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- [00:02]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding group A, please have your boarding passes.
- [00:05]
Noah Michaelson
Ready to scan if your phone is.
- [00:06]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [00:30]
Noah Michaelson
G'day, America. It's Tony and Ryan from the Tony and Ryan Podcast from Down Under.
- [00:35]
Dr. Ellen Lee
This episode is sponsored by Boost Mobile.
- [00:37]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [00:39]
Noah Michaelson
These guys are no longer the prepaid.
- [00:41]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [01:12]
Noah Michaelson
It's not you, it's me. Things have gotten so complicated.
- [01:17]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
You know, we just don't click anymore.
- [01:20]
Noah Michaelson
And I feel like you're slowing me down.
- [01:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [01:32]
Noah Michaelson
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- [01:47]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi Johnson, Head of identity content at HuffPost.
- [01:51]
Dr. Ellen Lee
And I'm Noah Michaelson, director of HuffPost Personal.
- [01:54]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Welcome to Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [02:01]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Okay, Raj, tell me about this. How wrong are you doing? Loneliness.
- [02:06]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
You know, I am such a social person. I'm socially thirsty.
- [02:10]
Dr. Ellen Lee
You are?
- [02:11]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah. I just love being around people and partying and hanging and rotting and doing whatever. So I don't really think about it. I feel like I'm combating it every day. But I'm starting to understand that it's really about the quality of our relationships and the state of mind you go into these relationships with. I suspect I don't know as much as I think I know. What about you?
- [02:31]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah, you know what? We don't ever really talk about loneliness as a culture. As a country, I spent a lot of my life being very alone and through a lot of hard work and just sort of working on myself, I feel like I'm not anymore. I'm really grateful for that. But there are definitely times I still feel it and I have to work at it and try and fix it. And I'm curious to hear just more of a global perspective why this is happening now, because I do think it's getting worse.
- [02:58]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, it definitely is. And we're going to dig into it today with Dr. Ellen Lee. She's an associate professor of psychiatry at the University of California, San Diego, and she's a loneliness justice warrior.
- [03:10]
Dr. Ellen Lee
So get us connected. Dr. Lee.
- [03:12]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes. Dr. Lee, we are so excited to have you here with us. Thank you again for being here.
- [03:26]
Noah Michaelson
Thanks for having me. Happy to talk about loneliness at any time. Yes.
- [03:30]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Okay. Let's start at the very, very beginning. Is loneliness a physical state or a state of mind? Like, what exactly are we dealing with when we're out here combating the loneliness epidemic?
- [03:41]
Noah Michaelson
I actually really find this question pretty interesting. It's more complicated than you think because there's such a strong mind body connection. But I would agree that loneliness is a state of mind because it's a purely subjective experience solely based on how we feel. And we define it in the research as a distress that arises between a discrepancy between your desired social relationships and your perceived social relationships. So it's both what you want, but also what you think your relationships are like.
- [04:09]
Dr. Ellen Lee
That's so interesting.
- [04:10]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [04:11]
Dr. Ellen Lee
And when we're talking about it being an epidemic, which is what we're hearing more and more of, I mean, the Surgeon general is talking about, everyone is sort of talking about this. What makes it an epidemic? And how do you diagnose someone with loneliness? Or what do you see clinically?
- [04:26]
Noah Michaelson
The rates are rising. So that's one reason why we think it's an epidemic. But I also think there's this bit of contagion aspect to it where we think that maybe loneliness is catching or more and more people are becoming lonely. I don't know that it's catching, but there is a sense that there's some system wide or society wide reasons why people are feeling more isolated and people are feeling like their social relationships are not as strong what they'd like them to be. We have a couple of ways in the research where we'll provide these scales. Some of the scales are pretty useful because they won't actually use the word lonely or loneliness. You might try to CIRCUMVENT the stigma that people may have or the reluctance people have to admit to feeling lonely. But I think ultimately loneliness is a purely subjective and personal experience. When you ask people if they feel lonely, they might describe something slightly different, different for each person. And I think it's really important to get a sense of, do they feel like they're lonely? What is that experience like for each of them?
- [05:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And we are, as humans, social animals, right? So how does social isolation happen? Say, even if you're living in a big city? Like, how does it. How does that feeling happen?
- [05:34]
Noah Michaelson
It's actually very pronounced in that way because there is some speculation in the. In the history of the word loneliness that we didn't actually used to use the word loneliness until the industrial revolution, so not until we actually started gathering into these cities, living in these sort of large, busy communities where people are starting to feel more isolated. And so the thought is that actually there is a sense of you can feel lonely in a crowd, and that may actually be much more pronounced than being alone by yourself in sort of a more like rural or pastoral or natural kind of setting. So I think that we are social creatures, and some of the thought of why is loneliness even a thing? Like, why are we evolved to feel lonely? Some of the thought is that loneliness used to be a trigger, like a canary in a coal mine. So if you're feeling lonely, you need to go find someone, because people are important for survival, for food, for protection. And now it's sort of become something where loneliness has become a persistent problem for people, where people feel lonely and they feel isolated, and they feel maybe more sensitive to social rejection, and then they actually end up withdrawing. They actually try to stay away from people to avoid feeling rejected socially, and they sort of perpetuate this lonely loneliness is something more significant, persistent over time.
- [06:54]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Dr. Ellen, when do we start seeing loneliness as an epidemic? How recent is this, and what are some of the reasons that you think this has happened? I mean, one of the things I'm thinking about is just that not only are maybe people not socializing as much, there are reasons we'll probably get into for that, but also the quality of their connections are not as strong as they were before. So dig into that. When did we start seeing this, and what are some of the reasons that we think we're seeing it now?
- [07:22]
Noah Michaelson
It's really interesting because, like, the neurobiology of loneliness research really came up over the last, I would say, like, 50 years or so, where people are becoming more and more interested in sort of the Science of loneliness. But there's also a thought that we've been kind of moving that way even before COVID even before technology and social media really started picking up. So people are starting to live alone more, you know, maybe, you know, marriage rates have been dropping, divorce rates have been increasing. People are having fewer and fewer children. So they are more isolated. But we're also seeing people become less involved in community organizations, religious organizations. And then one big factor for loneliness is aging. So we're also seeing a growing aging population. So over time we have been seeing people's social networks decreasing over time. And then I think with technology there is this ability to connect. So it's kind of a double edged sword. You can connect more easily, but you could also perpetuate maybe a social connection that doesn't feel as strong or as meaningful. So it's not the same as being friends with someone in person versus being friends purely online. And the quality of that relationship may not be as fulfilling. So there's also the thought that maybe social media makes you self compare or makes you feel left out. And so maybe there are other things about feeling sort of more socially rejected on social media. So I think there's a lot of different reasons why we as a society are becoming more lonely. It's been pretty natural to feel lonely when, you know, key milestones of your life, like, you know, you move out of the house, you go to college.
- [08:58]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [08:58]
Noah Michaelson
Totally cut off from your usual social networks or your social supports. You know, you, you get divorced, you retire from work. So a lot of different aspects of your network are changing. You have an empty nest, kids grow up and move out. You know, all sorts of, you know, different life milestones can also make you feel pretty lonely too.
- [09:18]
Dr. Ellen Lee
You know, it's interesting, I met this man maybe 15 years ago. His name is Jeff and he was the self proclaimed foot fetish king of Hollywood, Florida.
- [09:26]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I'm excited to see where this goes.
- [09:28]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah. And I met him online and he told me he was probably 50 or 60, this was 15 years ago. And he said when he was growing up he didn't know anyone who was gay and he especially didn't know anyone who had a foot fetish. And he felt so alone. And then the Internet came along and he found these message boards of all these other people that were just like him. And all of a sudden he didn't feel so al. But even though he met all these other people and it was really affirming and at least he knew he wasn't, you know, broken or deviant because there were other people who felt this way. They didn't live near him.
- [10:01]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [10:01]
Dr. Ellen Lee
And so he had a community in some ways at least he was sort of felt like he was legitimate in his desires, but he couldn't go and meet these people. He couldn't really socially interact with them. They were all over the world.
- [10:13]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [10:13]
Dr. Ellen Lee
And so it's like you said, Dr. Lee, this idea of like technology and social networks, I think it is a double edged sword. I think we can be so much more connected and find people who are like us now. But it doesn't mean that those connections actually are as strong or as true or as meaningful as we want them to be, because they actually aren't in real life.
- [10:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [10:32]
Noah Michaelson
I do appreciate that initial sense of belongingness though. And I think belongingness is so important, you know, especially when you're from a group that is marginalized or, you know, not really popular, it's hard to find people who are like you or understand you and your experiences. And I think that cultivating belongingness is actually really, really important to combat, even prevent loneliness. And there have been some studies trying to improve loneliness. And let's create a self help group or let's create a support group online. And the ones that work are the ones where people feel that sort of shared common identity that's a little bit more rare than just sort of an all comer support group. So I'm happy in one way that they're able to find some way to connect. But also it is hard when you can't actually have in person.
- [11:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
The in person stuff. I have to say we had another expert on here, Anna Goldfarb, for the friendship episode who was talking about how important it is to like sit with someone. And I never really thought about that, but it is so much different. Even if you're not like touching them or holding their hand, the quality of that connection is so different. And that leads to my next question. I know you're an expert in aging and loneliness and you mentioned this a little bit, but like do people over the age of 60, 65 naturally isolate? Like I'm thinking of the old man and up who like didn't want to be bothered and like floated away. Like this is a stereotype, but does that naturally happen? Do you kind of want to be like leave me the F alone?
- [12:07]
Noah Michaelson
Yeah. I mean I think that there's a lot of risks for loneliness as we age. And you know, we think that it's sort of a W shaped curve. So like people are most lonely and they're young, 20s, mid-50s, and then sort of the late 80s, the end of life. And so I do think you're more likely to be lonely. Like, let's take the character and up. So he lost his partner. So a lot of people lose friends and families to health reasons or death. And people may move away. They might go to retirement homes or retirement communities or assisted living or nursing homes. So they're not, they don't have the same relationships. They've decreased mobility and physical health issues. They can't engage in some of their social activities. You know, children may move away. Or it's very possible to get more lonely as you get older because so many things are changing. All these sort of milestone sort of experiences are changing. You're often retired, so you don't have work or that kind of social network.
- [13:04]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Better Help Raj.
- [13:10]
Dr. Ellen Lee
We talk about relationships a lot on this show. What are some of your relationship green flags that you look for in people?
- [13:17]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I love that. Okay, for me, green flags would be loves to eat, loves to cook, not into football and understands what sex positive is.
- [13:26]
Dr. Ellen Lee
I will co sign all of that.
- [13:28]
Noah Michaelson
Nice.
- [13:28]
Dr. Ellen Lee
But the truth is we usually hear about red flags we should avoid in people or in other words, what they're doing wrong. But what would happen if we focus more on looking for green flags in friends and partners, AKA what they're doing right?
- [13:42]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
If you have trouble even identifying what your green flags are and what they should be, therapy can be immensely helpful for it. It's an extraordinary tool for organizing your values and prioritizing health in relationships. It's especially helpful for learning to practice the character and integrity you're looking for. Embodying the green flags yourself.
- [14:01]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Raj and I have both been in therapy for years. It's given us the tools to understand ourselves and our own boundaries so much better. And yes, therapy has taught us how to look for the good in others and ourselves.
- [14:13]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Love that. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give better Help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.
- [14:29]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Discover your relationship green flags with better help.
- [14:32]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Visit betterhelp.com doingitwrongtoday and get 10% off your first month.
- [14:37]
Dr. Ellen Lee
That's betterhelp H-E-L-P.com doing it wrong this.
- [14:43]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Episode is brought to you by Quince.
- [14:45]
Dr. Ellen Lee
You know, Raj, I used to think that elevating my style game meant spending so much money.
- [14:50]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, I know. It used to seem like I had to go into crushing debt to get clothes I really wanted.
- [14:55]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Well, not anymore, thanks to Quince. Quince offers a great selection of clothes that are great to wear and great for my wallet.
- [15:02]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Agreed. Now I can upgrade my style by snagging killer luxury essentials that go with my vibe and my budget.
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Dr. Ellen Lee
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
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Dr. Ellen Lee
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
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Dr. Ellen Lee
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
That means Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. So you can update your look without breaking the bank.
- [15:50]
Dr. Ellen Lee
I can't wait for you to see the cute sweater I got. I'm getting compliments from absolute strangers on it.
- [15:55]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, I love that. And I got the cutest skirt from Quince that makes me look a lot richer than I actually am.
- [16:00]
Dr. Ellen Lee
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com wrong to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com wrong.
- [16:21]
Dr. Ellen Lee
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- [16:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [16:32]
Dr. Ellen Lee
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- [16:36]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [16:37]
Dr. Ellen Lee
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- [16:44]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
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- [16:47]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Ebay. Things people love.
- [17:01]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Welcome back to Am I Doing It Wrong? Does culture play a part? Because I feel like some communities are more collectivist versus individualistic.
- [17:11]
Noah Michaelson
Yeah, the research is definitely mixed, but you would think collectivist societies, ones where they're sort of more reliant on each other, and that's sort of like beyond just the family unit. But or community level, people would be less lonely. But actually, people are more lonely. Yeah. And I think part of it is the expectation of your social support network is higher in those communities. On the other hand, there are more safeguards. Right. Where people who are from these sort of collective societies are more likely have more social supports or more social connections. So maybe even though the loneliness is higher, the way it impacts people is somewhat, you know, different. Like, maybe if you move. For example, one thing that people study is people who move from sort of a collectivist society and move to an individualistic society. Like. Like, for example, America is thought to be us Is generally thought to be quite individualistic.
- [18:04]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes.
- [18:05]
Noah Michaelson
A lot of, like, Western Europe. And so people who move from, you know, more like Asian countries or places where they are sort of more reliant on each. They may really struggle in the country. But if they're able to find those relationships and those community ties and people with, like, a shared background, then often they can buffer a lot of the issues that, you know, might arise from being more isolated, especially in language.
- [18:28]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah. Okay. So it's like a quality versus quantity. Like, quality of these relationships is more important than having, like, a ton of them.
- [18:36]
Noah Michaelson
It's probably a factor of both. It's probably having both, you know, because just, you know, we. We sort of disregard these sort of very weak social ties. You know, like the acquaintance you see when you're dropping off your kid at school or like, you know, the person who opens the door for you at Starbucks and you say, thank you all, you know, minuscule social interactions can actually be pretty meaningful. And so we notice people lost a lot of these during COVID Yes. And it actually matters, you know, these little sort of interactions, these little pieces of being part of the larger humanity is really important, actually.
- [19:12]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I really. That was the part that I struggled with really, really, like, a lot during the pandemic. Those stranger interactions. I love. Oh, I love that sweater. Where did you get it? Like, I'm a big, you know, certified yapper, as they say. And I really missed that part during the pandemic.
- [19:28]
Dr. Ellen Lee
I felt the same way during the pandemic. I was living alone, and so I didn't have a partner, and so I spent, you know, almost a year alone. I remember going to the dentist for the first time, probably seven months in, and it was the first time someone had touched me in, like, six or seven months. And I almost started crying.
- [19:43]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, yeah, of course.
- [19:43]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Getting my teeth cleaned. It was ridiculous, but it was so. It was the impact of that. The other thing I'm thinking about Dr. Lee is just how easy I think it is to. For your situation to change and for you to sort of encounter loneliness. I'm even thinking about like myself, you know, I have a partner, but if I broke up, I would not have that connection. And most of my good friends in the last five years have left New York. I have some friends in New York now, but a lot of them left like a lot of people do because New York is expensive and annoying. Most of my best friends don't live in the city anymore. And you know, we were working from home up until recently. And so I think really quickly, even if you are a social person, someone who has a lot of connections, you can find yourself feeling really lonely. I also have friends, they're married, they move for a job to a city where neither of them knows anyone, they don't have any friends. All of a sudden all they have is their partner.
- [20:35]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And that's a lot of pressure.
- [20:37]
Dr. Ellen Lee
It's a lot of pressure. And I don't think that that person can sort of qualm all of your loneliness either. You need these other people. So I guess. What do you think about that, Dr. Lee? The fact that we're all maybe closer to loneliness than we think or, you know, I'm sure there are people who are listening who are actively lonely, but it's not that far away.
- [20:56]
Noah Michaelson
You know, what you're hitting on is sort of there is a loneliness scale that divides loneliness into two aspects. So one is this emotional loneliness. So having someone you feel intimately close to, you're close confidant. And the other part is like social loneliness and like, you know, like someone to go bowling with, someone to like do things with. And I feel like it's hard for your partner to manage both of those roles. And so I do think it is really easy for us to sort of discount some relationships or, you know, just, you know, we. We forget how hard it is to start over. I always joke I hate moving because you have to find a new grocery store, a new dentist, a new plumber, all those things. But you really also have to build that community network. And it's challenging to find a point where you feel like you belong again. And sometimes it can take years to build that up. One thing I think people also forget though, is how much work it is to maintain the relationships you already have. So even though people have moved away, I'm sure you do a lot of reaching back out and trying to maintain those relationships. And it is work, you know, it not like a Cruise control. Like some people say, oh, you can just dip back in and it's like you never left. But you also have to be able to manage conflict and even confront people when there's something to work out. Because you don't want to let things go and you don't want to just let the relationship sort of wither if there's a misunderstanding or something you guys.
- [22:16]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Need to work through, even really healthy ones. I don't know if you all do this, but I schedule a lot of my friendships now. I mean, I have standing drinks with a, with some friends every Friday night and I look forward to that. But just having a busy, active life with work and everything else. If you don't make those, they almost feel like appointments. Yeah, but I think they're so important and I don't want to have to schedule all my friendships. I want some of it to be organic and just sort of to happen. But if you don't, like you were just saying, if you don't tend to the relationships you have, there's so many reasons to not show up to a party, to not call someone to have dinner. And that evaporates really quickly too.
- [22:51]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, I totally agree. I'm with the appointments I have chosen, you know, my partner have chosen to not have, you know, children. So we're really big on building community because having a nuclear family is not the only way to have a family. So these appointments, these like friendship appointments are with our like existing family and friends is really important. Yeah, but you're right, Dr. Lee, it takes work.
- [23:14]
Noah Michaelson
Yeah, it's. You're making it a priority, you know, and I think scheduling it is actually showing how much of priority you are making it. You're not just going to, you know, leaving it to chance is great except people are so busy and so occupied. I think people work beyond the night, you know, the eight hour workday. So it, you have to do things to make sure people have time for, for each other, you know.
- [23:35]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Can you tell me a little bit about what the physical repercussions of loneliness are? I know I've, I've read this long report from Vivek Murthy. Like it's terrifying. Like it's compared being, feeling lonely is compared to like smoking a bunch of cigarettes every day. And I'm like, holy crap. Like what can physically happen to us?
- [23:53]
Noah Michaelson
Yeah, basically. Yeah. The quote he has is pretty hard hitting. It says, you know, the mortality rate related to loneliness is worse than obesity or smoking 15 cigarettes a day, which is 3/4 of the pack It's a lot of cigarettes. You know, we still tell people, please don't smoke as well. But it's also a good idea to watch your social functioning and how important that is. We understand that loneliness can actually increase the levels of stress hormone cortisol in our blood. We know that people who are lonely have sort of dysregulated or weaker immune responses. So, for example, if you're more lonely, you would have a lower response to like a vaccine, for example. You wouldn't mount as much immune reaction. People who are lonely also have higher levels of inflammation. So lose is linked with a lot of cardiovascular disease, metabolic syndrome, sedentary lifestyles. Lots of negative of things and outcomes are associated with loneliness. But, you know, it's both lifestyle and loneliness itself that's terrifying.
- [24:57]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I know.
- [24:58]
Dr. Ellen Lee
I would love for you to talk to us about loneliness for younger people. I read this crazy article and it stayed with me. This is probably eight or ten years ago. It was definitely before the pandemic. And they asked kids who were in high school what they'd done during summer vacation. And they told the reporter, you know, well, we just hung out. And they were like, well, no, like, did you guys play video games? Did you go to the mall? And they were like, oh, no, no, no, no. Like, I was in my room and I texted my friends and they were in their rooms and they texted me back. And that was so. And I am turning into one of those people who's like, well, when I was a kid, like, I know I sound like such a grandpa, but that stopped me in my tracks. The fact that these kids in the same city before COVID weren't even hanging out. What do we know about loneliness in adolescents and teenagers?
- [25:42]
Noah Michaelson
It does seem that people are feeling more lonely than they used to. So kids are definitely seeming to be more on their phones. Maybe they have less. Less social interactions, but maybe also have less social skill building because they do so many things virtually. And like you said, it seems like there's less free time for kids these days just to hang out. Or, you know, like, we have the same sort of joke where, you know, you would just leave the house in the morning on your bikes and would just come dinner. Right? You would be free to roam the neighborhood. And we're getting more worried, I feel like. And I should put a big disclaimer, I'm a geriatric psychiatrist. I don't treat children on purpose. But. But kids are more scheduled. They're given less freedom or less time for creativity. And I do think it's also impacting their social interactions and the quality of their social relationships. So I think it's a big problem. And how we address that has to be more systemic. We have to think about it at schools, at earlier levels, when they go to college, how does that impact them and then get them ready for adulthood and what that's going to be like, Especially if they're going to be in this hybrid world of work and virtual remote work, things like that.
- [26:56]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
We have one more doom and gloom before we start fixing our lives. What is going on with loneliness and straight men? Noah read somewhere that one in five men have no close friends, which is devastating. What is happening here?
- [27:08]
Dr. Ellen Lee
It seems really scary.
- [27:10]
Noah Michaelson
Not exactly sure why things are worse than they used to be. Because when you look at the reasons behind it, it seems like it's all related to sort of traditional masculinity. Like, men are allowed to be vulnerable. Men are not allowed to ask for help. And, you know, you need that in order to build a relationship. You need to build trust. You need to, like, sort of open yourself up a little bit to build strong relationships. I'm not sure if it's because things are virtual more. And so maybe it's harder to build those things, but. But it does seem that men have fewer friends than ever before, and their social networks are really small. And the thing that worries me is if they're relatively relying only on a partner.
- [27:48]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [27:50]
Noah Michaelson
What do you do? Right.
- [27:51]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah. I had a friend, and she just told me that her partner, who was a straight guy, one of his friends, was going through a breakup, I think, or someone died. And he said to her, I don't know what I should do. And she said, well, call him and ask him if he wants to talk about it. And he said, okay. And then she could overhear them in the other room, and they talked for, like, an hour, and it was great. But she was like, he didn't even know how to take that first step.
- [28:14]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I know.
- [28:15]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Or what to do. And I was, yeah, that is. That is really sad.
- [28:18]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, I think it's like that traditional, like, you know, cockroach of masculinity that you're, like, not supposed to even appear vulnerable.
- [28:26]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah.
- [28:26]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It needs to go away. Let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back.
- [28:35]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere, and boom, you realize you're missing a part. It's okay, because, you know, whatever it.
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Is, it's on ebay. They've got everything.
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Dr. Ellen Lee
Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes, whatever you need.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
And it's guaranteed to fit.
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Dr. Ellen Lee
Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you ordered the right thing. All the parts you need at prices you'll love.
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Noah Michaelson
Guaranteed to fit every time.
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Dr. Ellen Lee
Ebay Things people love this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?
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Dr. Ellen Lee
Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Home and auto policies.
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Dr. Ellen Lee
Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.
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Noah Michaelson
Potential savings will vary.
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Dr. Ellen Lee
Not available in all states.
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Noah Michaelson
My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.
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Dr. Ellen Lee
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Dr. Ellen Lee
That's LinkedIn.com results.
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Noah Michaelson
Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be, to be.
- [30:05]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Welcome back to Am I doing it wrong? How can we prevent and soothe loneliness? Like, just, I'm thinking about building community the way Noah and I have our friendship appointments. But like, tell us what we should be doing because we are one degree away from loneliness.
- [30:21]
Noah Michaelson
You know, I think having a better social network is definitely part of it, but the other side of it is trying to understand what it is you want. Like I said, there's sort of this multiple layer definition of loneliness. Like, what do you perceive? What do you want? And I think part of it is trying to make social interactions less stressful. Like take away the barriers that would make you less likely to reach out. So one big one is social rejection. So fear of being rejected socially. So people will say, well, what if I, you know, try to reach out? Or. And then they, they say no. Like, one example is if you're already feeling lonely, you're gonna be more likely to think that you're being rejected. So if you're feeling lonely and you walk into work and you say hi to someone and they don't respond, they may be more likely, if you're lonely, you might be likely to think, oh my goodness, they don't like me, they're upset with me, what did I do? Versus if you're not lonely, you might feel like, oh, they just didn't see me, or they're having a rough day. You're going to interpret things differently. And so one thought Is finding ways to reframe those sort of what we call negative social cognitions can be really helpful to sort of rethink about how to sort of prime yourself for a good social interaction. One other big one is altruism. So reaching out to help someone is. You're sort of automatically setting yourself up to have a positive social interaction if you're reaching out in sort of like a helpful way or if you're offering to help someone. And so that can also be a very positive way to start. But it also is really fulfilling. Feels kind of very meaningful and purposeful to try to help people. So things like that can be a good other way to start. You know, if it's beyond just I don't have enough friends and I just need more friends and things will be better. It might be something more sort of of underline, something more mechanistic behind it.
- [32:08]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I love that. I think the altruism thing is very underrated and it's also, this is weird to say, but it's like very self serving. Also, like, I find my favorite way to help people is to like come over and play with their kids. My friends who have kids and it is so joyful for me. No one says no to me because they're like, God, please, like one hour away. Like, absolutely. Some of my friends have little kids. We have the best time. We're playing Hulk. I'm a big kid and it feel. I help, I feel better. It's like, figure out what you have to offer. Right. Like what do we have to offer?
- [32:41]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah, I love that. I also do love the idea of sort of splitting this into two different thought categories where. Yeah, like one is the practical. So how are you gonna find more people, more connections? Are you gonna volunteer? Are you going to join a book club? Are you just gonna put yourself in places that you're gonna maybe have more opportunities? And then the second, like you were saying, Dr. Lee too is just more of a. The way you're thinking about things, the way that you're approaching the world, the way you're thinking about your connections to that also having that foundation seems really important.
- [33:13]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [33:13]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Changing the way that you think about your interactions will change the way that you have your interactions.
- [33:18]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Probably, yeah.
- [33:19]
Dr. Ellen Lee
When it comes to combating loneliness as we get older, do you have thoughts about that? Is it going to be different when you're 20 versus when you're 60?
- [33:27]
Noah Michaelson
Offhand, I would say no.
- [33:28]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Right.
- [33:29]
Noah Michaelson
We still have to do the same things. You still have to cultivate relationships. Like I usually say, have as diverse of a social network as you can. So it's kind of like, don't put all your eggs in one basket. Make sure you have friends from work, friends from Pilates class, if you're into that, you know, friends from book club, you know, and trying to have, as you know, many different ways for your social outlets to happen are important. And then cultivating all of those, like, you have to nurture it, you have to water it, you have to feed it to make sure that you're putting in the time and the effort. And like I said, if issues arise, make sure you actually confront it. Don't just let them fester and let the relationship wither. I think in the 60s, one thing that becomes tough is maybe there are fewer natural opportunities. Right. Like in the 20s, you go to work, you. You know, if everyone's single, everyone's still looking for more friends. People have more time. And when you're in your 60s, people may have a lot of sort of competing obligations. People often say it's harder to make friends after you're 30 or 40. The age gets changing. You know, people are already in relationships. They have family obligations, they're busier. So you might have to schedule things. So I would say probably not. You might just be looking for slightly different things or, you know, different types of companionship or relationships when you're in your 60s versus in your 20s. You might be more focused on romantic partnerships in your 20s, but. But I would just say the same. The same types of things would probably help.
- [34:51]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah.
- [34:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah. That's kind of cool. That's humbling.
- [34:54]
Dr. Ellen Lee
It is. I'm thinking even, you know, two weeks ago, there is a woman who works in our office, and I see her all the time. And we would sort of say hello to each other. Cause we always see each other. But I've never asked her what her name is. I've never asked her anything about herself. And two weeks ago, I had to say to myself, noah, introduce yourself. And like, let's make this be a real connection.
- [35:15]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [35:15]
Dr. Ellen Lee
And I did, and we had a really great chat. And now when I see her, it's even stronger. You know, I love that, but it's. It's not easy for me. And I think of myself as a social person. Growing up, I was not. You know, I think we've talked in the show before. Like, I was really bullied. And so I was super introverted. And I was scared to talk to people because of what would happen to me. I had to sort of cultivate my relationship with the Outside world. But even Today, as a 46 year old man who feels very outgoing, there are still times when I'm like, I have to literally talk myself into doing it. And I'm always happy that I did.
- [35:50]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes.
- [35:51]
Dr. Ellen Lee
You know?
- [35:51]
Noah Michaelson
Yeah.
- [35:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And you're such a lovely person to know. Like, I feel like you're doing everyone, you know a solid by being like, I try.
- [35:58]
Dr. Ellen Lee
But I think even if it's someone like me who does, who is naturally outgoing at this point, there are so many people who are not. And so I get why it's hard for people to make these connections. Just saying hello to someone when they pass by you at the office.
- [36:09]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [36:10]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Can be hard for a lot of people.
- [36:12]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [36:12]
Dr. Ellen Lee
But I do think that it's worth doing. And even if it's scary, it's like if you see someone go and say hello to them and see what happens.
- [36:20]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I'm, I'm like feeling emotional right now because I like, I totally understand the courage and like what it takes to do that. I feel like at our office too, we work in the same office. I have said hi to people and now it gets to the point where like people that we don't work with, there's hugs. Like I get hugs when I come to the office. Like I'm very emotionally thirsty. Dr. Lee, like a hug for me goes a long way. You know, there's like that oxytocin or like whatever, that really tight platonic hug that's like happening. I don't know. I think oxytocin happens with sex. I'm off on the wrong side, but like whatever. Endorphins, serotonin, like it's so beautiful. But I think there's that thing about like, take the first step.
- [36:56]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah.
- [36:57]
Noah Michaelson
The science backs you up actually. If you get a daily embrace, it actually mediates the relationship between or moderates the relationship between loneliness and mood. So you know, hugs are, hugs are healthy, you know, so good touch, affectionate touch. These are all important things for all of us.
- [37:14]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And I have to say I've been seeing, and speaking of hugs, I've been seeing these really cool compounds on Instagram where people in their 40s and 50s are like buying homes in the same area and living on like family and friend compounds. So there's like they're able to get like the physical relationships. Like it's sometimes like a sister and then like the sister in law and their partner and somebody's kid. And these are happening more. This is actually Calvin, my husband's dream come true. He wants to buy Land and have friends and family live on it, Which I used to laugh at him. I'm like, like. But now I'm like, is that. Isn't that the way to really just have a beautiful future? And I have to say, my parents live in a community with their friends. Like, they just all moved in in the same. We call it the old Brown dorms because they're, like, South Asian and 65, and they party every day.
- [38:05]
Dr. Ellen Lee
I remember Celine Dion did the same thing. She bought, like, a neighborhood. And she bought. I mean, she has billions of dollars, so she can do this. It's a little different. But she bought, like, you know, 12 houses, and the entire neighborhood was just all of her friends and family, and they all lived in this neighborhood.
- [38:18]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I think it's so beautiful. I think it can be done on a budget. Dr. Lee, like, isn't this, like a kind of utopian future? Like, can we do this? I love it.
- [38:25]
Noah Michaelson
I mean, I think that it's just going. What you're doing is you're creating a collectivist subculture within the US which is this individual. And I think you're right. It does work. There are actually, like, culturally themed retirement communities for older adults. Like, I remember seeing one in. In Southern California that's specifically for Chinese American older adults. So that there's no language barrier, there's no cultural barrier. And I think it's a great idea. You know, I think the idea is you can go beyond just sort of your nuclear family and age together and have some intergenerational relationships. I think it's great.
- [39:00]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah. They have a queer one in Philadelphia, too. Especially, again, like, so many queer adults when they age, too, they don't have partners, they don't have kids. They have a lot less of a network or a safety net. And so having these community homes for people who are queer who've had similar, you know, came up at a time when they faced homophobia or transphobia, and they have similar experiences. Really healthy. And of course, the Golden Girls. I mean, the Golden Girls did it before any of us, and we know how well that turned out.
- [39:28]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
They're the template.
- [39:29]
Dr. Ellen Lee
They are the icons of everything.
- [39:32]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I love that.
- [39:33]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Will you talk to us a little bit about how a gratitude practice can help us with loneliness? I would. Was hearing about this. Sounds really interesting.
- [39:39]
Noah Michaelson
Yeah. And I think it sort of goes back to sort of, like I said, the underlying mechanisms of loneliness. So if we think about gratitude, it's about being in the moment. It's about recognizing sort of the things that are going well in your life and the things that you should think beyond yourself. I always think of gratitude as being a way of sort of being self transcendental. So you're not just focusing on your personal pain, your personal issues, you're looking beyond and you're seeing like, like all the sort of the bigger good things in the world. So I think it's great because it, it really fosters self compassion, which I think is like one huge antidote to loneliness is finding ways to sort of stay in the moment, be appreciative of sort of the larger picture of humanity. And it makes a huge difference. It really sort of resets your thinking of social relationships and yourself.
- [40:28]
Dr. Ellen Lee
I love that I started doing a gratitude thing in the morning that I do. And um, you're right. I instantly am thinking about the people in my life that I'm grateful for. And by thinking about those people, I feel more connected to them and more excited to talk to them or see them. So it does seem like it just all sort of works together.
- [40:46]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I, I love gratitude practices. But even more so I have some friends. I don't do this. I have one friend in particular, Chrissy, where she'll like text and be like, thanks for our friendship. I really love hanging out with you. Or like I had such a good time with you and I'm, I'm like, oh my God, what a beautiful thing to vocalize.
- [41:03]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah, that's very sweet.
- [41:04]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I want to do it more.
- [41:05]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Just letting the people. You're thinking about them.
- [41:07]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [41:07]
Dr. Ellen Lee
You know, maybe you don't have to say exactly that, but I think popping up, we talked about this. When I do the friend text roulette where someone. Dr. Lee, sometimes if it's been three or six months, I'll just look in my phone, someone I haven't talked to in that time, and I'll just text them and say, hey, here's what's going on with me. What's up with you? And I love that too. And I love getting those.
- [41:25]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's beautiful.
- [41:26]
Noah Michaelson
I love it.
- [41:27]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I have to ask about something that really actually grinds my gears. In my culture, there's a big emphasis on partnering up your self worth, especially as a woman. For Indian American women. Indian women diminishes if you don't have a partner by 30. It's so terrible. So do we need a partner to feel less isolated scientifically?
- [41:49]
Noah Michaelson
So a lot of loneliness research that is based on huge populations. It's very shallow. We always say it's like a very shallow. Like you can't really Phenotype, the people in it that. Well. And so often people rely on, like, marital status as one very quick way to assess if you're with somebody or with your. If you're not. But. Well, number one, that's not the only way to fulfill emotional intimacy and the things that, you know, really stave off loneliness. So I don't think that's a great proxy. And it tends to sort of oversimplify how people have social. Yes, But I also think that what people are missing is that, you know, there's. If we think of social connection, we think about it in three buckets. The structural where you start with just, do you have people in your life functional is like how you perceive their support or whether or not you feel lonely. And the last bucket is the quality of the relationship. You may be in a marriage, and it may not be that positive for you. You're lonely in the crowd. You feel lonely in a marriage. You know, there are a lot of ways that a relationship can. Can actually have a lot of negatives for that person. So I think you have to think about. It's really, like I said, quality, maybe quantity for some people, but it doesn't seem to matter what nature it is as long as you're getting your needs met. That's kind of the most important part of social functioning.
- [43:03]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
That's what I thought, and I love that.
- [43:05]
Dr. Ellen Lee
That makes so much. I mean, I unfortunately know people in relationships that are not good and they're definitely feeling lonely, you know, maybe. Maybe more lonely. They come home to a house that they don't feel like, like welcome in or that they're not happy to be in.
- [43:17]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And O. I think social constructs provide a lot of illusions for us.
- [43:22]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah.
- [43:22]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [43:23]
Dr. Ellen Lee
When. Dr. Lee, should someone seek help outside of, you know, just talking to a friend, when should they see a professional if they're dealing with these kind of feelings?
- [43:34]
Noah Michaelson
Yeah, I mean, I. I'm such a huge proponent of psychotherapy. I would tell most people that psychotherapy could be helpful for them in some context. But I do think what's really important, though, is like, depression and loneliness are so, so strongly connected. They're definitely distinct. You can be depressed, lonely. It's pretty rare, but you can be lonely and not depressed. But I do think that you can be lonely and that can lead to depression down the line. So I always tell folks, if things are starting to affect your functioning, if you're starting to feel like any of your metabolic issues are happening, you're not eating well, you're not sleeping well, you're feeling more tired. Any of those things are important sort of warning signals that maybe it's starting to move into more of a depression picture. But I always think therapy for all really, I really think so many people could benefit from having sort of a professional to talk to, work out things, or even just help you strategize where to go. And there's short term therapies. There are people in therapy for a long time and you know, there's so many different modalities, so many things could work for each person.
- [44:38]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
You're preaching to the choir.
- [44:41]
Dr. Ellen Lee
We love therapy in whatever form it comes in.
- [44:43]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I'm in therapy more time times than not.
- [44:46]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah, yeah.
- [44:47]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
This is my break from therapy, the podcast, and it's also therapy, weirdly, unless you have any more. Noah, I would love to close with this one. What's one thing you'd ask everyone to add to their lives? To feel more connected to others?
- [45:00]
Dr. Ellen Lee
That's a good one.
- [45:02]
Noah Michaelson
Yeah. So I alluded to this a little bit earlier, but I think it's really about cultivating self compassion. I think self compassion is, like I said, a secret antidote to loneliness. Self compassion is three different things. It's being kinder to yourself. So self kindness instead of self judgment. So you make a mistake, you know, you go a little easier on yourself than you might. Number two is what we call common humanity. The idea is you're not being singled out for suffering, but, you know, we're all part of the bigger picture. And you know, you're sort of like, again, sort of self transcendental. You're part of the bigger thing. And then the last, last part is really about being mindful, like staying in the moment, you know, feeling sort of connected to what's happening in the moment. And I think those three elements, if you can achieve that, it'll make things so much easier for you. Both interactions with other people, but also within yourself. I think it makes it easier for you to navigate, you know, situations where you are working with other people. So I think self compassion is kind of the key. If you, if we could cultivate that throughout our entire society, I think people would feel a lot less lonely. They'd be better partners, better friends.
- [46:10]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I love that. I love that it's a common thread. I feel like with a lot of.
- [46:13]
Dr. Ellen Lee
I talk about it a lot and I think it's easier said than done. It's. There's a reason why we aren't nicer to ourselves. There's so many, you know, outside forces that are saying, don't be nice to yourself.
- [46:22]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [46:23]
Dr. Ellen Lee
But I think you're absolutely right if you have that as the, you know, the foundation.
- [46:27]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [46:28]
Dr. Ellen Lee
It's only up from there.
- [46:29]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And I think supporting your friends and being like, be kinder to yourself.
- [46:33]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah.
- [46:33]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
You know, that, that network. Yeah. But I think I'm just even deflecting even more. Like we have to figure it out how to do it ourselves.
- [46:38]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Yeah.
- [46:39]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [46:40]
Dr. Ellen Lee
This is a Good start, though. Dr. Lee, thank you so much for, for spending the time. I think just talking about this for 45 minutes is a great place to begin.
- [46:48]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I love it. This was so helpful.
- [46:50]
Noah Michaelson
Thanks for having me. This is really fun.
- [46:56]
Dr. Ellen Lee
It's time for better in five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode.
- [47:01]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Number one, fighting loneliness isn't just about surrounding yourself with people. It's about the quality of your connections.
- [47:08]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Number two, clarify what types of relationships you want and you think will serve you best and then work on maintaining those.
- [47:16]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Number three, tech and social media can be a great connector, but often it's the real life interactions that feed us the most.
- [47:23]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Number four, you don't need a partner to fight off loneliness. You can find intimacy and fulfillment in all kinds of relationships.
- [47:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And number five, if you're not sure where to start, practicing self compassion is the best first move.
- [47:37]
Dr. Ellen Lee
So, Raj, after all that, have you been doing loneliness wrong?
- [47:41]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
You know what? I think I'm pretty okay. I feel like I am actively trying to foster a community for the future, for today, all of it. So I feel good about that. But I do think, you know, the things she said about altruism really stuck out to me and self compassion. I do want to be more helpful to others because like I said, it feels good for everyone and I do want to be, be like sweeter and kinder to myself.
- [48:05]
Dr. Ellen Lee
I mean, there's so many benefits to that. You're never going to lose if you're doing either of those things. I just kept thinking about how close we all are to being disconnected from each other. And I don't think it's going to get any better. I think there are so many reasons to feel bad about yourself and about each other right now. And so the more we can do, the more we can talk about it, the more we can think about it. The conversations like this, I think we're going to need more of them as we go forward.
- [48:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I totally agree.
- [48:32]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Until next time. As long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.
- [48:38]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I honestly love you guys.
- [48:41]
Dr. Ellen Lee
Do you have something you think you're doing wrong, email us at amidoing it wronguffpost.com and let us know.
- [48:55]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding Group A, please have your boarding passes ready ready to scan.
- [48:59]
Noah Michaelson
If your phone is cracked old or.
- [49:01]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Was chewed up by your Chihuahua travel.
- [49:03]
Noah Michaelson
Companion, please refrain from holding up the.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Line and instead simply go to Verizon and trade in any phone in any condition from one of their top brands for the new Samsung Galaxy S25 plus with Galaxy AI on Unlimited ultimate and a watch or tap also on them. Service plan required for watch or tap. Trade in and additional terms apply. See verizon.com for details.
- [49:24]
Dr. Ellen Lee
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.
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Raj Panjabi Johnson
Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?
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Dr. Ellen Lee
Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your.
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Home and auto policies.
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Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.
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Noah Michaelson
Potential savings will vary.
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Dr. Ellen Lee
Not available in all states.
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Noah Michaelson
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- [50:23]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Accommodations, arrange trusted luggage transfers and provide a detailed tour pack so you can explore breathtaking landscapes at your own pace. No tour groups, no pressure, just you, your adventure and hassle free logistics. Contours holidays your journey your way. Visit contours.co.uk acast to start planning today.