Re-Issue: Living In Awe and Wonder

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Re-Issue: Living In Awe and Wonder"
Am I Doing It Wrong?
Release Date: December 26, 2024
Hosts: Raj Panjabi-Johnson and Noah Michaelson
Guest: Dr. Dacher Keltner, Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and Founder of Awe Studies

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Introduction to Awe and Wonder

In the "Re-Issue: Living In Awe and Wonder" episode of Am I Doing It Wrong?, hosts Raj Panjabi-Johnson and Noah Michaelson delve into the profound emotion of awe and its impact on human well-being. Joined by Dr. Dacher Keltner, a pioneer in awe studies, the conversation explores the definition, benefits, and practical applications of experiencing awe in daily life.

Defining Awe: Beyond Words

Timestamp: 03:49 - 07:10

Dr. Keltner begins by addressing the challenge of defining awe, emphasizing that it's more than just an emotion—it’s a deep, transcendent feeling that connects individuals to something larger than themselves.

Dr. Keltner (05:59): "Awe is the feeling we have when we encounter vast mysteries."

He elaborates that awe often stems from encounters with the vast and mysterious, such as witnessing a towering redwood tree or experiencing profound human kindness. This connection to the vastness transcends ordinary understanding and fosters a sense of being part of something greater.

The Eight Wonders of Life

Timestamp: 12:20 - 15:08

Through extensive research across 26 countries, Dr. Keltner identifies eight wonders of life that evoke awe:

1. Moral Beauty: Witnessing acts of kindness and courage.
2. Collective Movement: Experiences in yoga classes, dances, concerts, and sporting events.
3. Nature: Interactions with the natural world.
4. Music: Listening to impactful and meaningful music.
5. Visual Design: Appreciating artistic and architectural beauty.
6. Spirituality: Engaging in spiritual or religious practices.
7. Big Ideas: Contemplating profound theories or concepts, such as those of Karl Marx.
8. Life and Death: Reflecting on the life cycle and mortality.

Dr. Keltner (13:47): "Those are our eight wonders."

These categories highlight the diverse sources of awe, from personal interactions to natural phenomena, emphasizing that awe is accessible in various facets of life.

Personal Experiences of Awe

Timestamp: 14:25 - 19:48

Ryan Reynolds shares a deeply personal moment of awe: witnessing his father's passing, a transformative experience that profoundly impacted his understanding of life and awe. Dr. Keltner relates this to universal experiences, explaining how such moments propel individuals toward deeper contemplation and understanding.

Ryan Reynolds (14:25): "I watched his spirit leave his body. It is probably the singular most affecting moment of my life."

This personal narrative sets the stage for discussing how awe intersects with significant life events, contributing to emotional resilience and personal growth.

Scientific Exploration of Awe

Timestamp: 21:02 - 26:33

Dr. Keltner outlines his scientific journey into awe, highlighting his innovative research methods. Moving beyond controlled lab environments, his studies explore natural settings like Yosemite and real-world events such as dinosaur exhibits on the Berkeley campus.

Dr. Keltner (23:26): "When you feel awe, it transforms your sense of self. You're part of a collective."

He explains the physiological effects of awe, including the deactivation of the default mode network (reducing self-focus), activation of the vagus nerve (promoting relaxation), and the occurrence of goosebumps (a response linked to communal bonding).

Benefits of Experiencing Awe

Timestamp: 29:08 - 39:26

The discussion moves to the myriad benefits of awe:

• Psychological Benefits: Reduced pain and distress, lower levels of depression and anxiety.
• Physical Benefits: Enhanced vagal tone, decreased inflammation.
• Social Benefits: Increased empathy, reduced narcissism, and strengthened social connections.

Dr. Keltner (39:27): "Awe is scientifically an antidote to self-focus. It connects you to the larger things that matter."

These benefits underscore awe's potential as a tool for improving mental health, fostering social cohesion, and enhancing overall well-being.

Practical Ways to Cultivate Awe

Timestamp: 37:38 - 42:24

Dr. Keltner provides actionable strategies to incorporate awe into daily life:

1. Awe Walks: Taking mindful walks to notice both the small and vast elements of the environment.
2. Mindset Shifts: Slowing down, breathing deeply, and opening the mind to experiences beyond oneself.
3. Engaging with the Eight Wonders: Actively seeking out moments that align with the eight identified sources of awe.

Dr. Keltner (38:35): "Pause and look to the small and the vast. Connect your unique identity to vaster things."

These techniques are designed to make awe an accessible and regular part of everyday living, enhancing personal and collective well-being.

Awe as a Response to Modern Challenges

Timestamp: 39:26 - 44:40

In addressing contemporary issues like social media-induced narcissism, climate crisis, and global conflicts, Dr. Keltner argues that awe can serve as a powerful antidote. By fostering a sense of connection to something larger, awe reduces self-centeredness and promotes pro-social behavior.

Dr. Keltner (39:58): "Awe shuts down the parts of the brain that focus on the self and connects you to larger things."

The conversation emphasizes awe's role in mitigating societal polarization and promoting environmental stewardship, suggesting that cultivating awe can contribute to meaningful social change.

Conclusion and Takeaways

Timestamp: 44:40 - 47:12

The episode concludes with a recap of the key points:

1. Awe is a Distinct Emotion: It involves experiencing vastness and connection beyond oneself.
2. Eight Wonders of Life: Moral beauty and nature are among the most impactful sources.
3. Healing Power of Awe: Psychological and physical benefits include lowering pain and distress.
4. Cultivating Awe: Techniques like awe walks can enhance daily experiences.
5. Awe as an Antidote: It combats narcissism and shame, fostering social connectedness.

Raj Panjabi (44:45): "Awe can be an antidote to narcissism and shame, and it can help us feel more connected to each other."

The hosts reflect on their personal journeys with awe, acknowledging its enriching impact on their lives and encouraging listeners to integrate awe into their routines.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Keltner (05:59): "Awe is the feeling we have when we encounter vast mysteries."
• Ryan Reynolds (14:25): "I watched his spirit leave his body. It is probably the singular most affecting moment of my life."
• Dr. Keltner (23:26): "When you feel awe, it transforms your sense of self. You're part of a collective."
• Dr. Keltner (39:58): "Awe shuts down the parts of the brain that focus on the self and connects you to larger things."

Final Thoughts

"Re-Issue: Living In Awe and Wonder" offers a comprehensive exploration of awe, blending scientific insights with personal narratives to highlight its significance in fostering a fulfilling and connected life. By understanding and cultivating awe, listeners are empowered to enhance their mental, physical, and social well-being, making awe a valuable practice in navigating the complexities of modern life.

Transcript

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Dacher Keltner]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Raj Panjabi]

Of identity content at HuffPost.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And I'm Noah Michaelson, head of HuffPost Personal.

[Raj Panjabi]

Welcome to Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So, Raj, how much wonder or awe would you say you have in your life?

[Raj Panjabi]

I have been described as a neurotic pixie, so I feel like I have a good amount. I'm generally. I like to experience wonder and awe. I recognize it, but it makes me feel really good, and I'm wondering if I could have a little bit more. What about you?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, I was reading a magazine article about wonder studies or awe studies, and I was like, what the hell is that? I had no idea there were scientists who are out there studying what happens to our bodies when we experience awe. Yeah, I was like, that is so cool. I wonder if we can make that into an episode. And here we are.

[Raj Panjabi]

Here we are. And I'm so excited.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, we also got the guy who's basically seen as the founder of awe studies. His name is Dacher Keltner. He's been studying wonder and awe for over 20 years. He's a professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and he also was a consultant on the Pixar film Inside out, which.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, my God, I'm so geeked. That's one of my favorite movies.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So if anyone can teach us about wonder, awe, why we need it, and how to get more of it, it's gonna be Dacher.

[Raj Panjabi]

Let's do this.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Dacher, we're so happy to have you here. Thanks for being a part of the show.

[Dacher Keltner]

It's good to be with you guys.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Let's start at the beginning. We always talk about origin stories on this podcast. How does someone become a wonder researcher? What is your origin story?

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, I thought a lot about that in writing this book off for personal reasons, you know, having to do with the loss of my brother. And it's very fitting because awe, in many ways, is an emotion about origin stories. You know, it prompts us to think deeply about big processes, patterns in life, including your own origin. And my origin story, in many ways, is that I was born into a historical moment and in a place which was first Mexico and then Laurel Canyon in the late 60s and with parents. My dad was a visual artist. My mom taught literature, feminism, in a time, the late 60s, where it was all awe. It was just like sexual identity was changing. Revolutionary politics, although that didn't change too much. Free speech, civil Rights, sex, drugs, and rock and roll. And so I was a young kid, just like, wow, you know, life has so much awe in it. And then. And I'm, you know, just eternally grateful for how my parents parented me. To not worry about conventions and to be free and to get out into nature and to love art and, you know, and then, you know. How did I become a wonder or awe scientist? Well, I was not very good at what my parents did, which was art and fiction and writing. I just did. But I was really good at math and science and, you know, and good at, like, statistics. And so I realized that there was a science that began with Charles Darwin that could allow us to make progress in understanding something like awe. And so, you know, when it came time in my academic career, when I was about 45 and I had resources and permanent job at Berkeley, you know, I was like, I got to understand this emotion. It is like Einstein said, it's the beginning of almost everything that was meaningful to me. And so I just needed to study it.

[Raj Panjabi]

How do you define awe or wonder?

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, you know, Roger, I mean, science begins with definitions and terms and nomenclatures, and emotions are, you know, in our bodies and in lower regions of the brain, and they're like waves that come over us, and they're hard to describe with language. And awe is particularly hard to describe with language. In fact, a lot of people are like, it's ineffable. It's beyond words. You can't put rational, symbolic thought to it. And I disagree. And so John Hyde and I, in a paper in 2003, we read a lot of the religious approaches to awe and spiritual journaling and sociological anthropological approaches, and we were like, awe is an emotion you feel when you encounter vast mysteries. Right. You're walking along and you see a giant redwood tree or hear a loud sound, or you hear the. You see the large kindness of a human being. So it's vast most often, and it's mysterious. It transcends your understanding of the world. Right. It's like, how could that tree be 1700 years old? Or how could a guitar make such loud sounds? So awe is the feeling we have when we encounter best mysteries.

[Raj Panjabi]

I love that and like the word, the term vastness, too. I'm kind of in awe of, like, him just hitting the nail on the head, like, I get it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, it feels like. And built into that, too, is the idea of something bigger than yourself, fundamentally.

[Dacher Keltner]

And, you know. You know, there were a few words that I just kept coming back to in writing this Book one, and I'm glad you liked it, Raj, is like mystery, like, vast mystery that kind of is this interesting realm of experience. And what do. And what then we do is we try to get more precise. And kind of the core meaning of awe is you're feeling it come over you is being connected to something larger than yourself. You know, you. You go to a concert, you're with a big throbbing mass of people, and you're dancing and sweating, and. And then the music makes you suddenly feel awestruck, and. And you're like, God, I'm part of this. This. Whatever this is in this moment of musical reverence that is bigger than me and how important that is for human beings to be connected to things larger than ourselves.

[Raj Panjabi]

And I love that it can come from anywhere. I think about times when I'm walking down the street, it's a regular day, and I see a corgi, and I'm overwhelmed with cute aggression. And I'm like, how did this happen?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, completely.

[Dacher Keltner]

Wait a minute. We can't let that one just go. So tell us more about the feeling of being connected to something vaster than yourself.

[Raj Panjabi]

I mean, this is beautiful. I feel like I'm in therapy. I mean, now that I'm trying to verbalize, it's hard, but I'm literally asking the universe, how could something so beautiful, so cute, so amazing, be put together in such a perfect way? The little corgi butt's wiggling. It's, like, small and big at the same time. It's happy to see me. It's running toward me. There's nothing mechanical that could put that together. Something beyond me put that magical little corgi together in my life.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And something we talked about in the dog episode that we just did too, is this idea of animals especially. I think I often encounter wonder or awe with animals because they seem so pure and innocent, and there's just a goodness.

[Raj Panjabi]

There's no end to their goodness. It's vast.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, it is. And, you know, I take an evolutionary perspective on these emotions. Thank you for the incredible example, raj. In my 10,000 conversations about awe, Corey, you're the first to feel awe about a corgi. But, you know, evolution designed things that astonish us. That's a central thesis in the evolution of beauty in mating rituals and birds and the like. A lot of people with, you know, those dogs have been shaped by natural selection to astonish us and how cute they are. Yeah, it's like a baby's face, and it's like, I'll do Anything for this corgi. And they need you to do that and they will.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I love that. Tacker, I'm wondering, you are defining awe or wonder as a specific emotion, Right? So it's not like, you know, a combination of joy and fear and these other things. You're saying that awe or wonder is actually its own emotion, right?

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah. And thank you for that question because we spent 10, 12, 15 years just really making the case for that. That is important because for a couple of reasons. One is just getting the phenomena differentiated. There's a lot of thinking that kind of smushes all together with fear. You know, the etymology of the word awe is fear and dread and respect and then beauty. A lot of people have, like, tried, like Immanuel Kant, Edmund Burke, great philosophers, like, how does awe differ from beauty? You know, when you're awestruck by a forest versus you find it beautiful. And we did a lot of work looking at classic elements of emotion, like the vocalization of awe. Right. So I'm going to count to three and I want to hear your best sound of all. One, two, three.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Wow.

[Dacher Keltner]

There we go. So around the world, that's what people do, and that is different from a vocalization of fear or beauty. So you can look at awe in terms of subjective experience. And I'd really encourage the listeners to consult alencowen.com lot of really sophisticated work showing awe of the 20 emotions we might study is positive. It feels good. It is different from fear and horror. It's different subjectively from beauty. Right? It's different. It's close to admiration and love. So it is this emotion of just being reverential towards the vast parts of life we're part of. And so it's a distinct emotion. And why that's important is we now could think about its deep evolutionary origins. It's different from fear. It doesn't have to do with predation so much and other things. So we did a lot of work to do that and feel confident in saying it's its own thing to understand.

[Raj Panjabi]

Well, thank you for your service because I want to learn on this episode how to feel more awe. But before that, you've said that after researching awe in 26 countries. That's a soft flex. Very impressive. You've identified eight wonders of life. What are they?

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, and that's important because last thing you want to do is make a bunch of claims about awe, but just study people in California or the United States. So we got these stories of awe from 26 different countries in people's Own words. Mexico, India, Brazil, Poland. Really different countries. And it took us a long time to figure out, where do I find awe and what we found. And this aligns with a lot of philosophical literatures, is what I call the eight wonders, which is moral beauty, other people's kindness and courage, collective movement. You're in a yoga class together, you're dancing, you're at music, you're at a sporting event, nature, then music, visual design, spirituality. And then the interesting ones or the less intuitive ones, which are big ideas. People feel awe about big ideas, like God. When I first read Karl Marx, economic theory of consciousness, I was just like, I can't believe it. You know, this guy can explain thought patterns and class struggles. So I was awestruck by and then life and death, you know, that the life cycle makes us feel awe. And that one's interesting, you know, that it was interesting for me personally at the time and still that, you know, we are awestruck by life and death and it propels us to try to understand this great mystery of life. So those are our eight wonders.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. My dad passed away actually on Sunday, 17 years ago, and I was in the room with him when he died. And I watched, if you believe this, I watched his spirit leave his body. And it is probably like the singular most affecting moment of my life to see that. And I would say that that was just pure awe. There are other emotions at play, but definitely to see that moment. And so I agree, I would imagine I've never experienced this, but watching a baby being born, a human baby or an animal baby, all of that must also involve a lot of awe.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. I'm sorry for your.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Thanks.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And for me too, you know. No, it was like when I saw my younger brother, who I shared almost every significant moment of all in my life with, you know, go, I. I'm a reductionist scientist who loves neurons and statistics. And I was like, I see his spirit. I sense a space he was going to. I felt something transcendent. And it fits worldwide. People feel that there's something totally transcendent about the leaving of a person. And it is a source of our great thinking too. So it propelled me in that direction completely.

[Ryan Reynolds]

When you talk about these eight different wonders of life, is there one that you found in your research that is more affecting or that more people sort of feel like is more powerful than the other ones?

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, you know, we. We don't know. And I think one of the lessons that we glean from psychology is everybody is different. Individual differences Are profound. And in my own experience, and we've got data on this, there are people and cultures who are really nature places. You know, like, you know, I go to the rock climbing gym and a lot of those people awes about rock climbing in nature. I hung around musicians, you know, to understand musical awe. And for them, music's just mind blowing. You know, it's just always like every facet of it. You know, you get around spiritual people and it's. It's spirit. So I think they all matter to people in different ways. Which one is more powerful. If I had to say, I would say the first is moral beauty. Just taking in the kindness and courage and strength and overcoming that people are capable of. Just knocks people out. And it's everywhere. Right. We can always find that. And then nature, I mean, nature. It's so profound what nature does to your mind and body. As I profile in the book, through awe that I'd put that up there as well as the most powerful.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. And there's a lot of mystery to nature too. I think whenever I'm like at the ocean, my favorite place on earth, I'm like, what. What is going on in here? There's so much of you, like, tell me something. Yeah, the mystery.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And still don't know so much about it.

[Raj Panjabi]

We do not.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, it's mind blowing. And then, you know, if you push, you know, Ralph Waldo Emerson is a hero in this book, American Transcendentalism. And he really felt that. He said, I want to be a naturalist as a young man. And what he meant was, I want to find the divine and spirit in nature, like about 40% of people in the U.S. and he went on to. To show, just like you guys are suggesting, like, in our relationship to nature, we discover deep truths about mind, you know, evolution, life processes. And when my brother passed away and he and I used. We grew up in the foothills of the Sierras, spent a lot of time outdoors, backpacked. I just was. I'd go out and like, I just watch water for an hour, you know, like an ocean. And it would teach me, like, oh, there's cycles in life and this is one. So, you know, it is powerful just to be open to what nature reveals to us.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

And I think part of that is like, grief sometimes involves a lot of talking for people. Whether you're uncomfortable or that's a part of your spirituality. But the nature thing is, like, sometimes you need things other than words and.

[Dacher Keltner]

Symbols and patterns and metaphors and. And, you know, and I think death, like you said, Raj is one where it's like God, where did my brother go? Why do I still feel him around? And if I just open my and it was it really, you know, I was all us when I was heading into the writing of the book because I was in such grief and just being open to the emotion in nature and you know, contemplation or music. It just opened my mind to new ways of thinking about the world, which I needed.

[Raj Panjabi]

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

[Farnoosh]

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[Raj Panjabi]

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[Raj Panjabi]

Welcome back to Am I Doing It Wrong?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think it's interesting too. Like, sometimes Raj and I talk about how we both consider ourselves kind of quote unquote, woo, woo. And on this show, you know, that comes up once in a while. And I think people could hear this conversation so far and think that that's what this is. But you actually are studying awe from a scientific standpoint and we're going to get into it now. But the idea that awe is actually good for you, but this is from a scientific standpoint. What was your first scientific study of awe like? Tell us about that. And how do you study awe scientifically?

[Raj Panjabi]

And I do have to add to that, like, I am a little bit woo woo. But I love science so much. And whenever people talk about studies, I'm like, well, was it peer reviewed? Like, I am that kind of science chick also.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dacher Keltner]

So please tell us, yes, I hear you and that really mattered. And, you know, I speak, I teach awe to a lot of skeptical audiences like medical doctors and federal judges. And I always rely on the deep science. And I will say right now, you know, our. Go to alencowen.com and our what are called computational studies with new statistics to show that awe is its own emotion are state of the art. We had to invent statistics to do that research, you know, and then the new neurophysiology of awe, which we can get to is incredible, involving the inflammation process in the vagus nerve and the like our first study of all. And we had a lot of failures and we would bring people in and show them giant video screens of fractals and the technology breakdown. Oops, sorry, hold on. Then our first real study was Lonnie Shiota, who's now a professor at Arizona State. And I just had people. We started to rely on the world as our lab and not bring people into a small little room with no windows and show them a video clip, but rather like study people near big trees or at Yosemite or we did research at the Great Wall of China. And the first study I'm very proud of involved dinosaurs. And I was obsessed with dinosaurs since age five. And we have on the Berkeley campus a replica of the skeleton of a T. Rex. And it's awesome.

[Raj Panjabi]

So cool.

[Dacher Keltner]

You know, it's. It's 12ft tall, it's long. You know, it's just like you stand next to it, you're like, oh, I Know about that thing? That thing eats everything. And now I see why. And I kind of feel like what it'd be like to be chased by a T. Rex, you know. So we put people, we just like had them stand next to the T. Rex and take it in. Or they stood in the same place, but they looked down the hallway at an academic hallway. And when you're just feeling awe at the T. Rex, it transforms your sense of self. You're like, you move out of the individualism of our times to man. I'm part of a collective. I share humanity with other people. We're all human beings caring about the same thing. It brings out our higher collective self. And that was our first study and it taught us if you want to study awe, we've put people near tall trees, big views, sunsets. Maria Monroy, student of mine, studied the eclipse, you know, which is coming up get people where it really. And now there are studies of people in mosh pits and concerts and of course psychedelics. So we've learned. And that was our first study published I think in 2009.

[Raj Panjabi]

I mean, that's a great segue because I really want to ask you what happens to us physically when we feel awe? I can in a woo woo way describe it only as like, I feel like I'm glowing neon pink. Like when I'm feeling awe. Tell me, but tell me what's really happening, what's happening in our bodies?

[Dacher Keltner]

So we have this measure of the glowing neon pink region of your brain and. No, I'm kidding, we. Yeah, you know, it's amazing and it tells us so much about the evolution of the human nervous system, which is when you feel awe, right? You hear amazing music and you're tearing up. You're at a political rally and the speaker moves you with a vision of the future, or you're taking in nature, or you're thinking about a big idea that you love. What happens? One region of the brain is deactivated, the default mode network. And that is where all of the self representational processes takes place. I'm thinking about myself, my time, my goals, my strivings, my checklist that quiets down during all the ego death, right? Then your vagus nerve is activated. The big bundle of nerves starting in the top of your spinal cord helps you look at people and vocalize, slows your heart rate, helps with digestion, opens up your body to things bigger than you. Then you get the goosebumps. That's this amazing physiological reaction of little muscles contracting around your hair follicles suddenly you feel like there's electricity in your back. And that's. Primates show that when they merge with other primates to be strong together, you might tear up, which is a physiological response, part of the parasympathetic nervous system. And then your inflammation is cooler. It's part of your immune system that attacks diseases. And we want it to be cooler and not always hot. And all cools down the inflammation process. So it's an amazing cascade of physiology that, that we can find almost any day. And very good for you. It's a good thing.

[Raj Panjabi]

Where can I bottle this and buy it?

[Ryan Reynolds]

It makes me wonder then I guess about, you know, so it's good for us. How can we get more on our lives then? What have you, what have you devised or what have you seen that works that actually does make people feel awe and can trigger all of these beneficial effects?

[Dacher Keltner]

And you guys are really pointing to how our science is evolving, which is, I think, you know, the new generation scientists that I partner, collaborate with in, you know, my lab, they're really, they want to make the world better. You know, it's not just science to describe or find truth. It's so like, how do we deal with climate crisis or over consumerism or conspiracy theories or authoritarian politics? What do we do? Racism? And so a lot of scientists are really starting to, they took the awe science and they said, oh my God, it's good for you. Elevated vagal tone, less inflammation, less depression, less anxiety, et cetera, which are all findings replicated. Peer review. What I tell people is there are two things which is and their studies starting to come in. The first is the awe mindset. Like, you know, give yourself a few minutes a day or every other day, slow down your schedule, put away your devices, start breathing deeply and open your mind to something larger than yourself. And it might be, you know, I'm looking at images of my daughters, which made me think about the two decades they've been alive. I'm thinking about our conversation. Like, wow, here are three human beings with different minds that are sharing ideas, right? I'm looking at an Iggy Pop poster from a show I saw. You know, so slow it down, breathe deep, open your mind to something larger. And then you can use that mindset in the eight wonders of Life. And there are studies now showing if I go outdoors and do my regular walk. You guys walk regularly?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, yeah. Big walkers.

[Dacher Keltner]

There is new research on listening to music for meaning. All right, man, this piece of music really makes me cry. I'm going to listen to it. Think about what it means to me and why. And that is as good for you as for pain, chronic pain, as pharmaceuticals. Think about somebody, moral beauty, who inspired you, just, whoa. Who was a inspirational person for you? Just dwell on that person for a minute or two. So there are all these techniques that are coming that we're trying to integrate into healthcare, right? Palliative care, pain, et cetera. And I think they're a next frontier of health science, frankly.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Can we specifically talk about, like, the awalk and the studies that have happened? Because I think I was reading a study, and I'm not sure if this is one that you did or someone else did, but there are basically two different groups. And the control group just went on a walk, and the other was tasked with noticing just one thing while they were on their walk. And they found that the people who did that and had a moment of awe, actually. Well, I'm not sure. You tell us what happened when that happened.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, no, that's a great summary. Thank you. It was people who are 75 years old or older. So you're starting to get anxious and depressed about the end of life, more body pain, and the control condition. Once a week, they went out on a walk. Our OWA condition, they go out and we say, you know, while you're out on your walk, go someplace where you might feel a little childlike wonder, you know, and look around and look at the small things and look at the big things and just follow that sense of mystery and wonder. That's all we ask them to do. And what we found, three really cool things. One, each week they do this. Over the eight weeks, they start to feel more and more awe, right? So as we search for awe, we find more of it, which I think is really important. Number two, our people, 75 years old or older, over time felt less pain and distress. And, you know, chronic pain and pain when you're old is serious. It just rattles your consciousness. And here was a little technique that gave them some peace. And the third one was back to the disappearance of the self, which is each week we have them take a picture of themselves. And what we found is, you know, on the awe walk that they start to, like, move off to the side of the photo like this. They kind of disappear. And so what that tells us is their consciousness is they're not thinking about, okay, there's my face, and I get it perfectly situated in the photo. They're more interested in the vaster scene that they're part of and losing track of themselves. And that's important, right? That's important to expand our attention to things outside of the self.

[Raj Panjabi]

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by hers.

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[Raj Panjabi]

Welcome back to Am I Doing It Wrong?

[Ryan Reynolds]

One of the things that Raj and I have talked a lot about is that we both have. We're lucky to have partners. I think Raj and I are both naturally curious people and people who do look for awe in the world. And we have partners, Raj's partner Calvin, my partner Benji, who are interested in the same thing. And I think you're right. It's sort of like the more you look for it, it's a muscle. The more you condition yourself or the more you have people around you who are also looking for it. I think the more you find it. And the other thing that I'm hearing you say, Dacher, too, is that I think when we think about awe and wonder, we think about it having to be these big things. So, like watching a baby be born or things. But it can also just be, look at that daffodil. That's the first daffodil that I've seen this year. Or there are these chickens in Brooklyn. These people have chickens in their front yard. And I happened upon them, and I was like, what are these chickens doing living in Brooklyn? And I was in awe. And so I love this idea that it doesn't have to be something big. We can find a moment of awe every time we leave our houses or we wander into a new room, maybe.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah. And you know what? That's really also. Dr. Making me think about trying to keep people around you who have that kind of mindset, like an adventurous mindset. I take that for granted. I think I have several people in my life who are like, oh, my God, it's raining. Like, this storm is gorgeous. And I pick up on that myself.

[Dacher Keltner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys are saying such important, fundamental reasons why I wrote this book. We stereotype awe as like, oh, the time that I saw the Barrier Reef, et cetera. But really, it's everywhere. Our data suggested in different countries two times a week. So that means you can get up to three or four and enjoy its benefits. Easy, easy. And to your point, Raj, you know, that then begs the question of, like, I really think there are no data on this, but I do believe that friendships, great sibling relations, parent child relations, partner relations are grounded and shared awe. And. And we haven't really thought about that. And. And your intuition points to, I think, a lot of necessary science and. And understanding.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Decker, what would you say if someone wants to have more awe in their life? Like, what's the one thing they should do? I always think about my advisor when I went to grad school for poetry. Her name is Sharon Olds. She's one of the most incredible.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, my God, she's big, famous.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I was so lucky to work with her. And she once told me that the thing that poets do is they notice the world, and then they're able to take what they notice and tie it to emotion. And she was like, again, like, just going back to just seeing a flower and thinking about how does that connect to my experience? And that's what I would say, if you ask me, like, how do we have more awe? It's literally, is like going on an awe walk, looking for just very small moments that we can actually think about as feeling meaningful or feeling vast. But what would you say? What do you think? Any listener right now, they want it. It's Tuesday afternoon. They want more awe. What should they do?

[Dacher Keltner]

You know, a lot of people are talking about this being an era of a crisis of meaning, that we have lost sight of the bigger stories we're part of, you know, as we move away from religion and the culture is polarized and et cetera. And I think you got it, you know, in your example. No, which is that at its core, awe is about, as Jane Goodall said, being amazed at things that are outside and larger than yourself. And I love the word notice. I would say pause and look to the small and the vast. So just approach life with that attitude of like, I'm just going to be pausing and noticing. And what I'm really looking for is how is my unique identity, Dacher Keltner, connected to vaster things right now? Right? And that's always true. We're always shaped by evolution. We're always part of quantum physics. We're always part of a society. We're always part of a culture. We always have a history. We started with origins. So be asking those questions about, what are you related to that's larger than you and how do you serve it? And it'll get you to awe really fast. Suddenly you'll be like, I gotta listen to that piece of music that blew my mind when I was 12. And you listen to it and you're like, I'm thinking of my friend and my childhood and what my parents are trying to teach me. And next thing you know, you're having a moment of awe. So. So I think it's a mindset of the self in relation to what's fast.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I have chills.

[Dacher Keltner]

I know.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, that's beautiful.

[Raj Panjabi]

It's so good. Okay. When I think about social media especially, it reminds me that we are living in a time of great narcissism and shame and insecurity. You've written that awe can be an antidote to that. How so?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, that's a good question.

[Dacher Keltner]

It's been a theme of our time together, you know, Noah and Raj. Awe is this noticing, as Sharon olds you were suggesting. She said of like, what is out there that is wonderful and that I'm part of, be it nature, culture or the like. And right now a lot of broad data summarized by Gene Twenge and others is like, this is. We're more self focused than I mean, potentially at any time in human history.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Dacher Keltner]

Taking photos of the self and reporting on my day and following influencers and comparing myself to them and all this envy and shame. And I'm glad you use that word of like, oh, you know, look how handsome that guy is. And I don't have that body, et cetera, which we all do. And, and it is, I think the data suggests part of the problem of our times that young people, a lot of people feel depressed and not kind to themselves and awe does the opposite. Awe is like, it shuts down those parts of the brain. So you're like, like I didn't even know what I was wearing at that time or what my face or my hair was messed up. And it connects you to these large things out there, right. That matter that we need to be part of. And so yeah, I feel, you know, publishing this book, you know, I was just struck by the chord. It struck like, wow, you know, this is what high schoolers need. This is what young people in college and beyond need. You know, this is what, what the workplace needs. This is what doctors need to remind themselves of. Like, man, we're saving lives. That is sacred. You know, it is scientifically an antidote to self focus. We know that robustly. It gets us to think about how related to large things. And I hope we can do a few things out in the world that instantiate that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Would you say Dacher then? This is something that Raj and I talk about a lot and God, it gets me emotional just to even think about this. But we started this podcast in September, and we have a lot of fun doing it. And we do episodes about pooping and about buying airline tickets and a lot of stuff that just, you know, in the grand scheme of things, quote, unquote, doesn't matter. And when there's so much that's going wrong in the world right now, I think sometimes she and I think, well, how can we do a show about something like awe or wonder when there are people dying in Gaza? You know? And that feels reductive in some ways to, like, boil it that far down. But it is something that we think about.

[Raj Panjabi]

No, we talk about it. Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And it sounds like what you're saying is that actually this is exactly why we need more. More awe and wonder, because it takes us out of ourselves and it makes us connected to something bigger than us. And that's the energy that hopefully could help remedy some of the hurt that's happening and the cruelness and the terror that's happening.

[Raj Panjabi]

That's really well said.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Is that what you would you agree with that?

[Dacher Keltner]

I, you know, and I got bullish about that because I felt the same, you know, like, why awe is art and music and, you know, gardening, whatever, man. We've got Gaza, you know, 30,000 dead and climate crisis and polar and authoritarianism, mass incarceration, which I care about. But empirically, we know awe makes people better, stewards of the environment consume less, and it makes people less polarized. They're like, you know, I can actually find some common ground with this. This guy in the defense industry or whatever. So that's science. And then, you know, I, in writing the book, it was clear to me, and this is now a very hot focus of scholarship, that history changes really well for progress when we follow awe. You know, the reaction of young people to Gaza was that had awe in it. It was like, oh, it's all come together, what the lives of those people in the occupation is like. And I have to take action. Charles Darwin, when he was looking at nature, he's just like, it was all odds, like, God. I understand evolution and nature and how history moves. So I think a lot of our best innovations are social change come out of awe, and we need them right now. You know, the crisis in Gaza and environmental issues and the like. And awe does a lot of good work. It fast tracks us to solutions, which I think we need.

[Raj Panjabi]

Man, DACA for President of the World.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I will vote for you completely. But you don't know. We need him in the lab. We need Him. Yeah. You can't be a novo. This. We need you.

[Farnoosh]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Dakker. Thank you for this.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I feel like I had therapy too. Right?

[Raj Panjabi]

I. I really feel. I need. I need a nap. I.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And we need an aw walk, and then we need a nap. Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

Then a burger. I need to process everything, and I.

[Dacher Keltner]

Need to see that corgi and, like, oh, my God.

[Raj Panjabi]

I'm happy about it.

[Dacher Keltner]

Well, thank you, Noah and Raj. It's been an incredible conversation. Foreign.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It'S time for better in five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode.

[Raj Panjabi]

Number one. Awe is its own emotion. It's the feeling of experiencing a vastness or a connection to something bigger than yourself.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Number two, Dacher has found when it comes to awe, there are eight wonders of life, and the ones that seem to be the most powerful are experiencing moral, beauty, and nature.

[Raj Panjabi]

Number three. Studies have shown that experiencing awe can literally heal us. It has psychological and physical benefits, including lowering pain.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Number four, if you want more awe in your life, try taking an awe walk, where you just spend a few minutes noticing the things around you.

[Raj Panjabi]

And number five, awe can be an antidote to narcissism and shame, and it can help us feel more connected to each other. Okay, Noah, this is a strange question, but have you been doing awe wrong?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I don't know, because I've never really thought about doing awe right. I guess I never even thought it was a thing that I should be thinking about.

[Raj Panjabi]

Are you doing it enough?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think I do it a lot, and it does. Maybe it's my background as a poet. Maybe it's the way I was raised. I spend a lot of time looking at the world around me and thinking, how am I connected to that? What's going on there? What can I learn more about this thing? And I do feel like it enriches my life, so I want more of it. What about you? Have you been doing awe wrong?

[Raj Panjabi]

You know what? I kind of didn't really know what it was. I was kind of conflating it with joy and happiness. I still do it, but I definitely want more, especially now that I know that it can physically heal you. I'm trying to be a hot girl, 98 years old, so I want more.

[Ryan Reynolds]

One of the things I love about this episode, too, is that, you know, the episodes where we do something really tangible, like how to do your laundry better or how to buy plane tickets better. Like, those are great, and I love those episodes too. But it's cool to think about a concept or an emotion and how we do it better. And I felt like Dacher actually really gave us some practical ways to experience awe.

[Raj Panjabi]

He's gonna help us find awe and wonder in doing our laundry.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, I love it. A combo. A mashup. Anyway, until next time, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.

[Raj Panjabi]

Damn right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Do you have something you think you're doing wrong? Email [e-mail] and let us know.

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