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- [00:05]
Christiane Amanpour
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. A historic meeting at the Vatican between Pope Leo and King Charles, the first British monarch to pray with the Pope in 500 years. I speak to religious scholar Christopher Lamb on the symbolism and the scandals shadowing the monarchy. Then a legend of music and style. Style. Grammy winning star Annie Lennox joins me to reflect on her iconic career and her new visual memoir. Also ahead, a disturbing look inside Israel's prisons. Sarah Lee Whitson, executive director at Democracy for the Arab World, speaks with Michelle Martin about allegations of torture and abuse against Palestinian detain. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiana Manpour in London, and we begin with a historic visit to the Vatican where Britain's King Charles and Queen Camilla met with Pope Leo. It is the first time in 500 years a British monarch has prayed with the Pope. The history of division goes back to King Henry viii, who infamously broke with Rome in his desperation to divorce his first queen, Catherine of Aragon and marry Anne Boleyn, whom he then had executed. Today marks a powerful gesture of reconciliation after centuries of conflict between Protestant and Catholic.
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Christopher Lamb
Glory be to the Father and to.
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Michelle Martin
The Son and to the Holy Spirit.
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Christopher Lamb
As it was in the beginning, is.
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Michelle Martin
Now and ever shall be.
- [02:04]
Christiane Amanpour
A symbolic encounter between the heads of the Church of England and the Catholic Church. Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb is the author of the Outsider, Pope Francis and the Battle to Reform the Church. And he's joining me now from Rome. Christopher, welcome to the program. Were you also given you're a scholar of all of this, did it send chills up your spine? Did you, did you sort of, you know, internalize the history of what we're seeing?
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Christopher Lamb
Well, Christiane, yes, it was really extraordinary to witness this. And I really felt like I was seeing, you know, an historical and extraordinary moment. And, you know, it is an amazing turnaround. As you said, 500 years ago, King Henry VIII broke with Rome and established himself as leader of the Church of England. And in the centuries afterwards, the relationship between the papacy and the monarchy was one of conflict, tension and suspicion. The Vatican or the Holy See and the British state only re established relations in 1982. And so to see this moment where a king and a pope, an English king and a pope were praying together in the Sistine Chapel beneath the frescoes of Michelangelo with the Vatican choirs and the royal choirs singing together, it really was an extraordinary moment. And I think also partly this is down to King Charles own personal faith. He seems to have a very strong faith and he is willing to engage with the Catholic Church in a way that no monarch or no British monarch has done in centuries. So it really did feel like an extraordinary moment to witness today.
- [04:00]
Christiane Amanpour
And Christopher, Buckingham palace waived its essential ban on seeing any monarch, any British monarch pray in public. They allowed these pictures. So it was a clear message. And as you said, the King is not only known for his personal faith, but also as sort of an ecumenical activist, if you like, as well. I mean, he believes in interfaith, on the bigger picture of interfaith at a time like today, not just between Catholic and Protestant, but on a bigger picture, you know, Jews, Muslims, Christians in this very, very difficult and turbulent world right now.
- [04:41]
Christopher Lamb
Yes, absolutely. And I think this visit sent a message that divisions and disagreements of the past can be overcome, that they don't have to define the future. I think that's what it was saying today. I mean, the intra church battles have been violent, they've led to deaths, to martyrs. But today was a sign, a symbol that those divisions, however deeply felt, don't have to be, don't have to have the last word. And I think that's what was being communicated very strongly today by Pope Luke Leo and King Charles. Pope Leo is concerned about polarization and division. And his meeting with the King I think shows that dialogue is possible, that it's important to listen, it's important to have an ability to talk to people who you still do have disagreements with. I mean, let's be clear, the Catholic Church and the Church of England and the wider Anglican Communion do have profound differences, particularly when it comes to the ordination of women. For example, the Catholic Church bars the ordination of women, but the Anglican Church does not. And so despite that, though, and this is what a Vatican official emphasized to me, despite the deep disagreements, the visit today shows that those don't have to define the relationship. And I think that's a very powerful message to communicate today.
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Christiane Amanpour
And you mentioned ordaining women, whereas we know Sarah Mulally has recently been appointed Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Anglican Church, just after the King. And that's a first, the first woman to lead the Anglican Church. And as you say, clearly the Catholics don't allow that at the moment. But even though Pope Leo hosted the King and Queen, did this invitation come from Pope Leo? Did it come from Buckingham Palace? Was it something that Pope Francis has set in motion? Do you know what led to it and why it's taken this long, 500 years for this to happen?
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Christopher Lamb
Well, this visit had been planned under Pope Francis, King Charles and Queen Camilla were to undertake a state visit to the Vatican in April. But because Pope Francis got unwell and was hospitalized, it had to be postponed. The king, though, did manage to briefly greet Pope Francis earlier this year when he was undertaking a state visit to Italy. So Pope Leo is the second pope that King Charles has met this year. So this is something that comes from the Francis pontificate, but has been taken up by Leo. I mean, more broadly, in the last, say, 60 years, the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion have been undertaking a dialogue. They've been seeking to work more closely together. They've been trying to resolve doctrinal and other differences that's been going on for the last 60 years. It really began when the Archbishop of Canterbury, Michael Ramsay, the then archbishop, met with Pope Paul VI that then started a dialogue, which in many ways has been the sort of context to what we saw today, which also included King Charles going to The Basilica of St. Paul's Outside the Walls, a very important Roman basilica, where he sat on a chair that had engraved on it that they may be one, which is the motto, really, of the movement to try and bring the Christian churches closer together.
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Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, it's really interesting. And all those little details speak real volumes. I said when we started that you had written a book about Pope Francis, and I understand that you're going to publish next year your book on Pope Leo. So in the time that he's been pontiff, and let's not forget he's American, brought up in South America, is his agenda and where he's headed and where the church is headed becoming clearer?
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Sarah Leah Whitson
Yes.
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Christopher Lamb
I think in the last few weeks, the Leo papacy has really taken off, and I think it is clear that Pope Leo wants to continue with the reforms and the direction that Pope Francis wanted to take. The Catholic Church, whether it comes down to things like protecting the environment, calling out for better treatment of immigrants, but also reforms inside the Catholic Church, which Pope Francis was keen to develop and keen to move forward on. Of course, Leo is the first American pope in history. It's extraordinary that the cardinals chose an American pope. It was previously thought impossible that that would happen. But Leo is also someone who spent many years in Latin America, so he follows on from the first Latin American pope. And his vision of the church is really shaped by his time, his years in Peru. And so he is someone who is very much in line with the Francis vision of the church. Of course, he does have a quite different personality to Francis. Pope Francis was kind of very charismatic pope, a real disruptor, you could say. To the clerical and Vatican establishment, Leo is a more low key individual. He's a bit more process focused. He's perhaps a little more reserved, but he is determined and he clearly wants to build on the vision of the church that Pope Francis articulated and the reforms that he began.
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Annie Lennox
Mm.
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Christiane Amanpour
You know, I'm still thinking also about what you said. Both Pope Francis and Pope Leo showed a willingness to criticize America. And, you know, certainly this president on issues, issues that they, you know, defied the charity that the church is meant to stand for, whether immigration or other such things. Leo doesn't do it in a direct way. Here's what he said recently, addressed to, you know, Trump administration, maybe to the president. Here's what he said.
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Annie Lennox
Someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with the inhuman.
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Michelle Martin
Treatment of immigrants who are in the United States.
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Annie Lennox
I don't know if that's pro life.
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Christiane Amanpour
So in general, addressing what he, I guess, sees as hypocrisy when it comes to this issue.
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Christopher Lamb
Well, I thought those remarks from Leo were very significant because what he was doing there was he was explaining that to be pro life does not simply mean being anti abortion. Now, there are those in the Catholic Church in the United States who want political opposition to abortion to be the front and center priority for the church. And indeed, the bishops of the United States have wanted that. But what Leo was saying in those remarks is that to be pro life means more than just opposing abortion. It's a broader canvas. And his remarks about abortion were also linked to the death penalty. So Pope Francis, during his papacy, changed Catholic teaching to say that the death penalty is inadmissible. That received a backlash from certain conservative Catholics in the United States. And when Leo made those remarks about abortion and the death penalty and immigration, he also has received a lot of criticism from conservative Catholics. But what Leo is doing there is he's saying that you can't just isolate one issue when it comes to Catholic teaching. To defend life means to defend all life. And I think that is going to be his approach, even though it means he is likely to face criticism from some parts of the church and, of course, political opposition from supporters of the president.
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Christiane Amanpour
Well, Christopher Lam, thank you very much indeed. It's really been a very important day, and I'm glad you were there to walk us through it.
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Annie Lennox
Thank you.
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Christiane Amanpour
Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
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Annie Lennox
I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast.
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Michelle Martin
Dr. Elizabeth Rosenthal. I see some things that are hopeful and some things that are not.
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Annie Lennox
We're mostly going to be discussing the US Health care system and how the crisis at the center of the shutdown could impact you.
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Michelle Martin
The question is, will they be addressed before the system just really falls apart?
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Christiane Amanpour
Because I think it's pretty close to doing so.
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Annie Lennox
Listen to Chasing Life Streaming now, wherever you get your podcasts.
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Christiane Amanpour
Next to a Grammy winning star whose voice and style defined a generation, Annie Lennox. From her groundbreaking work with the Eurythmics to her powerful solo career, Lennox has long pushed musical and cultural boundaries.
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Annie Lennox
Sweet dreams are made of the years. Who am I to disagree?
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Christiane Amanpour
And now she's reflecting on that remarkable journey in a new visual memoir called Annie Lennox Retrospective, a collection of photos, lyrics and memories from her extraordinary career. And Annie Lennox is Jo from Los Angeles. How are you?
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Annie Lennox
I'm great, actually. Thank you, Christiane. Really good.
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Christiane Amanpour
This is a really arresting book, in fact. And I was just thinking as I was just reading the introduction and we saw Sweet Dreams and you're all in your suit, your man's suit. You've got the punky, close, cropped orange hair. And you talk about that a lot, that image in your book. Tell me about the style that you just talk about that image because it was quite, you know, cutting edge at the time.
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Annie Lennox
Well, I've actually. Ah, there it is, There it is, there it is. This is the image.
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Christiane Amanpour
This is the image.
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Annie Lennox
And it made the. Yeah, it made the front cover of the book. Because I felt in a way there's something like an arrival point. We had been through so many evolutions as young, aspiring musicians and performers and recording artists. You know, Dave and I, before Eurythmics, were in a band called the Tourists. And we had a little bit of success and we traveled the world and we did all that. And then it kind of came to nothing. So we had to. We wanted to reinvent ourselves. So there'd been, I look on those days as a rehearsal really for what was to come. We didn't know what was to come, but Eurythmics actually broke through in a very big way with Sweet Dreams. And this image is almost like the cumulation of everything that we had learned in a sense, coming through, you know.
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Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. And I want to go back because you mentioned Dave, that is Dave Stewart, who was your partner in Tourists, in Eurythmics, and also your romantic partner for a while. And I was touched. I mean, I read, you know, the blurbs by the pictures, and you said you couldn't imagine not continuing to work with him, even though it was so sad and so difficult to break up. And you did go on to have this incredible professional relationship with somebody who, you know was causing heartbreak as well. Well, both ways.
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Annie Lennox
You can cause heartbreak. There was heartbreak, but no one meant to cause.
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Christiane Amanpour
Yes. Okay.
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Annie Lennox
No, I understand, in a sense. Do you see what I mean?
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Christiane Amanpour
Yes, I do.
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Annie Lennox
Gosh, I think it was like this. There was myself and Dave, and that's one and one, but we made three because Eurythmics was bigger than us, and we knew that. And somehow our purpose was so strong and our vision was so strong that, yeah, we continued. And Sweet Dreams is really, in a way, symbolic of things like the day that this song, Sweet Dreams, was written in the studio. I had thought that was the day I probably was planning to go back to Scotland for good, because I felt like we'd had so much failure as people started in their lives. You have failures, supposed failure, and success. And we'd had a series of failures and some success, and I just thought that was the end of it. And then Sweet Dreams was written on that day. And I think life. It's so symbolic, in a way, of how life can be when you think you're at the end of days, you know, and then something can happen synchronistically that turns it around.
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Christiane Amanpour
Yeah.
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Annie Lennox
There doesn't seem to be any logic in it. Do you know what I mean?
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Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, there is a logic somewhere, but it is. It is amazing that instead of, you know, sort of tossing it in, you actually did the song and it sailed you forth on yet another long, long wave of success. So you've never written a book, You've done all the other cultural stuff that a singer does, but you've never actually written a book.
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Annie Lennox
Right.
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Christiane Amanpour
So why now and why in this format, the visual memoir?
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Annie Lennox
It just came to my awareness that there were thousands of images in the Zeitgeist. You know, when you put. When you take a photograph, let's say, and it's out there on the web, you don't even know who's looking at it when they're looking at it. You don't know. You don't have any control. But they're there nevertheless. So there were roughly about 6,000 images that were in the cloud, and they were all accounted for. And we kind of just pulled down hundreds and put them into categories. And it was like a revisitation of all the things that I personally had been through in terms of being creative, you know, and it was just a moment to reflect on that, because most of the time, as A creative person, you're going on to what's next, you know, And I thought there's so much work behind every single image in this book that people don't know and they don't need to know, but it's there and it represents, in a way for me, definitely, a nostalgia and it represents certain accomplishments and it represents time frames and music as the background of one's life. And I just think of it as a chocolate box that's tied up in a nice bow. And it's like, this is my life, folks. Yeah, partly part of my life is in this book.
- [20:05]
Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, it absolutely is. So, look, I'm a huge David Bowie fan and I have to admit that I often, when I look at some of your photos and including in the book, some of the outfits, some of the positions, some of the boots you choose and you wore, I find it very Bowie. And then I read that you did a. You did a, you know, you performed with him on stage and you called it, I don't know, nerve wracking. You were never so scared in your life. You hope you didn't, you know, screw up and this and that. So I'm just going to play this little bit and then I want to talk to you about it.
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Annie Lennox
Okay. This is how that stands. This is how that stands in.
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Michelle Martin
This is your.
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Christiane Amanpour
I mean, really, that's an amazing. I don't know whether you can see the pictures. You know it, though. I mean, you're wearing the black on your eyes. You're all, you know, white faced and it's really incredible. Did David Bowie know the outfit you were going to wear?
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Annie Lennox
No, he didn't know what I was going to wear, but he did suggest that I get Anthony Price to make me a dress. And dresses are not something I very often wore. So I thought, okay, if it's gonna be a dress and I'm gonna be with David Bowie, I wanted to equal his power, you know. And so this dress came about. It's like, it's almost like metal armor. Although it's material, it's fabric, silver fabric on the top. It's a bit Joan of Arc meets, God knows, like Grace Jones phenomena. Huge crinoline, you know. It was powerful because when I stepped on the stage, he wasn't expecting it at all because we'd be rehearsing together. There's even footage of that somewhere in the Internet with me and him rehearsing together. But it was a completely different setup. When we went to do the performance on stage, it kind of elevated to something I don't know. It was a really, truly special moment for me. I am admittedly a huge David Bowie fan. I don't imagine anybody who wouldn't be. He was just a master. But I was inspired by him, as so many people were, and I just wanted to do something that would kind of be complementary to his power.
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Christiane Amanpour
I'm just gonna say he did look a bit surprised, as you were. That clip. He's looking a little. A little surprised.
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Annie Lennox
So he stepped back there. He was. Yeah, yeah.
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Christiane Amanpour
So now that you're explaining it, I get it. I was like, why is he doing that?
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Annie Lennox
Did you.
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Christiane Amanpour
Did you choreograph that bit that we just saw, or was that all planned between the two of you?
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Annie Lennox
No, no. We never discussed what we would do. And so everything was very spontaneous. And I just had a feeling that I wanted to get closer to him because I was standing a few feet apart from him. But I think, you know, to come together in this sort of cumulative moment, like just spontaneously and hoping that. That he wouldn't be too shocked. I kind of put my arm around his neck. That's what performance is. I mean, you can have things choreographed, for sure, but I think it's that. I think part of the excitement about that is that you actually, in a way, you can't tell what's going to happen. I didn't know what was going to happen. He didn't know what was going to happen. He's like, what the hell is going on?
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Christiane Amanpour
It was good. I mean, it's powerful. And again, in the same look.
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Annie Lennox
Thank you.
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Christiane Amanpour
You know, much has been made of your androgynous look. I don't know whether you were the first to take that look on. Clearly, others have copied it since, or maybe even before, but it was very androgynous, very powerful. The suits, the short hair that we were just talking about. Here's a clip from a video where you look sort of quintessentially feminine.
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Sarah Leah Whitson
It's.
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Christiane Amanpour
There Must Be an Angel, the wonderful song. We're just going to let it play for a little bit. Oh, it's so gorgeous. And some might say it looks pre Raphaelite. So you careened between looks. How did. What were you thinking, for instance, when you went from very severe, two, very soft.
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Annie Lennox
I'm thinking creatively, and I'm thinking, what. Who am I as a performer, you know, with the sweet dreams? This kind of look here, it's about taking some power. I'm not, certainly not the first woman who's ever worn a suit. We have so Many, you know, Marlene Dietrich and Greta Garbo and just so many fantastic women. But I think it was about empowerment. We have to remember those days were in the late 70s and the early 80s. It's a very different time, Christiane. And this is before we were talking gender fluid. I was given the label gender bender, and it was actually quite provocative here in America because people did take some umbrage with it. But for me, I think historically, female performers have often drawn on their male power to actually have that strength and that presence on stage. And I just wanted to break, personally, I just wanted to break with convention and then break it again and become female. So there's always this possibility to keep evolving and keep changing. That's what artistry is about. From my perspective.
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Christiane Amanpour
It's really interesting you put it like that in terms of empowerment. You write in the book, let me get my specs on. Even as I look at these photographs now, I see a particular kind of courage and confidence it takes to look directly into a camera lens like this. And again, I don't know whether we have the picture up, but. But so were you. Did you have to sort of gather your courage or were you naturally courageous and naturally empowered?
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Annie Lennox
Well, it's very interesting because I think as a performer, you do have to gather your courage. I think even yourself, I know you'll identify with this. Just being in front of a camera, it's not something that necessarily comes naturally. So you do have to practice being in front of a camera. And there's not much chance for practice, really, because you're right there. I mean, I'm talking to you now, and, you know, we're going out live, broadcast to millions of people, probably. And I think the more you do of it, the more accustomed you can become to it. And then, yeah, you have to learn how to look at a camera, how to do it, how to. How to stand in front of a camera, how to be in front of a camera. And this is all about performance for me, and having the freedom to go from one Persona to the next. It's a little bit like being an actor, but at the same time, it's more than that, because you're not pretending to be someone else. You're being an aspect of yourself.
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Christiane Amanpour
Yeah. You know, you just mentioned the word practice, et cetera. And I just, again, you know, alighted on one of the pages where you said, you guys with Dave tried a lot of stuff, whether it was outfits or whether it was songs, but you were. You knew what you wanted to be. You Knew the image, you knew the sound, you knew the visuals of what you guys wanted to be, and you were constantly tossing stuff out if it didn't match up.
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Annie Lennox
Yes, yes.
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Christiane Amanpour
It's quite a lot of work.
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Annie Lennox
Yes, we were. I mean, with eurythmics, there was 10 solid years of touring, of writing, of making videos, of writing songs, of doing photo sessions. Just. It was a very, very productive time. And in a way, it kind of. At the end, it kind of does tend to eat up your life. So I can see why a lot of young people who come into the music industry, which will eat you up, because it's very carnivorous, you know, it's a cannibalistic place, the business. And without the right kind of boundaries, you can swiftly become, you know, sort of untethered, let's put it to you like that. And I think longevity is quite a rare thing in the music business game. And for me, it was a question of, I don't want to let this stardom eat me up. I wanted to always be grounded and a person that can go and go to the shops and be normal as well as doing the other thing.
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Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Buy a loaf of bread, Buy a pint of milk. I hear you. I think it's really interesting, you said in the book, or actually in an interview with Vogue, you said, I've got to feel that what I'm wearing tells you something about myself. And then in the book we hear that, you know, your sort of mind works, as you said, back to front. You work backwards, staring at the present, then moving back into the past. Tell me what that means and how it looks and what does it mean for writing a song.
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Annie Lennox
Looking backwards? I think the funny thing is that time marches on and, you know, before we've even blinked our eyes, we're into the future, as it were. And I'm fascinated by history. I'm fascinated by the fact that, you know, our ancestors, and I have my ancestors, by the way. I'm going to show you. My ancestors are here.
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Christiane Amanpour
Those are great pictures from Scotland.
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Annie Lennox
Yeah. Yes, in Scotland. In the northeast of Scotland. And I thought I wanted to start with my maternal line from the past, because it's nothing to do with who I became, and it's. I mean, probably I'm the first woman in the whole of my family that ever stepped foot on a stage, you know, and how hard the women had to work. Most of my family were not wealthy. We were not. We were. When I looked back into my history, people were paupers, you know, and millions of Us were paupers. And it's just you have to remember that there were people that went before you and that without them you wouldn't be here. And how different it is. We're in the technological age. We've come through the industrial time and everything was very, very labor intensive. They didn't have holidays, they didn't have electricity, they didn't have cars, airplanes, phones. And we've adapted to all of that. And you can see it in the Sweet Dreams video that there's some reference to modernity and technology and how we've got the cow there that, you know, is as ancient as days.
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Christiane Amanpour
Yeah, the cow. That's a good picture. Just very, very briefly, are there musical artists who you listen to has your own taste? I mean, obviously it has, I'm sure. But your book is a treasure trove for those of us who grew up on your music. What about the younger generation?
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Annie Lennox
I think it's a very different. The business model, let's say, of the music industry compared to how it was when I started out. It's very, very different. I was rare in the fact that I am female and there were a few singer songwriters. Female singer songwriters there. Now you have thousands. I mean, everybody has the possibility to make music in their bedrooms. You know, with the technology today, you're just working on a computer. It's a very, very different scene. And, I mean, I don't know how I would honestly have fared if I had to be a young musician now, because I think it's very, very hardcore in so many ways. There's so much competition now. We have AI that's coming in. Of course, it's here already. And young musicians are concerned about how are they possibly going to be able to become, you know, future musicians if they can't sustain themselves.
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Christiane Amanpour
Well, it's an amazing story. It's been wonderful having this conversation. And the book is really something to look at and to read as well. Annie Lennox retrospective. Thank you so much. Thank you. And we'll be right back after this short break. The scenes were chaotic last Monday. Nearly 2,000 Palestinians released from Israeli prisons as part of the ceasefire deal that also saw the remaining living Israeli hostages. Finally, freedom. Who are these Palestinians? Why were they detained? Michelle Martin poses these questions to Sarah Lee Whitson, executive director of Dawn Democracy for the Arab World Now. And a warning. This conversation does contain content that some may find distressing.
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Sarah Leah Whitson
Thanks, Christiane. Sarah Lee Whitson, thank you so much for speaking with us.
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Michelle Martin
Thank you for having me.
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Sarah Leah Whitson
We wanted to speak to you because you are a human rights lawyer, your work focuses on the Middle East. In the wake of thei'll call it a deal, the agreement to at least bring a ceasefire to the Gaza war, a lot of attention has been focused on the harrowing conditions that Israeli hostages had been living under. What's also been taking place is that Palestinians who had been held by the Israeli authorities have also been released. And I think at this point about 2,000 prisoners have been released. And I don't know that there has been as much attention on the conditions that they have been living under. So the first thing I wanted to ask you is why were these people detained or arrested to begin with?
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Annie Lennox
Sure.
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Michelle Martin
There was a massive uptick in imprisonment of Palestinians, primarily from Gaza, but also from the West Bank. In the immediate wake of the October 7 attacks, the number of Palestinian detainees held in Israeli military camps or in Israeli prisons more than quintupled. Many of these, most of these from Gaza, were detained under Israel's so called Unlawful Combatants Law, which allows it to detain people outside of the State of Israel on allegations of membership in a terrorist organization. But many are also detained under Israel's Administrative Detention Law, which allows Israel's Defense Minister or military commanders to detain anyone, typically Palestinian, of course, on the basis that they pose a security risk, on the basis of secret evidence that can be renewed indefinitely in perpetuity without the detainee ever even knowing why they're being detained.
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Sarah Leah Whitson
About 1700 of the 2000 people who were released had never been through any kind of a process, a judicial process, Is that right?
- [35:14]
Michelle Martin
That's accurate. Because under the Administrative Detention Law, no one needs to be prosecuted or sentenced in order to remain imprisoned. There are cases of Palestinian detainees who've been held for over a decade under so called administrative detention on the basis of secret evidence that their lawyers never have an opportunity to actually challenge. And in the wake of these, the past two years, detainees have technically had their detention renewed in some kind of a judicial process. But that judicial process has entailed, typically a military judge, so a soldier who has a video call with the detainee lasting in some cases less than two minutes, where the detention is automatically renewed. So there's no actual substantive review or opportunity to appeal or opportunity to defend oneself. For these thousands and thousands of Palestinians who are detained under administrative detention or under the combatant's law, the Unlawful Combatants law, which is even worse because under the lawful combatants law, the burden of proof is on the detainee to prove that they are not a security threat. To Israel, even if they don't know, and may never know the basis on which the secret evidence on which they have been detained.
- [36:38]
Sarah Leah Whitson
I understand that about 1,700 of them were held under these terms that you've been describing, this administrative detention. What about the rest?
- [36:48]
Michelle Martin
So 250 to 300 of those who were exchanged as part of the hostage deal include Palestinians who were convicted by Israeli criminal courts under Israeli criminal law for various offenses, some of whom had life sentences against them for crimes committed against Israelis from decades ago, some of whom had been convicted of lesser offenses, membership in Hamas, a variety of different offenses, some from the West Bank. I believe about 150 of those who were released have been exiled. So not only were they released, but they were forced to leave Palestine completely.
- [37:33]
Sarah Leah Whitson
No Western journalists have been able to enter Gaza since Israel's military campaign began there when the war broke out in October of 2023. So we are now relying on accounts from people who have been released, family members, et cetera. Do you know what were their circumstances like? Who are they?
- [37:51]
Michelle Martin
We know that among the 1,700 released were a handful of children, some women, a few dozen over the age of 60, and so primarily a male population detained under, administered detention and released without any charge ever having been brought against them. So these are people who were never charged with anything. And the reports that we're seeing of people who've come out, and I imagine people are seeing them in the news, is of severe torture, severe abuse, sexual violence, rape, humiliation, degradation, and, you know, virtually very limited access to medical care. The most disturbing, of course, is the recent revelations that among the bodies of Palestinians returned, 135 of them show that they were executed with their hands tied behind their backs after suffering extreme torture. And the images are so graphic that they actually haven't been even posted on the media. But we have the journalists who've seen the images reporting on them.
- [39:01]
Sarah Leah Whitson
And forgive me for. Let's be clear for a minute. When we're talking about torture, what do we mean?
- [39:07]
Michelle Martin
Well, what people have reported and what has been documented are cases of rape and sexual assault. In some cases, using something called a hot rod to penetrate the orifices. The.
- [39:19]
Sarah Leah Whitson
Are you talking about men and women? Are you talking about males as well as women as females?
- [39:24]
Michelle Martin
The reported cases we have of actual rape are of men, but there are cases of sexual assault and sexual violence against women detainees as well. The UN has put out extensive reporting on this. Physicians for Human Rights in Israel has reported on this. Betselem, an Israeli human rights Organization has extensively documented and reported on this. You know, we have been warning about the deteriorating conditions in Israeli Israeli prisons for over a year now since Minister Ben GVIR took over the prison services in Israel. He has proudly announced the drastic new conditions that he's imposed on prisoners, depriving them of food, dramatically limiting their intake of food, limiting their access not only to medical care, but even to water, water, even to electricity, allowing them to shower once a week in many cases, and of course, dramatically restricting their ability to communicate with their family members or even their lawyers.
- [40:29]
Sarah Leah Whitson
Let me jump in for a second and just say in July of 2024, Minister Kvir said on X, the social media platform which is now owned by Elon Musk, quote, one of the highest goals I have set for myself is to worsen the conditions of the terrorists in the prisons and to reduce their rights to the minimum required by law. Now, we reached out to the Israeli Prison Service for comment about the conditions that Palestinians are being held in. We have not heard back as of this moment, as of our conversation, but they did give a statement to the Washington Post last week where they said, quote, all inmates are held according to legal procedures and their rights, including access to medical care and adequate living conditions, are upheld by professionally trained staff, unquote. And Israeli officials told the Associated Press that they follow legal standards for the treatment of prisoners and that any violations by prison personnel are investigated. So I guess I would ask you for your response to those comments.
- [41:35]
Michelle Martin
Well, unfortunately, I don't believe that those claims are credible. Even the head of Israel's Shin Bet Internal Security forces issued a public letter lambasting the prison services and Minister Ben GVIR for the violation of detainee rights in Israeli custody. The fact that over 80 Palestinian prisoners have died in custody, and that fact that Israeli courts are now criminally investigating Israeli prison officials for the death of of 34 of those detainees. The fact that countless human rights organizations have documented the near starvation conditions, which we can see with our own eyes with some of the released Palestinians and their gaunt appearance documenting how much weight they've lost. The fact that the International Committee of the Red Cross has been banned from actually monitoring prison conditions is yet another indication. If Israeli Prison services didn't have anything to hide, they wouldn't be prohibiting even the ICRC from access. Unfortunately, the Minister Ben GVIR and the Israeli Prison Services have, I would say, little to zero credibility in their claims, which are abundantly rebutted by the actual facts.
- [42:58]
Sarah Leah Whitson
As you pointed out, the circumstances under which people have been detained are not necessarily made public. The charges are not made public, or the allegations are not made public. But do you have any sense of the people who remain in detention?
- [43:13]
Michelle Martin
So the estimates of detainees basically over the past two years, so not people with pre existing criminal prosecutions, have ranged from 9,500 to 12,000. And part of the reason for the variance of to the number is that there are hundreds if not thousands of people missing, and we don't actually know what's happened to them. So, for example, the 135 Palestinian bodies that were just exchanged as part of the hostage swap had no names attached to them. They had only numbers. Israelis who had detained them never bothered or are not releasing their actual names. And it's really part of the dehumanization process to reduce human beings to numbers.
- [43:56]
Sarah Leah Whitson
Of the people who remain in detention, do you have any visibility into who they are, what charges there may be against them, or under what circumstances they were detained?
- [44:07]
Michelle Martin
Of those who have been detained, let's just say in the last two years since the October 7 attack in Israel, there have been criminal charges brought under Israeli criminal law against approximately 300 people. I believe these are people who were captured, you know, while committing the crimes and the murders on October 7th. But those are the cases in which there are actual criminal charges. So for the other thousands and thousands of detainees, they're held under two different lawsone is the administrative detention law, and one is the illegal or unlawful combatants law.
- [44:55]
Sarah Leah Whitson
Well, first, I would say Israeli officials say that these detentions are meant to protect against very real and credible security threats. And they point to October 7th as an example of that. Like, how would you respond to that?
- [45:11]
Michelle Martin
Well, I think every time anyone is detained anywhere in the world, it is to prevent further harm. It's because the person is deemed to be a security risk, not just to punish them, but to prevent them from committing future crimes. That is the whole model of incarceration. But there are global rules that apply to every country in the world, including Israel. Israel is not above the law that applies to the United States or to China or to Russia with respect to how detainees may be treated, with respect to their ability to have access to food, water, medical care, access to a lawyer, a right to connect with their family members. And these are all rules that are enshrined very clearly in international law and that Israel has been neglecting for a very long time, but has, you know, completely abandoned in the past two years.
- [46:03]
Sarah Leah Whitson
There are some who will hear this conversation and will say that that's unfortunate. That's even Cruel, it's possibly wrong, but it's rough justice in a way, because Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th. Women, babies, you know, children, you know, kidnapped, people were held in brutal conditions. People were killed under these brutal conditions. People were starved, you know, as Israeli hostages were starved. And Hamas did not conform to any standards of international law or human rights. What would you say to someone who has that point of view?
- [46:48]
Michelle Martin
The point of international law is that it is the law and it is what is going to distinguish law abiding nations, law abiding governments from lawless governments. Because if the governments act as brutally and viciously as the people they are purporting to fight against, it's really just a race to the bottom. And if you look at the response of Israel to the attacks on October 7, I think anyone would be hard pressed to say that Hamas's attack and the horrible murders they committed there were somehow worse than the exponentially more massive and indiscriminate and wide scale destruction of Palestinian lives, which has now exceeded over 60,000. And I'm sure we'll discover exceeds much more than that.
- [47:38]
Sarah Leah Whitson
This isn't like a contest of atrocities here. Is the issue here that Israel as a nation state, as a member of the community of nations, should be held to the same standard as other nation states. Is that the core of the argument?
- [47:54]
Michelle Martin
I think it's absolutely the core of the argument. But this is not just about holding Israel to the same standards of international law. It's about recognizing and starting with the understanding that Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory is unlawful. An International Court of Justice and the UN General assembly have ordered Israel to end its occupation, to withdraw its forces and withdraw its settlers from occupied Palestine. Palestinian territories, occupation, illegal occupation, apartheid rule, these are also crimes. So this is not just about, well, let's meet the standards of the rest of the international community. It's about rightly focusing on the severe Israeli crimes that international courts of justice have ordered be brought to an end.
- [48:40]
Sarah Leah Whitson
Sarah Lee Whitson, thank you so much for joining us.
- [48:44]
Christiane Amanpour
We continue to ask Israeli officials onto the program. And just a note, US Vice President J.D. vance again stated the Trump administration will not allow the Israeli government to annex the occupied West Bank. And finally, a running phenomenon. She's broken multiple records, won 12 world titles, and she's still going at the age of 92. Italian elite sprinter Emma Mazenga refuses to let age slow her down. Training twice a week all year round, Antonia Mortensen traveled to Padua, Italy to find out the secrets of her longevity.
- [49:44]
Antonia Mortensen
Emma madenga is no ordinary 92 year old. She's an Italian elite sprinter who has broken multiple world records. Personal best Born in 1933, Emma made headlines when she broke the indoor 200 meter world record in her age group in 2024 with a time of 54,47. She's a real testament that it's never too late to start again. Emma stopped training after college where she ran track. She became a high school teacher, got married, started a family, and then at the age of 53 after a 25 year hiatus, dusted off her running shoes. The nanogenarian's uniqueness attracted the attention of a team of Italian and American scientists and she is now part of an ongoing international study trying to understand how someone her age can not only run, but so fast. So far they found that Mzenga's cardiorespiratory fitness is similar to that of someone in their 50s. And her muscles mitochondria function is as healthy as a 20 year old's.
- [52:43]
Christiane Amanpour
And brava, that's it for now. But we will also leave you with a little more Annie Lennox this time from 2018 when she wowed me by singing right here in the studio. So thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
- [52:56]
Annie Lennox
Well, in these times have changed, you know that it's no longer true. So we're coming out of the kitchen cause there's something we forgot. I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. This week on the podcast Terms of Service what it would be like to understand what animals are saying. Even if it's just our pets. Thanks to artificial intelligence, we might be closer than ever to that reality. So where are we on this journey to communicating with animals? And what could it mean for how we interact with the world around us? Listen to CNN's Terms of Service with me, Claire Duffy. Wherever you get your podcasts.