair. If you're the one breaking up and then you're going to be friends with the other person and the other person didn't want to break up. Like I was reading online too. Again, this is like an arbitrary timeline. But they were saying you should really have have three months. Or they said give it a season between your Breakup. And when you try to be friends again so that everybody is clear, you have time to reflect, you're not just jumping in because you're hoping that maybe you're going to get back together. I kind of thought that was smart. Like give it a couple months and just then if you want to try it again, you've had, you've had a breath to see. Is this what I really want?

Shadeen Francis (46:35)

The thing that I like about the. It's called the three. Three. Three, Three.

Noah Michelson (46:40)

Yeah, right.

Shadeen Francis (46:41)

The. They had. Okay, what am I going to do in the immediate aftermath? Right. And it sounded like it was a lot about, like, be in the mess of it.

Noah Michelson (46:51)

Yes, just grieve.

Shadeen Francis (46:52)

Just grieve. Love that. And then it sounded like the next chunk was about, like reconnecting to community. Right. Being with people. Right. Who know you, who see you, who validate you, and they don't have to be like, oh, you're so great, you're so wonderful. Right. But the people that, that your life is also filled with being in Right. Relationship to them. And then it sounded like that latter part was also making sure that you are experiencing the fullness of the world.

Noah Michelson (47:23)

Yes.

Shadeen Francis (47:24)

And you know, the things that you're saying, like jumping out of a plane, you know, I'm feeling, Feeling alive and feeling alive. Remembering that you are still alive. You didn't die. Yeah, right. It hurts and you didn't die. And so when we think about like these seasons, I would love for people to allow themselves that first chunk of just being in the feeling without trying to complicate it by trying to build something new with someone that you are ending something with.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (47:53)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (47:53)

And that doesn't necessarily have to be the same as no contact. I want to make room for just. There's just so much diversity of relationships, but allowing yourself honestly the container that you need to like, be in the mess of the aftermath.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (48:10)

You know, being in the mess, I, I remember during my most hurt, hurtful breakup, I got very comfortable in the mess because people are so lovely and kind to you when you're going through a breakup. Like, truly, like, so glad that's true. My parents are so, like non judgmental and want to like, cook me food and love on me. And my girlfriends are like, okay, another weekend at the club, let's go. Like, it is shocking to see how your community will show up for you when you're in the mess. And I just want to put that out there. Like, don't be afraid to be vulnerable and start crying and be like, I'm in Pain. Can you hold me? Like, someone will hold you, I hope.

Noah Michelson (48:49)

Hopefully. I mean, you also have a great community.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (48:52)

I do. I do. Build the community. Love on your friends. When they're going through a breakup, they'll love on you. It's mad.

Noah Michelson (49:00)

Speaking of loving on your friends, how do you feel about breakups? I. I know that was kind of like. I just. Like, we're just going there. Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (49:09)

Going to the club.

Noah Michelson (49:10)

Yeah. It seems like a bad idea to me, but for.

Shadeen Francis (49:13)

For most people, it. It tends to be. We have a. A culture around sex where people use it in actually very disembodied ways.

Noah Michelson (49:23)

Yes.

Shadeen Francis (49:24)

Right. Like, the average person is having sex for all sorts of nuanced and layered ways that they're often not really aware of. So we're doing all of this exchange of something, and we're not even really thinking about it because ideally, it's fun, and at best, it feels really nice. And it can complicate an ending if we're not really clear on what it is that we're bringing here and hoping to get out of it. So in the same way that we have this really loving dinner and then I leave you on the street, what happens at the end of this intimate experience that is probably really nostalgic and maybe really heartfelt. And again, I really hope it feels nice because if it's not pleasurable, I don't get what we're doing here. Right. But we're usually working something out. And so for that same frame of a good goodbye. That can be a good goodbye if we're really clear with ourselves and with each other about what would make this a good goodbye for us. And how do we take care of ourselves and maybe extend some care to each other on the other end? Because what often happens is that we are playing out some kind of dynamic in our. Our sex life. And because we don't really talk about sex, not in, like, transparent and honest ways now we have other stuff to be working on on top of the stuff we were already working on as we close.

Noah Michelson (50:49)

Right. That makes sense.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (50:51)

And then the opposite of breakup sex. Should we be blocking this person on social media?

Shadeen Francis (50:57)

I love how those are. Those are the binaries. Yes. Yeah. I mean, whatever. Again, whatever allows you to have that period of just, like, being in the reality of your feelings. Digital space is real space and not. Yeah. And so, to use the ghosting example again, so imagine if someone is no longer in your orbit. You know they're gone, but then you.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (51:19)

See them, they keep, like, walking by your window.

Shadeen Francis (51:21)

Right. And it's like not a mirage. It like literally is them like, popping up. And we know the sorts of things we are likely to post.

Noah Michelson (51:29)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (51:30)

Right. We're posting our glow up body because I've been living in the gym, working out all of my cortisol by chasing dopamine.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (51:36)

I'm in Bali with my girlfriend.

Shadeen Francis (51:37)

Right. Like, I'm living a full life without you.

Noah Michelson (51:42)

Right. Or I'm just putting the best moments of my life because we don't put the crap on our social.

Shadeen Francis (51:48)

Absolutely. I'm part of like the MSN generation, so I'm like. I'm like subbing you, you know, in these song lyrics, you know that it's all this stuff. And I'm actually not supposed to be a part of this process. Right, right. That as I'm grieving, I'm actually not supposed to be a part of that.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (52:06)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (52:07)

And so a lot of people will. It doesn't have to be a block. Right. It might be a mute, but it could be a block. It could be a restrict. It could be an unfollow.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (52:16)

Be aware of your, like, habits, I think you're saying also. Right.

Shadeen Francis (52:20)

And notice if you find yourself checking.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (52:24)

I call it emotional cutting. I cannot. I got a block because I just am too.

Noah Michelson (52:30)

Oh. I think block and mute are two of the best tools we have in 2026.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (52:34)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (52:34)

Not just for breakups, just in general.

Shadeen Francis (52:36)

They're useful for filtering because we lose control of the things we're paying attention to. We are pushed content all of the time. The way that I tend to think about it is if you're trying to detox something, the least helpful thing that you can do is like, do a little, you know, so like, I'm getting sober, but like, every now and then I'm just going to have like a little sniff. That's not that. That. That's not actually going to help your process. Even though it feels really rewarding in the moment.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (53:04)

Just in the moment, though.

Shadeen Francis (53:05)

It feels like shit in the moment, but we don't tend to feel proud about it. Right. And it doesn't serve the larger goals. And there is a way in which, if you are tracking the same way that you would if you were trying to get sober, is that it does feel like, oh, now my counter is down to zero again, and I'm back on day one. And that's its own devastating process. And it doesn't mean anytime you see them online or anytime you check anything, but just notice if this becomes a pattern, because the relationships that we Are in especially, like, intense ones, ideally, lovingly intense. But intensity comes in all forms. Our brain doesn't make a difference between that and other kinds of addictions. So we end up literally dopamine seeking in our relationships. And so when our relationships are going well and they're healthy. Right. I get that little boost by looking you in the eye or you smile at me, or we have a good deep hug and it releases all the good chemicals and, bye, baby, see you later. Right. But in a breakup, we still want connection. We are wired first for survival and then for connection. So we are chasing that often. And some of these other ways that we can try and get those needs met don't actually help us very much and don't allow us to really connect well to other people either.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (54:28)

Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

Noah Michelson (54:29)

Block, block, block, block, block, block.

Shadeen Francis (54:32)

Pause.

Noah Michelson (54:33)

Look away.

Shadeen Francis (54:33)

Fill your schedule.

Noah Michelson (54:35)

Don't even be tempted by it. Yeah, I get tempted.

Shadeen Francis (54:38)

I mean, it's a real temptation. The temptation isn't the problem. It's just being able to know what it is that we're seeking. And is there an alternative? Right. I need a hug. There are lots of people who would be willing, likely to give you a hug if you let them know. I wish that for people. Let me at least say that. That I wish that for folks that they can continue to cultivate a richness in their lives, that the devastation of a breakup doesn't mean that they are alone and isolated in the world.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (55:10)

Right. And you said something interesting that I love. That brings up another question. You said that queer people. You've seen a lot of, like, queer people model this, like, kind of healthy relationship to friendship thing. How do our cultural and, you know, our sexual orientation and our gender identity affect how we behave, Grieve in breakups? And I, you know, I can say that I've witnessed street men withhold some grief versus where, like, women are more socially conditioned to be like, what the ha. Like me, just, like, out in these streets crying. Yeah.

Noah Michelson (55:45)

And straight men also might not have community in the same way that other folks do. You know, we know there's like, the loneliness epidemic we've talked about on the show a ton, especially for straight guys. So that's a great question.

Shadeen Francis (55:56)

Yeah. Well, I'll start where you started. When we think about queer communities, a lot of, yes, there are really great models within community is because queerness is about sort of defying some of the social scripts, particularly the binaries that don't fit. So you can you. There is room to choose more and so we're seeing people choosing things that expand all of our imaginations collectively and invite us to think about, oh, does this, does that align for me? Does that work for me? Is that something that I might want? Would I want to try that?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (56:34)

Bell hooks has this amazing quote. It's like to be queer is to be at opposition with everything in the world. And that's like so beautiful, right, that.

Shadeen Francis (56:41)

There'S so much permission and room that you, I mean it's a lot of you giving yourself permission and finding community that will also affirm that. And so what it also reflects back are some of the social scripts that we are all given, regardless of what your gender is, regardless of what your specific culture is. But we do have a lot of norms around centering romantic partnership. We do have a lot of norms, at least in sort of the western world about like public life versus private life. So there is a very individualistic culture that we are raised in on this side of the world. So the problems are my problems, right? That's not true everywhere. A breakup impacts your entire network. Think about your friends, think about your family, right, that these are relational changes that ripple across our network. But then we look at things like gender, right, that yeah, women in general are socialized more around feelings and around intimate connection. And so even if not all women are choosing to bring that to their relationships, they have more permission to be in that space. People will receive them differently. Women on average actually use more feeling words, emotion words than men. Like at an, like, I think it was like 2/3 more, right? So that's significant. Men are not generally socialized to have actual access to spaces where they can talk about feelings and even to their own internal worlds in a way that I, I think we should all feel really saddened by. I think we look at, it's easy to look at men and see the problems, right, that exist without noticing how the relationships that we have to people influence the kinds of, of tools and skills and people that they can become. So we're all part of the problem if we say, oh, men aren't good at feelings, well, then we actually need a culture that supports men being able to be in touch with their feelings and having places to express their feelings and not only act them out, but to just share them.

Noah Michelson (59:04)

Right? Because we show up on this planet with as much access to those feelings as women do or non binary people do. Like, it's not like we're built that way. We're just taught that, socialized from the earliest moments.

Shadeen Francis (59:16)

And so we see that in relationships of all kinds, but especially in romantic relationships where we've now decided that your romantic partner is supposed to fulfill, like, every need that you have. And so we're seeing all of these places where people are incredibly critical of their partners for not being able to show up for them in particular ways. And while I'm not saying it's any partner's responsibility to, like, re parent their partners, and I'm not saying parents, like, you're all failing, it's a whole culture. But for us to notice where we are experiencing gaps for ourselves, right? Taking the feedback that we receive from other people and then using that as an opportunity to say, okay, so then what didn't I learn? Or what haven't I gotten to practice that I would like to now, right. As an adult, we are responsible for ourselves. And so what kind of person do I. I want to become on the other side of this? Because it's not only, you know, men who struggle. Right. That we're also seeing that, particularly women of color don't get a lot of space. Right. The superwoman cliche, right. So they don't always get a lot of space to talk things out. And I think because we are experiencing this larger cultural shift where we have all these. I've been talking about it in terms of, like, atrophies of our social muscles. Muscles. And actually, Esther Perel talks about that really well. That people aren't sharing authentically and vulnerably in general, the amount of people who do not have a person to turn to in crisis. We should all be a little concerned about that. Not just for when the breakup happens, but yes, when the breakup happens.

Noah Michelson (61:01)

I think the last question is if you're having second thoughts about having broken up with someone or you're thinking about, I want to get back together with them, what should we be thinking about? I mean, that happened with you, right?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (61:12)

I mean, I want to ask you to think about backsliding. I went through a terrible breakup with my current husband. We did a lot of growing, got back together, behaved differently, did therapy, you know, and with my whole husband.

Noah Michelson (61:29)

Oh, yeah. Look at you now.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (61:30)

And I really. Like, I talked about Sufism before. Like, I feel me and him have.

Shadeen Francis (61:35)

Met in another life.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (61:36)

Life.

Shadeen Francis (61:36)

Yeah.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (61:36)

And that's. That's my dude. Like, and I, you know, we broke up because we weren't being right to each other. Like, what do you think about backsliding at any point?

Shadeen Francis (61:48)

Some of the ways that I think about it, and everyone narrates their story in a way that is honest to them. But some here are the things that I heard right. We ended things right. Because we weren't being the kind of people to each other that we wanted to be or that either of us deserved to be receive. We had time apart. We did a lot of growing. Right. We reconnected and built something different. And here we are putting that into practice in an ongoing way. I think that's lovely. That's not what all of us are going to have. That's not what all of us want.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (62:24)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (62:25)

When I think about something like backsliding or even the idea of going back, I mean, the relationship is that version of the relationship is done. Or I'll say that time is done. That time is done. So if we're trying to reconnect with an old thing, we can't time travel in that way. So all we have is what we're doing now. And if we haven't taken the time to work on the things that weren't working and our individual contributions to that. Yeah. I always pose the question to folks around, what do you anticipate to be different moving forward? People tend to have an answer for that. And I say, what have you done already that's going to make that possible? What have they done? Right. And what are you committed to moving forward that you weren't already committed to before?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (63:22)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (63:24)

Being able to reflect honestly can let us know whether or not I am reacting to. I miss you.

Noah Michelson (63:32)

Right.

Shadeen Francis (63:32)

And so I want to re. Experience the good parts. Yeah. Because there are almost always good parts or else we wouldn't have been there.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (63:40)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (63:40)

Right. I want to honor that. You know, we are not all, you know, just here for the suffering.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (63:45)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (63:46)

That. That relationships are layered and nuanced and complicated. And so even as you end, there were still things worth holding on to or else you would have left before. So sometimes we just want some of that old stuff back versus. Oh, there is something here that we are both better equipped to work on now.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (64:09)

The tools. Yeah. I love therapy.

Shadeen Francis (64:14)

It sounds like therapy loves you back. It sounds like you. Because I participate in it.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (64:18)

I love it so much. It saved me.

Shadeen Francis (64:20)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (64:21)

I love this episode. Thank you for being here. This was so beautiful.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (64:24)

I teared up many times.

Noah Michelson (64:26)

Yeah.

Shadeen Francis (64:27)

Thank you. I mean, the therapy works.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (64:29)

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Shadeen Francis (65:03)

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Noah Michelson (65:57)

Okay, it's time for better. And five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (66:02)

Number one, aim for a good goodbye that is clear and kind. Taking the high road is a gift to yourself.

Noah Michelson (66:08)

It absolutely is. Number two, if you're the one doing the breaking up, consider doing it at your soon to be ex's place because they're going to be more comfortable in the aftermath.

Shadeen Francis (66:17)

Yeah, agree.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (66:19)

Number three, Surprise, surprise. Ghosting is never the move.

Noah Michelson (66:23)

It's really not. Even though it feels better in the moment. Yeah, don't do it. Number four, There isn't a set timeline, but Shadeen likes the idea of giving yourself some time to grieve right after it happened and then working on living your best life. Life.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (66:37)

That's right. And number five, consider smashing that block button. Because seeing your ex live their best life online can be kind of hurtful.

Noah Michelson (66:47)

Sometimes you don't want to do it.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (66:49)

Okay, Noah, that was an emotional talk and I. And I really appreciated it. Do you feel like you will be doing breakups better?

Noah Michelson (66:59)

So I hope I don't break up again, right?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (67:00)

No. No.

Noah Michelson (67:01)

Especially if Benji's listening to this. Like, I don't have any plans. You're. You're safe for now. Keep cleaning up the dishes.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (67:07)

I ride with Benji.

Noah Michelson (67:08)

Yeah, but I just love this episode because I think so much of what we learned was like, you just want to do right by people and by yourself. And the sloppier you are, sort of like the less you're taking other people's feelings into consideration, the harder it's going to be. Not just for them, but for you too. I love that whole talk about how, like, the way that you show up up is like the way that you are in the world.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (67:33)

Yeah.

Noah Michelson (67:34)

And so if you're ghosting people or if you're being mean to people or if you're doing all these other things, it's going to bleed into your life in other places, your friends, your family, work. So, like, this is a great sort of like, discrete point in your life where if you can do this well, hopefully that will transfer to other, other places as well. What about you? What did you learn?

Raj Panjabi Johnson (67:51)

I mean, listen, same as you. I just took away a lot of life skills and conflict resolution skills. It also made me feel seen and kind of called out for behaviors I've participated in in the past. And isn't it all about kind of like growing and wanting to be, like she said, the person you want to be?

Noah Michelson (68:08)

Yep.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (68:09)

I, I felt like I got to be honest in my conversation.

Noah Michelson (68:13)

Yeah. You take the good parts of the old Raj and bring them forward and you leave the old parts in the past and like, hopefully there's some transforming that happens. That's the most we can ask for. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're gonna be right here to help you do them better.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (68:30)

I'll never break up with you guys. Am I Doing it Wrong Is a co production between HuffPost and Acast.

Noah Michelson (68:37)

Our producers are Eve Bishop, Carmen Borca Carrillo and Malia Agadello.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (68:41)

Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter.

Noah Michelson (68:45)

Special thanks to HuffPost's head of audience, Abby Williams.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (68:48)

Head of video Will Took, as well.

Noah Michelson (68:50)

As Ken, Kate Palmer, Marta Rodriguez and Terry d'. Angelo.

Raj Panjabi Johnson (68:53)

And we're your hosts, Raj Punjabi Johnson and Noah Michelson.

Shadeen Francis (69:04)

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Raj Panjabi Johnson (70:35)

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