Surviving A Trip To A Public Restroom

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Surviving A Trip To A Public Restroom"

Episode Details:

• Title: Surviving A Trip To A Public Restroom
• Podcast: Am I Doing It Wrong?
• Hosts: Raj Panjabi and Noah Michelson
• Guest: Jason Tetrow, Microbiologist and Author of The Germ Code and The Germ Files
• Release Date: October 31, 2024

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Introduction to Public Restroom Anxieties

Timestamp: [01:40]

Raj Panjabi and Noah Michelson delve into a common yet often overlooked anxiety: using public restrooms. They openly share their concerns regarding hygiene and the potential dangers lurking in these shared spaces. This conversation sets the stage for a deeper exploration into the science of germs and practical strategies to navigate public bathrooms safely.

Meet the Expert: Jason Tetrow

Timestamp: [02:28]

To provide authoritative insights, the hosts invite Jason Tetrow, widely known as the "Germ Guy." With his extensive background in microbiology and authorship of two books on germs, Tetrow offers a credible perspective on the realities of public restroom hygiene.

How Germy Are Public Restroom Toilet Seats?

Timestamp: [03:15]

Jason Tetrow: "At any given time, about 50% of public toilet seats have some kind of poo germs on them, ranging from E. coli to more concerning pathogens like salmonella." ([03:22])

Tetrow explains that while toilet seats do harbor germs, the risk of transmission is often exaggerated. He clarifies that the contamination is primarily bacterial rather than viral, dispelling myths about sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) being transmitted through toilet seats.

The Poo Plume Phenomenon

Timestamp: [04:33]

Noah Michelson: "We heard about the poo plume spraying particles up to six feet if the lid isn't shut. How real is this?" ([04:43])

Jason Tetrow: "The poo plume is indeed a real phenomenon. If the toilet lid isn't closed, particles can spray up to six feet, potentially contaminating nearby surfaces. However, aerosols generated from flushing can spread viruses further, contributing to viral contamination in the stall." ([05:31])

The discussion highlights the importance of closing the toilet lid before flushing to minimize the spread of germs. Tetrow emphasizes that while bacterial contamination can occur, viral particles like norovirus are of greater concern due to their ability to remain airborne longer.

Debunking STD Transmission Myths

Timestamp: [08:26]

Noah Michelson: "Can you really catch gonorrhea or syphilis from a toilet seat?" ([08:26])

Jason Tetrow: "No, you cannot catch STDs from toilet seats. The minimal effective dose required for these infections is not achievable through casual contact with a toilet seat." ([08:32])

Tetrow reassures listeners that fears surrounding STD transmission via toilet seats are unfounded, focusing instead on more plausible risks like gastrointestinal infections.

Best Practices for Public Restroom Hygiene

Timestamp: [10:55]

Noah Michelson: "What’s the best way to protect ourselves when using a public restroom?" ([10:55])

Jason Tetrow: "The most effective method is to use disinfectant wipes to clean the toilet seat before use. Allow the surface to dry fully to ensure maximum germ elimination." ([15:58])

Raj Panjabi: "I flush with my foot and run out of the stall." ([05:09])

The hosts and Tetrow agree on several practical strategies:

• Disinfecting the Seat: Use wipes to clean before sitting.
• Avoiding Touch Points: Minimize contact with high-touch areas like door handles and soap dispensers.
• Hand Hygiene: Thoroughly wash hands for at least 20 seconds, ensuring all surfaces are cleaned properly.

Hand Washing: The Cornerstone of Hygiene

Timestamp: [28:05]

Jason Tetrow: "Proper hand washing removes about 99.9% of germs. Hand sanitizers can further reduce any remaining microbes." ([35:40])

Tetrow underscores the importance of effective hand washing techniques, including using soap and water, covering all parts of the hands, and spending adequate time lathering. He also discusses the limitations of hand dryers, which can spread aerosols containing germs if hands aren't washed thoroughly.

Innovations and Solutions for Cleaner Restrooms

Timestamp: [44:21]

Noah Michelson: "Why don't we have more foot-operated flushers and door handles?" ([45:37])

Jason Tetrow: "Foot pedals can significantly reduce germ transmission by eliminating the need to touch surfaces with hands. Additionally, non-touch systems for sinks and dispensers are becoming more prevalent and should be encouraged." ([44:32])

The conversation explores potential technological advancements to enhance restroom hygiene, advocating for hands-free mechanisms to minimize contact and germ spread.

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Timestamp: [49:59]

The episode wraps up with a "Better in Five" segment summarizing the main points:

1. Restrooms Have Germs, But They're Not Usually Dangerous: Most germs in public restrooms won't make you sick.
2. Disinfectant Wipes Over Barriers: Cleaning the toilet seat with wipes is more effective than using paper seat covers.
3. High-Touch Surfaces Are Germier: Handles, soap dispensers, and hand dryer switches harbor more germs than toilet seats.
4. Avoid the Poo Plume: Close the lid before flushing and exit the stall promptly to minimize exposure.
5. Thorough Hand Washing Is Essential: Spend at least 20 seconds washing with soap to remove germs effectively.

Notable Quotes:

• Jason Tetrow: "The lid contains droplets, but aerosols can spread viruses much further." ([05:31])
• Raj Panjabi: "I never put my bare ass on a toilet seat. Once I did, and took four showers after." ([13:01])
• Noah Michelson: "Most germs are not there to hurt us. If you feel comfortable just sitting on a toilet seat after you've wiped it down, go for it." ([26:37])

---

Final Thoughts: This episode of Am I Doing It Wrong? provides a comprehensive look into public restroom hygiene, blending scientific insights with practical advice. Jason Tetrow effectively demystifies common germ-related fears, empowering listeners to navigate public restrooms with confidence and informed caution.

Transcript

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[Noah Michelson]

Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year contracts, they said, what the are you talking about, you insane Hollywood? So to recap, we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a [e-mail] Switch $45 upfront.

[Jason Tetrow]

Payment equivalent to $15 per month New customers on first 3 month plan only Taxes and fees Extra speed slower above.

[Germ Guy]

40 gigabyte Foreign.

[Raj Panjabi]

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi, Head of identity content at HuffPost.

[Noah Michelson]

And I'm Noah Michelson, head of HuffPost Personal.

[Raj Panjabi]

Welcome to Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay Raj, here's one that might strike terror in some of our listeners hearts. Are you doing public bathrooms wrong?

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, you mean all the germs? Yeah, I think I'm doing all right. Especially since COVID I've tried to be really, really stringent upon the hand washing and everything, but I definitely think there's some creepy crawlies and some dangers I don't know about that. I could be more careful. What about you?

[Noah Michelson]

I feel the same way. I'm pretty grossed out by them. But I also wonder because we've had other germ episodes and we've heard that germs aren't as bad as we think. A lot of times I wonder If I'm just being too stringent and overly.

[Raj Panjabi]

Paranoid, I don't think for me, that's not a thing.

[Noah Michelson]

Especially when it comes to public restrooms. Yeah, well, you know who's gonna tell us? Yes, it is Jason Tetrow. He has been on a couple times. People love him. He's affectionately known as the germ guy. And he's written two books, the Germ Code and the Germ Files. He's a microbiologist. He is going to tell us what's lurking in public restrooms and how we can worry less about it.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, save us, germ king.

[Noah Michelson]

Jason, welcome back to the show. Thank you for being here.

[Germ Guy]

Oh, it's always so much fun.

[Noah Michelson]

So we are heading into a very scary place, the public bathroom.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, shudder.

[Noah Michelson]

Let's just start with the thing that everyone is already thinking about. How germy is that toilet seat in a public bathroom?

[Germ Guy]

It's pretty germy, actually. And it's funny too, because, like, every time I talk about toilet seats and toilets, I'm always saying, well, it's not. Jeremy, you know, everything as germier than a toilet seat. And I mean, those are from studies that were done back in the 1970s and controlled laboratory environments that were mimicking the home. They also had a lid, right?

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

Most places, most public bathrooms don't have lids. And as a result of that, there's that plume that comes from the toilet that ends up on the seat. And no matter where you go, you're always going to find that about 50% of the toilet seats at any given time are going to have some kind of poo germs on them in the range of the hundreds. And I mean, we're talking, you know, like E. Coli, right. That. That's your standard poo germ. But a quarter of them are going to have pathogens like salmonella. And I mean, when you think about it, it makes sense. We have a relatively high prevalence of people having gastrointestinal infections. And when you gotta go, you kind of gotta go. And sometimes people, you know, miss. Sorry.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Germ Guy]

It's just true.

[Noah Michelson]

Or there's splashing. I mean, I think we should just stop, though, too. So we did do an episode on our home bathrooms, and this blew my mind where you were talking about how there is something called a poo plume.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

And if you don't shut the toilet lid, basically these particles can spray up to, like six feet in the air. So your shower curtain can be covered, that kind of thing. But you told us so much of it is Contained if you just shut that lid. Ever since we had that episode, every time I go in a public restroom, I'm like, there's no lid on any of these toilet.

[Raj Panjabi]

You know what I do? I flush the toilet with my foot and I run out of the bathroom stall.

[Noah Michelson]

Right. Well, that I think is smart. But I want to hear more, Jason, about how much the rest of that stall must be coated in poo plume germs, aside from just the seat. So the seat, you're saying already can have pathogens, can have E. Coli, but what is the poo plume doing to the rest of that stall?

[Germ Guy]

Here's the funny thing about that plume bloom. And believe it or not, after we did that episode, I had some virologists contact me and say, you got it all wrong, man. Because you're talking about the droplets, you're talking about the bacteria, but you're not thinking about the aerosols. You're not thinking about the viruses. And there was actually a study that was done that showed that if it was viruses that you were looking at, even if you had the lid, you still had the same amount as if you had an open lid of viruses. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's a really good point, because the lid contains all the droplets, and those droplets go about six feet. But the aerosols can go, like, so much further that that's where you start finding that the stalls themselves are going to end up having some kind of viral contamination. So, believe it or not, the bacteria levels on the stalls are going to be relatively low because the droplets are mainly going to fall on the floor, but aerosols are gonna end up on the sides of the stalls, and that's gonna lead to viruses being there. And while there's not a lot of viruses people know about that can cause gastrointestinal infections. I know that there's one everybody knows about. It's called norovirus. And if you've ever heard about a cruise ship that had like to come back to port because people were pooping too much, that's usually the virus.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Raj Panjabi]

Wow. That's absolutely crazy. That repulsion we feel has to be evolutionary and like an adaptive thing so we can stay away from these viruses.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Germ Guy]

And the thing that people found out. And I've got a friend who's at Bloomingdale, Indiana. She's a professor in, Believe it or Not, Smellosophy, so she studies the philosophy of smells. And one of the. And you have to bring her on the show. She'd just be amazing. But anyway, she studies the idea of how smells can interact with our bodies and what it makes us do. And there are certain elements like sulfur and nitrogen that essentially make us veer away from something almost immediately. And so that disgust that comes from the smell of fecal matter or the smell of urine can actually make you move away from there. And part of that comes from the fact that those things are associated with decomposition, which are associated with bacteria and potentially viruses. And as a result of that, you could potentially end up getting infected. It's just like this really cool thing that we have no control over that's simply due to chemistry.

[Raj Panjabi]

Our bodies are so cool.

[Noah Michelson]

I love that, too. Yeah, so interesting.

[Raj Panjabi]

So we know some of the things we can catch from the infamous poo plume. What else can we catch from a public toilet? Like, are we talking, like, sitting on it? Are we talking about, like, gonorrhea? Are we talking about butt zits, like the flu? What. What, What's. What are we really in danger of?

[Noah Michelson]

I've heard people say that about, like, I don't want to get gonorrhea or syphilis from a toilet seat. Like, is. Can that really happen?

[Germ Guy]

No. And we've been saying this since, like, the 1980s, that you can't really catch, like, an STD from a toilet seat. There's a certain thing called a minimal effective dose. And so you have to be exposed to a certain amount of that particular bug in order for it to cause an infection. All right, so we do see potentially some low level of all sorts of different types of bacteria and viruses that could potentially cause an infection. But the reality is, unless. Unless you have a cut, then there's really no opportunity for that to get into your skin to cause a problem. Now, could you potentially end up with some butt zits as a result of sitting down on a really, you know, unsanitary toilet seat? It's a possibility, but, I mean, it's kind of the same as maybe just walking with bare feet on a bathroom floor. Yeah, there's a chance you might get some warts, but it's really, really low. Unless you happen to be, like, in a shower where, you know it's going to be much higher. Thankfully, most of the time the toilet seats are not wet. And if they are wet, well, you know, probably wipe it off and use a disinfectant wipe. We can talk about that later. But in terms of those STDs, there's really nothing that can be caught from the toilet seat in that context.

[Noah Michelson]

What about the salmonella or the E. Coli. Is that an issue from sitting on the toilet seat?

[Germ Guy]

No. So the thing is, with salmonella, Campylobacter and all of those, the only way that they're going to infect you is if they get into your mouth and go down and into your gastrointestinal tract. And it has to be at a certain level, has to be a certain amount. And we've already found out, doing all sorts of different types of testing, that the risk is either from you touching it when it's wet, getting enough, and then putting in your mouth right afterwards, which I'm hoping you're not doing, or what I'm also hoping you're not doing is breaking rule number one of microbiology, which is do not lick.

[Noah Michelson]

Right. If you're licking a public toilet seat, again, we don't kink shame on this program, but I just think that's not a good idea.

[Raj Panjabi]

It's not a good idea.

[Germ Guy]

Look, I mean, I'm okay with licking a toilet seat after you've used a disinfectant wipe on it and let it dry.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay? I think that's fair.

[Germ Guy]

I'm being as inclusive as I possibly get here while still being infection prevention here.

[Noah Michelson]

Well, let's move away from here.

[Raj Panjabi]

God, please.

[Noah Michelson]

Let's talk about what is the best way to, quote, unquote, protect ourselves. If we're gonna sit on a toilet seat, do those paper protectors work? Should we wipe it down with toilet paper or make one of those, like, toilet paper lifesaver rings around it, you know? And is that even. Is that even necessary? I mean, it sounds like we're not gonna get in that much trouble.

[Germ Guy]

No. And the thing is, okay, I remember when these sort of ideas came out, and it was as a result of the fact that we were dealing with a particular virus back in the 1980s called HIV. Right, right. And if you remember, no glove, no love, Right. So you wanted to have barrier protection. And it's funny because during COVID I would talk about masks the same way I would talk about hiv. It's barrier protection. Oh, I got in so much trouble. It was so much fun. But anyways, people would do the same thing with toilet seats. They're like, well, we need barrier protection. So we could either create the. You know, someone came up with the idea of these paper seat cover covers. And of course, if you don't have those, then people are using toilet paper. It's a complete waste of time and of resources, and it's not particularly great for the environment. Now, if you still Want to have some kind of protection? Well, we now have a better way of doing that, and that's not through a barrier protection. It's actually through disinfectant wipes. So if you are concerned about a toilet seat, then, yeah, absolutely. You can definitely wipe it down and wait for it to dry. And I'm going to explain why you want to wait for that to dry later on. But the thing is, is after you've done that, then you know that it's gonna be safe enough for you to be able to sit on and potentially lick again. Inclusiveness here.

[Noah Michelson]

Right. It's so interesting, though, because so much of what was going on in the 80s in terms of HIV, quote, unquote, prevention, was just bad science and people being terrified. And once it got into people's heads, it's like we're still dealing with that, like you said 40 years later, is that people are still scared of that and don't understand even where these sort of urges or inclinations come from. Raj, do you use. If you' to sit on a toilet seat, are you using some kind of protection?

[Raj Panjabi]

All right, let me tell you something. In public. I am a squatter, and I want to ask about how safe that. I never put my bare ass on a toilet seat. The one time I did it was when I was super, super drunk at a club and accidentally fell onto the toilet seat. Okay. And then I took four showers because my butt touched the plastic of the seat. Never again. That was like, 2009. Okay, so I'm. Is it okay to squat? Because I feel like I. My pee doesn't totally empty out when I'm squatting. Like, what's the deal with. I think a lot of people squat.

[Germ Guy]

Okay, first off, let me. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever seen Cirque du Soleil?

[Noah Michelson]

Yes.

[Raj Panjabi]

I have caught snippets on YouTube.

[Germ Guy]

Okay. So this would be like Cirque du Toilet. All right. And the fact of the matter is, is that if you're going to be, like, an acrobat doing some kind of squatting or stuff like that in a public toilet, just like, they have to do practice at home.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, I do. I do my weighted squats. Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

You feel like you have it down to a side.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

Oh, yeah. And the thing is, is, I mean, I've been to many countries where they don't have a seat. You have to squat. And I had not done my Cirque du Toilet at home, so I was very, very much hopeless. It was. I ended up actually doing something that Looked more like a sumo wrestler as opposed to a proper squat. It was. It was really bad. But if you can practice at home, right, then the squat is really not that big of a deal. Where it could get a bit weird is, as you were saying, sometimes when you're squatting, if you're using the wrong muscles, you're not going to get everything out. And that's one of the reasons why sitting down is so effective, because you can sort of push everything out with the right muscles. So make sure that you're practicing. And if you are squatting and you're finding that not enough is coming out, then, yeah, you may have to, unfortunately, just sit down. And, I mean, I know ergonomically speaking, it just sounds completely ridiculous that you would want to practice a squat, but honestly, until you've actually had that moment where you either have to realize you're going to squat around the lid or you're going to stand on the seat. Because I've seen that. It's just the weirdest thing. And if you haven't practiced for it, you could fall and injure yourself pretty well.

[Raj Panjabi]

Listen, anyone that catches me at the gym three times a week knows that I love my buns of steel. So I'm squatting anyway.

[Noah Michelson]

You're prepped.

[Raj Panjabi]

I urge everyone to squat. Why not strengthen your bottom half?

[Noah Michelson]

I don't like to use a public restroom where I'm gonna actually be sitting on the seat. I'd rather do that business at home. But if I'm going to, I just wipe it down with toilet paper, Especially if I see anything on it. And then I just think I'm probably fine. And I don't worry about it too much.

[Germ Guy]

If you were to just wipe with a cloth, you're gonna wipe about 80% off. Cause the studies that I used to do in the lab, if you use water or any kind of detergent, you're gonna get 90 to 99% off.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay.

[Germ Guy]

And then if you use a dis, then you're going to kill, and it's going to bring it down about 99.9 or 99.99% down.

[Raj Panjabi]

Wow.

[Noah Michelson]

There you go.

[Raj Panjabi]

I love that. And I love the Clorox wipes that say, like, we kill 99.9% of the drugs.

[Noah Michelson]

Makes you feel better.

[Raj Panjabi]

Jason said it does.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

Oh, no. Yeah. And I used to test it, so I know it actually is true.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, God, I love that.

[Germ Guy]

The only thing that I have to tell you, and this is what I was talking about earlier, is there is something called A contact time that you have to obey.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Germ Guy]

And with a disinfectant wipe, the contact time means it has to stay wet for 30 seconds.

[Noah Michelson]

Yep. Right.

[Germ Guy]

So that's why I say you've got to wait for it to dry. Don't try and make it dry. Don't use a paper towel or a toilet paper to try and dry it fast because you're going to, you know, essentially make it not work. You just got to let it sit and wait.

[Raj Panjabi]

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Fabric Raj.

[Noah Michelson]

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[Raj Panjabi]

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[Raj Panjabi]

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Okay, let's be honest and talk about doing dating wrong. So, Raj, have you ever pretended to be into something that you're not actually into when you're on a date just so you keep the person's attention?

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, absolutely. I once was on a date and I am a Knicks fan, but I was pretending to be this, like, hardcore sports girly because that's what the dude was into. And I am not a sports girly.

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It certainly did not.

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[Raj Panjabi]

Welcome back to Am I doing it wrong?

[Noah Michelson]

Here's a question we got from Amy. She said, do I need to be worried about, quote, unquote, splashback from a public toilet? So I guess she's saying you are using the toilet. Because that's the other thing, too, about squatting is that I would imagine there could be splashing coming up. Or if you're sitting and the bowl isn't totally clean, you're getting splashed by someone else's stuff. She always flushes before she goes, so she has a clean bowl of water awaiting her. So what do you think about splashback?

[Germ Guy]

Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna move from the 80s to the 90s. How many out there have ever watched the show? Ally McBeal.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, I watched it with my parents, but I don't really remember it.

[Germ Guy]

Okay, so there was a character, Peter McNeil, or I think that was his name. He played a character named John, and he had a toilet flusher in his hand, a remote toilet flusher. And this was, like, in season. And the people were talking in this. Cause it was an inclusive bathroom. So everyone could be in the same bathroom at the same time. And while they're talking, all of a sudden, there was a flush, and everyone was like, oh, my goodness. And then when they looked, there was nobody in it. And then he walked in and he showed he had this remote flusher and said, I like a fresh bowl.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay.

[Germ Guy]

So the fact is, is that if you can get a fresh bowl, why not?

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah, Right.

[Germ Guy]

The only thing that I would say, though, is that if you are going to try and do that fresh bowl, then make sure that you kind of get out of the stall for 30 seconds to let whatever was aerosol or the droplets to fall. And then you can go back in and do that. And I actually do this myself. So here's the problem. If it's norovirus or some of the more really troublesome bacteria like E. Coli O1.5.7H7, then you may actually end up getting exposed to a high enough level that it could potentially cause infection.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay.

[Germ Guy]

So if you're gonna go for the CLE or the. For the fresh bowl, make sure that your face is nowhere near that plume.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. And Raj was saying before we started recording that she does that. She does the flush, but she leaves, gets out of the way, and then goes back in.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah, I want to ask about that because is that, you know, decent protocol or should we be using toilet paper to like flush and then just hang around for the, you know, poo plume to take over our lives?

[Germ Guy]

Yeah, okay, So I actually did a video on this with Huff way way back. Must have been like 10 years ago. Essentially I said, as soon as you flush, you get, you hold your breath and you get out of there and you wait for those 30 seconds and it's like everyone just thought it was the most hilarious thing. But then when people were thinking about it, they were going, that's actually the most brilliant idea because then I don't have any risk.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, okay. What about when you're sitting doing your business and you get one of those toilets that's like super trigger happy and it's just flushing while you're still sitting there? Is that a problem? I hate that.

[Raj Panjabi]

Those are terrible. Don't assume I need a flush.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Completely.

[Germ Guy]

Yeah. No, so if you do the sort of the clean flush, then there's not gonna be a problem with that. If, however, you're sitting down and it goes trigger happy on you, then you are going to have some issues because some of the, shall we say, orifices, openings, what would you like to call it, that potentially could lead to infection, are all of a sudden now going to be immersed in whatever those aerosols happen to be.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Germ Guy]

So. So the thing is, if it's a trigger flush, that's one thing. If it's a courtesy flush, it's another, because now you've already deposited, you already know that there's something in there, Right? So what I suggest, and I mean I suggest this for anyone who's going to be sitting down at any given time, take a little bit of toilet paper, fold it up, and then keep it sort of between you and the lid. And then if you know that there's going to be any kind of flushing, courtesy or otherwise, then you can just cover.

[Noah Michelson]

Ah, smart. Interesting.

[Raj Panjabi]

I love that.

[Germ Guy]

I've had people emailing me afterwards saying, you know, it's funny because I remember getting this UTI and I couldn't understand where I got it. And I realized I had done a courtesy flush and I got it like three days later. And now I'm using the toilet paper thing and yeah, I don't seem to have that problem anymore.

[Noah Michelson]

Interesting, interesting.

[Raj Panjabi]

I have to ask, what about the toilet paper that's in these stalls? Right. The bacterias that you're talking about, especially ones that we don't want to go near. Are they on those pieces of toilet paper? Should we unroll a little bit and waste some to, like, get the fresh toilet paper?

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, good question.

[Germ Guy]

I, I, I do that. I, yeah, before I even sit down, I roll a couple of sheets so I'm into the fresh that's been protected, and then I throw that in.

[Raj Panjabi]

That's genius because the first few sheets also look like they've been touched. Like, I don't want people's hand drums on them either.

[Noah Michelson]

And if we. Again, we're talking about the poo plume, those toilet paper dispensers are right next to the toilet, and so they're probably just being hit with, you know, So I like the idea of, you know, just rolling out a little bit.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

And I get a kick out of the people who are like, well, I'll get the one that's furthest away from the toilet because, you know there's going to be less. No, it's six feet.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. The poo plume can go six feet.

[Germ Guy]

No stall is six feet.

[Noah Michelson]

Right. No, I think that, that, that is smart. Most of what you've told us, Jason, every time you've come on the show, is that most germs are not there to hurt us.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Even sweat, even things, even, even poo germs, for the most part, probably, it's gonna be okay. So if you feel comfortable just sitting on a toilet seat after you've wiped it down like I do, go for it. If you want to bring in a disinfectant and you're going to feel better about that, and you're going to always have your wipes, and you want to wipe it down, do that, too.

[Raj Panjabi]

We welcome, you know, everywhere on the paranoia spectrum here.

[Noah Michelson]

Completely.

[Raj Panjabi]

Absolutely.

[Noah Michelson]

Speaking of which, should we be using toilet paper or our feet to actually touch the flusher? If it's not an automatic flusher, should we not touch that with our bare hands?

[Germ Guy]

I probably would not. And the thing is, you can use the toilet paper or you can use your foot. I mean, it's not that big of a deal because what ends up happening is that is going to be one of the germiest places that you're going to touch. And so it's better for you just simply not to touch it. And this is sort of as a result of the fact that whenever your hands touch anything, there's going to be a transfer. And, and as much it may seem weird when you go from the toilet to the sink where you're going to wash your hands, right. You still may end up touching your face because you're coming out of something where there's probably a smell and it may be inadvertent, you may not even realize it, but you may kind of just do this or something like that. All of a sudden, anything that you've touched that's gone under your hands is now in your nose.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Raj Panjabi]

Can I ask what the germiest part of a public bathroom is?

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

If it's not the toilet.

[Germ Guy]

If you think about where you are in sort of a public toilet, right, you start thinking about all the different surfaces that you're going to end up touching. And the fact of the matter is, is that when you sort of swab all of those, then there are two places that end up actually being the germiest simply because of the amount of touch. And it's the hand dryer switch and the soap dispenser.

[Raj Panjabi]

Did not see this coming.

[Noah Michelson]

Interesting.

[Germ Guy]

I know. And the thing is, is that everyone's going to be like, but Jason, you know, we just talked about the toilet seat. Yes, it's germy, but not that germy. Or we just talked about, you know, the stalls or the toilet paper. But the reality is we have in infection prevention control, a term that is called high touch, environmental surface or high teas. And when you get to these places in a public restroom, you have these high tees. And it turns out that the soap dispenser, the hand dryer switch, the taps and the door handles to get in and out of the stalls. Not the actual bathroom itself, but the stalls end up being the germiest of all. And we touch those constantly. And most of the time you have to touch them in order to do the stuff that you want in a public restroom.

[Noah Michelson]

Jason, most of those make sense to me, but not the hand dryer. Because if you've just washed your hands buttons, right, and your hands are wet to touch the hand dryer, why are there still germs on that hand dryer button?

[Germ Guy]

This is unfortunate and I hope I don't get hate mail as a result of it, but most people don't know how to wash their hands.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Oh, I see. It's user failure.

[Germ Guy]

So what ends up happening is people will. They may even put soap on their hands. Most people won't. They'll just wash them underneath. Seinfeld Pappy, look at up. You'll be grossed out. And then if you even use soap, then what you have to do is you have to rub it into your hands, and you either sing Happy Birthday twice or recite the Alphabet backwards, which I still have trouble doing, by the way. Someone literally made me do that live on air. And I'm like, I can't, because it's about 20 seconds that you need to lather up, and then you rinse everything off. And then what ends up happening is you've got about 99, 9.9% of the germs removed. They're now in the sink. But most people don't do that. And so as a result, they're only removing about 50%. And that other 50% is now easy to be transferred to something like the hand dryer or any type of dispenser that you're touching.

[Raj Panjabi]

You know, it used to be all fun and games for me. Before COVID I always use soap, but I think there was user error with me because I wasn't doing it for long enough. I would just, like, rub the soap around my hand. Didn't do the backs of my hands. Didn't do my nails. Like, and after Covid, I was like, oh, doing a surgical scrub, like, all the way up to the elbows. Like, it just is what it is now. And I'm. I hate that Covid happened. Obviously horrifying. But I think many of us are a little more conscious of these things completely.

[Noah Michelson]

And I will say I judge people. If I see someone in the bathroom and they don't wash their hands, even for men, like, even if you were just peeing, I'm just like, just wash your hands.

[Raj Panjabi]

Of course, my most judgmental self comes out in those moments. I'm just like, nah, you're putting all of us at risk.

[Noah Michelson]

Also very cavalier. When you see someone else there and you even decide, like, you don't even feel shamed into doing it.

[Raj Panjabi]

It's insane.

[Noah Michelson]

Like, I just feel like you would at least pretend to do it because someone else is there, especially, like, at work, and you're going to see them all the time. You're like, oh, Jimmy, you know, and down the way, he doesn't wash his hands every. Like, that's gross.

[Raj Panjabi]

I know.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

The problem, of course, is that when we talk about hygiene and we're sort of growing up, we're taught a whole bunch of different things, and then sort of we get into this rebellious phase where it's like, well, I'm not going to do that or I'm not going to. And then it becomes sort of your natural pattern. And so you've got to teach people to lose that natural Pattern and gain a new natural pattern. And I still have people saying to me, jason, I'm never washing my hands. I don't care. I'm never going to get sick. I'm like, okay, sure. I mean, I can't make you wash your hands. It's just that simple. But what I can do is advise other people that you might be in that bathroom. So maybe they should be washing their hands and not touching certain things.

[Raj Panjabi]

I think we should have bouncers in the bathroom.

[Noah Michelson]

Yes.

[Raj Panjabi]

Okay.

[Noah Michelson]

Enforcers. I love that.

[Germ Guy]

I forgot to tell you about that.

[Noah Michelson]

Yes.

[Germ Guy]

So there was a study that was done at a conference, an infection prevention control conference. And what I found absolutely hilarious was that we put basically somebody in one of the bathrooms and he would. It was just a porter. Right, Right. The person had nothing to do with hygiene. But people like. It was something like 83% of the people washed their hands as a result of the fact that the porter was there.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

But when you didn't have a port, it went down to something like 17%.

[Raj Panjabi]

I totally believe that. Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

So just having an actual individual in the bathroom increases hygiene as a result of the peer pressure effect.

[Noah Michelson]

What if. I'm sure you guys have both seen this happen. You get to the. You use the bathroom, you get to the sink, and there's no soap or the dispenser's out of soap.

[Germ Guy]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

It's just washing with water going to do anything or what do we do in that situation?

[Raj Panjabi]

My guess is no, Jason.

[Germ Guy]

So water is going to remove. If you water with friction.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

You're going to remove about 80% of the microbes.

[Raj Panjabi]

That's crazy.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay.

[Raj Panjabi]

That's crazy to me.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay. Crazy because you thought it would be more or less.

[Raj Panjabi]

No, less. I thought water does nothing but, like, maybe throw a party for the germs. Yeah, yeah.

[Germ Guy]

So the thing is about transient microbes is that they're not really attached to your skin. They're attached to the oils and sort of other things that are on your skin. So when you put water on that, you know, water is the universal solvent. It's going to help to remove that, and then you add some friction along with it, and that's going to essentially slap everything off. Off. The problem is that that 20% that's still remaining is still alive.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Germ Guy]

So hand washing is going to get you to that 99 to 99.9%. That's really what you're looking for. But then the hand sanitizer is really the 99.9%. And back in 2010. We were having this argument with the World Health Organization. Is it better to not wash your hands if there's no soap and use a hand sanitizer, or is it better to use water and get that amount off, wait for it to dry, and then try and use a hand sanitizer afterwards? And what we found was, believe it or not, it was actually better not to wash your hands and just use a hand sanitizer. And then when you find soap around, then wash your hands.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah, okay, I'll take that.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay.

[Germ Guy]

Yeah, it was. It was so fascinating, too, because, like, the arguments that we had about this, and I mean, this was all just policy, but, you know, we were literally talking about how if you were in a situation where you had blood on your hands or you had, you know, fecal matter on your hands, you'd want to use water to get them off, but that would sort of make the hand sanitizer afterwards ineffective.

[Raj Panjabi]

Right.

[Germ Guy]

So you would. You would want to use the hand sanitizer first, kill everything, and then wash off all. Like, it was just completely backwards to what we were thinking.

[Noah Michelson]

Why does the water make the hand sanitizer ineffective? I think I missed that.

[Germ Guy]

Because you need. Because the hand sanitizer has to be between 62 and 70% in order to work. And what ends up happening is that you wash your hands and you're gonna have water, residual water on your hands.

[Raj Panjabi]

You're gonna dilute it, and then you.

[Germ Guy]

Add the alcohol and it dilutes it.

[Noah Michelson]

Got it. Tricky.

[Raj Panjabi]

I know. It's wild.

[Germ Guy]

Yeah. And it's funny because the people who make one of the most popular hand sanitizers out there will actually say, do not wash your hands first. Only use a hand sanitizer. And that's the reason.

[Noah Michelson]

Learning so much today. Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This episode is sponsored by hers.

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[Raj Panjabi]

Welcome back to Am I Doing It Wrong?

[Noah Michelson]

Here's I feel like an age old question which gets your hand hands cleaner? Keeps them cleaner? Is it the paper towel to dry your hands or is it the air.

[Germ Guy]

Dryer yeah, this is, Sorry, this reminds me of a study that was done like about a decade ago. They wanted to see whether or not a hand dryer was going to spread germs to people.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Germ Guy]

And so what they did is they took billions and billions of a harmless virus and they put it on people's hands. Now this is something that I used to do in the laboratory. It's perfectly safe and we would always get the ethics approval and stuff like that, so no harm possible to anybody. So they put those billions and billions of viruses on the hands, then they got the people to wash their hands and then use a hand dryer just like they normally would. And they did find viruses in the hundreds. Okay, so you went from billions to hundreds. And of course the question was, well, Jason, where did all those germs go? Go? They're in the sink.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Germ Guy]

Because you washed your hands. And if you wash your hands properly, then you're going to have almost minimal to no microbes on your hands. So as a result of that, the hand dryer is not going to do much. Now the problem is, as we just talked about, people don't wash their hands properly. So you end up having the risk of people spreading aerosols around because now with the drier effect, it's going to turn those droplets into aerosols that's going to spread around and you're going to be spreading whatever it is that they forgot or didn't manage to wipe off due to user error. So in that sense, the hand dryer could potentially be a source of spread. Whereas a paper towel is what we like to call very small, self limiting. Everything goes into the towel and then you throw the towel away. So in that sense, the paper towel makes more sense from a hygiene perspective. Now something that you said earlier is a lot of microbes that we work with or that we come into contact with have absolutely nothing to do with, with pathogenesis or that they just don't want to cause us any harm.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Germ Guy]

So the reality is if you're just in a normal washroom or something along those lines, doesn't matter. Hand dryer or paper towel is going to be fine.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

If you're in a hospital, if you're in a place where there are immune compromised individuals, like a long term care facility, or if you happen to be in an airport, and I keep stressing this to people, airports are like emergency rooms. You have no idea what the health status of these people happens to be, then I would really recommend that you think about putting paper towels in There to minimize the chance of infection spread.

[Noah Michelson]

Right.

[Raj Panjabi]

Okay. So we're gonna start rapid firing a little because we have so many things to ask. Say we have luggage or a purse or something like that. Where are we putting that when we go into the public restroom? I never put anything on the floor. Cause the floor freaks me out. So, like, hang it somewhere. Is that what we're supposed to be doing? I'm sure there's still stuff that gets on it.

[Germ Guy]

Yeah. So when you talk about the floor, the biggest issue with the floor happens to be the dust. And I mean, dust is gonna highly contaminated. However, it's usually contaminated with environmental microbes. So you can put your stuff onto the floor. You can also hang it up onto the stall. That's not a problem. But again, if you have a fairly large bag or something like that that you're putting up on the stall, you're going to once again, be doing your Cirque du toilet. Because you've got to figure out how you're going to grab that and get out of there while the toilet's flushing so you don't come into contact. So, you know, make sure that you have a plan of action before you sit down. I know this is going to sound really silly, but it's so true. It happens to me all the time because I carry a really big knapsack and put that up there. And I practice how I'm going to get out of the stall so that as soon as that toilet's flushed, I am out of there and I've got no worries at all.

[Raj Panjabi]

I'm just start peeing with the door open.

[Noah Michelson]

Just like run completely. Completely.

[Germ Guy]

Oh, yeah. It would make things just so much easier. But the other thing is that if you're talking about luggage, right, if it's going to end up being on the floor, then the only thing that I would recommend is that when you get to your destination, don't put it on the floor.

[Noah Michelson]

The bed.

[Germ Guy]

Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi]

God, yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, that's smart.

[Raj Panjabi]

Smart.

[Noah Michelson]

What about opening the door to the bathroom? Should we be using a paper towel or something? I always do now. I just. When I dry my hands, I just use that same paper towel to open the door and throw it away on the way out.

[Germ Guy]

You know what? I think that's really become sort of the common sense now. A lot of people tend to do this. And when I've recommended this, usually people put up their hands and say, well, we already do this, so that's pretty cool. The. The door leading out of the bathroom is not that Bad. Oh, okay. It's the stalls that are really the. So you want to use the paper towel to get out of the stall with. Yeah. Or I don't do that.

[Noah Michelson]

That's what I don't do. I don't use something to get out. Well, then I think I'm using. I'm going to go wash my hands.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

And I do do a good job.

[Germ Guy]

Exactly.

[Noah Michelson]

I love those doors now. Like they have them at Alamo Theaters here.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Where you can open it with your foot. There's like a little thing. Yeah. That you just sort of like pull it out with your foot.

[Raj Panjabi]

I love that. The Whole Foods do they smart.

[Noah Michelson]

Just make it easy.

[Germ Guy]

Those are always the best. Because then it's essentially a non touch system. I mean, I've been sort of trying to promote non touch for like 20 some odd years.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

And we now have non touch sinks or taps, I should say, which is awesome because then you have to. Don't have to worry about the taps. You know, no touch hand dryers, if they happen to be there. No touch paper towel dispensers, no touch doors. I mean, we're getting to a point where we can make sort of the only thing that you really are touching is yourself.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Germ Guy]

I don't mean that in a bad way either.

[Noah Michelson]

Or a good way.

[Germ Guy]

When you're in the bathroom. Yeah, I know. I just, I'm like, oh, that's one of those moments where you're like, oops. But anyway. And in that sense, there's really a lack of any opportunity for microbes to be transferred between people, which is fantastic. But by the same respect, if you are going to be touching things, just make sure that you realize, you know, those sink taps, those hand dryer dispensers, the soap dispensers and the door leading in and out of the stalls, as well as, you know, the bathroom itself are the places that you should be really thinking about.

[Noah Michelson]

I remember being really stoned a couple years ago and I had one of those stoned thoughts and I put it on Twitter and I was like, why don't we have toilet flushers that are just pedals by the floor?

[Raj Panjabi]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Kind of like a gas pedal on a car.

[Raj Panjabi]

You need to shark tank then, you.

[Noah Michelson]

Know, and all these people came back on Twitter and they're like, oh, they have them in other countries. Other countries have these foot pedals. And I was like, we need those here. That's so smart.

[Raj Panjabi]

We are not the leaders. I don't know who put this idea in our head, but no it is not about it.

[Noah Michelson]

Especially when it comes to poo related things. We're not doing it right. Japan has those toilets that like sing to you and, you know, wipe your butt for you.

[Raj Panjabi]

America's not doing toilets right now.

[Noah Michelson]

I want to ask this one really quickly. Chris asked, how bad is it to bring your drink cup from the movie theater into the bathroom? What else are you supposed to do with it? It seems like a drink is covered, but I've seen people bring popcorn in.

[Raj Panjabi]

I mean, also, here's the other thing just to add. Think you're at a club or a bar where you can't leave your alcoholic beverage outside. I have brought that in there. That is so gross.

[Noah Michelson]

It seems gross. What are your thoughts about food in the bathroom?

[Germ Guy]

Well, okay, so the drinks not really a big issue because you either have a lid with a straw or you've essentially got a long neck. Right. Where it gets a bit more troublesome is if you are bringing something in there where there is no lid. And this is more in bars and stuff like that because you get the drink but you don't have the ability to have a lid over time. Top of it. I would not put it near the sink because as much as we talk about poo plumes from the toilet, there are also going to be plumes coming from the sink itself from people using the water and then people doing the. I am a surgeon, let me wash dry my hands by shaking them.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, God.

[Germ Guy]

Right, yeah. That's the easiest way to contaminate a drink. So I would definitely not recommend putting it there. Now, in some of the bars that I've been in, they have mantelpieces above the urinal so you can put your beer or whatever there. I mean, that would be a fantastic. Whether it be in a stall or whether it be in front of the urinals. But the thing is, is, and I know it's going to sound gross, but logistically speaking, it's probably the best option. Putting it on the floor right in front of you is probably the best thing to do because it's going to be protected. Any plumes that are coming will come from outside onto the stalls. It's not going to go down onto the floor and then mysteriously come up underneath, right?

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, yeah.

[Germ Guy]

Plumes don't work that way. So putting it right in front of you in the stall is probably the safest place for you to put it. And then you can sort of transfer it from there wherever you want. The really hard part is when you go to wash your hands Afterwards, where are you going to put it? And again, what might be the best option is just putting it in between your feet so that there's no opportunity for any of the plumes or droplets to get into it.

[Noah Michelson]

I'm having a cold sweat just thinking about this.

[Raj Panjabi]

No, and it's very.

[Noah Michelson]

I want to say this is my advice. And I'm not a microbiologist like, Jason. If there's any way for you not to bring it into the bathroom, get it, order it after you've gone, I.

[Raj Panjabi]

Don'T know, drink your drink, finish it up. Yeah, no, I don't like that one.

[Germ Guy]

Oh, yeah. And I mean, that obviously is the best option, but if someone says to me, hey, Jason, I've got a half full beer here, what am I going to do? Well, either chug it and hold or, you know, put it right in front of you.

[Noah Michelson]

Jason, I always love having you on. I also always hate having you on because it's so gross. Thank you for being here. This has been, I guess, enlightening.

[Raj Panjabi]

No, we love it. We love to hear it. We need the reminders. And this was so much fun, Jason.

[Germ Guy]

Oh, my goodness. I have so much fun talking with you about this because where I come from, this is stuff that we wish people would understand all the time, but it's so dry and it's so boring most of the time, and you make it so much fun. And what I've learned is that people, when they hear this, they come to me and they're like, yes. And they have comments and they have questions and they have suggestions and it's so cool because we get the feedback and I want to thank all the listeners who are out there because this series is just so much fun for me to do, but it's also so enriching and rewarding, so I'm really thankful.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, we're so.

[Noah Michelson]

Our pleasure. Until next time, take care and we'll talk to you very soon.

[Germ Guy]

Sounds perfect. Thank you so much.

[Noah Michelson]

It's time for Better in Five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode.

[Raj Panjabi]

Number one, restrooms are just spilling over with germs, but they're not usually the ones that make you sick. So don't be scared.

[Noah Michelson]

Number two. Two toilet seats really aren't the enemy, but disinfectant wipes are your best friend.

[Raj Panjabi]

Yep. Number three, do not trust handles, doors, dispensers, dryers. They are all actually germier than the toilet seat.

[Noah Michelson]

Number four, to avoid the dreaded poo plume flush and get out of there as quickly as possible, the infamous poo plume.

[Raj Panjabi]

And number five, do not half ass your hand was use soap and spend at least 20 seconds lathering up. Think a verse of Mariah Carey's Always Be My baby. Okay, Noah, So have you been doing public restrooms wrong?

[Noah Michelson]

See, I didn't think I had been. I was worried I had been, like, overly cautious. But after hearing everything Jason said, I'm definitely not doing the patented Raj trademark flush and run. Like, I flush and I'm still hanging out and they're putting my jacket on or whatever.

[Raj Panjabi]

Do not loiter in there.

[Noah Michelson]

So I need to stop. It's every time we do an episode like this and I hear about the poo plume again, I just think that is a terror. It's like poltergeist. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want the poo plume in my life.

[Raj Panjabi]

Poltergeist.

[Noah Michelson]

Yes. What about you? Have you been doing it wrong?

[Raj Panjabi]

Of course I've been doing it wrong. Like, I feel like I love the flush and run and that's good, but that's like one of 10 things I should be doing. I'm not as scared of the handles as I should be. I happily just, like, you know, rub myself all over the handles of things and I need to. I need to be more careful. Especially because he said they're germier than the toilets.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, that innocent hand dryer handle that we don't think ever about.

[Raj Panjabi]

Oh, my God, she's the worst.

[Noah Michelson]

She is disgusting. Get out of our lives. Gross hand dryer handle. Anyway, until next time. As long as there are things to get wrong and hopefully the next one will be not quite as gross, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.

[Raj Panjabi]

Love y'all.

[Noah Michelson]

Do you have something you think think you're doing wrong? Email [e-mail] and let us know.

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My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for Career Day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

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