The Secret To Making Friends As An Adult

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Am I Doing It Wrong?

Episode: The Secret To Making Friends As An Adult
Hosts: Raj Punjabi-Johnson & Noah Michelson
Guest: Dr. Marisa Franco, Psychologist & Author of Platonic
Date: January 1, 2026

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Overview

This episode delves into the challenge of making and maintaining friendships as adults—a subject the hosts reveal is their most requested topic. With the help of Dr. Marisa Franco, a psychologist and author of Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends, the discussion explores the loneliness epidemic, why building adult friendships is so uniquely difficult, and actionable tips for forging and deepening connections. The tone is honest and relatable, mixing research with personal anecdotes, and the conversation is punctuated with vulnerability, humor, and practical insights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Loneliness Epidemic and Its Disproportionate Impact

[06:00]

• Stats: Since the early 2000s, four times as many people report having no friends, with men particularly affected (five times increase).
• Who’s Most Affected: Marginalized populations—Black, Hispanic, non-college-educated, lower income, people with disabilities—experience sharper declines in face-to-face interaction.
• Technology’s Role: Technology (starting with TV in the 1950s, now smartphones) has shifted leisure time from communal to solo, increasing loneliness.

  "Before the tv, people spent their leisure time around other people. Then they spend it in their four walls." - Dr. Franco [06:41]

2. Why Friendships Matter for Health & Well-being

[08:59]

• Physical & Mental Health: Meaningful friendships release oxytocin (“the fountain of youth”), and having a large, diverse social network increases longevity more than diet and exercise combined.
• Doctors Miss This: Physicians ask about habits like exercise and smoking, but not about friendship—despite its major impact on health.
• Connection Reduces Stress: Even basic health responses (cold immunity, vaccine effectiveness) are improved by social bonds.

  "When we're disconnected, it activates the stress system in our bodies." – Dr. Franco [09:45]

3. Why Making Friends as an Adult Is Difficult

[10:22]

• Childhood vs. Adulthood: Children have built-in structures—repeated, unplanned interaction and shared vulnerability (school, recess)—that organically foster friendship.
• Adult Life: Lacks these natural environments, especially as workplaces become less social or remote.
• Effort is Essential: “The more people thought friendship happened without effort, the more lonely they were years later.” – Dr. Franco [11:21]
• Intentionality Required: Adult friendships demand proactive effort, not passivity.

4. Practical Strategies for Making Friends

[11:59]-[14:05]

• Reconnect: Reaching out to old contacts pays off ("you already have trust established").

  "Every seven years, we lose about half our friends...not because we hate each other...just life happens." – Dr. Franco [12:00]

• Mere Exposure Effect: Repetition builds closeness; join recurring groups instead of one-off events.

  "Research finds it's a 20% difference between people you're not exposed to and people you are exposed to and how much you like them, even if you haven't interacted with them." – Dr. Franco [13:18]

• Avoid Covert Avoidance: Being physically present is not enough; engage mentally and emotionally.
• How to Approach: Use the “insight and question” method: comment on a shared circumstance, then ask a follow-up (e.g., “First time here—have you all been?”).

5. Deepening and Maintaining Friendships

[21:52]

• Repotting Relationships: Deepen bonds by changing the interaction context (move from work/book club to dinner, etc.).

  "Otherwise, if the book club ends, our friendship ends." – Dr. Franco [21:55]

• Vulnerability: Essential for intimacy, especially challenging for straight men due to socialization; someone has to “go first” in showing emotional openness.

  “For friendship to happen, someone has to be brave. So be brave.” – Dr. Franco quoting her niece [38:10]

• Appointments Matter: Regular meet-ups or ‘friend appointments’ help prioritize friendship in busy lives.

  “I love it. Especially people that live in big cities…It's a way to say, I prioritize.” – Dr. Franco [26:59]

6. Reciprocity & Navigating Friend Dynamics

[31:08]

• Listener Question: What if you’re the only one making plans?
  • Sometimes, the other person is anxious or afraid, not disinterested.
  • Address gently and honestly; understand people are on different timelines.
• Categories of Friends: “Good company” vs. “good friends”—the latter should show up for each other reliably and intentionally.

  “Even if you really like someone, that might not be enough to build a friendship with them. They have to be willing, just like you are, to be a good friend in the connection too.” – Dr. Franco [34:56]

7. Digital vs. In-Person Friendships

[36:49]

• Online Friends: Valid, but in-person connection is irreplaceable for mental and physical well-being.

  “I wouldn’t say that online friendships don’t matter... What would be the issue is when you’re displacing in-person interaction with just online.” – Dr. Franco [37:07]

• Best Use of Technology: As a bridge to real-life interactions, not a replacement.

  “Use it as a bridge...to connect in person.” – Dr. Franco [41:12]

8. Phone Culture and Embracing Discomfort

[38:43]

• Phones as Crutches: Reliance on phones reduces connection and comfort with social discomfort.
• Growth Through Discomfort: Building friendships means tolerating the unease of early interactions.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Raj: “I know that when I hang out with my girlies, I come away feeling like I just took some kind of drug. Like, I feel so good.” [08:32]
• Dr. Franco: “When we feel connected, we release oxytocin...having a large, diverse social network increases our longevity more than exercise and diet almost combined.” [08:59]
• Noah: “It’s not just hard for men to be vulnerable, but we’re also living in a climate...where there are all these things baked into our culture that makes it really hard for people to also want to open up.” [25:53]
• Dr. Franco: “The only way you’ll know is if you actually try it...if you never test that assumption, you can never change that assumption.” [28:12]
• Dr. Franco’s niece: “For friendship to happen, someone has to be brave.” [38:10]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Loneliness epidemic & tech's role: [06:00] – [08:10]
• Friendship & Health: [08:59] – [10:01]
• Why it’s hard to make friends as an adult: [10:22] – [11:21]
• How to make friends (strategies): [11:59] – [14:05]
• Digital friendships & using tech wisely: [36:49] – [41:12]
• Vulnerability and men’s friendships: [23:02] – [25:53]
• Listener question: One-sided initiation: [31:08] – [32:56]
• Difference between “good company” and “good friends”: [33:47] – [34:56]
• Dr. Franco’s parting advice (“be brave”): [38:10]

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Better in Five: Top Takeaways

([42:43] – [43:29])

1. Repetition is Key: Familiarity breeds comfort—recurring encounters create bonds.
2. Level Up: Deepen friendships by meeting in new contexts.
3. Tech as a Bridge: Use technology to facilitate, not replace, in-person connection.
4. Invest and Show Up: “Good company” isn’t enough—reliable presence and effort matter.
5. Be Brave: Someone has to take the first step. Vulnerability is essential.

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Final Reflections

The episode closes with the reminder that adult friendships require intentionality, open communication, and bravery—even if it’s uncomfortable. The digital age creates obstacles but also valuable opportunities. And, as Dr. Franco notes, taking risks and truly showing up (in all senses) will almost always be worth it.

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“It’s hard out there... the more people we have who are rooting us on that we can root on, I think the healthier we’re going to be in so many ways.”
— Noah Michelson [44:29]

Transcript

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[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Foreign.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi Johnson, head of identity content at HuffPost.

[Noah Michelson]

And I'm Noah Michelson, head of HuffPost Personal.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Welcome back to Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.

[Noah Michelson]

Raj, we are back. It has been almost a year with a vengeance. I think some people thought we were just like cryogenically frozen and have just been like sleeping in pods somewhere. But we haven't been.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I mean, sometimes.

[Noah Michelson]

Sometimes. But we've been living a full life and doing a lot of stuff wrong.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

So many things wrong. I need this free medical advice.

[Noah Michelson]

You're gonna get some. And I think people will notice that. We have a new theme song. We have some new graphics. Maybe you're watching us on YouTube, which has never happened before.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's exciting.

[Noah Michelson]

People can go to the HuffPost channel on YouTube and they can find us there. But we're really happy to be here and we want to say thank you too, to everyone who's emailed us in the last year and said, are you coming back? Where are you giving us show ideas? We have so many exciting shows coming up and we're really, really happy to be back. So thank you. If you're new, we're happy you're here.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Email us.

[Noah Michelson]

We hope you enjoy it. Yeah, you can email [e-mail] but yeah, we just really felt like it was time to come back, do some more episodes, learn some new things, and we have an exciting first episode for people.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

We do.

[Noah Michelson]

Let's get right into it. Do you think that you are making friends as an adult? Wrong.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Okay, this is a little humble brag, but I actually think I'm great at making friends as an adult.

[Noah Michelson]

You are.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I'm. Thank you. I'm. I'm real social, especially with certain demographics. The, the she's, they's and gays. I love to Kiki when I'm out, even in the grocery store line, et cetera. But how do we turn that Kiki into like a solid, satisfying friendship? I would like to dive into that more and how to be a better friend.

[Noah Michelson]

You are not alone. This is probably the number one requested episode that We've had people emailing and being like. We did an episode on, like, strengthening friendships. So they're like, how the hell do I get a friend when I'm an adult? I'm not maybe working in an office anymore. Or maybe I was never working in an office. I'm not in school. Do I have to join a book club? And those are valid questions.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

So who do we have to help fix this conundrum?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Oh, she's going to get our whole lives. We have Dr. Marissa Franco, a psychologist, professor at the University of Maryland, and the author of Platonic how the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends.

[Noah Michelson]

Friend us up, Dr. Franco.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Dr. Franco, thank you so much for being here with us today.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Of course. Okay, so we are gonna start talking a little about the loneliness epidemic and how everyone feels so isolated. I hate to be broad, but it's true. It's a big problem. We had a whole episode on loneliness. So can you tell us, first of all, some statistics and data and observations about not having friends or wanting friends and which groups are kind of feeling it the most?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. So from like the early 2000s to now, four times as many people have no friends, five times as many men specifically. And when you see the decreases in face to face interaction, there are certain groups that the decrease has been more stark. And so that's black people, Hispanic people, people that don't have college degrees, people that are more low income, people with disabilities. For a lot of populations that are already marginalized, the loneliness epidemic can hit them more hard.

[Noah Michelson]

Why is it? I mean, I'm guessing it is because technology is obviously our best friend and also our worst enemy. But why in the last 20 years specifically are we seeing people grow further apart?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, so it's actually not from last 20 years, but more precipitous in the last 20 years. So it really started in the 50s. Great book. Bowling Alone. Robert Putnam. And he was looking at why are people divesting from civic life starting in the 50s? And what he found was the most compelling reason was the televisions. So before the tv, people spent their leisure time around other people. Then they spend it in their four walls. And then you can see how with the creation of smartphones, 2012 was when we saw such an increase again in loneliness. That is when the smartphone became more widely used. And that's affecting us in many different ways. Like instead of people spending their leisure time around other people, they have this other option that offers Them. Parasocial interactions where they feel connected, but it's kind of like a snack instead, instead of a meal of conviction.

[Noah Michelson]

You know, that's so funny, because when I was in college, which was in the late 90s, I'm an old, old man.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

You look great.

[Noah Michelson]

We didn't have cell phones yet, and we definitely didn't have smartphones yet. And my best friend Kate and I, every Friday night, we would order a pizza and go to the laundry room and do our laundry together and play cards. And you again, you weren't always tethered to this object where you were, like, playing a game or checking your Instagram. You were actually connecting with people. And you're absolutely right. Like, we don't do that. Even on the subway, you look around, there's not a chance to meet someone because everyone has their headphones in. I do. And they're on their phone.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. And there's an interesting study that found that simply having a phone on the table decreases the quality of the conversation. And both people don't say it does, but it doesn't have to be your phone. And by the end of the conversation, you're not. There's not as much depth, there's not as much vulnerability.

[Noah Michelson]

So even if you're not using it.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Or looking at it, it's literally just there. It's like part of your brain is like, oh, my God, the phone's there.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Wow.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I am actually so excited for this episode because I know that when I hang out with my girlies, I come away feeling like I took some kind of drug. Like, I feel so good. It, like, fills me up, really. And I'm wondering if you can tell me what that is. Like, why are friendships, like, meaningful? Authenticity friendships. Not the kind where you're like, oh, I gotta hang out with this person again. Because it's like, you know, whatever. Like, why are they so important? How do they affect us?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, that's a great question. Well, when we feel connected, we release oxytocin. Oxytocin makes us happy, but it's also considered the fountain of youth. And that is why, for example, when we look at, like, how much our diet affects our longevity, exercise affects our longevity, having a large, diverse social network increases our longevity more than both those things almost combined. And so the effects of connection in our lives, we talked about. I just before we started talking, we talked about working out and protein and, like, I think, like, in our society, we have a focus on so many different health aspects of health that are important, but social connection should be at the top of our list.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

That's such a good point. Because when you go to the doctor, they ask, do you work out? Are you smoking? They never say, like, how many friends do you have? Exactly how much time are you spending with other people?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yep.

[Noah Michelson]

And they probably should be.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

They should be. Because even the common cold, you're more susceptible to it if you're lonely. Vaccines are more effective if you're more connected. Literally everything. Because when we're disconnected, it activates the stress system in our bodies, which makes us more vulnerable physically, mentally, to pretty much everything.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah. Now, knowing that, I have to say that a lot of people asked us to do this episode.

[Noah Michelson]

I think it's our number one most requested episode.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And that's beautiful to me. It's sad at the same time because we're like, oh, my God, we're not getting enough connection. But it's also, people want these meaningful friendships, and they're like, how do I get it? So why is it really hard to make friends as an adult?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. So there's the sociologist I really like, Rebecca G. Adams. And she says when you're a child, you tend to have these ingredients for friendship to happen organically, and that is repeated, unplanned interaction. So I see you regularly. We didn't plan it like work, like school, but then also shared vulnerability. So in school, that's recess, that's lunch, that's extracurriculars. But in the adult world, we often don't have that shared vulnerability piece, especially in the workplace. And so what that means is if you are relying on the same set of assumptions as how to make friends when you were kids, that it's just gonna happen. Right. You're going to end up lonely. And this is supported by one study that found that the more people thought friendship happened without effort, the more lonely they were years later. Whereas the more people saw it as taking an effort, the less lonely they were because they made that effort to make friends. So friendship does not happen organically. You can't just hope for friends and then expect that they'll come into your life. It is very effortful and intuitive, Intentional. In modern society.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's beautiful to kind of just recognize that.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, I think it's the same idea, like trying to get a job, but someone's not gonna knock on your door and say, here's a job you have to put the work in.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Or even like romantic partnerships. You know that about that. There's so many apps. Right. But not friendship for some reason.

[Noah Michelson]

So where is a Good place to start looking for friends. I think people always say, join a book club, Join a jogging club. But beyond that, what would you suggest?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Before you even answer, I'm reminded of my favorite movie, I Love youe Man. And we'll talk about, like, straight men in friendships. But, like, his approach to finding friends was so funny. Like, yeah, so tell us what we should really be doing.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. So probably the first thing I would suggest, the lowest hanging fruit, is to reconnect with people that you've fallen out of touch with. Research finds that every seven years, we lose about half our friends. And that is not because we hate each other. There's conflict. It's just. Life happens, right? So the first thing I would say is, is there someone you were texting? You could scroll through your text this time last year that you can say, hey, how have you been? It's been a while. Like, I've been meaning to reach out. Or, you know, I was just thinking about that time we did X, Y and Z. Like, how have you been. So reconnecting is powerful because you already have trust established and because research finds when you reconnect, you underestimate just how much people value it. So sometimes you think, oh, they've already moved on. You know, people tend to be very happy to receive that reach out. Now, the second reason, I think I'm just going to explain the science behind the jogging and biking. So sometimes when people want to make friends, they'll go to, like, one single networking event. That's not something I particularly recommend. It can be helpful, but you have to engage in something more repeated over time. Like I said with Rebecca G. Adams, and that capitalizes on something called mere exposure, which is our tendency to like people we are more familiar with. So if I see you repeatedly, even if we don't interact, I tend to like you more, you tend to like me more. And that's why it can be helpful. Running club, I see you three, three different times, and then we're establishing a connection.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

It's kind of a trust thing happening too.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, exactly. It makes sense, right? If someone's more familiar to you, you like. And the research has find it's a 20% difference between people you're not exposed to and people you are exposed to and how much you like them, even if you haven't interacted with them.

[Noah Michelson]

Wow.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

The other thing that I want to mention is we go to these events to try to meet people. We overcome something called overt avoidance, which is our tendency to not show up because we're afraid of people. But you also have to overcome covert avoidance, which is our tendency to show up physically but check out mentally. We're on our phone, we're in the corner. We're not talking to anyone.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's right.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

So if I go to the event, I want to interact with someone and say, hey, my name's Marissa. How have you enjoyed the this, Lee? Have you been here before? What's it like? Right. I have to overcome that by engaging with people. And if I find someone I like, I just say, oh, I really enjoyed talking to you. I'd love to exchange contact information and then follow up.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I love that.

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[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

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[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Go for all kinds of things I love.

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[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I have to say that, you know, before I ask this next question, that I have met one of my best girlfriends, Chrissy, at the bar. Like when I was living in New Orleans and we had a couple of margaritas in us and we're kikiing, and then we actually, she, you know, was a bridesmaid. I was her bridesmaid. Like, super close friends. I know we talk about these wholesome ways of meeting people. Are there places we shouldn't necessarily be meeting? People and maybe talk a little bit like, bonding over vices. Not that a couple of margaritas is bad for you ever.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Places we shouldn't. I don't know if I can say there's places we shouldn't. Okay.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That makes me happy.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

But I think, you know, obviously there's. I'm very pro. Connecting with people at work because the benefits for, like, your happiness, your retention, your performance even, are so high.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

But I will say that they're a little riskier. Right. If the friendship doesn't work out, and then you have to see them every day. You can't avoid them. And so for some people, maybe they want to make friends at work, but not get as vulnerable as their friends from outside of work. And I understand that, you know, this.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Makes me think of, like, that's why you might not want to date someone at work.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Exactly.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And it makes me realize that friendships are often as intimate as, like, relationships. We need to start paying attention to them in a similar way.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I agree. And I also think people don't see your skill sets as transferable between romantic partnerships.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And they totally are.

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They are.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Right. Like, you have to work through conflict, like, with your romantic partner. That's something you can do with your friends instead of just withdrawing from them when you're upset with them.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. Also, the friends I have, I've had some of them for 20, 25 years. I don't talk to boyfriends that I was dating 20 years ago. These people are gonna more likely be with you for longer parts of your life.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Exactly.

[Noah Michelson]

And that's a big deal. You know? What are your thoughts on apps for finding friends? Like, I know. I think it's on Bumble. Maybe you can do, like, Bumble for friends.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Do you think that those are good places to look for people?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I feel two things. So I think that it is harder. You don't have that mere exposure. Right, Right. So on the apps, it's just, you're gonna have to make more of an effort. People aren't gonna be as responsive than if you meet someone in person who has more exposure to you and a sense of. You have a sense of how much you connect and stuff. But what is nice about the apps is that it's a pool of people that are available and invested in connection. And so when you meet people in daily life, it's like, oh, maybe they just have young kids, or maybe they already feel like they have their group. And so there's that rejection that can come with that, that these people haven't necessarily marked themselves as available. And so I, I would say try it, but just don't make it your only strategy.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, that's smart. But you're right, everyone is showing up there from the jump because they're also looking for friends. And so that barrier to entry isn't there where if you're with a random stranger somewhere who might not be into it.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Exactly, exactly.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

So say that we are in a place where we could potentially make friends. What do we do? Are there pickup lines? Am I, I have pickup lines. One of my besties is always like, what's your name? Which is like the cutest, most kindergarten thing ever. But like, but what do you do? What are we doing if you're like friend material?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Well, I think first it's about mindset. And let me share the research behind the mindset because I can feel kind of fluffy. When strangers interact across a number of settings, at school, in the lab, in the community, they tend underestimate how liked they are. This is called the liking gap. And the more self critical you are, the more pronounced this gap is. And so often we're like, they're going to think I'm weird. This isn't going to go well, they're going to be closed off, I'm going to feel rejected, I'm not going to enjoy this. And what we see in the research is that doesn't actually pan out when you actually engage in the act. There's another study on talking to strangers that found that people thought 40% of the time strangers would talk to them. It was closer to 90% of the time. So people are much more open than you think. That's something to keep in mind. And I tell people assume that people will like you based on that. That's based on research on something called the acceptance prophecy. This finding that when people are told they'll be liked, they become friendlier, warmer, more open. Whereas when you think people reject you, you're actually rejecting people. You're creating that cycle. Right. You're more closed off, you're not engaging them, you're not asking things, you're in the corner. Right. And so that is just really important from the get go. I would say one method that I like for introducing yourself to someone new is called the insight and the question method. And that involves sharing an insight about your shared circumstances. Like, oh wow, like this is my first time at this podcast studio. I really like it. Like, have you all been here before? And then a follow up question that offers them the opportunity to engage. And women do this all the Time when they say, oh, my God, I love your scarf. Where did you get it? Right. That's an example of an insight in question.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. And I think just sort of putting a little bit of effort into it can go a long way when you show that you actually want to do it. My boyfriend Benji, is really good at this. We're looking for apartments, and yesterday we found one in a building that we like. He's like, we're just going to stand out front and someone's going to come out and we're going to ask them how they like living here. And in my head, I'm like, oh, my God, you have to talk to a stranger. No. And this woman comes out, and she was so lovely. And we talked to her for 10 minutes about living there. And like, you said, like, I think at first she was like, why are these strangers talking to me? But the minute we gave her a smile and we asked her a question, like, we had a great conversation.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Exactly.

[Noah Michelson]

But I think getting over sort of the scariness of talking to a stranger and thinking, yeah, like, they don't like me. They're not gonna like me. This is gonna be awkward. That's a huge hill to climb.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

It really is. But you know what? Ultimately, when it. In the research on, like, who do people. What kind of people do people like? It's people that like them. And so I think sometimes we think these acts of connection, reaching out, saying hi, complimenting someone, they'll be weird or awkward or cr. But people love being liked. Right. All these things that you're doing are showing that you're invested in someone that's so real.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Like, when I think about my friendships, I am. It's very evident to me who wants to invest and who takes the effort. And I just, like, literally have, like, little love, like emojis popping out of my head because I'm like, whoa, I want to love you more because I feel like you're taking the time and effort to love me.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's called. In the research, it's called risk regulation theory, which is we go about relationships to regulate our risk of rejection. And so if someone seems like they're going to reject us, we're like, but if they seem like they're going to accept us because they're reaching out, because they're checking in, complimenting us, those are the relationships people tend to want to pursue.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. Let's say we've been in a book club for a month and we've met someone and we really like them. And we feel like we have a nice time with them. How do we take it to the next level and actually deepen the friendship?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, well, I would say. And this is a tip that I give for, like, people looking to connect at work too, which is something I do speak on. It's repotting the relationship. So changing the setting in which you interact deepens the relationship. Because otherwise, if the book club ends, our friendship ends. And you see that with co workers. Right. If we didn't hang out outside of work and now you're leaving. As much as I love you, it's kind of hard to be like, we don't have that established trend of hang out outside. So I would just say to them, like, oh, man, it's been so nice to get to know you through this book club. I'd love to get dinner next time. Before book club or after the book club. And trying to change the setting, because each setting brings out different sides of ourselves, and we feel closer the more sides of ourselves come out in the connection.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Let's talk a little bit about the vulnerability you have to show when making and keeping friendships. And let's talk specifically about straight dudes, because I feel like we've seen so much. It's everywhere. Even if you're not reading about friendship, it's like straight men are in an isolation crisis. They have no friends. And I'm like, oh, my God, what's happening to my friends out here? I mean, we all know, right, that straight men are socialized differently and different. Talk to me a little bit about how there can be a little more vulnerability.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right. You know, there's data that in a given week, men, and I imagine straight men specifically, are half as likely to express affection to their friends, like, half as likely to be vulnerable. And so it is quite stark, these differences. I feel like probably women who are listening can relate to this. If you're, like, dating a guy and you really want to, I will be vulnerable to you. Right. And there's a couple of things that I would recommend for men who want deeper, vulnerable relationships. The first is that you have to go first. Right? Because if you're breaking out of some socialization behavior, then someone has to take that risk. Don't just assume it's gonna happen. And so next time you hang out with your guy friend, can you say, this is something I've been struggling with lately that I wanted to share with you? So the first tip is to go first, and the second tip is to maintain nuance if you've struggled with a couple of friends trying to make male friends and they're not reciprocating or there's not a lot of vulnerability, that doesn't mean it's gonna be every single one. Right. And it's about finding the guys that are ready for that and open for that. And that's gonna be a sifting process. It might happen more over time, but just remember that it can happen. And there's other people, other men that want the level of connection that you do too.

[Noah Michelson]

Mm.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah. And it's that thing about, you know, not just going first, but putting out what you want back. Like, I've witnessed that with my partner and his friends and my brother and his friends. It's like, my brother is a physician, and he's read a lot of the data on men in isolation. And a few years ago, he started being like, I love you, before he, like, hangs up with some of his guy friends. And it's like, at first it was, like. Like, silly and awkward, but he's, like, making a concerted effort to create, like, authentically, and it's worked really well for him. And I see a lot of men in my life noticing and taking effort.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

That's so great. Cause I feel like with men, we tend to see more of this trend of if they get into these romantic partnerships, they put it all in their only vulnerable. But that shows that there is this need to be vulnerable. Right. And the consequence of that is when the divorce might happen. You know, hopefully not. But men are so much more vulnerable mentally after the divorce and throughout the relationship. It's healthy for both parties to have community outside of that part. We see that it makes you a better partner. It does make you a better partner. You're less vulnerable to issues within the partnership. You're more able to come back to the partnership in a regulated space. Not only are you less depressed when you make friends, but your partner is less depressed when you make friends, according to the research. So it. You know, I think for men that are trying to gain all of their needs through their partner, that. That if you make friends, it's going to help not only you, but your partnership as well.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I think that word regulation is so important. I know I've been in a conflict with my partner at times, and when I go hang out with my girlfriends, I literally text him an hour in and be like, I love and appreciate you so much, because I, like, feel better now. It's really our own baggage. A lot of the times that we have to Figure out.

[Noah Michelson]

I also think one of the hardest parts is that it's not just hard for men to be vulnerable, but we're also living in a climate where we see Pete Hegson telling the troops that they have to be manly and that you shouldn't show vulnerability. We have homophobias on the rise. There are all these other things baked into our culture that makes it really hard for people to also want to open up.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

It's definitely gotten worse.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, I think you're exactly right. Like, the reality is men are more afraid to be vulnerable for a reason. They are less likely to receive a positive, affirming response to their vulnerability than women might be. And so it's a real fear. And there's space outside where people that want you to be vulnerable, both of those can exist at once.

[Noah Michelson]

What do you think about appointments for friends? I mean, I personally rely on them.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yes.

[Noah Michelson]

Every Friday, I have drinks with the same friends, and I look forward to it. And we, like, unpack the week, and it's great. But some people say, like, appointments are actually bad because you can't have. Like, if it's just an appointment, you're sort of going through the motions, or.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

It might be an obligation.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. Like, where do you land on that?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I love it.

[Noah Michelson]

Okay.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Especially people that live in big cities. Everyone is so busy. And it's a way to say, I prioritize. Right. It's like, I'm gonna carve out the space. Nothing else is gonna take this up. The space that I really value. And I just think you're a lot more likely to see your friends if you put a standing time on the calendar to see each other.

[Noah Michelson]

Mm. Do you do that, Raj?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I do, and I love it. I don't have a standing one like you, but I make dates, you know, far ahead of time, and I think it gives you moments to look forward to also. Yeah, absolutely. You write a lot about authenticity. I think a lot of people hear that word in, tune, out, because it's become kind of cliche. What does that mean to you when it comes to friendships? Because I think it does mean something different to everyone.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. This was. I have a chapter in Platonic authenticity, and I struggled with it because I was like, what? Be your true self? Well, own your. Like, what does these things mean? Reading the research, I came to the conclusion that it's who we are without our defense mechanisms, which means, you know, instead of being vulnerable, I might withdraw instead of saying, oh, this upset me. Right. That is the more authentic response to say, this hurt me than just withdrawing or acting out or now putting you down a little bit or saying how you're not that good of a friend because there's this underlying hurt that's there. Right?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Checking your ego a little bit.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Like, and I think to ask, to be authentic, we can ask ourselves, how would I navigate the situation if I felt completely safe? Because that's why these defense mechanisms come up. We feel like if I express that vulnerable thing, I'll get rejected. So I have to. I have to now express it in this kind of offhanded way about how I actually feel in the connection. It's scary. It's scary to do that thing because it feels like a risk. But when people were told to not use safety behaviors. Safety behaviors are things we do to avoid rejection. Like talking really fast because we don't think people want to listen or not talking at all. Right. When people were told to give those up, they actually connected more, not less, because they were more present and they were more engaged with the other person. And the only way that you'll know that, though, is if you actually try it. Because I think for a lot of people, they're so afraid of, like, just being who they are, being genuine because they think they'll get rejected. And if you never test that assumption, you can never change that assumption.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

We're all just like our giant seven year old selves.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, totally.

[Noah Michelson]

It's third down.

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[Noah Michelson]

We have a listener question from Gina. She said, I have a new friendship with a mom I met at my daughter's school. I really enjoy hanging out with her, but I feel like I'm putting in more effort than she is. Should I confront her about this? I don't wanna scare her away because our friendship is still pretty new. But I also don't always wanna be the one who's making plans or suggesting that we hang out. What do you think?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

First of all, this is such a common problem. The one way, lack of reciprocity. The first thing that I wanna say is it can really feel like this person doesn't like me as much or they're not as invested. But I really think that often the reason people aren't recip. Specifically, when you have evidence in real life that they seem to like you, it's going well. It's because they're afraid and they think I'm a burden. They think if she wanted to hang out with me, she would reach out. They're anxious. It is that fear of rejection that lies at the core. Rather than they don't like you. That's really what I see over and over again. So I say that to this person to keep that in mind so it doesn't hurt as much. But I would say it sounds like this person might be getting to the place where they're like, I'm not gonna reach out anymore because I'm tired of being the only one. Which, again, fair. But I think if you're gonna get to that place, it's actually much kinder to bring it up because you give that other person a chance to repair rather than, you know, now they don't have you in their lives, and they didn't even get a chance. And so I would just say something like, I really love hanging out with you. It's been such a good time. You know, it would mean a lot to me if you reached out a little bit more. Because I. I've noticed I've been the one to reach out. Like, is that something that you'd be open to? But the last thing I want to share is that because this is something I've gone through, I'm a big initiator. Sometimes friends are on different timelines than me. I might want to reach out every other week. They may be More of a once a month. But when I give it some time, I often see it's not that they'll never reach out, it's just that they might reach out at a different cadence. So you can also choose to give it time and see what happens.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Also, like life circumstances, like some of my girlfriends have whole children. What on literal earth, they have these tiny humans to take care of.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I never.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Never mind taking a little more effort to reach out because, like, holy shit, that's a hard job. And I understand that, you know, caregiving in any way.

[Noah Michelson]

There's something to be said too, for those friendships. I have friends, too, I used to work with at HuffPost. They all left HuffPost and I see them three or four times a year. We all get together and like, I'd like to see them more, but all of our schedules are crazy. And even still, four times a year is amazing.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yep.

[Noah Michelson]

And our friendships, we've still been friends for over 10 years and we count on that. We know at Christmas we're gonna do it, probably gonna do it sometime in spring. And it doesn't feel like less of a friendship because of that. We still have a group chat, you know, and all those things, but getting to see them in person. So I think sometimes it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I have a group of friends like that that we only get together a couple times a year. So we do PowerPoints with updates of our life. That's so fun. And they are so hilarious. I love that they're terrible and hilarious.

[Noah Michelson]

That's great.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

All right, so we've touched on a lot of important stuff. Can you tell me what else is key for creating strong friendships as adults?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, I think if some. This is particularly for my anxiously attached folks. If someone doesn't seem to like you, walk away and don't work harder. Right. Because sometimes it's like, oh, I really like them. And so I should keep trying or keep pushing it, even though it doesn't seem like they're interested in engaging with me. And, you know, when I went to a friend's wedding and her. It was another friend, her husband was there and he was talking about when he had his bachelor party and it was in Atlantic City and it was like last minute, half of the friends canceled and they didn't show up at his best party the day of. And that sucks. Right? And he was like talking about his friends and how they live so close, but they don't see each other ever. And you know, things like being flaky or canceling last minute for important moments. And then I was like, okay, there's a difference between good friends and good company. Good company is someone who you like as a person. Good friends is an investment in one another. To show up when we need each other, to be reliable, to, you know, show care, express affirmation, be intentional about this relationship. And so just remember, even if you really like someone, that might not be enough to build a friendship with them. They have to be willing, just like you are, to be a good friend in the connection too.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

You know, the showing up thing is really important to me. I found myself taking, you know, getting some criteria with new friends. I'll ask, like, what feels really important to you? Because sometimes canceling on a drink state or whatever feels more important to one party than the other. I want to know. You know, I've had friends be like, no big deal. I'm not a stickler. But, like, if I tell you this event is important, I need you to show up for me and, like, be vocal about that, specific about what feels important to you. Cause I think we all have different priorities, right? Like, when it comes to friendship, I.

[Noah Michelson]

Do the same thing, too. If I'm having a party, I do the opposite. And I let people off the hook. I say it's totally cool if you can't make it to this. This is, like, you know, whatever. I get it. You're busy. I'm gonna be okay with it.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

You do do that.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, and I love to do that.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And what feels important to you, though? What would you tell a good friend? Like, you need to show up.

[Noah Michelson]

Raj knows. I have these friend weekends in Chicago with my friends, like, three of my best friends. And, like, that's when I'm like, you guys, we have to show up for this.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, good.

[Noah Michelson]

This is important.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. I think you all are alluding to this concept in the friendship research called responsiveness, which means it requires you to really see who someone is and adjust the ways that you show up based off of what their needs are. Right?

[Christy from Back to the Bar]

Yes.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

And so, you know, you might have some friends, Reliability is really important. Other friends, not as important. Some friends, words of affirmation are really important. Some friends, it feels freaky, and they get a little cagey if you give them a compliment. Right. And that I think that's a beautiful thing, because attachment theory is about how you're imposing the past onto the present, and you're not really seeing the person in front of you. And being responsive to the unique ways someone likes you to show up. That means you're really, really seeing them. And I think that's so important for connection.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yes.

[Noah Michelson]

What are your thoughts about in real life, friends versus digital or Internet friends? I think there are so many people now who are meeting people online, Whether they're playing games with them or whatever it is, I think those can be really vibrant friendships.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yes.

[Noah Michelson]

But, you know, when we had an episode about being a better friend with Anna Goldfarb, she was saying that she really felt like those are great places to meet people and to sort of, like, forge friendships, but you have to be in real life at some point. They don't really matter. Where do you land on that?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I think friendship is all about the spectrum in a way that romantic relationships tend to not be. Right. Like, I'm with you or I've divorced you. Right. But friendship, it's like, oh, no. It's just maybe instead of my best friend, you're my close friend or you're my good friend. And I think that that's a beautiful thing about friendships. So I wouldn't say that the online friendships don't matter. I would say they're doing something. They're offering you something. But what would be the issue? And that's what we see in online interaction in general. Or the issue is when you're displacing and replacing in person interaction with just online interaction, because it cannot replace it in terms of the benefits that it gives us, our health, physically, mentally, even. Let's say you need someone to bring you to the hospital because it's an emergency. Like, your online friends can't fulfill all of the needs that we have because we are fully embodied people. And so I wouldn't say nix the online friends. I would just say make sure that that's not your only type of friendship that makes sense.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I mean, let's go. Let's go for the banger. Like, what's the. If you could choose only one thing to keep at the front of your mind when you're attempting to make a new friend as an adult, what would you say it is?

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna share a quote from my niece. Cause she read my book, and she said for friendship to happen, someone has to be brave. So be brave.

[Noah Michelson]

I love that.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's so real.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

I think that's increasingly harder as we get further into the 21st century. We have so many headwinds against us. There's even this culture, too. And I feel this way sometimes, too. Like, the introvert culture, where it's like, I don't want to go out, like, and it's almost glamorized. It's like, I'm just gonna stay home.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

No new friends.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

All of that. It's like, I don't never have to be vulnerable again.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. And I think we're really scared of being vulnerable.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah, I think so, too. And I. You know, I think part of it is, like, phone culture. Any discomfort I have, I can turn to my phone to cope with that discomfort.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I see it all the time.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah. And when I assign my students I teach at University of Maryland to hang out without their phones, they're like, oh, my God. Like, there's a moment of discomfort or quiet. I wanted to take out my phone, but then I came up with a question to ask. And so I see these conversation skills materializing before their eyes when they're not using that phone as a crutch to escape discomfort. And I think connection is all about embracing discomfort. Right. Because like I talked about with the mere exposure effect, the more familiar people are, the more you like them. That means when people are not familiar, it's very uncomfortable. The problem is, when that happens, we eject from the connection. We're like, oh, this is uncomfortable. Let me not do it. Rather than. This is part of the process of connecting is having a period of discomfort when we don't know each other as well. And what you really need to do is stick it out so you can build that comfort over time. But the problem is, like, yeah, if you keep trying to escape discomfort, you're going to escape connection.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah. I have a thing where when I'm with my friends, like, we do not have our phones. You know, like, at dinner, if I only get to see you four times a year, you can wait to look at Instagram. Of course you have a work email. I understand. But, like, I've been with people. We'll be at dinner, and I can see them on Instagram, and I'm like, what are you doing?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's why I do need to show my friends the memes I know.

[Noah Michelson]

And that is different because you're an interactive.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yep.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I. I hear you.

[Noah Michelson]

I feel like I already know the answer to this question, but I want to hear what your thoughts are. I mean, I think more and more people are now are getting AI friends, AI boyfriends, that kind of thing.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yeah.

[Noah Michelson]

Is there any value in your mind to someone who is making friends with someone? Not even someone. Something that isn't a real person.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

So with technology, I feel like the important thing is to use it as a bridge to Real person connection. Because when you look into the data, the people that are most and least lonely are both heavy technologies. The difference is the heavy technology users that are using it as a medium to connect in person. I found this Instagram event online. I slid into the DMs of my old friend. Right. Those people are the ones that are benefiting the most. And so can you use AI to tell you, okay, I would love to meet more people that are very empathic. Like I feel in this AI, where would I go to find those kinds of people? How do you use that as a bridge to connection rather than the period after this is my connection period?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I feel like, especially with long distance friendships, I am over communicative with them on text and it feels so great. I'm like, just took a shower and like my best friend that lives in New Mexico. But like it's, it's I am using as a bridge. We're filling a void in certain ways, but when we see each other, it's so lovely. But I totally get what you're saying about like, use it as a means to see them and be with them.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Yes, yes, yes. Or connect with them. Because what's really harmful in terms of like how our online behavior is scrolling. Scrolling. It's related to poor mental health. It's related to more loneliness. But when people are actively engaging, texting people, reaching out, sharing things, that's actually not related to loneliness. And so it is really about how we use it. Unfortunately, I think a lot of these platforms are designed for us to scroll because then we're staying on it. But just keep that in mind. If you're spending a lot of hours scrolling, could you instead use that platform to reach out to people?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I feel bad when I'm scrolling. I physically. It feels gross.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Junk food.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yes. I've started sometimes in the morning just staring out the window instead.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

Oh, man.

[Noah Michelson]

Checking in on the squirrel.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

It can only be for three or four minutes. Cause then it's weird after that. But like immediately it's like a reset.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

I totally agree. I love just like being irl staring out the window. Bring back. Staring out the window.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Yes.

[Noah Michelson]

I think that that's a beautiful place to end this. Thank you, Dr. Franco. This was amazing. Thank you.

[Dr. Marissa Franco]

My pleasure. Pleasure.

[Noah Michelson]

Raj. It's time for Better in five. These are our top five takeaways from what we just learned.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Amazing. All right, number one, when it comes to finding new friends, repetition is key. Encountering a person in the same place can create familiarity and make you feel safer.

[Noah Michelson]

Definitely. Number two, Deepening a friendship often happens when you take it to a new location or level. So if you're in a book club, for instance, try going out to dinner.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Let's do it. Number three, technology can be great for friendship, but you need to use it as a bridge to get to that IRL time.

[Noah Michelson]

Number four, there's a difference between good company and good friends. Being a friend is showing up and investing in the relationship.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And number five, as Dr. Franco's niece wisely said, be brave, make the effort, and beautiful things can happen. Okay, Noah, so after all this, do you think that you are making friends? Wrong.

[Noah Michelson]

I don't. I love this episode because it just sort of reinforced what I already think about friendships and how you actually have to put the work in. You have to show up and be vulnerable, all of that. Sometimes I think it's easier said than done. I don't think friendship is necessarily a simple thing to have, but I love what you said about the idea of asking your friends what's important to them and really prioritizing that. And I think I could be better about that with my friends. I'm not sure that I actually have taken the time to really ask them, you know, what do you need from me?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Right.

[Noah Michelson]

What do you think? Have you been doing it wrong?

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Well, first of all, thank you for rewarding my constant yap. And my over communication doesn't always get rewarded. I don't think like you, I don't think I was doing it wrong necessarily. But my friendships, I've noticed, are really focused on fun, fun, fun, because the world is a messed up place. So all we want to do is just like Kiki and jump around. But what Dr. Franco said about really examining again what you said, also what people need and their friendship style, I want to examine that a little more because my friends make me really happy and I want to genuinely do the same for them.

[Noah Michelson]

Yeah, and it's, it's hard out there right now. It is like the more people we have who are rooting us on that we can root on, I think the healthier we're going to be in so many ways.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

That's right.

[Noah Michelson]

Anyway, until next time. As long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

I love you guys. Am I doing it Wrong? Is a co production between HuffPost and Acast.

[Noah Michelson]

Our producers are Eve Bishop, Carmen Borca Carrillo and Malia Agudelo.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter.

[Noah Michelson]

Special thanks to HuffPost's head of audience.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

Abby Williams, Head of Video Will Took.

[Noah Michelson]

As well as Kate Palmer, Marta Rodriguez and Terry d'. Angelo.

[Raj Panjabi Johnson]

And we're your hosts Raj Punjabi Johnson and Noah Michelson.

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