B (1:51)

I'm doing great, except for there's new furniture in here. My. My feet don't touch the ground, so please forgive me if I look 12 from the bottom.

D (1:58)

And luckily, a lot of people are listening to this, so they can't even see your little Daisy.

B (2:02)

Well, if you're listening to it, get on YouTube and watch us.

D (2:04)

Okay, well, that's a great advice.

B (2:06)

Please. Love you. Okay.

D (2:07)

Anyway, I have a question for you, if you can believe it or not. Are you doing gratitude wrong?

B (2:14)

As heavy as that is, I'm proud to say I think this is one that I might actually be doing. Well, I'm not gonna say right. Okay. I. I tend to vocalize my gratitude for my friends and family. And sometimes with strangers who did something kind, I do a thing where I look them in the eyes and I say, I appreciate you. And I find that there's a human connection that happens that I love. And I'm being really authentic about it. So I might get a little gold star. Let's find out, though. What about you?

D (2:41)

I think I'm pretty good at it, too. I have this thing, though, and I want to bring this up with our expert, because I'm wondering about it. I sometimes get guilt and gratitude. Like, they come as a package deal for me.

B (2:52)

I get it.

D (2:53)

Like, if I'm trying to express gratitude, I feel guilty for the things that I have rather than just feeling grateful for them.

B (2:58)

Yeah.

D (2:59)

So I kind of want to untangle that.

B (3:01)

That feels very relatable. I'm sure that resonates with many of us.

D (3:04)

Yeah.

B (3:05)

Lucky for us, we have with us today Dr. Laurie Santos, a professor at Yale, where she teaches Psychology and the Good Life, the most popular class in Yale's history. And she's the host of the Happiness Lab podcast.

D (3:17)

Let's get our grateful on.

B (3:20)

Lori, thank you so much for being here. We're so excited to have you.

C (3:24)

Thanks so much for having me on the show.

B (3:26)

All right, let's start at the very beginning as we like to. Can you describe in a neat little package what gratitude is, essentially?

C (3:34)

Yeah. So gratitude is this feeling like we are thankful and appreciative of the types of things that we have in the world. And it's what researchers tend to call a pro social emotion. Right. It's an emotion that's about kind of getting enough for yourself. And studies wind up finding that when we experience gratitude, we want to become more pro social. We want to give back, whether that's give back to our future selves or give back to another individual. And so it's an emotion that makes us feel something. It makes us feel good. We experience thankfulness, but it's also an emotion that makes us want to do stuff, do nice stuff for other people and our future selves.

D (4:11)

That's so interesting. We did an episode also on Wonder at one point, and we had Dacher Keltner on. And I think people don't often think of these kind of things as emotions. You know, we think of being happy or sad. But an active gratitude is also an interesting concept. What have you seen in the research in terms of what gratitude can do for us Physically?

C (4:34)

Yeah, I mean, physically it has a whole host of effects. Right. If you want to sleep a little bit better, experiencing a bit of gratitude can be incredibly helpful. The studies show you sleep better, kind of fall asleep better, stay asleep longer. It also has interesting physical effects. So there's some hints that experiencing where gratitude can do things like reduce inflammation. So Many folks in biology these days are talking about the problems of inflammaging, right? The fact that inflammation is causing us to age much more quickly. So just getting a little bit of gratitude in can actually prevent that. And so it seems like it has a host of physical benefits. And of course, those come on top of all the psychological benefits. You're more satisfied with life. You experience more positive emotion, you experience more connection. So it's kind of just like a magic pill for feeling better physically and mentally.

D (5:19)

I'm wondering, like, do we know why that is true? I think it's hard for us a lot of times to understand how me feeling grateful for my friendship with Raj would mean that I could sleep better. Can you walk us through that?

C (5:31)

Yeah. I mean, the honest thing is I don't know if we exactly know the perfect mechanism for it, but there's so many things that when we're feeling better, we wind up, like, feeling better mentally. We wind up feeling better physically as well. You know, take something simple like social connection. There's a super long running study called the Harvard Study of Adult Development that followed people, like, from way back when they were in their teens, way back when they were in college up till now. And since the study's been running so long, this is like following people up through their 80s. And what they find is that simple things like having more social connection can have huge effects on, for example, whether or not you get heart disease, whether or not you get diabetes, whether or not you live like, well into old age. Just something simple like feeling less lonely can have all these positive physical effects. And I like to think of gratitude the same way. It's this emotion that winds up having this psychological effect on us. We feel better, but it also causes us to do different things. In fact, gratitude is associated with getting more social connection, reaching out and helping others, and actually doing nicer kind acts for others. And just those things alone can wind up reducing stress, reducing inflammation and so on. And so I think there's probably not like one mechanism where you experience gratitude and like, boom, you know, the inflammation in your cells and stuff goes down. But it's a whole host of things that you can kind of put a positive spin on something. And that positive spin has all kinds of tiny positive mental effects and all kinds of tiny positive physical effects.

B (6:55)

I just have a follow up to, like, longevity and gratitude. So from what I understand, it can help you live longer, but also live more active, right, For a longer amount of time because of, like, maybe the community you're fostering. Through this gratitude.

C (7:11)

Yeah. I think the key there is to remember that because gratitude is this pro social emotion, it winds up changing our social interactions. And so there's some lovely studies by David Deseno and his colleagues that find that when we experience more gratitude, we wanna do nicer stuff for other. And of course, when you're engaging in kind acts, that does a whole host of things, it makes you feel better. You're doing kind acts so you make more of a connection with other individuals that can increase your sense of belonging. Again, all those things can have a cascading effect on how we feel. It winds up making us feel better, and it winds up making our physical bodies feel better too.

D (7:45)

That's so cool.

B (7:46)

I love it.

D (7:47)

I mean, the connection between our brain and our bodies.

B (7:49)

Yeah.

C (7:50)

I mean, we forget head attached to body, like mix kind of says, what do you think about it?

D (7:55)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think this can be a topic that feels maybe a little squishy for people or a little touchy feely. It's hard to get your arms around it. Exactly. So I guess maybe we can start with the idea of showing gratitude for other people and what that might look like.

C (8:15)

Yeah, well, I think it can look like a couple different things. Right. First, I think you need to take time to experience it, and that means really taking time to experience it. Some of the studies really find that if you scribble down a few things that you're grateful for every day, that can start boosting your life satisfaction. So I think even if you experience like, oh, I'm grateful for my spouse, take a moment to literally write it down in a gratitude list or in a gratitude journal. That's really helpful. But the studies also show that a more powerful way to experience gratitude for other people is to express that gratitude to other people. Why? It's like a triple threat in terms of the happiness research. When you express gratitude to other people, you have to one, make a social connection because you're talking to other people. And we know that's really good for happiness. Expressing gratitude to other people is kind of nice. People appreciate it when you thank them that you express gratitude to them. So you're doing this very specific kind act. And we know from lots of studies that that makes us feel good. And third, when you're expressing the gratitude to someone, you're telling people, thank you so much. Here's the reasons why I appreciate you here. That's why this was so helpful for me. That can enhance the feeling of the gratitude because now you're attending to it. Now you're noticing it. And studies by folks like Marty Seligman and colleagues find that the act of doing this, he does this in the context of what he calls a gratitude. So you literally make a time when you write a letter to thank someone, you show up and read it to them. He finds that that can significantly boost your well being for as long as somewhere between one to three months. So it has this long standing boost in your well being, I think in part because it's doing all three of these things at once. Social connection, doing something kind and really expressing the gratitude to someone.

D (9:53)

That's so interesting. I do wonder too if there has to be sort of that. That's two part where if I express my gratitude to you, in order for me to feel good, do I need you to sort of acknowledge it or just the fact of me expressing it is that doing something. Does the partnership have to happen?

C (10:13)

Yeah, I mean, I think it helps when you get that social connection back and see someone's reaction. And that's in part because one of the reasons we don't express gratitude enough is that we forget the positive consequences it has. You know, think of a good friend or your spouse. We kind of get the sense, well, they know I appreciate them. But when you really tell them, they don't realize exactly the particulars of why you appreciate them or how much what they did matter to you when you say it. They like experience like this feels amazing for them when they hear it. And because our calibration is off, that can be a little shocking to us. We give a genuine thank you to our spouse and they start crying. You're like, oh my God, I didn't know you'd appreciate it that much. Now you're really feeling it in a different way. So there is something about the person hearing it and reacting to it and so on. But the studies also show that you can get a lot of the same benefit of gratitude just by feeling it. And I think this is important. You know, sometimes there's situations that have passed, you know, someone that we should have thanked and put the time in to thank before that, you know, they're gone, or we can't express it to them as easily. And so I think that just finding ways to express gratitude whenever you can, even if it's not directly to the person, can have these huge benefits.

D (11:25)

I love that.

B (11:25)

You know, I have to say that I have a gratitude role model. And it's my dad. He has such an amazing attitude. I was just telling my therapist the other day that, like I need to stop the bullshit and the petty nonsense and, like, I want to learn to be a little more like my dad. Like, he expresses gratitude so frequently, so vibrantly, and people love to say, like, the little things. The little things. He expresses gratitude for the big things. Like, it was snowing the other day, like, really bad. And I said to my partner, isn't it nice that we have a house to come home to? It is unbelievably cold outside. Like, I'm warm. That's crazy. I get that from my dad. Like, he thinks about the big picture and, like, a lot of times what he can do to help people. But also, like, hold on. I am not taking this thing for granted. Like, me being warm right now, and I think, like, I'm trying to learn a lot from it because it makes me feel so good. Even secondhand kindness. When you, like, witness someone being, like, grateful to someone else, isn't it, like, nice to just witness that?

D (12:26)

Yeah.

C (12:27)

Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing we forget is how much of our society sets us up to witness the opposite of that. You know, just think about the last time you went on social media. Did you see everybody expressing gratitude? No, you. You saw the opposite. People. Things that you didn't even know you should complain about or hassles you didn't even realize were happening in life become, like, really readily apparent to you. And so we need to remember that we have that power. We can all be like your dad and have the gift of pointing things out that we can express around other people so that they notice the things that are grateful, too. It seems like another thing your dad is really good at is using counterfactuals to experience gratitude. Right. You know, he's like, well, what if I didn't have this house? Oh, my God, that would be terrible. I would be so cold right now. And that gets back to a technique that the ancients talked about. These were the ancient stoics who talked a lot about the phenomena of negative visualization, where you visualize the opposite of some good thing that you have in life. It's kind of like, if you remember that movie It's a Wonderful Life, where it's like, you know, you lost your life and you weren't there anymore. It's like, oh, my God, I appreciate it so much more. And so that can be a really great technique for gratitude. It seems morbid, but the stoics thought that when you wake up every morning, you should think, today I will lose my spouse and my job and my health and I will get exiled from society. And you don't sit there and incubate on that forever and ruminate about it. But just a moment to realize these things are fragile and precious and they're not guaranteed. You start to appreciate them a lot more.

B (13:50)

That's true. And I do feel it is kind of morbid, but I do feel it helps people be more compassionate to each other. You know what I'm saying? People are out here on social media being, like, just flaunting stuff, and I'm like, this must feel really shitty if this person doesn't have a partner, doesn't have a huge house, doesn't have a Bugatti. I don't have a Bugatti. But, yeah, that's a really fascinating. I didn't realize that, you know, kind of mechanism was happening.

D (14:14)

Yeah. Something else. I don't know if I've talked about this on the show yet. Maybe this is me coming out of the broom closet. I've been practicing witchcraft for the last four years, and every morning I do a ritual of some sort, and I've sort of incorporated a gratitude practice in that ritual.

B (14:28)

What does that look like?

D (14:30)

So it's like I talk to my gods and my goddesses and my ancestors, but then I also think about the things that I'm grateful for. And I would imagine, Laurie, that. But for me, at least, having that daily thing, it's like the more the repetition, the more you do it, the more you practice it, whether it's a certain time of day you do it or just doing it more in your life, the easier it is to have gratitude be part of it. Yeah.

C (14:53)

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, partly. It's just any rituals can really shape our behavior, right? When we do something over and over again, it becomes easier to do it. And I think with gratitude, this is particularly powerful because when we're trying to experience gratitude, we're often fighting against a bias that so many of us have, which is what researchers call the negativity bias. Our minds naturally go to all the hassles and all the negative stuff. We just notice that more. We often blame social media algorithms for feeding us negative stuff, and they do. But we also have brains that, like, have that same algorithm of, like, all

B (15:24)

the bad stuff out there.

C (15:26)

But what a daily gratitude practice does, or any ritual where you're sort of noticing what you're thankful for is it's fighting against that bias. You're gradually training your brain to pay attention. Attention to other things. And I think that that can be Incredibly powerful, even if it's something that's really just sort of gratitude adjacent. Another critique I often hear from my students about gratitude is like, it can feel hard to feel grateful when the world is feeling really heavy. Right. When there's just, like, terrible stuff happening in the world. It's like, how dare I be grateful for this coffee when, you know, people are dying, there's war, the climate's falling apart, you know, whatever thing is going

B (16:02)

on in the world, I experience this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

C (16:05)

And so a lighter version of this is a phenomena that I like to call a delight practice. It actually comes from the poet Ross Gay, who wrote this book called the Book of Delights, where every day for a year, he tried to find a new delight. And, like, grateful can feel heavy. Like, oh, my God, I have this privilege or this benefit that maybe I should have gotten. But delight is like. Is easy. It's just a joyful, fun thing in the world. It's like somebody's rocking out in their car to a cool song, or like, look at that bird or that flower with that particular color. It's just a moment of little joy that you notice. And so I sometimes tell my students who are just struggling with gratitude, like, don't go for gratitude if that feels heavy. Just go for delights. You're just training your brain to notice. Not the bad stuff, to notice the good stuff. And that can kind of get you on the path to noticing the bigger good stuff.

D (16:54)

I love that.

B (16:55)

That is so noticing the good stuff is everything.

D (16:57)

Yeah. It's so practical. Also, I mean, I would imagine this is the same when we had the episode about wonder, we learned that they did a study where people were taking wonder walks. And so there was a control group, and they would just take a walk. And then the people on the. On the wonder walk would notice one thing. Probably a delight, like you said, or something that brought them wonder, and their inflammation went down, their pain went down. These were all people over 75.

C (17:21)

Yeah. And I think delights work, like, almost exactly the same way. Like, you're kind of training. Another great thing about a delight practice is to do it with other people. So now I've developed text threads with friends where we, like, just share, you know, stupid delights. Like, every morning, like, I just saw this ridiculous, you know, like a dad with a baby who was, like, waiting at the crosswalk, and he was just staring at this baby with such a look of pride and joy. What a delight. I saw that. My friend didn't see that, but now she's thinking like, oh, what a delight, and picturing it and feeling good herself. So sharing these moments of delights or even sharing the things you're grateful for when others can be grateful for it too. That's also a great practice to kind of boost the cascade of gratitude around us.

D (18:02)

I love that. When I dated this guy maybe 10 years ago and he, I think we were long distance or for a period and we would get on the phone at night and we would do what he called three and three. It was the three best things of the day and then the three things that were hard for us. Not necessarily like just complaining, but literally just sort of like unloading with someone that you trusted. And it was like we were doing a delight practice then and I didn't even realize it. And I kind of loved that too. And I looked forward to it. And during the day I would notice things that I wanted. I wanted to find my three to tell him about later that day.

C (18:34)

Yeah, that's the thing you probably start to notice is, like, when you find a go, you're like, oh, that's a good one. Like, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna hold that to tell him later. And that again means you're shaping your attention, right? You're shaping what your brain is paying attention to. And that can make all the difference.

A (18:52)

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E (19:51)

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B (21:04)

I mean, I think our audience knows this if they've listened to some other episodes, but mine is always dogs or cats. Like, I will come home and be like, I saw the fattest English bulldog. Like, and now if I'm in a mood, I am definitely trained to look for a fat English bulldog or corgi, like, kind of looking for the delights, looking for things to be grateful for.

D (21:27)

Absolutely.

B (21:28)

Can you tell us a little bit more about how to express gratitude for other people? I love the idea of vocalizing it. Tell us a little bit about gratitude letters. What is that? Can we do something like that without coming across as, like, too sweet and vulnerable?

C (21:42)

Yeah. Well, this is the mistake we all make. We think, like, gratitude letters are gonna be awkward. When in my class, when I told students about that study with gratitude letters where I mentioned that, you know, people can boost their happiness for over a month when I gave the prompt, and the prompt is something like, write a letter to someone you've never thanked who you really have been meaning to thank, to be as genuine and honest as possible. Then not just write it, but go to their house and read this to them. You know, the students in my class would scream out things like emo or awkward. Like, it's like, it feels like that's too much. But that's again, our mind lying to us. If you, if you put yourself in the position of someone who's receiving a gratitude letter, it feels amazing, right? And we know this. Even if you haven't experienced, like a full gratitude letter, even if you just got like a little thank you card from someone at some point, you might even still have that somewhere. Like, you just stick it in a drawer because, like, it meant that much to you receiving it that you Kept it for years and years. So the people who get this feel amazing. But I think what we forget is that we feel amazing too. We forget the feeling that we're going to get from expressing it. So, yeah, so write it down. You know, pick someone that you just want to thank. I think a key is that when we are in the expressing mode, we go too much into paying attention to our performance and not the emotion of how our performance is going to sound. So I promise you, if you sit down to write your gratitude letter, instantly your brain will start being a jerk to you. Like, oh, am I spelling it right? Maybe I'm not saying it right. Is the person going to understand what I mean? Like, we're critiquing ourselves in our head. But if you put yourself in the perspective of a person receiving a thank you letter, first of all, you're usually surprised. You're like, oh, my God, what is this thing? I didn't expect to be thanked. You're not analyzing somebody's spelling or wording choice. What you're doing is you're just feeling the love that's they gave you. And so as you're writing these things, really get out of the head of, like, this is some, like, special essay that you're writing, you know, for like high school. Like, just kind of put words to paper and they will be received in a warm way that you intended.

D (23:31)

I love that. I love a little bit of homework for the listeners. We could all do this literally today or intend to do it. You know, do you think this. It will ring as true or be as powerful if we use a text or social media, I wonder. It seems like social media, we talk about this on the show, or technology is like our best friend and our worst enemy because it connects us and it actually disconnects us at the same time. So where does that fall in here?

C (23:58)

Yeah, I mean, I think what we know from the literature on social connection is that whenever you're connecting in real time, that's better. You know, we think about connecting in real life, but in real time is what. What works for us in terms of our psychological nutrition. Like you and I are, you know, you're both in the same room together. In real life, we are talking in real time across the technology, but we can hear what each other's saying. I can see your emotional expressions. We can hear these subtle changes in our voice. Like, it's almost as good as being in the same room. What doesn't work as well is when it's not in real time. So Say texting or a social media feed, if possible. Try to do it over the phone, you know, or over like, you know, like FaceTime or Zoom or, you know, whatever chat service you prefer. Like to do it, to kind of do it in real time. That's better. But what I would say to follow that up is just get it down. If all you've got time for is a quick text to say, you know, I'm just thinking of you and just like, how much I appreciate you. That's better than nothing, you know. So I think really it's the act of experiencing it and sharing it. Do it the best you can. But, you know, if you have some flexibility in real time is better.

D (25:04)

Doesn't have to be all or nothing. Also, I love getting mail in the mail and I don't feel like we don't really do that anymore. Everything I get is a bill or junk bottle.

B (25:13)

I just got a handwritten thank you note from one of my friends.

D (25:16)

That's incredible.

B (25:16)

And it was like life changing. Handwriting is very powerful. I'm gonna write you a thank you note. I think it's so lovely. It's so romantic. Like, why not? Do you know what I'm saying?

D (25:29)

I think it's great. Or send someone. You know what I'll do sometimes too is I'll send someone, like, I'll just venmo them $10 and say, get a coffee today. You know, I love you like that kind of thing too. Yeah, there's so many different ways. But I love what you're saying, that it doesn't have to be perfect. Sometimes perfect, we just don't. We will never do it because we get so in our heads about it.

B (25:49)

Here's the thing though, and this is what Lori just like, absolutely hit the nail on the head. When you express yourself to someone, they feel seen, right? And like, we're all trying to. We're walking around in the world literally just trying to feel seen. I try so hard sometimes, like being good at the podcast, being a good editor, like, et cetera, et cetera. When someone is like, you did good or you made me feel good or whatever, and I'm like, thank you. Because I was trying, you know, and to feel seen like that, that's rare. I don't think that gets to happen for everyone. Right.

C (26:20)

Like, and it can just be so quick and easy, right? Oh my gosh, you did a great job. Both of you, by the way, have prepared so well for this interview with me. And it's just really enjoyable. Right? Just like that Little moments like. Like, you know, and so I think this is a thing to remember is that completely for free. We can make someone feel seen. We can make them have a sense of belonging. We can change their mood and their day. We just have to do that. And that's true with gratitude, but it's true with other moments of social connection, too. The researcher, Nick Epley, has a really. He's at the University of Chicago, has this really important paper on what he calls under sociality, that our bias is always to be a little bit less social than we should for our happiness and other people's happiness. Happiness. So express that gratitude. Give that compliment. Ask someone for help. Right. Give them the opportunity to do something nice for you. All these little moments of social connection, we think like, oh, it's going to be awkward or it's going to inconvenience somebody or it's not the right time, or I don't have the right words. No, just do it, and then you'll. You'll do it and you'll experience the benefits of it.

D (27:19)

That is so true, because I've almost never regretted doing something like that.

C (27:24)

Oh, say us.

D (27:25)

I've regretted not saying something or not doing something, but it always. Even if it is a little tiny bit awkward, that's fine.

B (27:32)

Yeah, we need to learn to live with that.

D (27:33)

It's all kind of awkward. Yeah. We need to have more discomfort in our lives and be able to sort of get through that if we want to build a gratitude practice for ourselves. Like, we don't obviously have to become witches and do a ritual every morning like I do. What are some of your tips for that? If we. If not for other people, but our

B (27:48)

own gratitude practice and just like, very. If you're a beginner and if you're just kind of like, I want some of these benefits and I haven't really practiced it.

C (27:55)

Yeah. Yeah. How about, you know, get a little, you know, thing in your phone, whether it's the notes app or whatever, or actual picture piece of paper. One thing every day that went well, you know, one of those. The best of the day. One thing that you're grateful for, one delight. Just one thing. Your brain will start to get in the habit of trying to notice it because you want to write that down. If that starts to feel good, you know, increase it a little bit and you get extra credit if it's not the same thing every day. Right. Because you really want to be training your mind to notice good things. You know, in my gratitude journal, I could have every day My husband, because he's amazing. My husband. My husband. But, you know, try to switch it up a bit or even if it's your husband, every day a new thing, you know, like, you know, I love that my husband, you know, just spontaneously empty the dishwasher. I love that he's so funny. I love his little dimple, whatever it is, you know, kind of mix it up a little bit, because that trains your brain to notice new things. But don't. Don't start by you know, writing a whole essay about this stuff. Just one thing that you notice that's good, and that can start the process off.

D (28:50)

I love that during the pandemic, I lived alone, and I, I was pretty lonely. And I would go on these long walks around Brooklyn, and I would see new neighborhoods, and I would tweet at that time when I was still on X before it turned into a nightmare. But I put on social media the thing that I had seen, and I have a background in poetry, so it turned into a poem, whatever. But so many people responded to even that. And so I feel like sharing your delights, too, is also a great thing. And even with strangers, sometimes when you notice something beautiful in the world or something unusual or special, I think other people respond to that. And you'd be surprised at how many people want to share that with you.

C (29:28)

Totally. I mean, just earlier today, I was kind of walking down the street and walked by this house, very snowy and cold here at the time that we're talking, and there was, like, this huge icicle. And I was like, oh, my God, look at this, like, miracle, enormous icicle. And someone was walking down the street, and I was kind of like, yo, check out this. And it was, like, tiny moment with a total stranger. Like, oh, my God. So ridiculous, right? But, you know, those moments of connection matter. I think when we think about social connection and happiness and loneliness, we think we have to have, like, you know, three hours with our best friend. But these little tiny moments of social connections, these weak ties, the studies show that those matter for our happiness, too. So build those in, you know, with a quick moment of delight that's shared with a stranger.

D (30:10)

That is so true. Like strangers on the subway and something funny happens and you catch the eyes of someone else. Yes. And you both, you know, know that you know, or you both had seen it. You cannot replicate that feeling. That feeling is, like, at this point, for me, probably better than sex. Like, I love that feeling.

B (30:30)

I, I, I mean, New York City is the best.

D (30:33)

Yeah.

B (30:33)

Cause so much nonsense happens. It's Almost every day that I lock eyes with a stranger and we kind of like giggle at something. I love it because, like, what on earth? It has to be Candid Camera. Like, it's wild.

D (30:45)

Completely.

B (30:46)

That being said, how do you feel about gratitude apps? I think it's really funny. Like, whatever software developer was like, let me try and monetize this, it's gonna help someone. What do you think of gratitude apps?

C (30:57)

I think if it works for you, it works for you. Really what you want to do is notice it. Right. It helps to write it down because that just kind of gives you a practice to notice it. But, you know, if you want to do it on paper, great. If you have a cool app, great. I used to have this fun app that had this, like, cute little like Buddha that you'd write things in. And it made me happy to see that kind of thing. Great. Really what you want to do is, is do it with so many of the happiness practices, gratitude included. It's kind of just like exercise, like, should I go to the gym, Should I do Pilates at my house, should I do the peloton? It's like, whatever it's gonna do to get you to do it, that's what you gotta do. So if it's a gratitude app, go for it.

B (31:33)

We don't judge here.

D (31:34)

No. We talked a little bit about. I loved you saying this idea that things are really bleak right now. Especially we're recording this in the first week of February. Minnesota is still a mess. Other places are a mess. And I love this idea of a delight if we can't find gratitude or we're trying to get on the road towards gratitude. Something that I grapple with is sort of the connection between gratitude and guilt. And sometimes I feel guilty for the things that I have. If I am not, you know, if my life is going well, when I look around and all these things are going badly, it's hard for me to have gratitude or I feel guilty about it totally. What are your thoughts about that connection between guilt and gratitude?

C (32:17)

Yeah, I mean, I think you're not alone in that for sure. I mean, I think one of the things that it's worth paying attention to is because gratitude is this pro social emotion, you know, a little bit like wonder, which you talked about in your past episodes. Like, it comes with a little bit of weight. Like it's a bittersweet emotion. Right. Like I have this thing that, you know, I didn't necessarily deserve to have or I didn't necessarily have to have. It didn't have to be that way. Like, I feel really lucky, and that can turn into guilt, but it can also turn into a pro social action. In other words, you want to give back, right? And that's, I think, where gratitude works best, right? Like, I am so lucky, I have the bandwidth to be nice to another person, to be nice to my future self. There's lots of studies, for example, showing that people who are more grateful, they wind up eating healthier, they wind up getting to the gym more often, they wind up saving more for retirement. They're like, nicer to their future self because, like, like, I can take a hit right now, I'm doing all right right now, and I'll kind of give it back to my future self. So if you can kind of move from the guilt to the, you know, I'm gonna give back, right? Cause I feel this kind of. I have enough that can be really huge. Another thing I often like to remind my own students who. Who again, say the same thing that, like, you know, especially when the world feels so terrible, it's hard to be grateful. One thing we know is that gratitude just boosts our positive mood. And one of the things we know about positive mood is that it makes it easier to do good things in the world. There's this thing called the feel good, do good effect, that when you yourself are feeling good, it makes it easier to do nice stuff for other people, and that's nice stuff for individual other people. But there's studies showing that that's nice stuff for the world too.

B (33:50)

That's right.

C (33:50)

Researcher Konstantin Kushlev at Georgetown analyzes, like, who's going out there and doing good stuff for the world, whether that's for a social justice protest or kind of taking climate change action, who's not just sitting around worried about it on social media, but who's taking action. And he finds that it tends to be the people not who are most anxious about these issues, but the ones who just experience generally the most positive mood. And so I say, if the gratitude's gonna make you feel good, then that's what we need in the face of all these bad problems in the world. Like, feeling grateful is gonna give you the emotional bandwidth to step up and fix the stuff that feels yucky too.

D (34:27)

I love that.

B (34:28)

I've been seeing a lot of that, especially, you know, in the protests and the wonderful people who are, you know, trying to defend the rights of all of us. I have to say that I've experienced that thing where you, like, feel really good and want to do Better. I'm really thankful for my cats. I'm one of those, like, crazy cat people that I, like, look at my kitten and I kind of start crying because I think about, what if I never met him? Like, I love him so much, I want to eat him and poop him out. Like, it's terrifying. So I thought, like, I feel so good and so grateful. Some people can't have pets. I should volunteer at the shelter where I got him. I made it two hours. It was really sad over there. There's a lot. There's a lot of, like, animals who need things. And I, like, cried a lot and stuff, so I didn't do well at that. I'm gonna try to find some other way I can help in life, but I am. I love that I experienced the thing that you're talking about where I, like, felt so happy and grateful that I wanted to help. I hope I can do it again.

D (35:25)

Well, you can. And you can divert that energy somewhere else, though, too, I think. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, maybe that didn't work for you, but it doesn't mean that you don't do anything at this point.

B (35:33)

You're right. You're right. And I felt discouraged. But this science of it made me feel capable and empowered that I will find a way to help, to channel it appropriately. Yes, channel it appropriately.

D (35:45)

The other thing I'm gonna say, maybe this is controversial or

B (35:50)

bad.

D (35:51)

I guess at this point, I don't know that I think guilt is always the worst thing. I think sometimes guilt can be, you know, I don't want people to go around feeling guilty about everything in their lives, but guilt can be motivating as well.

B (36:04)

And so if you can use a little more shame. Noah? Yeah.

D (36:06)

Like, if you. If you can have them, like, braided, braid the guilt and the gratitude together and let them sort of rein. Like. I don't know. I guess I'm just thinking about that now. What do you think about that?

C (36:17)

Yeah, well, I think, you know, this just fits with how researchers often think about negative emotions. I think we can get into this, like, toxic positivity spiral where it's, like, all good vibes all the time, you know, Evolutionarily, we have negative emotions for a reason. They're often a cue to actions, you know? So if you're feeling lonely, that's a cue that, like, oh, my gosh, I gotta get some social connection. If you're feeling angry, it means something's unfair, something's not right. You gotta take some action to fix it. If you're feeling overwhelmed. You have too much on your plate. You gotta take something off your plate. And I think if you're feeling guilty, that's a signal that maybe you do need to give back, that you're deserving and you've gotten something that, you know deserves to be given back to the community. So, you know, I'm not like, a fan of, like, you know, feel guilty and incubate in it all the time because I also think, you know, we're much more drill sergeants with ourselves and with other people. There's things that we feel guilty for that we would never expect a friend to feel guilty for. So watch that. But if you can channel it into positive action, all the better.

D (37:13)

Yeah, I like that.

B (37:15)

All right, so, you know, we've talked a lot about a lot of techniques, but what's your number one tip, piece of advice for someone that wants to, to feel the benefits of gratitude?

C (37:26)

I guess my number one tip would just be try it. Like, just keep your mind open to, like, a thing that you feel grateful for. Start small, notice those things and you'll notice the benefits. You'll see some change.

B (37:38)

And I know you mentioned this briefly before, but, like, when you're noticing things, are you inviting people to linger? To, like, really explore why they're feeling good about it and just settle on it for a moment? Because I know I linger on really negative stuff. I'll sit with it for like, five minutes.

C (37:54)

Yeah, can we do that? Linger on the good stuff is a great technique. And I think you can just do it by, like, asking yourself questions. Right. You know, like in that gratitude exercise of, you know, seeing the dad with a little kid who's just staring at him.

B (38:07)

Yes.

C (38:07)

Like, just noticing, like, oh, there's like a sparkle in his eye and he just touched his hair. And, you know, you kind of just force yourself to pay attention. One of the biggest gifts, gifts we have is just what we attend to. You know, we often put our attention, you know, the attention economy talks about this on just terrible, terrible stuff all the time. So training your brain to go dig a little deeper into the delights can be great. You know, Ross Gay and his, in his book and the Book of Delights did this where he literally wrote an essay about delight every day. So if he saw that event, he'd, you know, write a, you know, thousand, two thousand word essay on that particular thing. I don't know if, I mean, great, if you have time to do that. But just like, like, you know, with your attention, pay a little bit more interest into what's going on. Savor it for just a second and that will feel good.

B (38:49)

I love that.

D (38:50)

What a beautiful way to end this episode. Lori, thank you so much for being here. This was amazing.

C (38:55)

Thank you so much for having me. I am grateful to be on the show.

B (38:58)

Oh, I feel like rainbows and puppies right now. So I, we, we really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks so much.

E (39:07)

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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching your insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your pocket. Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. It's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.combillbank capital1NA member FDIC.

D (40:39)

All right, you guys, it's time for better in five. These are your top five things that we learned in this episode.

B (40:44)

All right, number one, feeling gratitude is good for us. Not just emotionally, but physically too. And sleep better.

D (40:50)

Number two, expressing gratitude is most powerful in person. But any form is better than.

B (40:57)

That's right. Number three, if you want to start a gratitude practice, it can be as simple as noticing one delight every day.

D (41:03)

I love the delight. That's delightful.

B (41:06)

Yes.

D (41:06)

Number four, gratitude can sometimes go hand in hand with guilt. It definitely does. For me. And that's not always a bad thing. If both of those emotions actually make you do something good.

B (41:16)

Yes. And number five, sometimes expressing gratitude might feel awkward, but do it anyway. The benefits far outweigh the risk.

D (41:24)

So, Raj, do you think you earned that gold star?

B (41:28)

You know, I think I got a little gold star because I do practice some of these things and I have a gratitude practice. I think there's several more gold stars for me to earn. I loved learning about kind of the science of it and also that part about doing good because you feel some sort of privilege. I want to figure out a way I can do a little more of that. What about you?

D (41:49)

Yeah, I love this idea of just. Just the delight noticing one thing every day. Especially because we live in a world now where, like, our attention span is zapped.

B (41:57)

Yeah.

D (41:57)

You know, I can't even watch an episode of like the Real Housewives without being on my phone at the same time.

B (42:01)

Me too.

D (42:02)

And that's like 40 minutes, you know, so training ourselves to notice something and spend a little time and linger. Linger.

B (42:09)

I love that part.

D (42:10)

Yeah. Turn it over in our head and look at all the different ways that it works. And I think that'd be great for our gratitude practice, but also just in general, and we need more of that, so I loved that idea.

B (42:21)

Totally agree.

D (42:22)

Anyway, until next time, as long as there are things to get wrong, Raj and I are going to be right here to help you do them better.

B (42:29)

And we're thankful for you guys. Am I doing it Wrong? Is a co production between HuffPost and Acast.

D (42:38)

Our producers are Eve Bishop, Carmen Borca Carrillo and Malia Agadello.

B (42:42)

Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter.

D (42:45)

Special thanks to HuffPost Head of Audience,

B (42:47)

Abby Williams, Head of Video Will Took,

D (42:50)

as well as Kate Palmer, Marta Rodriguez and Terry d'. Angelo.

B (42:53)

And we're your host, Raj Punjabi Johnson and Noah Michaelson.

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