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- [00:00]
Paige Desorbo
Hey, it's Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. Obviously I love Amazon prime and there's so many different reasons why I am obsessed with it. Not only can you see something on Instagram or TikTok or hear about it on a podcast and think, wow, I need to order that. And then you can order it on prime immediately, but it also just makes your life better because sometimes you forget someone's birthday or a Christmas gift or a Flag day gift. I don't know any type of gift. And you can literally get it so so fast with Prime. Prime just makes your life easier. And it always comes in clutch. Not only is it fast, it's also free delivery. Fast free delivery. It's on Prime.
- [00:41]
Janese
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- [02:35]
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- [02:52]
Ryan Martin
Foreign.
- [03:08]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi Johnson, head of identity content at HuffPost.
- [03:12]
Noah Michelson
And I'm Noah Michelson, head of HuffPost Personal.
- [03:14]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Welcome to Am I Doing It Wrong? The show that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right.
- [03:20]
Noah Michelson
Mm.
- [03:21]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
All right, Noah, I have an interesting one for you.
- [03:24]
Noah Michelson
Okay.
- [03:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Are you managing your emotions wrong?
- [03:28]
Noah Michelson
Absolutely. I'm a cancer. I live in a house with two other cancers, one of whom is a dog. So it's just emotions on top of emotions on top of emotions. I will say. And people are gonna hear this a lot, but I started therapy in January, So it's been 10 months. I love therapy and it's helping me to manage my emotions, but I'm not there. I don't think I'm gonna ever be there. And I would love to know more about how to do it. I guess maybe I should ask, do you think you're bad at it? And also, what does your husband think about you being bad at it?
- [03:59]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I have so many. First, I wanna say you appear to manage your emotions really well from a young.
- [04:04]
Noah Michelson
Thank you.
- [04:04]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes.
- [04:04]
Noah Michelson
It's just a storm inside of here.
- [04:06]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I mean, I totally get it. I'm not an astrology girly, but I'm a scorpio. My husband's a scorpio. So I feel like a stereotype is also a lot of emotions. Yeah, look, I think I have a fairly high emotional intelligence. Like, know what's going on.
- [04:20]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [04:20]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Am I able to react to everything in the most adult, well adjusted way? No. And my husband will confirm. I sometimes want to look at him and be like, panic with me, won't you?
- [04:30]
Noah Michelson
Like, I will he?
- [04:33]
Ryan Martin
No, he won't.
- [04:34]
Noah Michelson
You're left to panic on your own.
- [04:36]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Panic on my own. And I would love to learn to panic less.
- [04:39]
Noah Michelson
I think that's actually probably good, though. You don't need two people panicking.
- [04:42]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
No.
- [04:42]
Noah Michelson
So you need someone who's just going to be like, no, we got this.
- [04:45]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
The sour cream on the burrito.
- [04:46]
Noah Michelson
There you go. Well, this is exciting because we have one of our favorite guests coming back It's Ryan Martin. He is the anger professor. I love that that's his title. He is a psychologist, the dean at the University of Wisconsin Green Bay, and he's the author of many books, including a new one, the one we're going to talk about today. It's called Emotional Hacks.
- [05:07]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, my God, Help me, Ryan.
- [05:10]
Noah Michelson
He's gonna. Okay, Ryan, thank you so much for being here with us.
- [05:16]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, I am thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me.
- [05:19]
Noah Michelson
I want to start right at the beginning. We always say that, but I think it's the best place to start. So what the hell is an emotion and what do they do for us? Why do we need emotions?
- [05:30]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, so that's a big, big question. I'm going to try and answer it as simply as I can. And I will tell you that psychologists actually differ on this a little bit. So the definition I tend to use is we. We think of them as a psychological state that includes physiology, cognitions or thoughts, and then behaviors, or at least action tendencies, like a desire to do something or act in a certain way. And as far as what they do for us, they're actually super critical sources of information. They're one of the ways that your brain alerts you to your circumstances. So they alert you to danger, and that's why you might feel fear. They alert you to unfair treatment, and that's why you might feel anger or loss, and that's why you feel sad and so on. And then they actually provide you with some energy to respond to those. To those circumstances. So the physiological activation you might feel gives you the energy to confront the injustice or to flee from the thing you're afraid of or to seek out, you know, a way to replace that loss.
- [06:47]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Okay. All right. So your new book really does touch on the fact or the reality that we can hack our emotions using science. I'm very interested in this because I feel like, you know, in the words of Ms. Rachel, I have very big emotions. Sometimes I would like to hack them. Please tell me more about that.
- [07:08]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, so the idea around the book is that I think a lot of times people fall into the trap of believing that the best way to change their emotions is through some sort of big change. Right? And they're like, I'll be happy when. Right. I'll be happy when I get a different job, or I'll be happy when I move or am in a relationship or finish school or whatever. And the truth is that a lot of times those big changes aren't actually the key to happiness. They aren't really the key to feeling things differently because. For a couple reasons. One, and probably the biggest reason, is that those big changes actually usually include a lot of stress. Right. So a lot of times those big changes are stress inducing. So ultimately, one of the things I'm trying to convey here is the best way to manage your emotions is through either lots of little changes or a handful of little changes. A really cliched way that people tend to talk about emotions sometimes is you can choose how you feel. Right. You can choose not to be angry, you can choose to be happy or whatever. And I don't actually think that's true, but I do think that you make lots of choices in your day to day life that affect how you feel. And so this book is really about, here are a lot of choices that you can make that will impact your emotions in not necessarily always a positive way, but in a way that you want to impact your emotions.
- [08:42]
Noah Michelson
I love that that resonates. Yeah. And especially the idea. I think so often people do feel like they don't have any agency or they don't have control over their emotions. And so having these. I think there are what, 50 in the book, these little things that you can do that actually do give you some control. But before we get into those, I want to hear you do make some caveats in the book, talking about how we shouldn't always hack our emotions or this doesn't pertain to certain things. So before we sort of jump off the cliff and get into this, what should we know about emotional hacking and maybe some of the areas that we want to steer clear of.
- [09:14]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, I think one of the first things I would say is that the book isn't designed to address serious or significant mental health problems. Right. So when we talk about depression, we talk about post traumatic stress disorder, when we talk about, talk about generalized anxiety, like those are things that should be worked on with a professional. I do think there are things that can, from the book, that practitioners should help people with. And sometimes I actually think that professionals sort of tend to neglect particular areas that we probably could be working on. But that isn't overall the point of the book. So that's one really important caveat is this isn't intended to replace therapy for people. The other big thing, though, is that I do want to acknowledge that not everyone has the privilege of doing all of 50 of these things. And so one of the things I talk about is healthy nutrition. One of the things I talk about is getting a good night's sleep and being able to do those things means that you have access to healthy, nutritious foods. It means you have health, access to a safe, comfortable place to sleep. Not everybody has that, and I'm aware of that. And so I do think it's important to point out that one of the consequences of an unjust society is that it takes a toll on people's mental well being too.
- [10:37]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I think that's really important to note. And we talked a little bit about this the last time you were here, Ryan, but like also how you move through the world and how you're perceived as a woman or as a person of color. This changes really how people react to you. But we'll get more into that and
- [10:53]
Noah Michelson
your emotional, you know, the emotions that you're feeling as well.
- [10:56]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Absolutely. What comes up?
- [10:57]
Noah Michelson
Absolutely.
- [10:59]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I love that caveat. And Noah has read the book and I have not yet. I'm so excited to. So I'm learning about this stuff kind of fresh. Tell me about your emotional hack pack that you write about.
- [11:09]
Ryan Martin
Yeah. So I think what I want people to think about is having this toolkit, right. So a whole bunch of emotion hacks that they can use in particular at particular times. And I think the key to managing emotions is understanding that not every tool is right for every job and that what you need in one circumstance might be different than what you need in a different circumstance. And so the idea of an emotional hack pack is that you've essentially got this backpack of hacks that you can use when the time and place strikes.
- [11:48]
Noah Michelson
I think that's one thing we've learned so often on the show, is that there is not one size fits all or one sort of golden answer to anything. And a lot of times having these options that you can choose from, that is an amazing thing to do. It's a holistic approach. It is like people are probably tired of hearing us say that, because we do all the time, but that's just reality.
- [12:06]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's true. And it takes self examination. Right. I think that's what this whole thing is about, that we have to understand ourselves in order to know how to regulate our emotions.
- [12:15]
Noah Michelson
But having 50 of these things laid out before you and then you can say, okay, I know that these seven things or things that I want to work on or that maybe help me. I feel like that is useful.
- [12:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [12:24]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [12:25]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I have a quick question. Is one of the 50, like hyping yourself up, like in situations on TV, like you say, like women sometimes are feeling a type of way in the workplace and then they'll go in the bathroom and be like, I'm a bad bitch. I'm a bad bitch.
- [12:39]
Ryan Martin
Yeah.
- [12:40]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
So is that one of the hacks?
- [12:42]
Ryan Martin
Not specifically I'm a bad bitch, but having a mantra is something that we know is effective. And honestly, one of the things I encourage people to do is to put a lot of thought into what that mantra is, because some are more empowering than others. And sometimes. Sometimes we accidentally, I think, select a mantra that might even be a little bit disempowering when we say things like, it is what it is. You know, that's a form of acceptance that maybe not every circumstance calls for. Maybe you want something that will encourage you to take action in a different way, create change.
- [13:19]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [13:20]
Noah Michelson
Ryan, why does a mantra like that from a scientific standpoint, why does that help us from a psychological. Because I also think it's so easy with something like this, like, emotions to get into this land of, like, influencers, wellness guys, affirmations. Yeah. Where a lot of these people have no actual medical or psychological background, and they're just on the Internet telling people to do things. And I don't know if that's always that useful. So why would something like a mantra actually psychologically or, you know, scientifically be good for us?
- [13:49]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, so. So there's two reasons, and one of them is oddly simple. So researchers actually looked at this question, and all they had people do is utter the phrase one over and over. Not even the phrase, sorry, the word one over and over. And what they found is that when they did that, it helped people essentially focus, and it activated the more positive parts of their brain than if they were to. To not utter a phrase. And they specifically selected the word one because they didn't want anything that had any sort of spiritual element to it. So that's one thing, is that just giving people something to focus on keeps you from focusing on other things. So that's one piece of it. But the other piece here is that your emotions are rooted in part in the stories you tell yourself.
- [14:40]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
That's right.
- [14:41]
Ryan Martin
And so if you are telling yourself, I'm a bad bitch, that's a very different story than something else you could be telling yourself. And so having that week. Yeah. Yes, exactly. So having. Having that mantra or having that phrase that you find empowering in those moments can be really critical that way.
- [15:00]
Noah Michelson
I'm just thinking of the children's book about the train and saying, I think I can. I think I can. And, like, how that was just embedded in at least some people of a certain age's Mind from the beginning. And this idea, like if you think it, you can do it.
- [15:12]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yes. And even just not just encouragement, but safety. I know a lot of yoga instructors, when you go into child's pose, will ask you to say I'm okay. Or like just breathe out and say I'm okay. And it's the story we're telling ourselves that is like, you're safe, right?
- [15:29]
Noah Michelson
You know, making your reality. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
- [15:32]
Ryan Martin
As I was writing this, I started thinking because I actually tended to have one of those more maybe passive mantras. And so I one of the things I changed mine to do the next right thing, which is my way of kind of both embracing some acceptance of I haven't made every right choice up until now, but also acknowledging that I can make the next right choice and giving myself some agency around that and autonomy around that.
- [16:00]
Noah Michelson
I love that feels balanced. Let's get into some of the hacks. Yeah, I want to start with the stimulus hacks. What are those addressing?
- [16:08]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, so anytime we emote, it's sort of a confluence of three different things. There's a stimulus, which is the thing we are responding to. There is our mood at the time of that stimulus. So are we hungry? Are we sleepy? Are we already stressed about something or angry about something? And then there's our interpretation of that stimulus. And so all the hacks are broken down into those categories as well as a few others. So stimulus hacks are basically the choices we make around the stimuli that we encounter in our day to day life. And so there are things, for instance, and the very simple example I use is that I used to watch more horror movies than I do right now. When I do that, I'm inviting a certain amount of anxiety and fear into my life. And that's an obvious example that most people understand. But we actually make lots of choices in our day to day life. How much news we consume, whether or not we watch sporting events. Right. How we engage with our family or our friends or colleagues. All of those are decisions we make that affect our emotional well being. And we can be far more intentional about those decisions than we often are. And it's not just a question of do we do those things, it's a question of how do we do those things. So, you know, we're recording this shortly after Thanksgiving. That's a time where people often feel sort of, I think, forced to spend time with family that they don't necessarily get along with. We can make decisions not just about do I go spend time with my family but how do I do it? Can I let them know in advance? I don't want to talk about politics this year. Can I bring a friend so that I have a trusted person that I can engage with? Can I have a plan to escape if things get uncomfortable or if I don't want to do this, can I find ways to distract myself? Those are all some, what I call stimulus hacks, where we can think about how we're engaging in the world and whether or not we're doing so in a way that is emotionally healthy.
- [18:22]
Noah Michelson
I love that. And I feel like what I'm hearing you say that there's actually two different sort of paths that we can take. One of them is if we have the stimulus that is. Is going to be stressing us out. We think inevitable. Yeah. We're going to figure out how we can react to it in healthier ways. Then there's the other path, which is just maybe trying to avoid the stimulus in the first place. I came up with this mantra, one of mine, when I was in my 20s, and maybe we've talked about this Raj, on the show. I'm not sure. But the idea for me was I was going to all of these events and parties and things that I didn't really want to go to because I felt guilty about not going to them. But then I'd get to the party, and I was like, I don't want to be here. And I was so angry that I was wasting my time. So I came up with this mantra, and it is, you can either have a little bit of guilt or a lot of anger. And now I've stopped going to things that I don't want to go to. I still show up for things where it's really important to someone. Even if I like, I'd rather stay home and watch Netflix, I will go. But if it's like a party that I'm not going to really know anyone, they're not going to notice if I'm there or not. Then I can feel a little guilty about not going, but I'm not going to be there for three hours angry that I'm not going.
- [19:26]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's not going to chip away at your soul. Yeah.
- [19:28]
Noah Michelson
So I just avoided that. That stimulus or that stress in the. In the first place. I'm not there. Finding ways to mitigate it when I'm in the middle of it.
- [19:35]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, it makes sense.
- [19:36]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [19:36]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I love that for you.
- [19:37]
Noah Michelson
Ye. Yeah, I do. I would highly suggest people take that on if they think they can same.
- [19:43]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And, Ryan, you mentioned Inviting fear into your life a little bit, can that also be a good thing in a certain way?
- [19:51]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, there are times. I mean, one of the things I want to be. And this really speaks to the importance of having lots of tools. I want to be careful about the idea of encouraging just avoidance too regularly because avoidance can certainly lead to other kinds of problems.
- [20:06]
Noah Michelson
And so that's a great point.
- [20:08]
Ryan Martin
And so one of the things that I do think is important is that people do need to learn to. And this isn't something I talk about as a stimulus act, but do need to learn to sit with some discomfort sometimes. Yeah, that we need to get maybe a little better at challenging ourselves. Not a lot of discomfort. Not so much that it causes us harm or re. Traumatizes us or anything like that, but enough that we can start to get used to some of that. For me, the most obvious example of this is oftentimes around politics. This is something that I find myself regularly getting angry about and sometimes to a point that it doesn't feel healthy for me anymore to wallow in it too much. But I also know that avoiding all sort of current events wouldn't be healthy for me either. That there's a point at which I need to engage with that sort of thing just to be an informed person and to acknowledge what people are going through and so on. And so I'm trying, always trying to sort of find that balance of exposing myself to things I know are going to make me angry and things that, you know. And while also saying sort of trying to take care of myself.
- [21:21]
Noah Michelson
I think too, like going back to what we talked about in the beginning, like, there's a privilege to some, to being able to avoid some things. And so if you are a white, straight, cisgender man of certain means and you're like, I'm not going to look at the news anymore, like, that's great for you. But people in marginalized communities who are going through all of this, like, they don't just get to tune out when someone's taking their rights away, you know. So I think that that's really important too. Me not going to a dumb birthday party, you know, And I have, I always want to say I have a lot of discomfort in my life. I'm not avoiding discomfort, But I think that's an important point too. I think also in society, culture now, we are taking a lot of whatever routes we can to not have to engage. And that's causing loneliness, that's causing disconnection. So I think saying a little bit of Discomfort, whether that's a social. Social situation, what it is, like that's a good thing too.
- [22:09]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, I totally agree. And I, I'm hearing that that be able to do like, manage both, you know, a little bit of avoidance and, and I think for people with anxiety like myself, I can catastrophize a lot. So a little bit of avoidance is really helpful to me if I can take a little distance, manage to take a little distance sometimes just to reevaluate my relationship with the thing that's upsetting me. Right, right. Super helpful.
- [22:38]
Ryan Martin
Yeah. Well, I'd add too. I mean, this is, this is where again, I think having lots of tools is so important that one of the things we know is. Later on in the book, I'll talk about the importance of having a social network. Right. That your social network is who you can rely on for things or people who can come and help you. Well, having a social network necessarily requires us to get out into the world. World and to engage with people in a really meaningful way. And sometimes that's the thing, I mentioned it because we're talking about loneliness, right. That some of the decisions we make discourage us from. And I see this sometimes with my students. They're really reluctant to want to go out and engage with the world. But then what that means is that they have fewer people they can rely on when they need to rely on people. And so trying to figure out when do I check out and when do I engage is part of sort of developing that emotionally mature understanding.
- [23:37]
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- [25:25]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
and on that same journey, let's talk about what a healthy distraction is when you are feeling a negative emotion. Okay. Because I have a number of distractions that I employ. Some are healthy, some are undoubtedly terrible. Okay. Like, some nights I'll come home and I have read too, like, too much in the news and, like, something's happening and whatever. And I'm like, I would love a scotch right now. Like, just no ice cubes. Just straight to the head. Right? And it not. It, like, numbs you and it does the trick temporarily. Right. I would say a healthier distraction is call my best friend, ask her to remind me about the time that A, B, and C happened. And then we, like, laugh till we cry for five, ten minutes. Tell me some more healthy distractions, because I think most of mine are unhealthy.
- [26:11]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, yeah, yeah. As a, as a general rule, we gotta watch what we eat and drink as part of this for sure. But absolutely. I mean, I love the idea of being able to call a friend and socialize and also remind me of X, Y, or Z, you know, having a show or even, like, short video clips. I actually save on my computer some sort of motivating clips from YouTube that I can just go check out every now and then when I'm feeling down. I recently started coloring. I am. I am not a good artist, but I was. I found that I was having a hard time. My brain doesn't like, rest as much as I want it to. And so one of the things I started doing was I got an adult coloring book, which is not as naughty as it sounds. And I started just doing that for 10 minutes a day as a way of sort of Giving me some. It's kind of like having a mantra. It gives me something to focus on other than work or problems or politics or whatever. And so I think finding those activities, that can be a thing. There's this fascinating study about spending time in nature. Now, we know spending time in nature is good for you. We know it is. It's great for your mental health and great for your emotional well being. However, there's one study that took it a step further and said they had people go spend time in nature and then they had other people go spend time in nature and go bird watching. And what they found is that the people who were bird watching were benefited even more than just spending time in nature. And that's because they were giving themselves something to focus on instead of being in nature. But then still thinking about work, they were thinking about birds. And that focusing on that gave them meant that they got those benefits even more. Now, it doesn't have to be birds. It could be identifying plants, it could be, you know, looking for animals, whatever, that sort of thing. But it gives you something more.
- [28:15]
Noah Michelson
We had this amazing researcher on, named Dakner Keltner, and he was talking to us about wonder, and he talked about wonder walks, and it was the same idea. He had a control group who went on a walk every day, and they just went on a walk, and the other group spent just a couple minutes on the walk looking at something that gave them wonder. And not only did it help them with stress, but it actually lowered inflammation, it lowered pain. And so I think you're absolutely right. It also sounds like you're saying too, Ryan, doing something habitually or having a routine like you're saying you're coloring 10 minutes a day. I do a gratitude thing in the morning every morning. Just these things that maybe sort of help ground us can also be useful.
- [28:57]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that, I mean, there's. There's different ways that you want to use some of those grounding type techniques. One is to just do it regularly, right? Like, so I use coloring as a. As a thing that I just do. Like I said 10 minutes a day. Same thing. I do like a. Like a sleep meditation as I'm falling asleep every night, and I just do that habitually. The other way to use it is when you're hitting an emotional high, right? Like when you are feeling really anxious, when you are feeling really stressed, to say, okay, in these moments, I'm gonna color for 10 minutes as a way of de. Escalating some of that anxiety. Or I'm Going to go through this meditation or I'm going to ground myself. Like, those are all mechanisms you can use either regularly or as needed.
- [29:49]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I feel like pets really help with this.
- [29:51]
Noah Michelson
Absolutely.
- [29:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I mean, I will grab my kitten and be like, time to make mommy feel better. And, like.
- [29:58]
Noah Michelson
And it works. And it works.
- [29:59]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
He's so silly and cute. Yeah. Pets are really. God, if you guys can do it.
- [30:05]
Ryan Martin
I'm convinced my dog knows when I need to pet her, so she comes to me in those moments, and so. Yeah. Which is very nice.
- [30:14]
Noah Michelson
Talk to us a little bit about mood hacks. What are those? And what are some of your favorite mood hacks that you found?
- [30:21]
Ryan Martin
Yeah. So if we think back to that model I was describing before, where we've got the stimulus and then we've got your mood at the time. A big part of managing our emotions is taking good care of ourselves, trying to stay rested when we can, trying to eat right, trying to stay hydrated. There's really interesting research on how just simple dehydration can lead to increased emotional reactivity when you experience stressor. And this is where spending a little bit of time in nature can make a big difference. Engaging with the arts can make a big difference. So going to shows, going to concerts, it's even better if you engage in the creation of art. Right. So if you go to, like, arts and crafts workshops and things like that as a. As a way of taking care of yourself, so that when you do face that stimulus, you're better prepared to deal with it.
- [31:14]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I just have to interrupt real quick because the water thing made me laugh. The hydration thing made me laugh so much, because sometimes I'll be in a real pissy mood, and my partner goes, have you drank water today? And I want to, like, murder him.
- [31:26]
Ryan Martin
Yeah.
- [31:26]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I'm like, what the fuck does that
- [31:28]
Ryan Martin
have to do with anything?
- [31:29]
Noah Michelson
But it sounds like he's got a point. Yeah, it does.
- [31:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Dehydration will make you feel terrible.
- [31:34]
Ryan Martin
Yeah. This is why you need to do that stuff in advance, because if somebody tells you that in the moment, it's sort of like having someone say, calm down. Right. It's not gonna work.
- [31:44]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I hate when he's right.
- [31:46]
Noah Michelson
What about exercise, Ryan? How does that affect our moods? I'm assuming it's good, right?
- [31:52]
Ryan Martin
Yes. So it is mostly good. There is one caveat where I'm going to say, it is not good, and we'll get to that in a second. So. But as a general rule, exercise is great. And frankly, it is something that when we talk about Things that I think therapists should probably be prescribing more regularly. This is one of those. And it doesn't have to be super vigorous exercise. It's just getting moving and it has a whole bunch of benefits. It also has a bunch of indirect benefits because a lot of sometimes when you're exercising it means you're out in nature. Right. So it's got that added piece. Sometimes it means you're socializing. Right. Because you go to a gym or to a club or something like that. So it's got these additional indirect benefits that it brings along with it. We know that people who exercise and we know this because just as recently as 20, 23, there's a big study that's done looking at basically every published article out there on exercise and mood or emotions. And they found that exercise led to overall emotional well being, higher self esteem, confidence, just a whole bunch of positive outcomes. The caveat here is that now all of that research looks at people who exercise. It's. And is it, does it help them when they sort of experience negative events? That's different from I'm feeling angry right now, so I'm going to go to the gym to work it off. And that we actually find. There's a lot of research that says that trying to manage your anger or fear through exercise doesn't necessarily work very well.
- [33:37]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh wow.
- [33:38]
Ryan Martin
Again, it's going to depend a little bit on your goal. But if your goal is to de. Escalate. Right. If your goal is to bring that anger down or that fear down.
- [33:48]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Regulate. Yeah.
- [33:50]
Ryan Martin
Then going to a place and increasing your heart rate isn't necessarily what you need. What you need is to do the opposite of that is to deep breathe. It's to bring that down. And so again, that's why the goal piece matters. There might be times where that isn't the goal, where the goal isn't necessarily to, to decrease, to regulate that way. Now where this gets a little bit nuanced is there are some forms of exercise because they don't necessarily increase heart rate in a significant way, like going for a walk, things like that. Those forms of exercise are probably going to be fine and be good for you in those moments. It's really the vigorous stuff that tends to lead to keeping those angry thoughts and angry feelings at the top of mind.
- [34:42]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, I could see that. That makes sense. I feel like gentle yoga makes you want to like hug the world. It's different than like what, like boxing? You know what I'm saying?
- [34:52]
Ryan Martin
Yes, that's exactly it. Is like things like yoga are probably going to be great. Going for a walk is going to be great. Boxing, going for a run. Those types of things are less likely to work. They feel good though, so people sometimes want to do them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they help bring the anger down.
- [35:09]
Noah Michelson
What about managing stress? What are some hacks that you have for that? I think we all need that right now.
- [35:15]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, we do.
- [35:16]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, that's a really important one. And I do think that a lot of the things that I talk about just throughout the book are going to be helpful when it comes to managing stress. I get this question a lot about are we angrier now than we once were? And I think the truth is that we probably are, though that's a complicated question. And I think that if we are, one of the big reasons is because we're also under a lot more stress than we once were. And I think that what happens is that when we are stressed out, we only have so much capacity to feel kind of overwhelmed. And when we face a negative event, we're just more likely to lose it when we're already feeling stressed about things. So a lot of the things we've been talking about, about finding ways to ground yourself, about exercising, taking good care of yourself, those are all things that I think are really helpful when it comes to finding ways to manage stress and doing what you can in those areas, including the stories you tell yourself and how you talk to yourself, all of those things are going to be really critical in decreasing that.
- [36:25]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Can you tell me what an interpretation hack is?
- [36:29]
Ryan Martin
Yes. So when you think about again, those three sort of core areas, we have the stimulus, our mood at the time, a big piece of this is how we interpret that stimulus. And so how do we decide what it means to us? And so this is where you mentioned, where Raj, you mentioned catastrophizing before. Catastrophizing is a form of interpretation. Right. And you've decided, hey, this thing is going to ruin my day, it's going to ruin my week, it's going to my life. Your life. Exactly. So an interpretation hack is when we seek to have a realistic understanding. Is this thing that's happened really catastrophic? If it is, then by all means we should treat it as such. Is it a mild nuisance? And trying to evaluate that. And there's actually quite a few of these people engage in things like self directed shoulds, which means I make all these decisions about how I things I should do in my day to day life. Another one of these is Labeling. We have a tendency to label the people and the circumstances around us in these negative, maladaptive ways. And when we do that, we're now responding to the label. So if I call another driver a total idiot now, I'm thinking of them as a total idiot instead of just a person out there who made a mistake. Right. And. And that. That changes how I respond to them in the situation.
- [38:02]
Noah Michelson
Can I just tell you? This happened to me a couple weeks ago. I was dealing with a woman from Con Edison. They had overcharged me, and I had to file a complaint with the State of New York. And she was assigned to my case. And she kept screwing things up. Like, the first time, she called, and she had my phone number wrong, so she hadn't done the research yet. The next time, she had the wrong address. And she finally called back and said, you know what? I think I can get this money discharged. And I was so happy. And I went in the other room to tell Benji what had happened, and I was like, she's gonna get rid of the money, but she's such an idiot. Like, she kept getting things wrong. I come back to my office, and I had not hung up the phone.
- [38:41]
Ryan Martin
Oh.
- [38:42]
Noah Michelson
And she said I was still there. And so I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, thanks. And she's like, I'll call you back and let you know for sure. She calls me back and she tells me, I got your money discharged. And then she said, I just want you to know that I heard what you said.
- [38:56]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Oh, my God.
- [38:57]
Noah Michelson
I wanted to melt into the floor.
- [39:00]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
We forget that everyone's a human.
- [39:03]
Noah Michelson
Exactly. And she said it wasn't my fault. I had been provided the wrong information. And I was like, that doesn't even matter. Like, I shouldn't have said that. And I was so sorry that you heard that. But since then, I've been thinking about it, and, like, what you just said, Ryan. Like, the idea of, like, how we label people or how we label things and is how we see them. And that also then, is how we interact with them. That's how we go about our day. And, like, it seems so simple, but just giving people a little more grace or just not seeing them in a certain way.
- [39:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's hard.
- [39:32]
Noah Michelson
Changes everything else. Yeah, it's really hard to do. But if we can do it, I think it's revolutionary.
- [39:36]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I know, but we're, like, wrapped up in a blanket of our own angst sometimes.
- [39:41]
Noah Michelson
Yeah. But I also think we're also very quick to do that, to label things or label People in that way. And so that was such a wake up call for me. I'm sorry, Ms. Davis, wherever you are, if you're listening, like, I apologize again.
- [39:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
But no, I make mistakes. And I also. You think about, you know, if it were you, like, yeah, yeah.
- [39:56]
Noah Michelson
But hopefully we learn from them. And I have. I have been trying to be better in the last couple weeks.
- [40:00]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I trust that.
- [40:01]
Noah Michelson
So the other thing I was thinking about too, Ryan, when you said, you know, these questions that, you know, we can ask, like the should questions. Another question that my first therapist 25 years ago made me ask myself was, what's the worst thing that would happen if this happened? And she made me actually walk through that. So if I was catastrophizing, she would say, okay, but what's the worst thing? And usually I wasn't gonna die or someone I loved wasn't gonna die. What are some other questions that we can ask ourselves when we're dealing with emotions that can maybe help us sort of take things down a notch?
- [40:32]
Ryan Martin
You know, there's a couple things I like to say here. One of those is I really think this has been really helpful to me. One of the things that I've done is, and this is a little deep, but is to unpack some of my core beliefs. Like, what are the things? Because my beliefs about myself or about the world, they serve as a lens by which everything is filtered through. And so I'm going to give you an example actually from this morning. So I tend to. One of my core beliefs is just rooted in my DNA, is that I am super scared of being a burden to people. I think about it a lot. I don't want to. I don't like when I slow other people down. I don't like when I interfere with other people's progress. And this is like, this gets in me in big ways. Like, I think about the future and when I'm older and will I be able to, you know, will other people have to take care of me? And like, that stuff scares me, but even in small ways. And so this morning, dropping my son off at school, I pull over to get him out and he is not ready to get out of the car yet, right? And I don't know if you've ever been in a school drop off, but it is like the wild west, right?
- [41:39]
Noah Michelson
It's the city.
- [41:41]
Ryan Martin
And so I had this sort of freak out moment where I was like, buddy, what are you doing? You gotta be ready to get out of the car. Like, there's other people waiting on Us. So being able to acknowledge my sort of core belief in that moment and realize that, like, hey, we're really talking about 30 seconds, right? Nobody in this line has such an important life that 30 seconds is that critical. It's okay to enjoy this moment with your son, to help him get off and start his school day. And taking a moment to, like, evaluate and to recognize where that was coming from for me and where that, like, that anxiety comes from is a good way to think through some of these interpretation hacks. Right. Is to understand, okay, so why is this such a thing for me? This is when we go back to what our emotions do for us. One of the things they do is they tell us what's important to us, what's really important to us, and we can sometimes evaluate whether or not that's what we want to be important to us. One of the questions I can ask myself in that moment is, why am I prioritizing the person behind me getting through this line quickly? Why am I putting that over having a nice goodbye with my son in the morning as he goes off to school? And. And that's a. Like, a real question that I've gotta. That I've gotta interrogate if I want to have that kind of healthy, emotional life.
- [43:14]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I have a question. Can you actually change your behavior, not your core beliefs, but your behavior, if you analyze that and act on it? Because I can relate. I have things that I'm aware of about myself, and I know they're happening, and I want to be like, Raj, this doesn't have to be who we are.
- [43:33]
Ryan Martin
I think you can. And I think it actually comes back to something we talked about earlier, which is the stories we tell ourselves. And a big piece of this is making sure the story we're telling ourselves is one that is accurate, but is also a story about who we truly are versus who we want to be. And trying to shift that over time. And, like, I don't want to be someone who is so anxious about being a burden that I fail to engage in my actual current life.
- [44:07]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Right.
- [44:07]
Ryan Martin
I don't want to be that way. And so it takes me reminding myself in that moment, hey, this is you. This is the old you. Like, you don't want to be that way. You want to be the person who is having a nice goodbye with their.
- [44:21]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And you're not stuffed.
- [44:22]
Ryan Martin
Yep.
- [44:23]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [44:24]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Okay.
- [44:24]
Noah Michelson
I mean, I feel bad for our listeners. They're gonna hear this all the time. Because I started therapy since we. We, you know, since we last had our last season. And I Think therapy's so good. I love it.
- [44:33]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's my favorite.
- [44:34]
Noah Michelson
But I've learned in therapy already, even just like, yeah, I will have those moments, and I will even say now I'm not at a place yet where I can feel in the moment that I'm not doing the right thing, but I can't stop it from happening.
- [44:45]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Totally.
- [44:45]
Noah Michelson
And my therapist is like, that's fine. The fact that you're even recognizing that feeling, that is the next step, because eight months ago, you didn't even recognize that. You just were just going through it. And so I think we can. Raj. I think it's just a lot of repetition, practice, and acknowledging what's happening in the moment.
- [45:03]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [45:03]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [45:03]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
A plus for you, though.
- [45:04]
Noah Michelson
I feel good about. I mean, like I said, I'm gonna be insufferable, but I'm so happy about it. I'm so happy about it.
- [45:10]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I'm here for this journey.
- [45:11]
Noah Michelson
Thank you.
- [45:12]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I talked about my best calling, my bestie. How can finding community and social engagement help us regulate our emotions?
- [45:20]
Ryan Martin
Yeah. Our community is so important to us for, honestly, a couple different reasons. One is those are people we can rely on for sort of specific tasks in our life. And I don't know, maybe that isn't the nicest way of thinking about our friends. But at the same time, like, you know, if you've got friends that you can turn to when your car breaks down, when you're struggling, struggling to fix something and need some help or help you move, that's probably the best example is who can you call on for that stuff that makes your life easier. And also when you are asked for those things and you provide those services to a friend, it actually builds your own self esteem and helps you feel better about things. So remember that when you ask someone to help you move, what you're really doing is building their self esteem.
- [46:15]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
No, it's really true. If someone. If one of my friends asked me to come to a dental or medical appointment with them, I feel like I have a cape, like I'm a superhero. And I feel like I'm doing something wonderful for my friend. And I love my friend. And it's not transactional. It might look like that.
- [46:30]
Janese
It's not.
- [46:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
It's just making me feel like a whole human.
- [46:34]
Noah Michelson
Absolutely. I will disagree with you though, Ryan. I. I am never going to ask someone to help move. And I'm never. I will never help someone move. I hate when people are like, oh, but we'll get pizza and beer and it'll be fun. It'll be like, you know, and I'm.
- [46:46]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
No, I'm like, you better have lobster pizza.
- [46:49]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, I. I will give you. I will chip in some money for you to get a mover, or I will buy the pizza for you guys, but I can't do it.
- [46:56]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Noah has boundaries.
- [46:57]
Noah Michelson
I do. And they're pretty healthy. Yeah, I was.
- [47:00]
Ryan Martin
I was literally. I was going to end this by asking you if you'd help me move, but now.
- [47:06]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Absolutely, Ryan, I'll help you move.
- [47:07]
Noah Michelson
We have to stay all the way to Wisconsin. It's gonna be a mess.
- [47:11]
Ryan Martin
Yeah, I get that. Yeah, that's fair.
- [47:13]
Noah Michelson
The way to end it, though, I think Raj and I wanna know. We ask this to most of our experts. What is the number one hack that you would say for people to hack their emotions, or what's the number one thing you want people to carry away from this conversation?
- [47:27]
Ryan Martin
I think there's a couple things. One is, I want people to understand the big picture. So one of the first things I talk about in the book is how and why do we feel? How and why do we emote? And I run through a version of. Of what I've described here of, you know, the stimulus, the mood, the interpretation, the feeling, the behaviors, all those things that we engage in. But I think understanding that big picture is really important because once you do, you understand that they're near. I mean, I go through 50, but there are near infinite places that you can intervene anytime you're feeling something. And once you have that sort of big picture, I think it's really empowering to recognize all of the different places and that are. That you can make changes. And so I think ultimately that's the thing I would want people to take from this, is, yeah, there are some. There are lots of specific tools here that you can use, but also just the fact that you have so many tools at your disposal is a big part of this picture.
- [48:28]
Noah Michelson
Open up that hack sack.
- [48:29]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I love that hack.
- [48:30]
Noah Michelson
Start doing some work. Ryan, thank you for this. And I would say, yeah, go get the book. It's gonna be out, if it's not out already, very soon. And we loved having you. Thank you for coming. Come back again, please. We'd love to chat more.
- [48:43]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
This is illuminating. Thank you.
- [48:44]
Ryan Martin
Love talking with you both. Thank you so much. Thy ticket, Lady Jennifer of Coolidge.
- [48:52]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Well, many thanks, good sir. Here is my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop.
- [49:04]
Paige Desorbo
Get it with the times.
- [49:07]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
With the times. You're Playing the lute. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?
- [49:13]
Ryan Martin
Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
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- [50:36]
Noah Michelson
And now it's time for Better in 5. These are your top five takeaways from this episode.
- [50:40]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
All right, number one, emotions are how we understand and interact with the world.
- [50:46]
Noah Michelson
Number two, sometimes it's actually your best bet to avoid a negative stimulus before it creates an emotional issue.
- [50:53]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Number three. But we want to be able to learn to sit with and grow from a little bit of discomfort.
- [50:58]
Noah Michelson
Just a little bit. Number four, our internal narrative and the stories we tell ourselves are crucial to how we regulate our emotions.
- [51:07]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I'm a bad bitch.
- [51:08]
Noah Michelson
Yeah, you are.
- [51:11]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And number five, there are an infinite number of hacks to help manage emotions. Find the ones that work for you and put them in your hack pack.
- [51:20]
Noah Michelson
Okay, Raj, so how are you feeling emotionally right now? And do you think you're going to be better at managing your emotions?
- [51:25]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I feel kind of safe right now. Like, I. I think I feel validated. I really think I've got the mantras down.
- [51:31]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [51:32]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
For the different moods, the different things I need.
- [51:34]
Noah Michelson
You are a bad bitch.
- [51:35]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Bad bitch. And then other times I'm like, I'm safe.
- [51:37]
Janese
I'm okay.
- [51:38]
Noah Michelson
Yeah.
- [51:38]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
I'm not spiraling into the universe. Right. So that part's good. Everything else, I definitely. I need the rest of the hack pack. I do feel like not being able to regulate your emotions affects every aspect of your health. And I want to be a bad bitch into my 90s, so I'm, I'm definitely gonna read the book. What about you?
- [51:56]
Noah Michelson
I love the idea too that there are things you can do before the emotions happen. Like if you're doing sort of your general holistic hygiene, you know, you're working out, you're getting sleep, you're eating well, that's gonna help regulate your emotions right there. But then if you're caught in the middle of the nightmare, there are things you can do as well. I also want to be better about sort of taking a little step back.
- [52:17]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah.
- [52:17]
Noah Michelson
And you know, I love to fire off like an email when I'm angry about something.
- [52:22]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
A stern email.
- [52:23]
Noah Michelson
Yeah. If one comes in, I just respond immediately. Don't do that, Noah. Like, that's a horrible idea. Wait an hour, wait a day.
- [52:31]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
We can all relate to that.
- [52:33]
Noah Michelson
Yeah. So I like these ideas. Like there are questions you can ask yourself. There are all these little things that you can do. Pick one, pick two, and you're probably going to feel better.
- [52:42]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Yeah, yeah. I love feeling better.
- [52:44]
Noah Michelson
We'll see if it actually works. Anyway, as long as there are things to get wrong and God knows there are a lot of them, we're going to be right here to help you do them better.
- [52:54]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Feel good, you guys. Am I Doing it Wrong? Is a co production between HuffPost and Acast.
- [53:00]
Noah Michelson
Our producers are Eve Bishop, Carmen Borca Carrillo and Malia Agudelo.
- [53:05]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Emily Rutter.
- [53:08]
Noah Michelson
Special thanks to HuffPost's head of audience, Abby Williams.
- [53:11]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
Head of video, Will Took, as well
- [53:13]
Noah Michelson
as Kate Palmer, Marta Rodriguez and Terry d'. Angelo.
- [53:16]
Raj Panjabi Johnson
And we're your hosts, Raj Panjabi Johnson and Noah Michelson.
- [53:27]
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Paige Desorbo
Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. Obviously I love Amazon prime and there's so many different reasons why I am obsessed with it. Not only can you see something on Instagram or Tick Tock or hear about it on a podcast and think, wow, I need to order that. And then you can order it on prime immediately, but it also just makes your life better. Because sometimes you forget someone's birthday or Christmas gift or a Flag Day gift, I don't know any type of gift. And you can literally get it so fast with Prime. Prime just makes your life easier. And it always comes in clutch. Not only is it fast, it's also free delivery. Fast. Free delivery. It's on Prime.